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Mistletoe Angel
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25 posted 09-07-2005 01:31 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Lee, you're SO right about the ongoing frustration in that the government keeps repeatedly saying "We have a plan in place!", "We have a plan in place!", "We have a plan in place!".

Frankly, it reminds me eeriely of last election season, when Kerry, who I did vote for because he struck me as much more responsible-sounding than Bush and had a goal a least to get our troops out of Iraq, kept saying "I have a plan!", "I have a plan!", "I have a plan!", and how people from all thinktanks were making fun of him/criticizing him for that, in that because Kerry always speaks in such a grandiose, intellectual show-off sort of way, never understood what the plan was simply, thus many couldn't trust him and didn't know what he would offer the American people.

THIS is exactly what's happening right now. This administration is acting very much like Kerry during the debates and campaign tours last year. They keep insisting they "have a plan", yet all they do is seem to stand in front of microphones at press conferences with dry-cleaned suits and Verizon phones in their pockets, making long lists of excuses and they spend more time making excuses that little of "the plan" is ever being mentioned and thus so many are being left stranded in abandonment and confusion out of this.

Whatever that "plan" is, they must understand that it truly is a war zone down there on the gulf, and in grave situations like this, you've got to do more than just say you have a plan. You must ACT the plan, you must BE the plan, you must think and learn on your feet rather than polish the "plan" into second, third, seventeenth drafts.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Mistletoe Angel
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26 posted 09-07-2005 01:57 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

Here's a timeline of the events surrounding Katrina, the government, Bush, Nagin, etc. which I find much more complete then the CNN version. (admittedly this comes from a distinguished left-wing site that has always been most critical of this administration, but because they cite their sources throughout the timeline accordingly, I found it worthy of sharing, and aside from the other opinions the site professes which some of you certainly will not agree with, just take a look at the timeline aside.)

Obviously they haven't updated October 4-early today yet, but I believe they've done a great job putting the sequences of events together in an organized fashion.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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27 posted 09-07-2005 07:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Saturday, August 27

5AM — KATRINA UPGRADED TO CATEGORY 3 HURRICANE [CNN]

GOV. BLANCO ASKS BUSH TO DECLARE FEDERAL STATE OF EMERGENCY IN LOUISIANA: “I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster.”
-------------------------------------------

Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, September 4, 2005; Page A01

Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state’s emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law.
-----------------------------------------

Ok, there you have it, Noah...your distinguished leftist article and the Washington Post....I dare say that much of the leftist article will be in conflict with other news agencies.....wonder why.

yet Bush stays on vacation anyway while eating cake with McCain and playing guitar

That says plenty about your views, Noah.


LeeJ...there is NOTHING you can say that would make me respect you any less. I admire you for speaking up for what you believe in. I will side with Ringo, however, in pointing out you may be accusing Bush of not doing things you don't really know if he did or not. It would add a lot more validity to your argument if you could back the accusations with facts...or anyone's argument, for that matter. Innuendos and accusations may make for interesting reading material But it would be good to have the facts to back them up. There are some points we will never have the facts for, in which case we rely on logical suppositions. Unfortunately, if we are extremely biased our "logical" suppositions always seem to barbeque whoever our biases are against. To say something like "He should have..." without even knowing if he did does not add creditiblilty to your views.

You want answers...I want answers...everybody wants answers. Let's try to get them by speaking of the facts and the things we know for sure and we will have a better chance of getting at the truth. Otherwise we are just mud-slingers, refusing to miss any opportunity to slam. I thank you for your kind response and I will always respect your views and consider you a "very cool" lady.
Alicat
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28 posted 09-07-2005 07:36 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Noah, Noah, Noah....why on earth couldn't the New Orleans Levee Projects, originally started and funded in 1965 after Hurrican Betsy by Congress, have been finished 10 years later, when they were supposed to be finished?  I understand how government projects almost always come in late and way over budget, with the bridge over Lake Pontcherain being one of the few exemptions.  10 years would've been great.  8 years would've been outstanding.  15 years would be acceptable.  40 years and still not finished?

Some thing to keep in mind about the levees.  The ones not finished, part of the remainding 20%, are managed by private contractors with a very healthy budget (state), not by the Army Corps of Engineers (federal).  Want to know what they spent their budget on?  Casinos.  Not levees.  Casinos.  Maybe they thought the investment would pay off in spades, allowing them to finish the project while still lining their pockets even more deeply.

40 FREAKIN YEARS!  2/5 of a century.  That, in and of itself is inexcuseable.  They've been at this one year more than my parents have been married!  We hear so much about President Bush, FEMA, Governor Blanco, Mayor Nevin.  Nothing about Congress which is the Branch which does project funding, nor anything about those private contractors.  Most don't even know about them.  They know about ACE, they've heard about ACE.  Army Corps of Engineers.  Can anyone who's not a N'arlins native name any private levee contractor?  How about a native of Louisiana?  Native of New Orleans?  Theirs are the levees that failed, not the ones created and maintained by ACE.  Levee breach.  Suckers sank a few feet over the prior decades.  Did the ACE ones?  Funny that...they didn't.

Been thinking about other construction projects that ran way over time and billions of dollars over budget and actually could think of a couple.  Sad thing is that none of those projects were for public safety.  Public buildings, public causeways, public parks, public monuments.  Guess what?  None of them actually provide any real protection.  Ooooooh....LEVEES.  Now they provide protection.  And still ain't finished after 40 YEARS!

I know there are many who would love nothing more than to fault President Bush (b. 1946) for the failed levee system.  Never mind the FACT that he was a year out of highschool at age 19 when the federal levee system was started (1965).
Brad
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29 posted 09-07-2005 08:28 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I'm confused.

Bush did call Bianco. She said so in the same press conference where she declared a State of Emergency.

Nagin has also stated that he was in contact with everybody -- he said so on that notorious radio interview.

Mike,

I don't get those two paragraphs. The first one deals with the weekend before Katrina, the second deals with the Friday after Katrina.

I think. Any clarification would be helpful.

At the very least, this power struggle shows the ineptitude of both sides.

Ringo
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30 posted 09-07-2005 08:54 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

OK, Naoh... The Executive Branch of the Government cut Levee spending by 44%... now comes my question:

Was it  44% cut in what was ALREADY being spent or was it a 44% cut in the proposed increase in spending? In case I didn't ask that clearly enough (as I am wont to do) let me give an example:

The federal budget calls for an increase in educational spending of $500 million. The President's new budget drops that increase to $250 million... now the Democrats (Who, as has been noted in an earlier response, APPROVED the budget) begin to scream into any microphone that they can find that the mean old Republicans have cut educational spending by 50%... yet, somehow, the Dept of Ed got an increase in spending.

So, I ask again:
Was the cut in spending a lowered increase, or a cut in the money that was currently being spent?

Ok, so I lied... what happened to the money from the past 40 years???? I realize that this has been asked before, yet I would still be very interested in knowing how people could blame a President for the failures that occurred more than 2/3 of his own lifetime ago. (While we are at it... maybe we can blame him for decreased trade to South East Asia due to the communist take over.) How can we blame the President for not keeping abreast of the disaster when the very people in charge have stated they were talking to him? How can we blame the President for not sending in the troops fast enough when it was UNSAFE for them to go in? How can you blame the President for the Red Cross not reacting fast enought when the Red Cross, as standard procedure, begins setting up the disaster relief team in another state before the event happens (in a case of a hurricane)?
I don't know, maybe my loyalty to the Office, and my personal support of the man is letting my emotions get in the way of the facts... oh, wait... the facts actually support him this time...

When all is said
All is done
Still I live
And carry on-
Quiet Riot

Balladeer
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31 posted 09-07-2005 09:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, Brad, I understand your confusion. My thoughts are why would Blanco ask Bush to declare a federal state of emergency before the hurricane, citing that response was beyond the capabilities of the state and then refuse the federal request to handle the evacuation and law enforcement afterwards? Something sounds strange there to me. There are so many different timelines here and I am confused, too.

Ineptitude on both sides? We have no disagreement there.....

How can we blame the President for not keeping abreast of the disaster when the very people in charge have stated they were talking to him?

Noah, that is one great question for you. You claim Bush was out of touch with the situation and you have the state officials claiming to be in contact with him all the way....are they lying or is it possible Bush put away his cake long enough to put down the guitar and pick up the phone to talk to someone??
Alicat
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32 posted 09-07-2005 09:33 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Ringo, the issue with the Red Cross being denied entry immediately after Katrina made landfall was not a federal decision, but a state decision.  Yes, that's right.  The state Louisiana Department of Homeland Security.  Let me run that by you again.  STATE.  Since so many think all Departments of Homeland Security are the same ones Chertof holds Federally, no wonder the many state Departments of Homeland Security fade into the woodwork.  Thankfully, a prime spokesperson for the American Red Cross clarified and made sure to state that it was a State DHS official who denied entry, not a Federal DHS official.  And that there is a big distinction when you get down to brass tacks: State vs Federal.
ice
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33 posted 09-07-2005 09:41 PM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

­Friend Balladeer

The reports in the Washington Post, and from CNN were not disproved in any media, to my knowledge...Perhaps you have information about why these statements are false...If so, please post it here...

Also:
From all reports in the different medias that I have studied, it seems that Noah is correct in stating...
" yet Bush stays on vacation anyway while eating cake with McCain and playing guitar"

Are you saying that this is false? or do you just not like the tone?

I remember Mr. Bush rushing home from a different vacation not long ago, (theTerry Shivo incident)...It was not an emergency one millionth the size of the Katrina disaster, in my mind.

You said to LeeJ

"I will side with Ringo, however, in pointing out you may be accusing Bush of not doing things you don't really know if he did or not. It would add a lot more validity to your argument if you could back the accusations with facts...or anyone's argument, for that matter."

I agree with you on this one....:-) Remembering that this is the "alley", a place for people to scream out their frustrations...

There are plenty enough substantiated facts around to reveal what Mr. Bush stands for...on this matter and many others...And it is not that I don't like him in general that I say this, which I don't.  I have studied this man, and I don't like what he has done historically, or in the present...what he stands for, and how he goes about getting what he wants.  I don't like the company he keeps, or their agenda, for which he is the mouthpiece.

Here I will state that Mr. Bush had an opportunity to prepare ahead of time for disaster relief, that he did not seize. He could have gotten things in motion by an order(while he was arguing about declaring Martial law with the governor) to his minister (the FEMA head) to get rolling. Perhaps it is the fault of his incompetent appointee, Mr. Brown, who probably also did not know that this law existed, or that he could have used it.

Mr. Brown has had no experience with FEMA, or any other organization that deals with catastrophes. That alone in my mind makes him a very poor choice for the position in the first place, and probably the reason that he did not know the law existed. Apparently neither Mr. Brown, nor  Mr. Bush Knew about this act (law)
If they did, they broke it, and that makes their choice even worse.

The Stafford Act,
provides FEMA officials with specific powers, and (in my mind) states that it can assess  the catastrophic area, assess what assistance the state in crisis needs, start mobilizing that relief, before, and, or while it presents its recommendations to the governor. I suppose that Bush 2 Did not learn from Bush 1's mistake in not enacting this law during Hurricane Andrew in 1992. Say what you like about Clinton, but one thing he did do was hire a competent person to head FEMA. It was important  for him to appoint a person of experience with emergencies and catastrophe...  FEMA was a cabinet level part of the government during his administration, very strong, and well funded.

I believe that if Mr.Bush had followed this rule (law) that the news media would have spread it all over the front page, at least the front page of Fox news, so I am assuming that he did not...
If information exists to counteract my assumption...please show it here.

Here is how part of the law reads, the part that pertains to this thread...
*
Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, as amended by Public Law 106-390, October 30, 2000  

§ 5144. EMERGENCY SUPPORT TEAMS {Sec. 303}

"The President shall form emergency support teams of Federal personnel to be deployed in an area affected by a major disaster or emergency. Such emergency support teams shall assist the Federal coordinating officer in carrying out his responsibilities pursuant to this Act. Upon request of the President, the head of any Federal agency is directed to detail to temporary duty with the emergency support teams on either a reimbursable or nonreimbursable basis, as is determined necessary by the President, such personnel within the administrative jurisdiction of the head of the Federal agency as the President may need or believe to be useful for carrying out the functions of the emergency support teams."

I am not a lawyer, but by reading this, feel that if this was enacted by the president, from his Texas ranch, Whitehouse or anywhere, it would have greatly enhanced my respect for his emergency handling capabilities...

I have said enough for now...

---------------ice
      ><>
­­
­
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34 posted 09-07-2005 10:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

From all reports in the different medias that I have studied, it seems that Noah is correct in stating...
" yet Bush stays on vacation anyway while eating cake with McCain and playing guitar"

Are you saying that this is false? or do you just not like the tone?


Fine, ice. I cannot definitely say that Bush did not eat cake, nor can I say he did not play the guitar. Noah uses these comments in the same vein as saying "Nero fiddled while Rome burned.", Bush as a lazy good-ole boy enjoying his vacation, playing his music and  spooning down his ice cream, uninterested in a small thing like the greatest natural disaster to ever hit the United States, destroying a major city and a large portion of the entire gulf coast, causing loss if life in the thousands, at least.

Do I find that offensive, not to mention inaccurate? Bet your sweet bippy I do....
ice
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35 posted 09-07-2005 10:31 PM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

­Ali- you said-
­­ "Ringo, the issue with the Red Cross being denied entry immediately after Katrina made landfall was not a federal decision, but a state decision.  Yes, that's right.  The state Louisiana Department of Homeland Security."

I am trying to find something to substantiate your claim, Ali..but can only find  this article in a Pittsburgh paper, on the issue. I keep getting mixed up in chain of command matters...Does this mean that the governor, being in charge of the national guard, is responsible for their actions...and so to speak is responsible for keeping the red cross out?
Note that is does not state if the "Homeland Security Department" is state or federal ?
But it does state that FEMA would not allow them to go in...That is most certainly federal, and is Bush's responsibility..but you did say that the red cross was

" denied entry immediately after Katrina made landfall"
That was Monday, and this was in Saturdays paper, so you point of reference was earlier..
Please post where your info came from, I would like to read the transcript...


Saturday, September 03, 2005
By Ann Rodgers, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

"As the National Guard delivered food to the New Orleans convention center yesterday, American Red Cross officials said that federal emergency management authorities would not allow them to do the same.

Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now.

"The Homeland Security Department" has requested and continues to request that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans," said Renita Hosler, spokeswoman for the Red Cross."


­
Local Rebel
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36 posted 09-07-2005 10:47 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well, I saw the video of him playing guitar.

But exactly what does that mean?  Other than that he was playing guitar?

I think that where arguments tend to run off the rails is when they try to make broad generalizations like -- this was an elitist rich president who didn't care about black people.

I can't, under any circumstances, think that anybody in local, state, or federal executive positions didn't care about people dying in New Orleans.

What I find easy to believe, under all circumstances, is that the ball was dropped on the local, state, and federal level and the CYA started immediately at the local, state, and federal level.

I can't understand anybody defending any of these characters.  But, the only ones who work for ME, are Bush, Cheney, Chertoff, Brownie, Rummie -- and that's where I have to focus my stewardship.
Ringo
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37 posted 09-07-2005 10:55 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

"As the National Guard delivered food to the New Orleans convention center yesterday, American Red Cross officials said that federal emergency management authorities would not allow them to do the same.

Other relief agencies say the area is so damaged and dangerous that they doubted they could conduct mass feeding there now.

"The Homeland Security Department" has requested and continues to request that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans," said Renita Hosler, spokeswoman for the Red Cross."


Ice, my friend, you have just given us the proof that I have been screaming about as far as the rescue efforts not happening because it is UNSAFE for the teams to go there. The National Guard is designed to go into harms way... civilian members of the Red Cross, Salvation Army, Catholic Social Services, Lute=heran housae, and others are not.
I believe that would be game, set, and match on the issue of rescue efforts not going quickly enough.
Thank you.

When all is said
All is done
Still I live
And carry on-
Quiet Riot

Alicat
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38 posted 09-07-2005 10:58 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Here ya go, Ice.

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html#4524
Brad
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39 posted 09-07-2005 11:06 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Ali, you beat me to it:
http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html#4524

quote:
Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.



Certainly, safety may have been a factor, but that's not what this is saying.

ice
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40 posted 09-07-2005 11:42 PM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

Ali and Brad
Thanks for the link....too tired to read it tonight, will do so tomorrow..

------------ice
   ><>
Huan Yi
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41 posted 09-08-2005 01:47 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Anyone uncomfortable sending men and women
in harm’s way, (bullets), to force out people who
refuse to leave?  Let’s say there’s a firefight.
How many KIA’s will be too much?
LeeJ
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42 posted 09-08-2005 09:21 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hey Deer, I know your right about backing up my voice with documentation...oh, and thanks so much for the boost of consideration for a sometimes very passionate, over emotional woman...hugs...anyway...as you and many others here, do back up what you say with articles from many highly acclaimed journalists...well, my point is this...I've seen and read the wall street journal make some very false front page accusations & claims, which directly affected me and my job, only later to hide their apologies, deep within on page 13 in very diminutive print...instead of the apology making front page news, after the damage was done...so, as many of you do cut and paste newspaper quotes, respectfully I offer argue, that they are not always accurate, along with accusations, opinions and news casts presented by the media.  We all know, they do cut out what they don’t want you to know or exaggerate, working on the emotions of the public, you know, manipulative stories…to swing people over to their point of view….but…  

Deer, I followed the news of this hurricane from the start of the warnings on the news, and as the hurricane came and went...flipping from CNN to the Weather Channel, to FOX...back and forth all during the first 2 & 3 days...and quite frankly reminding you that...that as the days went by, with still no relief for these people, man, did I take this very personal, screaming over and over, Where IS Our  Government and why aren’t they deploying help?

When I address a situation, in my thoughts, I always think, what would I do and, if I were President (and you all can thank you lucky stars I’m not president )...Upon the first reports of the monster hurricane Katrina hitting the gulf coast, forecasted to hit New Orleans and surrounding areas, I would have immediately phoned the Governor & Mayors setting up conference calls between us and said, "hey guys, this one looks bad!" What are you doing to evacuate"?  "Do you know how many people have no means of transportation as of yet"?  "I don’t care the repercussions we need to evacuate everyone we can, don't you agree, even if this thing doesn’t hit by some grace of God, for now, take any vehicles you can get your hands on and have all residents report to designated areas where buses will transport them out, and if you need more transportation, now’s the time to ask for help from surrounding areas…even if this hurricane by some unseen force of God, does not do the damage we expect, it’s better to be safe then sorry…we can always rebuild, but we can’t bring back lost lives"!  "Lets keep the communication lines opens, report back to me when ever necessary, every hour, if necessary, this must be quick and efficent".  "Presently our mission has to be, to get as many people out of those areas, as possible.  Adding, we have plenty of warning so this can be expedited effectively, don't you think, any ideas or counter ideas?"  

After the fact, while watching the news…my first thought was, OMG, what if that super dome doesn’t hold?  All those people will be crushed?  

Then came the aftermath and for two days, while watching the news, which I’m certain, 80% of the rest of the country was doing, I kept screaming inside, where is help, where is FEMA, where is the Red Cross, where is Bush?  Why isn’t someone taking initiative, taking charge and deploying army equipment in there to get people out...I was shocked and even people at work looked at me like I was invisible and had nothing important to add to the conversation when I asked these same questions?

I mean, how long is it supposed to take to move…not talk about it, but make a call and do whatever necessary?  

It was a take charge situation…and yet, I believe what happened, and this is an assumption…everyone was so afraid of making decision, worried about the repercussions of stepping in and doing something without someone from a higher level, telling them what to do?

I mean, what could the President have been thinking in those 2-3 first and most crucial days…at that point in time, the mayors or the governors, certainly did not have the resources (privy to army & navy equipment, let alone medical supplies, food and water?) to get in there are start a rescue mission immediately.  

What I’ve tried to stress in other forums…leaders need to take a position…make decisions that are not always popular, but are the good for the majority of the people…just like in war…you don’t want a general who is unable to make quick decisions…yanno?  

In this case, and I say this again, everyone who should have been moving promptly without hesitation, was standing around waiting, waiting for what?  

Then, there were reports of New Orleans police, who lost everything, still on the job, with no communication to each other, just simply out there trying to keep doing his job.  

One news man interviewed a police officer…he was in shock, frightened, saying…”I lost my house, everything, but I’m just out here doing what I’m supposed to be doing, trying to help the best I can with no means for communication to anyone, people are looting, breaking into gun stores, liquor stores, this is a recipe for disaster”

That would have been all I needed to hear…immediately I would have deployed the national guards, the army, navy medical ships, amphibians, helicopter rescue teams…setting up mash medical tents….I mean, everyone knew this was a catastrophic event…why does the President have to wait for approval to deploy this rescue, when common sense tells you, everyone down there was under water with no means of communication...and now, asking even more so, What Plan do you have in place if this coutry goes under attack.  I can invision his face now...just like the day he was sitting in elementary school reading a book to the children, and someone came in and whispered in his ear, "We're under attack", God, he just sat there with this dumb grin on his face in a state of shock, not able to move, didn't know what to do, again the man whispered in his ear...and finally our learder got up and was escourted out????

Again, if I were President, without regard for any law, I would have deployed army, navy, coast guard, and issued a state of emergency on T.V. asking everyone is surrounding states to offer whatever they could in the way of shelters and gotten those people out of that stadium.  

Now, a debate may be offered of, oh well, no one could get in there????
We have in our midst resources that can get us in anywhere, anytime, anyhow, so how much different did a few days make, when the news reporters and volunteers got in right away and were helping.  And that I had proof of and saw with my own eyes.

This whole thing in my opinion was botched…which brings another awareness to me….I believe we’ve become a society that is compromising the value of life, from fear of just going in there and getting things done to the best of our ability when it is a life and death situation.

Some of this mentality may be due to law suits and public opinions, not to mention, is there presently in the near future a political agenda, like an election, brother, elections, do get politicians moving then.  

Deer, I know some of you are very brilliant people, with college education...your engineers, song writers, perhaps psychologists, attorneys, with degrees out the gazoo

I cannot express myself with words in writing nearly as astute & intellectually as some of you do, and believe me, sometimes you all leave me awe struck at the blessings you do possess...but also feel, my input sometimes may be foolish, and spoken with emotion, but othertimes, perhaps a tad wise spoken through experience.

nor do I possess the time to research newspaper articles or cut and paste to back up my statements and/or theories.

I’m certainly not always right….but what I do possess is some common sense, and not to be a wise guy, sarcastic or lead you to believe I may be over inflated cuz I don’t believe I am...simply put, I do possess confidence and the ability to know, it doesn’t take an educated monkey to understand the importance of life and to immediately deploy help and get things moving in the blink of an eye.  

I am presently an administrative assistant (secretary) but at one time in my life, I was an office manager for a heavy & highway construction company in Pennsylvania; an office manager in charge of building roads (2 and 4 lanes), up to 100 men, heavy equipment, payroll, state codes, union codes, daily job documentation, testing concrete, finishing concrete, running people to the hospital, calling police, emergency medical teams, etc...and making certain, all materials were on the job and ready to disperse each and every day.  

So I know the valuable asset of time & cost effective planning...and time was certainly of the essence, in the case of this monster, Katrina!  But to no avail, no one moved, everyone simply froze and watched, and watched, while those people down there were screaming, while babies, children and adults were dying, not to mention the rapes!

For 3 days...everyone was afraid to make a decision…to lead, to accomplish saving lives, even if only 10 lives, or 1 life could have been spared, the move to deploy whatever means necessary would have been worth it.  

Lives were lost here people, which is no small matter that can be justifiably excused with smaking someone's hand.  And to me, there is no excuse for anyone in a take charge position as these men were, to abandon the truth or make excuses for.  

If our leaders are not strong, and willing to put his/her life on the line for others, make decision without fear of what the public will think, then all those under him will be the same way as well.  

And so, I state my argument, strictly from what little common sense I own, not to mention, staying abreast with the situation as best I can…

This country has way to many people in leadership positions who should not be there.  Not to mention, everyone today is afraid to say, “Your not doing the job, we need to replace you, nothing personal, but your just not the right person for the position”

Instead, our government, our corporations, are not only hiring consultants which costs millions of dollars, to tell them how to do their jobs, but rewarding bad decisions, bad behavior and unethical actions with excuses, until these people in these positions actually believe and I mean this, they actually believe and delude themselves that they are doing right, when in fact, they are robbing their cohorts, and their companies, the country blind.…and believe me, I do know what I’m talking about.  

So people, I rest my case, you have seen, in my opinion, first hand, the results of what happens when people are in positions they know nothing about...adding a warning, this has become a culture throughout America...

The media for months ahead, will go back and forth with this…not to mention those of us who voted for Bush, we feel an obligation to support him, regardless if he was wrong...b/c if we say he was wrong, we admit we ourselves may have been wrong in our choice of leadership. Why? Because we voted for him...so, in the long run, no body wins, everyone looses, saving face is more important then an admition we are wrong...

It’s so very hard for people to do that today…so what do we do…do we support bad behavior or do we say, yanno, we expected you guys to do your jobs, that’s what your getting paid for, and are drawing a pension for...

We’re not talking about dollar signs here, we’re talking about life...and lives and the ripple effect decisions have made.  

What really disgraces me, is, we don’t fire anyone anymore? There is no fear of loosing your job, anything goes, and if they botch things up, the worst that can happen is, they are given a severance package and sent off with a letter of resignation or retirement.  

No one today has the guts anymore, to say, YOUR FIRED, except Donald Trump…and maybe that’s the funny story or insult to the integrity of the people of this country, behind these so called reality TV shows?  It is reality, or has society retreated to their each and own fantasy of which the wolves have taken advantage of?  I dunno?

Thank you for the opportunity to add to this thread.

And Deer, I think your a pretty awesome guy so, no insult intended to you or anyone else...just venting...I could be wrong, yanno

Respectfully and sincerely
Lee J.

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (09-08-2005 10:15 AM).]

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43 posted 09-08-2005 02:02 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Yes, Balladeer, I as always, despite never understanding your cold hard Teflon reverence of this administration, and our vast disagreements, do always enjoy talking with you because facillitating discussions as this where both views are represented I believe only helps us understand each other more, and helps us seek a greater wisdom of where we're all coming from, and besides that I have always seen you as one with a golden heart and warm sense of humor, even when mischevious, in your poetry and personality! (smiles) So I hope when I continue to passionately challenge your thoughts that you never take it personally, as I merely believe you are greatly misguided, and biased too, but there's never any ego conflict involved!

***

Local Rebel made some strong points earlier, and please be aware I wasn't rushing to develop any baseless formula from the fact he was strumming guitar and eating cake while New Orleans was drowning, such as that Bush doesn't care about black people or poor people. When Kanye West insisted so on NBC, I disagreed with him, still disagree now.

I did address that he did just that, however, because I believe there is a significance to it. This is all about leadership, about trust, about responsibility.

He was warned two days before he went to celebrate McCain's birthday and learn some chords with Mark Wills. He obviously had to have KNOWN that Katrina was a storm to be taken seriously. Homeland Security had to have known that.

This is about a much more, all-encompassing issue in general that stands high above any talking-heads slogan or typical asbestos soundbyte...when help is needed and the leaders of the nation are metaphorically asleep at the wheel..."What's wrong with this picture?"



Don't make excuses like "How could we have known the severity of this hurricane?", don't say you were totally oblivious and in denial of the warnings, that frankly isn't going to fly. I recall Bush and the administration responding swiftly on the spot to previous storms, such as Isabel two years ago:



I absolutely agree with that article from the New Hampshire Union Leader; a true leader would have indeed flew straight there and called for the mobilization of all humanitarian sources available. I had respect for Bush in the weeks following 9/11 because he did just that; after first hearing of the tragic news in the Florida classroom where he was reading "My Pet Goat" to children, he indeed flew there, stood high in New York City and said "The whole world can hear you!". Up until he exploited the tragedy with a call to war with Iraq, I approved of his job, I respected his leadership.

There's no excuse to why Bush couldn't have exhibited that sort of leadership in this tragedy. He was irresponsible, nontrustworthy, and very unpresidential. And doing just that, strumming chords and stuffing his face while there was a cry for help, understandably strikes many as being unsympathetic, non-compassionate.

What kind of leader insists in a press conference that "I think that one of the things that people want us to do here is play a blame game. We've got to solve problems. We're problem solvers. There will be ample time for people to figure out what went right and what went wrong. What I'm interested in is helping save lives.", yet lets his administration spearhead a Rove-led "blame the locals" smear campaign? He just can't keep his story straight.

What kind of leader says that "the results are unacceptable" and "we are not satisfied" yet just won't be specific in saying exactly what results are wrong, what he's directing "we" toward.

It's especially disturbing that many Republicans are now all saying "Hey, no nedd to blame, let's stop the blame game!" yet they're actually saying everyone's to blame but the federal government. It's disturbing that they use little energy to swiftly respond to this disaster which has claimed anywhere from 10,000-40,000 lives, yet they jump right on their feet wasting no time at all to protect themselves selfishly.

It's disturbing that FEMA is sending firefighters, where I'm sure all they want to do is go save lives and perform rescue operations, yet instead they force them to sit around in a Sheraton hotel room in Atlanta telling them to hand out pamphlets with FEMA's phone number on them, and use them as a backdrop for Bush wherever he walks.

But what's distressing most of all about this whole catastrophe is something Pelosi hit right on the head; he's oblivious to the extent of damage Katrina has caused on people's lives, people's trust in the government, and our national security.

Michael Brown and Co. were literally asleep at the wheel in response to this disaster, yet Bush believes nothing went wrong in how the response was carried out, everything went right this week, and so he was completely satisfied with their work.

The fact is, if the federal government responded just the same way again to a future storm or terrorist attack, they just can't defend our country, and they'll be just as late and undeprepared.

What kind of message does that send to the terrorists in the world, which Bush has kept saying on and on and on and on how they're bent on destroying our freedoms and liberties? This type of attitude is just going to make them believe that our country is so incredibly vulnerable, that it's a piece of cake to get in and spread their hate on the innocent here if the government is fully proud of the speed of their response.

Bush just doesn't get the magnitude of what's wrong here. His response only proves that if the government did just what they did this past week and a half in the event of a future possible terrorist attack or, God forbid, biological weapon attack, he and his administration cannot protect us, and due to that, he has damaged many's heart's to ever want to depend or count on the White House to come to the rescue and save the day.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Mysteria
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44 posted 09-08-2005 02:48 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

I have to be honest I have not read all this thread, but did read some of this on this site, and found it interesting.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2005-09-07

For you folks that love to analyze stuff
LeeJ
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45 posted 09-08-2005 03:18 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

hey Sharon, thanks a bunch for this site...I don't always agree with Michael, but there is always good and bad in everyone...and this site is exceptionally informative, not to mention, uplifting.  Here at work, we have an employee, whose father owns an 18 wheeler...and so, we're collecting all the basics for two days and packing them off to affected areas...I'm so overwhelming happy to see all the help this country is giving...

thanks Sharon, thanks very much.
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46 posted 09-08-2005 03:21 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Again, if I were President, without regard for any law, I would have deployed army, navy, coast guard, and issued a state of emergency on T.V. asking everyone is surrounding states to offer whatever they could in the way of shelters and gotten those people out of that stadium.

LeeJ- Had you done so, it would have called more hassle than almost anything else you could have done. You are advocating that the President should have been the leader in this instance, and I do not disagree with you... However, what kind of leadership would it be if you are not following the laws you expect everyone else to follow? President Clinton lied under oath, and was almost removed from office for it. President Nixon was accused of conspiracy to commit a felony (breaking and entering into a governmental office- the DNC headquarters) and conspiracy to obstruct justice (the cover-up) as well as destruction of evidence, and a vast number of things, and was held to account for it, which led to his resignation. With that in mind, why would you, as you put it, ignore the laws and do what you wanted? And had you done so, how could you prosecute those who are ignoring the law in NO right now? They are doing what you have said you would do yourself... ignore the laws you are constitutionally bound to enforce.

I followed the news of this hurricane from the start of the warnings on the news, and as the hurricane came and went...flipping from CNN to the Weather Channel, to FOX...back and forth all during the first 2 & 3 days...and quite frankly reminding you that...that as the days went by, with still no relief for these people, man, did I take this very personal, screaming over and over, Where IS Our  Government and why aren’t they deploying help?

The first few days after the disaster, the water was still rising, the levees were breaking through still, as was posted too many times... it was just plain not safe. As a former firefighter and rescuer I can tell you with all of the certainty in my body and the wisdom of- unfortunately- experience that sending rescue personnel into an area where there is still significant damage being done is foolish, criminally negligent, and WILL cause only one thing to happen... injured, or dead resuers. Here's an example... at a fire scene, firefighters might look like they pull upm to the scene and go rushing in with absolutely no regard for their own safety to pull the family out of the fire and make it onto the 11:00 news... What you don't see is the fact that the commander (usually a Lt) of the very first truck on scene will tell the firefighters under his command whether to actually go be on the 11:00 news or not. There are times when the wisest choice to make is to tell your people to "surround and drown" and do a recovery effort later than to send them into a house that is fully involved, crumbling, and not going to be stable for much longer- if it is now. The you say a silent prayer that whomever it was living there got out, or was dead before the fire got to them.
This is the case in the Big Easy. The first couple of days after the hurricane landfall, the levees were breaking. Parts of NO that were ABOVE sea level (which most isn't) were 10-15 feet under water. The water was rising in measurements of feet per hour.. not day. There was no way to tell what was under the water, or if the rescuers were going to get trapped somwhere with no way to get out because another levee broke open while they happened to be performing a rescue 50 yards down the road, or if they were going to get hit by something floating underwater and get caught and drown. You say you have put yourself in the President's position... well, put yourself in the local rescue leader's position and ask yourself how many children are you willing to go to in a week and tell them that their daddy or mommy isn't ever going to tuck them in at night and kiss them goodbye for school again because you sent them into a postition they shouldn't have been in at all?

Upon the first reports of the monster hurricane Katrina hitting the gulf coast, forecasted to hit New Orleans and surrounding areas, I would have immediately phoned the Governor & Mayors setting up conference calls between us
According to numerous sources, the local leaders were in communitcation with the federal government, and chose not to listen to their thoughts. Perhaps I am seeing this completely wrong, however if a man is in trouble and doesn't want the help I have offered more than once, then (in the words of the storm tracker from earlier in this thread) I have done all I can.

I can invision his face now...just like the day he was sitting in elementary school reading a book to the children, and someone came in and whispered in his ear, "We're under attack", God, he just sat there with this dumb grin on his face in a state of shock, not able to move, didn't know what to do, again the man whispered in his ear...and finally our leader got up and was escourted out????

And whe you heard that we were under attack, or perhaps you were watching TV when it happened and saw it first hand... what did you do? I am going to take a stab at it and think to yourself "this CAN'T be happening!!!" I can almost guarantee you sat there for a second in shock when you realized it was, in fact, happening. While he is expected to be held to a certain standard, he is- after all- just a man, and had to make the switch from photo op, and thinking as a child (reading to first graders does that) to getting over the initial shock, to reaizing that he had to do something, to NOT scaring the kids and the teachers by bailing out of the room with no explaination. Give the man a break on THAT one issue. I don't know many that could have done better.

I was an office manager for a heavy & highway construction company in Pennsylvania; an office manager in charge of building roads (2 and 4 lanes), up to 100 men, heavy equipment, payroll, state codes, union codes, daily job documentation, testing concrete, finishing concrete, running people to the hospital, calling police, emergency medical teams, etc...and making certain, all materials were on the job and ready to disperse each and every day.

And during the winter of 1995 (97??) people sat out on Interstate 80 in Carbon County for almost 24 hours because people could not get to them... Now, please DO NOT get the idea that I am blaming you, or anyone in a position of power that winter. It was a huge storm, and a really nasty one that caused Governor Ridge to shut the Commonwealth down for 24 hours to try to somehow get things safe enough for the citizens. It took a super-human effort by too many people that year to get everyone through it... the point I am trying to make is that when you are dealing with the unknown element in any disaster-like situation (humans), then you have the possibility of a breakdown of communications or resources, and the possiblity that someone or some group of people isn't going to get the help they need. Is it right? No. Is it predictable? Yes. Will it happen at the next hurrican to hit landfall, even after the lessons from Katrina have been analized and played over thousands of times? Unfortunately, Yes.

not to mention those of us who voted for Bush, we feel an obligation to support him, regardless if he was wrong...b/c if we say he was wrong, we admit we ourselves may have been wrong in our choice of leadership.

I also (as might be obvious with my responses to numerous threads) voted for President Bush. And I have thought on a couple of occasions that I might have possibly been wrong... and there is nothing wrong in admitting that you made the best decision you could with the information you had at the time, even if you feel you would have made a different choice having more facts at this time.

He was warned two days before he went to celebrate McCain's birthday and learn some chords with Mark Wills. He obviously had to have KNOWN that Katrina was a storm to be taken seriously. Homeland Security had to have known that.

Noah, they DID know it... that has been stated in nummerous responses to this thread. And the President did what Presidents (ALL presidents) do... he put his people to work and stayed out of their way, allowing them to do their jobs. Whether they did those jobs properly, or didn't do those jobs properly is going to be a source of argument for the next couple of years... especially everytime another hurricane makes landfall. What would you have had him do?? Immediately run back to Washington and circle the wagons, appearing to be in a slight panic, or continue on with life and let his people do their jobs while being kept up with their progress. The President has the ability to know what is happening everywhere in the world at any time while he is jogging around the Ellipse (an area of DC)... what makes you think he couldn't do it while still doing his job and providing the people of America the "appearance" of normalcy?

I had respect for Bush in the weeks following 9/11 because he did just that; after first hearing of the tragic news in the Florida classroom where he was reading "My Pet Goat" to children, he indeed flew there, stood high in New York City and said "The whole world can hear you!".

In NYC on Sept 12, the damage was done, the fires were out, and there was no chance at all he was going to get caught in a situation where he would get trapped, hurt or killed... If he had rushed to NO and gotten photos taken of him on a roof top, or something like that, I would have joined you at your next protest rally calling him the stupidest human being on the entire planet.

And doing just that, strumming chords and stuffing his face while there was a cry for help, understandably strikes many as being unsympathetic, non-compassionate.

And, pray, Noah, what would you have had him do? Go running into NO with a paddle boat grabbing people off the streets?? At a disaster scene (again, I'll go with a fire scene just to give everyone a picture they have seen numerous times) the Batallion Chief doesn't go into the building and grab a hose. He has his people that he has hired to direct the efforts. His Captains and Lieutenants lead the troops into the building (if it's safe) and do that work. If they do not do their job, then he needs to discover what went wrong, and to make corrective actions to ensure it doesn't happen again... and that is what I believe happened. He hired the people to run the circus, and allowed them to do their jobs... and now that mistakes were possibly made, there is an ivestigation being done to ensure it doesn't happen again... actually, I believe there is a witch hunt about to take place where someone is going to get fired because they made a bad judgement call to satisfy the Democrats, and NO lessons are going to be learned, because when it happens again, regardless of who is in the White House at the time, we will have another inexperienced leader trying to do a job he is not ready for. In my opinion, we need to keep the FEMA director in office, or at the very most bring his second in command up (a Coast Guard Admiral) and allow them to continue with the lessons they learned under fire to prevent it from happening again.



When all is said
All is done
Still I live
And carry on-
Quiet Riot


[This message has been edited by Ringo (09-08-2005 06:45 PM).]

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47 posted 09-08-2005 05:53 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Seems like the Mayor gets a pass because he had the sense to
panic and rant, while anyone staying calm gets hit for being
insensitive.

There have been and are people dying all the time,
probably just up the road and right now.
Millions every day.   Yet, unless those dying are known,
who here is gaunt with hunger being made too incapable
by grief, sympathy, or compassion for them to eat,
sleep, or anything else?  

Balladeer
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48 posted 09-08-2005 06:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LeeJ.....it seems that Ringo got there first and touched on most of the points of your response I would have brought up, also.

Deer, I followed the news of this hurricane from the start of the warnings on the news, and as the hurricane came and went...flipping from CNN to the Weather Channel, to FOX...back and forth all during the first 2 & 3 days...and quite frankly reminding you that...that as the days went by, with still no relief for these people, man, did I take this very personal, screaming over and over, Where IS Our  Government and why aren’t they deploying help?

I would have immediately phoned the Governor & Mayors setting up conference calls between us and said, "hey guys, this one looks bad!" What are you doing to evacuate"?

I kept screaming inside, where is help, where is FEMA, where is the Red Cross, where is Bush?

immediately I would have deployed the national guards

I’m certainly not always right….but what I do possess is some common sense



LeeJ, I have no doubt you possess a great deal of common sense. My question is...why not use that common sense in an un-biased manner? Everything you say is, "Where was Bush? What about Bush?"  Yet I didn't see one word about where is the mayor or where is the governor or why isn't the city commission doing something? The mayor could have evacuated thousands more...he didn't. Were you screaming why not? You would have deployed the national guard immediately? The Louisiana national guard is directly responsible to the governor. She didn't deploy them. Did you scream why not? The governor turned down the federal request to handle the evacuation and control the violence. Is that not worthy of a small scream? You have ignored the front line of preparation and defense and gone straight after Bush with every comment possible....is that a common sense approach?

I can invision his face now...just like the day he was sitting in elementary school reading a book to the children, and someone came in and whispered in his ear, "We're under attack", God, he just sat there with this dumb grin on his face in a state of shock, not able to move, didn't know what to do, again the man whispered in his ear...and finally our learder got up and was escourted out????

That is the only thing you said that I consider unworthy ....sorry.

    Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

    The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.



Certainly, safety may have been a factor, but that's not what this is saying.  .....Brad's response.

Brad is right, That's not what this comment is saying. The important words in that comment are "the State Homeland Security Department"......not the national - the state. They did not allow the Red Cross to distribute food, under orders from the governor. Surprised?? Do you know why?

So the mayor, who could have saves thousands more, didn't - the governor, who could have mobilized the national guard and then accepted Washington's offer to assume control, didn't.....and everything is Bush's fault. Guess what? it's not flying. In the USA Today poll yesterday only 13% of the people polled said they blamed Bush. Undoubtedly the Democrats are furious and we can expect to see another one of their all-out offenses, which will turn more people off. Make sure all safety belts are fastened for this one.........
Juju
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49 posted 09-08-2005 07:03 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Consperacy theory:

Maybe this was politically motivated.

Buts that is just me.

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

 
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