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It's Monday Morning after Katrina
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It's Monday Morning after Katrina |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia 
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A hurricane came. A storm surge followed. The levees broke. The city flooded. Property was damaged and people died. People died because they stayed. The vast majority stayed because they were too infirm or impoverished to leave. They had no cars or airline tickets. But then the planes stopped flying too. Instead of being transported out of the city via mass transportation many were herded into a building that was designed to withstand winds 20 miles per hour slower than the ones everyone knew were coming. They stood outside in a line with babies, in wheelchairs, no bathrooms all day Sunday, waiting to get into the refuge of last resort. A three-hour trip via mass transit could have had them safely out of harms way. Three hundred years ago French settlers put down roots in a spot that was between lake Ponchetrain and the Mississippi River. The settlement grew into a city. It was fortified with a system of levees. As the city grew it became an important gateway for trade. So it grew more. America fell in love with the automobile. It needed gasoline and oil. Petroleum was discovered in the Gulf region. Drilling began. Refineries were built. The city grew more in size and importance to the economy of America. Many people grew very rich. More and more people became poor. The levees are 100 years old. Studies showed that they needed to be modernized, upgraded. Funding was diverted to the war in Iraq. Because America fell in love with the automobile, and electricity, fossil fuels burn around the clock. We began importing more and more oil from overseas, from the gulf in the Middle East. It's an area of great unrest. From an economic standpoint many thought the area needed to be stabilized to protect our interests in the region. Many thought we needed to protect ourselves from possible nuclear strikes from Iraq. Many thought we needed to have a war there. Hurricane seasons come in multi-decadal cycles. 20 to 25 years. In the late 70's and early 80's meteorologists warned governments, state, local, and federal that the rapid buildup of population and developed real estate on the nation's coastline was hubris. No one listened. Throughout the 90's the Gulf Coast of Mississippi was the hotbed for retiree resettlement, even at a faster pace than Florida or Arizona. For the last 10 years the hurricane seasons have increased in intensity and frequency of storms. This will be the case for another 10 to 15 years. Because we burn fossil fuels around the clock the Earth is warming at a faster pace than it would normally warm in its natural cycle. The water in the oceans is getting warmer. A couple of degrees difference can turn a category three hurricane into a category five hurricane. The energy that causes these hurricanes that can strike our nation with the force of ten atomic warheads comes from the solar systems largest, and natural, fusion reactor -- the sun. We ignore this powerful source of energy. The levees around the city to keep the river from flooding are destroying the wetlands on the coast that could break up and weaken a hurricane before it hits the city. This happens because flooding and the fresh sediment that gets deposited when the riverbanks overflow produce the wetlands. Every year a landmass the size of Manhattan is lost on the coast of Louisiana. 14 billion dollars could have fixed this problem but hasn't been funded for the last 15 years that it's been proposed. After 9-11 the Federal Emergency Management Agency was rolled into the newly created Department of Homeland Security. This was a move that was recommended by a special commission and supported by persons of all political ilks. Except the Bush Administration wasn't particularly fond of the measure. The new department was housed in an inadequate building, and ignored by the 'security' President. It's Chief, Tom Ridge, resigned and went home. Fema sent Cipro -- a drug to combat Anthrax to the site of the disaster in New Orleans. They didn't send helicopters. Or busses. A great human tragedy has befallen our nation. There is blame aplenty to be passed around. There are problems aplenty to be fixed. Not the least of which, and most important, remains -- poverty in America. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
quote: In 1965, after New Orleans and the Gulf Coast was ravaged by hurricanes, Congress passed a measure for the upgraded levee system, and gave the funds necessary for the slated 10 year job. 1975 came and went. In 2005, the job was only 80% completed. 9 Administrations, and I don't know how many Congressional, governmental, and mayorial elections later. Nice try on pinning everything on Bush and his Administration. quote: Um, guess that's also the reason for the catastrophic weather (hurricanes, floods, blizzards, tornados, dust storms, droughts) in the late 1800's and early 1900's. You know, prior to the mass produced automobile. And then the downright nasty weather during the late 1920's and early 1930's (not including the partially man-made disaster of the Dust Bowl). One thing to also consider is the tilt of the Earth's axis. It's normally around 23 degrees, and has been going through a tilt reversal for a few hundred years and has a very definite impact on weather systems and heating/cooling. quote: In case you forgot, which I don't think you did, Congress is in charge of funding, and earmarked insufficient funds for the Department of Homeland Security. quote: The Mayor of New Orleans had at his disposal all the municipal buses and school buses, and the authority and civic mandate to use them. Currently, the school bus depot is full of buses, all standing in about 2 feet of water after the levees broke. From Thursday through Tuesday, only one moved, and that was stolen (commandeered) and ended up transporting 70 to Houston. As far as I know, that school bus is still in the Astrodome's parking lot. |
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inot2B Member Elite
since 2000-09-18
Posts 2205Arkansas |
SOME PEOPLE JUST SIT AND GRIPE, AND YOU ARE ONLY ONE OF THEM, I'VE SPENT THE LAST 3 DAYS LOOKING FOR LOVED ONES AND I'M TIRED. GO AHEAD AND COMPLAIN AND BLAME IT ON ANYBODY AND EVERYBODY, IT JUST DON'T MATTER NOW. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I suggest both of you re-read the statement |
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inot2B Member Elite
since 2000-09-18
Posts 2205Arkansas |
Forgive an old woman for rambling. Yes this is a problem that should of been taken care of years ago. Maybe after it's all over, we the people can make sure that we are prepared for the next disaster. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well written and concise. You know, I've spent the last three days on the internet learning all this. My wife is pissed. I should have just waited for you.  |
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ice Member Elite
since 2003-05-17
Posts 3404Pennsylvania |
quote: The levees are 100 years old. Studies showed that they needed to be modernized, upgraded. Funding was diverted to the war in Iraq. Rebuttal quote: " Nice try on pinning everything on Bush and his Administration." Where is the distortion in LR's statement? I can't seem to find anything false in it? "The levees are 100 years old"- true "Studies showed that they needed to be modernized, upgraded" -true "Funding was diverted to the war in Iraq."- true These statements are facts, they do "pin" things on the administration...but not "everything" * quote: "Because we burn fossil fuels around the clock the Earth is warming at a faster pace than it would normally warm in its natural cycle. The water in the oceans is getting warmer." Rebuttal quote: "Um, guess that's also the reason for the catastrophic weather (hurricanes, floods, blizzards, tornados, dust storms, droughts) in the late 1800's and early 1900's." No, it was not the reason for those bouts of horrible weather, earlier in out history... Agreed, most weather is still majorly influenced by natural cycles and other natural phenomenon...earth axis tilt, etc.......But the feeling is, of scientists all over the world, that global warming is greatly enhanced by burning fossil fuels, and that the oceans are warming much faster then normal as a result. * quote: "The new department was housed in an inadequate building, and ignored by the 'security' President. It's Chief, Tom Ridge, resigned and went home." Rebuttal quote: "In case you forgot, which I don't think you did, Congress is in charge of funding, and earmarked insufficient funds for the Department of Homeland Security." I am a little confused...need more information on "insufficient funds". I thought that "Homeland Security" got what it needed? Ali, if you have a website that explains in numbers what was asked for, and what was got in the last approved budget...please post it here or send it to me. * quote: "They didn't send helicopters. Or busses. Rebuttal quote: "The Mayor of New Orleans had at his disposal all the municipal buses and school buses, and the authority and civic mandate to use them. Currently, the school bus depot is full of buses, all standing in about 2 feet of water after the levees broke." Agreed, a bad mistake. I wonder why O'Reily hasn't spun this (or others on the right) perhaps they have...It was a good chance to trounce on a Dem. and they usually don't miss those opportunities. But regardless of that bad mistake, the facts are that "(federal) helicopters and busses took several days after the fact to arrive...It is my understanding that the national guard drug their feet because they had to wait mission approval from the governor(s).....but also that the administration could have moved regular army equipment and men to the scene, had it chosen to react in a timely manner.....I mean, not nearly a week after the event, but actually before the event happened.. Remembering that the intensity and potential damage was predicted by all of the leading weather forecasters... * The annexation of FEMA by Homeland Security resulted in a huge loss of power in that important entity. When the Bush administration did this, they also dropped many of its (FEMA's) programs that were designed to make strong first response activity...such as the "project impact" or the "contingent emergency fund" programs... Yes, pinning some, but not all, on the administration...I don't believe they made the hurricane happen...but some responses explaining their reasons for not responding earlier are laughable.... ----------------ice ><> |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Ben Stein's take Ice, if you'd be so kind in the future, how about including a bit more when you use rebuttal quotes. You chose one line about 'pinning everything on Bush' but seemed to miss the prior line about 9 Presidential Administrations and a plethora of federal, state and local elections with regards to the levee system. |
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ice Member Elite
since 2003-05-17
Posts 3404Pennsylvania |
Ali Yes, I will do that from now on (post the entire quote)....believe me, I did read what was said......but that to me is like beating a dead horse....It is the Bush administration, along with a neocon congress who are in charge now, and their actions have wreaked the response system during their short stay in power, (as well as the lack of funding for new levee projects, or the completion of old ones) and have slowed down the processes,that would have not eliminated the terrible mess, but could have made it easier to handle.. Saying that "nine" presidential administrations and a plethora of other governmental elected's have ignored problems of the levee system is correct (in my mind) in part..There has been movement towards solution, forward on this issue, albeit at a cold molasses pace....but not the slow down to a sloth's pace like has existed since Bush came to power....Jimmy Carters formation of FEMA was a giant step forward, pertaining to this; Bush has all but dismantled that very important program...and that has moved things backward...I do look at history with a critical eye, it is very important....What I see is an administration that has not learned from history, and continues on with their agenda ignoring what happened in the past. I read "Ben Steins Take" Thank you... .His crafty way of wording things is very accomplished...I suppose being a speech writer for Nixon and Ford helped him be able to explain his point of view, in short, easily understood sentences... He stayed that course for most of what he said in that article. I do like his movies and his comedy... ---------------ice ><> |
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catalinamoon
since 2000-06-03
Posts 9543The Shores of Alone |
Thanks For that concise description. I am just ranting around my house, on the same lines, but with less competence. I just hope that the government will get it together now, and at least help the survivors, of which there should have been MANY more. Sandra |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
"But regardless" let's get back to Bush and his being the spawn of Satan. That's the sense I get here. |
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ice Member Elite
since 2003-05-17
Posts 3404Pennsylvania |
Huan yi Your sense is wrong, at least where I am concerned..I try to deal with facts, always..sometimes slipping into opinion, true...but I do state that when that is the case... My beef is with Bush, and the people that put him back in office, in my opinion a great blow against logic and reason, based on historical happenings and a call on much greater minds than who swear allegiance to his outdated theories... Call him Satan incarnate if you like, but I will not, I just call him conservative of processes tried, and proved to fail... --------------------ice ><> |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
THANKS, REB!  I like the way you presented this information. For those who may think the crisis is nearly over, since MOST of the people have been evacuated (those still alive anyway)according to the media droplets, I just read a Forbes.com news article that underscores my thoughts...its just startin to reveal itself...this tragedy...as two Nawlins police officers committed suicide, apparently unable to cope with the stress level. And a little old lady in a nursing home talked to her son every day, asking when they would come to rescue her...every day until Friday, that is...when she drowned, still waiting to be rescued. So no matter what you want to say about it, WE the people basically FAILED the people who were trapped into believing SOMEONE would be there on a timely basis. And for years, many of us have believed beyond a doubt that in a time of need, the good ol USA government would be there. After all, its always 'been there' for others on distant shores if you listen to the media reports. My point? I've been reading for many years that IF a national disaster occurs, you should be prepared to be on your own for up to a week. i've been through four Red Cross and hospital CPR and First Aid courses. Am I the only one who ever read all those damned handouts, including the blurbs in all the phone books that tell you to be ready to be on your own for a while? Having survived more than one earthquake, a hurricane, 6 years in ALaska, and time in a war zone, I have learned to be as independent as possible. But even I would have expected FEMA or somebody to be there much sooner. We can certainly sort out the lists for blame or credit when the pumps are through sucking up the mess in the south. But for too many, there will be no accountability list that matters. While I am trying to figure out what happened, who dropped the ball, I am humbled to see so many citizens pick up the ball and run with it, without the government, and most everyone I know has been kicking into the relief effort since the day we saw the crisis begin. Personally, I didn't need to be asked by this or any former Presidents to give, and doubt you did either. And giving doesn't just mean cash or goods to the south, it means giving every chance you can to make life better, to give someone a helping hand-up, not just a hand-out. But there is nothing wrong with questionning the who/what/when/where/why of this tragedy, and to focus on how to do better the next time. For there WILL be a next time, and it might be in your own back yard. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well the rescue operation has certainly turned the corner Kacey, and the work is beginning on helping families recover. The overwhelming response of average citizens has been encouraging. But we don't even begin to comprehend the toll in human lives. I'm returning to work tomorrow at my job as will the extensive population of America and the world. Our forebears chose to establish an economic infrastructure that thrives on division of labor. We hired people, and counted on them, to be the stewards of our security. There have been glorious victories and we owe our continued gratitude to the brave men and women who have been on the front lines extracting the victims of this terrible nightmare. There have been numerous scholars and government officials who have examined these types of scenarios and developed plans to respond to them. To them we also extend our appreciation. And, to those who have perpetrated crony politics, corruption, and ineptness at local, state, and federal levels we are obliged to exact reprisal. It's only September. The hurricane season runs until late November and even sometimes one pops up in December. Next week it could be in Miami, or Myrtle Beach, or Galveston, or Pensacola. But for the last week America saw what the ravages of poverty do to our fellow citizens standing in front of a convention center, or in a stadium. Or running through the streets attempting to find diapers, crackers, a drink of water, while their flesh is blistering from the poisonous floodwaters engulfing them. We need to recognize that poverty is a ravaging destroyer every day to the millions, mostly children, who are victim to it. Day in and day out it takes its pound of flesh in life, health, dreams, hope, love, and peace. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
The flooding there is really awful, and I've seen that kind of nasty stuff myself, Reb. Which is why flooded out home owners are asked and ordered not to return to their homes until it's clear, which means not until debris and highly contaminated waters are removed. Ice, thanks for that. JFK was assassinated in 1963, so that leaves 8 Administrations since the New Orleans levee project was started. It began in 1965 after Hurricane Betsy, and was supposed to be done by 1975. In 2005, it was only 80% completed, with most of the levees created not by the Army Corps of Engineers, but by private contractors hired by the Governor and Mayor. Those subsided several feet, thus lowering their protection versus flooding, and were the ones which were breached. Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, HW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush Administrations in the past 40 years when those levees could have been created, finished, strengthened and maintained. 40 years of governors and mayors, of local/state/federal legislators. To lay it all at GW Bush's doorstep 40 years after the inception of the levee program is grossly unfair. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/katrina/BBC_Katrina.mpg --This BBC interview takes forever to download for some reason. quote: Except that: quote: If you're really that worried about blaming the President all the time, blame it on the advisors. That'd still work for me. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
By the way: “The Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said at the same news conference that President Bush had called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation. “ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4216508.stm There’s an overhead shot of a whole lot of school buses parked in water. And yes, as Alicat has pointed out, there are laws about what the feds can do unilaterally, (or even within itself; the CIA and FBI sharing intelligence before 911). P.S. Question: was the water rising on Friday? And where was the staff at the nursing home? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: That was never the case here |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
That remark of mine was targetted for this thread, and other Alley Katrina threads when the rallying call is to blame the President for all of the world's ills. It's also targetted at most of the media and elected officials who have been more than happy to gather up all the blame and lay it on the doormat of the White House. |
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Cloud 9 Senior Member
since 2004-11-05
Posts 980Ca |
In reading what I have written and everyone else's responses......I am beginning to understand. No, I have never understood politics and (like I said in one of my posts) maybe I should before I respond. Thanks Ali, your responses especially have taught me alot. However, I still believe that everyone here needs to vent whether it blames someone or not. Instead of criticizing one maybe we should try to have them see it another way or educate them. I, having no cable or TV, I saw this at my sisters for a short time. I can see why one would be angry or to feel some sort of anger. NO, it doesn't do us any good and we should turn that anger into energy and help some way shape or form. I am sure everyone (maybe not all) sits on the edge of their seats while watching this hoping and wishing someone would hurry up and help the victims. And when they are not fast enough, people are outraged and then the next question in their minds are.....why? when? who? There is only so much I can do out here in Ca. I am sending cloths, canned goods and I am donating. That is the BEST I can do. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
There was no rally like that in this thread -- but your initial response was particularly accusatory Cat. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Katrina chronology Here is the timeline: Friday, Aug. 26: quote: I've highlighted Nagin's and Bush's actions and stopped it, roughly, at Nagin's SOS plea. Feel free to quote from the rest if you want. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
And they've proven, Ali, over the past five years, that they will never stop. Some seem to have made it the focal point of their political careers. I guess they don't have a clue that most of us have learned to tune them out when they begin to play their broken record. From what I have been able to gather, the mayor only ordered a mandatory evacuation on Sunday, and only after the urging of the president. Perhaps if he had ordered it on Friday or Saturday there wouldn't have been so many stranded people. And perhaps if the people had listened to the mayor and brought with them enough provisions (food and bottled water) for themselves and their families for several days, as well as blankets and pillows to the Super Dome, their stay there may have been a little more bearable. But then again, six hours was hardly sufficient time for people to prepare for a mass evacuation, and to have sufficient supplies on hand to bring with them. The mayor could also have made arrangements to have bottled water, foodstuffs, and sufficient security on hand to handle the crowds he knew would seek shelter in the Super Dome. He could have learned some very valuable emergency management protocols from his Houston neighbors at the Astro Dome. What excuse can he possibly have for not being at least as prepared as Houston always is (to receive refugees from Galvaston) in light of his city's geographical location, and with a good portion of it below sea level? The governor could also have given Bush her approval for him to send troops into LA. He offered. She refused. She could also have called up the LA National Guard. She didn't. The National Guard that did arrive on Thursday, finally, two days after the levees broke, were from Texas. The LA National Guard should have been called up immediately and been on hand and ready to go to maintain order as much as possible prior to the lawlessness that broke out in the aftermath of the storm and subsequent flooding that played a large role in hindering and delaying the relief efforts of the Red Cross and FEMA workers. The mayor and the governor dropped the ball and badly managed their respective responsibilities. And these are two of the primary figures pointing the finger at the Federal government for not being better able, and in a more timely fashion, to clean up the mess that their respective imcompetence helped to create. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Then my apologies, Reb. In your starting post, you did not mention the POTUS by name. That being said, you did cite several examples that have been used in other threads to directly attack President Bush. Global warming = President Bush not signing Kyoto Treaty. Funds diverted to Iraq = President Bush attacking Iraq. And though I haven't seen it here, I have read elsewhere of the Vanishing Wetlands = President Bush's environmental record. So often, it seems all the ills of the world started in 2000, having never occured prior, at least to certain politically motivated persons. So my 'nice try' response was unfair, since I read in a President's name that was not strictly mentioned. Reading between the lines is another matter, for another time. It would appear that there are many who don't like FEMA being part of Homeland Security, like Senators Pelosi and Clinton, though both were completely enamored by the notion when that department was created. President Bush was tarred, at the time, for not wanting FEMA to be part of Homeland Security. Perhaps it's high time that combination was questioned. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Accepted Cat. And I understand that some people have done that -- and I specifically wanted to contextualize the reticulate issues that are involved in this disaster. 10,000 people dead, and we hope it isn't that many.. is unacceptable performance. Everyone who is in a position of authority needs to have thier feet held to the fire for thier area of responsibility. But it's not about the 'Blame Game' -- it's about root cause failure analysis -- that's a process of fixing systemic problems. To do that we have to understand the legacy systems that are in place -- and then figure out where to plug the holes. Run a google on 'root cause failure analysis', or 'five why's'. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
They say there's no such thing as a stupid question but I may come close with this one - but I'll ask anyway... The water in the oceans is getting warmer. A couple of degrees difference can turn a category three hurricane into a category five hurricane. Global warming causes the icecaps to melt, from my understanding. The icecaps melting into the ocean causes the temperature of the waters to lower, it would seem. Why, then, would the waters in the oceans be getting warmer? Just a little burr... |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I hear ya. When there's drought and heat waves in coastal areas, best hope there's nothing crossing into the Gulf, since that critter will explode with power. There have been too many instances of the Gulf waters being a few degrees warmer than 'norm' over the past 100 years. It comes and goes in cycles, just like darn near everything else in Nature. In 1943, during the massive media blackout during WWII, there was a 'surprise' hurricane that hit Galveston and Houston causing extensive damage. It was later found to have entered the Gulf as a Tropical Depression, hit the above average warm waters, and exploded into a Cat 5 which became a Cat 4 when it hit the Texan coastal shelf. There's been so many hurricanes that were either weak Cat 1's, or lower that exploded upon hitting the Gulf since then, and even before. Part of the Gulf warming cycle, at least to my mind, deals less with man-made global warming, and more with the tilting of the Earth from 23 degrees to 237 degrees (across the top, not all the way around). That there is a very long cycle, spanning millenia. Since the medieval era, average temps have been increasing. Just look at the clothing styles of the northern European/Briton. Heavy furs and cloth early on in the summer months to medium weight to light weight as centuries progressed. 'Global Warming' is by no means a new phenomina. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Although I've considered global warming to be somewhat a reason for more violent storms, I've got to say, I'm in agreement with Ali...as nature does work in cycles. I remember the hords of cold winters and large accumulative snows...which lasted for weeks, months. Now we get hit by a snow storm, Noreaster...and it's gone within a few days to a week. The globe is certainly warmer, but I'm certain, unless divine intervention occurs, or a large scale nuclear attack...nature will to, once again, even if not in our lifetime, will find it necessary to pull her fur coat out of the moth balls. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: The polar ice caps are heat sinks. If you add more heat to the system and the sinks can't sink anymore heat -- what happens? If you pour hot tea into a glass with 4 ice cubes, and into another glass with 3 ice cubes -- what happens? As the ice cools the hot tea it absorbs heat until it is completely melted -- reaching the same temperature as the rest of the fluid in the glass. Obviously the glass that started off with 4 cubes is cooler than the glass that started with 3 cubes. Both, will continue to change temperature though until they reach the ambient temperature of their surroundings. So, when the oceans get warmer and the polar caps melt - that means the warmer the oceans get -- the faster they'll get warmer. [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (09-07-2005 06:47 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
As the ice cools the hot tea it absorbs heat until it is completely melted -- reaching the same temperature as the rest of the fluid in the glass. Ok, but hasn't the temperature of the rest of the fluid in the glass been lowered by the melting of the ice cubes? (geometry was never my best topic  ) |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Your thermodynamics professor is now wondering if his entire career was wasted?  The caps are continuously sinking off heat. The sun is continuously applying heat. But, as there is less and less ice there is less sinking effect. The glass with 4 cubes absorbs more heat than the glass with 3 cubes... the temperature IS lowered by the ice... but, what if the ambient temperature were HIGHER than the temperature of either glass after all the ice melts? Which one warms faster? The one that's already warmer. Take a slightly different scenario. Say you have a tub of water. At either end you put in ice cubes. In the middle of the tank you start blasting the water with a blow torch. What happens to the water? What happens to the ice? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Yeah, let's go with that scenario a little further... Lets add in an active cooling source -- like the effect of outer space and the tilt of the earth to look at Cat's point... If you have a refrigirant that you're applying at either end of the tub and a blow torch you're hitting the water with in the middle and you reach equilibrium -- what happens if you turn up the torch? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Since most glasses are actually plastic, the water flows out when the blowtorch melts the side of the plastic glass. Given the extreme temperatures of the blowtorch in relation to the ambient air temperature, the above examples are way extreme. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
It is a wee bit more complicated than bathtubs. The computer models have error rates in excess of 100% as the number of variables is enormous and generally unknown as to their effects which is why we use such scientific terms as maybe, probably, or likely. Do we factor in the positive or negative feedback factors? Do we this or do we that? Depends a lot on how you want the result to be, and do not for a second believe global warming is not as much politics as it is science. Thirty years ago we were in a cooling period and facing a minor ice age. A few years ago, both ice caps were going to melt and the oceans rise to destroy all coastal plains. Now the Antartic is going to have increased ice and snow and the Arctic is going to melt as the increase in warmth will create more moisture, ie snow. By the way, the predominate green house gas is by far water vapor. Do clouds increase or decrease the greenhouse effect? You can argue both ways. What effect do the wind currents have? What effects do natural events have? What effect does deforestation have? What effects do sun spots have? What effect does modernization have? What effect does.... The temperature today in New York City is higher than fifty years ago just be virtue of the number of buildings and people. If we believed the consensus in the sixties, there would be no trees left on earth as they would have all died as the result of acid rain. But then we wouldn't be here because of the population explosion. Wait, they used the wrong model. oops. At least millions of children aren't dying needlessly of malaria because of a consensus that DDT is a dangerous pesticide... ooops... The IPCC was primarily a political document and not a scientific document. But I guess if you are skeptical of the doomsday projections of global warming, you are a crackpot. If anyone says they can say what the effects of global warming are going to be without the proviso this is a maybe, possible, or even at best probable,and they are a scientist, I would say it is maybe possible or even probable they are getting funding from some source that is pro-global warming. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
It's possible Tim, that you meant to post that response on a different thread. Or not. However. In science, not entirely unlike law, we base opinion on evidence. While water vapor is certainly the predominant greenhouse gas -- the focus of global climate change is on what is the effect of human activity? It is known, for certain, that carbon dioxide buildup is due, largely, to human activity. That you don't like the results of the IPCC is clear. You probably are also rather in favor of the unfettered redistribution of wealth from the working class to the oil companies. You may even own an oil well. You might own stock in a refinery. You might own stock in American General who makes the Hummer. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury -- please disregard the last comment. I object. It is as baseless as the prosecutors allegations. Early after the development of the atomic bomb some doctors thought radiation might be good for us. People used to think the world was flat. How then, can we, merely because we have better evidence believe that it is round. Indeed. We can't know what to believe. Columbus was just a politician. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
nope, don't own of that stuff, but what the hey. It is not certain carbon dioxide buildup is create by human activity. A small portion of it is. Decay of plants, volcanos and any sort of natural events are by far the main releasers of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Not a question of what I like or don't like, it is the fact that the facts are based upon conjecture and the debate is heavily influenced by politics. I prefer facts. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Then you need to get them straight. The fact is that the buildup of carbon dioxide is due, largely, to human activity. We use words like 'largely' in science because, primarily, when speaking English we use English words. Largely, means , more than the other contributing factors. It doesn't mean solely. There are fluctuations in atmospheric composition due to natural causes. There are differences in temperature from region to region. There are natural cycles. But, during the industrial period there has been an UNNATURAL buildup of carbon dioxide, and ABNORMAL warming. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
you make leaps of faith with conjucture to arrive at statements of fact and then to arrive at ABNORMAL AND UNNATURAL... You start with the fact that levels of one of the greenhouse gases has increased due to human activity in the last 200 hundred years, a gas that is overwhelming created without mankind's input, and conveniently throw aside the forces of nature and arrive at ABNORMAL and UNNATURAL. Still would rather believe on facts rather than conjecture and politics. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
A political statement from our friends at the White House: quote: But what the hey Tim? Why not just ignore that and ignore the National Academy of Science too? http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/UniqueKeyLookup/SHSU5BUTQ4/$File/nas_ccsci_01.pdf The atmospheric concentrations of CO2 up 31% CH4 up 151% N2O up 17% Science, the faith of doing things like counting how many of one kind of thing you have and keeping track of it, has confirmed this is primarily due to human activity. Burning coal, oil and gas, and cutting down forests are largely responsible. Global temperatures are up an average of 1.1 degrees F over the last 100 years. Gee, we should panic? One degree... one measly little degree.... (don't forget the .1) That's an aggregate number -- that's how we tell how much heat is in the soup. If you don't think 1 degree is much of a difference then you need to consider that during the Ice Age the planet was only 9 degrees cooler than it is now. What's more important than the 1-degree is that this is a trend that is rapidly accelerating. The cycles that the Earth goes through normally take a long time -- you might note -- the 8-degree warming period was a pretty long damn time. Even the low-end projections of acceleration show the planet warming faster than any rate in the last 10,000 years. Over the next 100 years the projected increase is 2.5 -10 degrees. The 20th Century was the warmest in the last 1000 years, with the 90's being the warmest decade and 1998 the warmest year in the last decade (remember this is based on data available in 2001). It's pretty obvious to anyone standing inside a closed garage with a car motor running that there are some pretty dangerous gasses created. The Earth is a closed garage. We have natural carbon sinks in the system that can absorb both man-made and natural carbon-dioxide emissions -- but we're cutting those down. Any way you slice it -the facts all indicate human activity. I'm not throwing away the forces of nature when I use words like Unnatural and Abnormal -- I have to consider what is normal and natural before I can conclude something is not. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Sorry Cat, didn't notice you came in and posted.. No.. heat transfer is heat transfer. If it's 74 inside and 75 outside unless you have an air conditioner it's going to become 75 inside. If it's 90 outside and 30 inside it's going to happen the same way -- just faster -- which is what we do in science to test things. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
After doing some incidental reading on the USACE site, I learned something. Worst flooding in the US was in 1927, during the Great Flood, when 700k people were left homeless. And that was before the massive population shifts which came during the Great Depression and Post War growth explosion. After the disaster of 1927, the US Army Corps of Engineers was formed. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Yes, and yes... though, I'm trying to correlate a direction there Cat... you are informing the conversation to what end ? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Well, again, the USACE was responsible for flood prevention along US waterways, most notably the Mississippi River which forms the southern curve of New Orleans. Those levies held. The private industry responsible for the rest of the levee systems for New Orleans, though they had more than adequate funding, decided to invest in gambling enterprises instead of the levees of which they were responsible. Perhaps they were desiring a capital return and higher revenues for the levies, or perhaps some pocket lining. Their levies are the ones that failed. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
So then you're saying that the government works but private enterprise doesn't? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Obviously, in this instance Fed trumped Private. Now, I'm all for private enterprise. I'm all for workforce competition. And I'm all for results. There are things the private industry excel at doing, and there's things the state and federal governments excel at doing. I'm not, however, for any type of enterprise without proper oversight and review. Now, I'm not sure why the US Army Corps of Engineers was not allowed to oversee levee construction for Lake Pontcherain and the canal system, but the New Orleans Levee Board has some serious questions to answer. Come to think of it, the USACE probably wasn't allowed since those things aren't US waterways, unlike the Hudson and Mississippi Rivers, although they did create Lake Texoma from several strategic dams along the Red River in between Texas and Oklhoma to prevent seasonal droughts and floods. For New Orleans, politics were probably involved since the other levees did deal with flood prevention. Had the Mississippi levies failed, the French Quarter might be deflooded by now, if all the pumps worked and the breaches closed. That section would've sustained some gawdawful flooding, especially with upriver drainage. Katrina did track along the eastern side of the Mississippi, cutting NE around Ohio into Canada, dropping copious amounts of rain along the way. And all that water ends up in Old Miss. |
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