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Katrina |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296
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This morning I posted a rant, on Sunshine's Hurricane thread for Serenity/Karen...and it wasn't the place to post that rant..so, here I am. Quit frankly, all I've been hearing the past 4 days from our government agencies is, we have a Plan in Progress... Well...here goes People are dying...now they have guns...we should have been in there directly after the hurricane ceased. I don't want to hear, there's no way in...if we can drop army troups anywhere in the world, we can certainly drop Armed National Guardsmen, food, water, supplies, boats, etc. I'm not buying any excuse for this...the crowds will grow more and more dangerous the longer they wait. These are human beings...dying...and candidly, if I were there, and saw a child/adult die right next to me, I'd freak out to say the least. I watched Fox News, The weather Channel, and CNN all last night, and all I heard from all our agencies, including the President, that we're putting a plan in place?????? They have a hugh medical emergency medical boat, which won't get there for 7 days...another boat filled with supplies, which won't arrive for another 3 to 4 days...just how long do they expect these people to survive in 90+ degree heat. Now, this senerio also raises another question...if, this were a terrorist attack, would Homeland Security have been just as unprepared. Remember folks, it wasn't the government who came in and helped people during 9/11 which was isolated to one area in New York. It was in fact, the Local firemen, police and doctors who came to the rescue???? This is a human error, and frankly someones' got to account for this? Its not about other countries coming to our rescue, it's about us taking care of our own. and if we can't do that...then we need to rethink here. I suppose what I'm asking you all who read...there is no excuse for this...they should have been ready to go in there directly after the hurrican left. We've got army helicopters that are equipped to drop any and all necessary men and supplies and we have yet to do so????????? They should have been dropping water and supplies to those people from day one... I don't want to hear, the place is surrounded by water? These agencies should have been up, running and ready, including our government boats, medical supplies...for God's sake, people are dying where they are sitting, and every moment counts... What were we waiting for and why? Years ago, things like this didn't happen? The National Guard was ready and willing. I saw a couple from I think Alabama go in there and start helping load people into helicopters, and oh, by the way, up until this point, those present in those areas doing the rescuing were locals who had lost homes themselves. Now, a police officer has been shot...??? Every second that passes, people will become more and more desperate...and I refuse to judge these people until I walk in their shoes, cuz I've never had to experience anything like this...but I will say this...I wouldn't steal a gun and shot at someone...so understand, I'm not siding with those criminals...but, if it came down to feeding my children, or my survival...I would steal food & shoes, and probably some silly putty  .there are going to be more hurricanes, are we ready? And what if this was a terrorist attack? It surely is a national disaster, and we were not ready? Why? Exactly what plans are in the making, and why has everyone in our government been running around scratching their heads afraid to make the call of, Let get in there now??????? If this is an example of how American takes care of their own...folks we are in for trouble, and it's no darn wonder other countries won't stand behind us and offer support? Actually, I know how those feel about, hey we're the first to run and offer other countries help...and we are...but what is happening here, is a major error and disgrace...and please, when you watch the news....don't you dare let them wiggle their way outa this. Am I mis-informed here and off base, is it me? I'd like to hear what others think? [This message has been edited by LeeJ (09-01-2005 03:15 PM).] |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
only read part of this, am in big hurry but want to say, yes pipsters are putting relief efforts together faster than any govt agency can and it didn't surprise me for this place operates like a family squabbles and all sometimes LOL but I agree ~WE KNEW it was coming...knew it would be big~ Banda Aceh had NO warning and it took so long to get help there... didn't we learn anything from that, that a massive well-coordinated emergency response needs to happen within 24-48 hours??? ok, thank goodness real people don't wait until the government does something that's all for now, just wanted you to know you aren't alone in your frustration |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
You're absolutely right. It's funny how ALL THOSE REPORTERS and their buddies manage to get down there so quickly, and all they do is report.. do they help? no.. If the NBC man can get down there in 12 hours, why can't our military? It's shameful. Love's a lovely lad |
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Cloud 9 Senior Member
since 2004-11-05
Posts 980Ca |
Your not alone at all. I am completely frustrated by this. As a matter of fact, I was viewing the pics of this yesterday and they showed the president flying over and viewing the damage. What!? Why doesn't he lace up the hipboots and get down there and help out or really view it and hear it. Hear the horror of losing your famiy(ies), your belongings, your dignity, your self control and your mind. What does he not understand about 85 PERCENT of New Orleans gone. And the surrounding states as well. He cut his vacation short by 2 days.......who cares. Why wasn't he home when they announced how bad it was BEFORE it hit? Gas prices have gone up so so much here in California**still climbing**. Did anyone ever think about what would be the back up plan if something should happen like this. NO I don't understand politics so maybe I need to before I speak. Sorry folks just ranting here. Please don't disect if I am not understanding. I wish I could be the jolly green giant and take everyone of them and place them in a warm safe place. Of couse dodging and trying ***clearing throat** not to step on the looters. **looter who are taking unnecessary things*** Big hugs LeeJ. [This message has been edited by Cloud 9 (09-01-2005 06:54 PM).] |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Frankly, I'm still most overwhelmed right now by the aftermath as I imagine just about everyone is, and believe we ought to remain patient in the time being and wait after things settle further and progress is made before we reach the analytical/political stage of Katrina. As someone who has, for instance, previously argued the seriousness of global warming's impact on the environment and weather patterns and more effective warning systems being implemented, I agree we can do better. All the same, I believed it inevitable, especially after seeing those four major hurricanes last year, that eventually we would be facing these hurricanes that wreck upwards of $500 billion in total property damage. Again, though we indeed could be doing better than this, I also understand the tsunami was a rather recent tragedy, and indeed on terms of most property damage and levee destruction, had we taken the worst case scenarios more seriously, sadly, we still couldn't have prevented this monster storm from happening. I just don't know what their "plan" is right now, but I want most of all right now is to try and be supportive, and comfort the victims and families of this tragedy, and perhaps as we're busy doing just that and fueling our own charities and sympathies towards the citizens of Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, Texas and all their families afected by this hurricane, they'll offer a great relief program or better yet, a long-term agenda to better prepare our shores for relatives of Katrina. ***** My mom was saying last night she also doesn't like it when the president responds to a hurricane or natural disaster and attempts to "wallpaper his face all over it". I'm no real fan of that either, but I also have seen how throughout history, it seems pretty "obligatory" for the president to go out and say or do something, anything less would strike everyone as seeing the person as unsympathetic. You've got to be there, and secondly, you need to appear genuine, not be conceited and rather reveal the real heroes out there who are hospitalizing the children, rushing to repair the levees, etc. I believe that can be done without making it look like a photo-op. Finally, I agree about the reporters. I mean, we've all watched so much news that we just can't ever expect a newscaster to cry or express their feelings live before the camera, but it bothers me very much that they speak robotically, with the same tone like they did during the election season. I don't know what else to say, I guess after all I've seen of news, reporters can feel so unnatural sometimes. I can understand the anger in many hearts right now, and being one who is upset about so many or failed to listen of the other things the government has done, I'm living proof. But I believe just for a while longer, we must remain patient, and then afterward, if the government still doesn't respond the way many desire, we need to discipline that anger, be loud yet polite, and address these concerns. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Do you know how hard it is to gather a National Guard troup together? Do you know how hard it is to devise a plan for martial law? Do you know how hard it is to drive huge trucks hundreds of miles to a devastated area? I was stationed at the Emergency Operations Center after the last year's hurricane. We had National Guard Captains in the 'bunker' with us. The MINUTE it was safe for them to come in they did...it took three days. Cut it some slack! Quit bitching about how everyone isn't doing EVERYTHING they can. They are! I'm so mad I could spit! Stop blaming! Stop slamming people! Quit complaining! Take a deep breath and find a way to help out because this kind of rhetoric won't help! I truly don't mean to upset or offend anyone and this is NOT a personal attack on anyone here. I'm so tired of people whining because someone didn't move fast enough...tell that to the pilot of the military helicopter who was trying to evacuate SICK people from the Superdome only to come under fire from a sniper!! Tell that to the driver of a truck with supplies that was surrounded by a gang carrying guns...tell that to the manager of the nursing home who was trying to evacuate the elderly in his care only to find his bus was hijacked!! Sorry....I need a break. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
...the plans should have already been in place, now isn't the time to be formulating. FEMA and other agencies have to stand ready to respond immediately. This shows how unprepared we really are for a national disaster. Suppose this scenario...or similar one, should happen in two or three parts of the country at once? Noah, I don't think we have to sit tight and be polite. We should shout in outrage at the delays. And all I saw from the Pres? another idiot photo op. Maybe I was on the wrong news channel? |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Did you read how much the President has designated for relief efforts? |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
NOPE, and maybe that's part of the problem. I've been temporarily 'swallowed' by a recent trauma/drama. I don't have cable TV, and we have no local media except a Mon-Fri paper that doesn't cover much of anything so I rely mostly on internet news. It seems as if the government is actively evacuating thosuands to the Astrodome, hopefully that's a good temp shelter solution. Perhaps, all we can expect is already being done, but it sure hurts to hear how days afterward...so many people are still stranded. sigh |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
As much as I hate to pass up an opportunity to criticize the Pres, there are a couple of points that need to be made. Ordinarily relief crews are positioned fairly close to where a hurricane is supposed to hit... but, the sheer size of Katrina made it very difficult to do. The National Guard units that responded are under the direction of the Governors of their respective states, not FEMA or the President -- they were staged, along with power restoration crews and other relief workers as close as it was thought possible and still be out of the range of Katrina. Hurricanes don't behave completely predictably... and neither did Katrina -- many of the residents of New Orleans went East -- and wound up directly in the path in the Gulfport area -- where no one expected the full force of the storm to hit. The laws of physics also come into play -- ships only move so fast -- trucks only move so fast, and that's when there are clear roads.. there are entire bridges and causeways that are gone that feed traffic into the effected areas. Helicopters can only carry so much freight/cargo... there are no places to land larger cargo jets. The first responders in some areas are just as gone as the areas are -- and the Police and Fire Dept's in New Orleans are hampered by the same water and damage as the other victims of the storm. Sure, we can move troops anywhere in the world -- but, generally speaking -- we don't launch attacks in rain storms let alone hurricanes. There are some frustrating elements to this I know -- and if you want to focus that frustration into areas where it belongs here are a couple of things; A.) The Bush administration and Republican Congress have slashed funding over their tenure that would have improved the levy system for New Orleans. B.) The corruption in the police department and city government in New Orleans and the State of Lousianna has fostered an environment that has been so lacidazical towards crime that wide-scale crime was rampant without civilization being wiped away -- looting is no big shock. C.) Because it was no big shock the main areas that weren't under water should have been secured with police and guard units instead of sending them around the city willy nilly saving lives. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"I'm so mad I could spit! Stop blaming! Stop slamming people! Quit complaining! Take a deep breath and find a way to help out because this kind of rhetoric won't help!" Well yeah, when I see footage of 9 month preganant women having contractions on the street, who haven't eaten for four days, i AM GOING TO GET PISSED, OK? I WILL bitch, ok? So yeah, you yelling at me isn't going to help either. Love's a lovely lad His bringing up is beauty Who loves him not is mad For I must pay him duty -Anonymous |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
LoveBug I am not yelling at you..I am venting...I didn't want anyone to think I was mad at them or demeaning their opinion. I know all about those poor people who are in desperate need. But how can anyone help them if there are snipers shooting at them. I do think the Governor was totally unprepared for this massive devastation. I think he forgot there were people sheltered in the convention center. But I also think some of those people could have eleviated their situation...there are convenience stores, restaurants, hotels in the area (I've been there) so they could 'loot' food and water from there. I know they broke into the convention center food service area and got what they could there. I know there are thousands of sick, dying, helpless people. All I was saying is that we should stop trying to point fingers of blame and help them out! Now is the time to unite not divide. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
What kinds of things are being looted? To me, if its food water and emergency supplies...well, I don't have any problem with people taking what they need for survival. If they are taking TV's, DVD's, new vacuum cleaners? that's a whole other issue to me. My reception is so poor here that I cannot see clearly what's on the TV screen, and the audio is scratchy. What a monstrous mess. I am wondering what will become of all these people, all the ones who are already living on shoestring budgets. What's going to happen? Will these people get short term and long term help from Texas? Louisiana? Mississippi? the Feds??? Where will they find housing and jobs? will they be driven back to New Orleans or left stranded in texas three months from now? Guess we have time for that planning step. |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I think it's fine to take food and water and medicine but what are people going to do with TVs, Computers, Gameboys???? |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
my point exactly, Sharon food and water ok, emergency supplies yes stealing luxury stuff? lockem up |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
The answer to that last question is difficult KC... there are victims of hurricanes from two years ago that FEMA has left behind still living in temporary housing (trailers). I know that one mobile home manufacturer in Indiana has received an order from the DHS already to build temporary housing for the refugees and is ramping up production and hiring 200 people this week. It's too difficult to even absorb the full impact of what's going to happen to the rest of the economy let alone to those who took the frontal attack of the storm. I talked to people today, and I'm still mad, who said they weren't donating any money or food or clothing to send down to help 'those looters'... and unfortunately there is that mindset in some people in this country and the world. But, the rest of us just have to keep plugging away regardless. Damn the torpedoes, hell or high water. |
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Cloud 9 Senior Member
since 2004-11-05
Posts 980Ca |
"LoveBug I am not yelling at you..I am venting...I didn't want anyone to think I was mad at them or demeaning their opinion." As we are venting as well. One can only be frustrated when they cannot help or do enough to help. If we were all Superman/woman we would have it taken care of. I don't think its blaming anyone, I think its "Why" aren't we more prepared when something like this happens. As LeeJ said.....she/we is/are not in thier shoes. Whether it be the military, president, or the victims of Katrina. NOTHING is simple and easy to do in a situation like this. Yeah and I think if we could all snap our finger ans make it go away........ID BE SNAPPING FIRST....ACTUALLY KAREN WOULD BE SNAPPING FIRST. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
In reality guys -- New Orleans is a swamp with a lot of really bad chemicals in the water -- very few of those luxury items are going to be any good anyway -- the tvs, vcrs, dvd players -- they're going to be ruined -- the looters are merely wasting their energy -- as far as the food goes - the police said they weren't stopping anyone from getting food or water. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
I have to be one ignorant person. I could not in my wildest imagination see how someone could blame the largest natural disaster to hit the United States on President Bush either by his creating global warming, not funding the EPA or not putting on his hip waders. I guess if it is in a blog somewhere it must be true. We just had a category 4 hurricane hit a major metropolitan area which sits in an old swamp below sea level which for over fifty years everyone has known would be devasted if hit by a hurricane. It was. Politicians did not create the hurricane nor its devestation. Nature did. Countless innocent people sometimes suffer terrible fates for no reason other than we do not control nature, it pretty much decides to do what it wants when it wants. We humans are not near as powerful as we think we are and the forces of nature are. Anyone who honestly believes the same devastation and utter horror would not have existed whoever the president was and is operates on a totally different wavelength than I. When unexplainable tragedies happen, we need to blame either the victim (and if the victim is not to blame) or someone else. That way, we do not have to face the fact that terrible things happen for no reason other than terrible things do happen without human rhyme or reason. What a sad thread to have going when so many people are suffering and so many people are doing everything in their power to help their fellow human beings. |
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Cloud 9 Senior Member
since 2004-11-05
Posts 980Ca |
"What a sad thread to have going when so many people are suffering and so many people are doing everything in their power to help their fellow human beings." Its merely a rant of frustration. Again, I don't think its a matter of blaming anyone. Its like if we had a huge earthquake her in California. Are we ready for it......of course not. When is the "big" one going to hit?? Who knows. I think what everyone is feeling here is quite normal. This is a prime example of what LR was saying. You get so comsumed in the horror of it all that it starts to weigh on you and your emotions. AND Again, we are not in these people shoes to know how fast things can and cannot get done. Please for once, can people just vent how they feel without it being disected?? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“More than one million people were evacuated from New Orleans and the surrounding areas before the hurricane struck, but Mayor Ray Nagin has estimated that up to 100,000 people decided to stay in the city. “ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4206622.stm |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Tim, I really don't believe that most are seriously blaming Bush for Hurricane Katrina. I believe many are just quite frustrated that it took four days for him and others to rise from their seats and respond to the tragedy. They're blaming Bush not for the hurricane hitting itself, but for the delayed response to the tragedy, striking many of the victims and others as being unsympathetic to the victims and failing to feel the real disaster it is right now, like when you look around New Orleans right now, it doesn't feel like America, it feels very familiar to Bangladesh or Haiti. I believe the Administration could have indeed responded sooner than they have and they could and should be doing more. I do also question his immediate response to the tragedy, where he struck me as ranking oil over the humanitarian effort. But I'm also understanding that it just isn't that easy right now to simply get around. Sharon was right earlier in the thread that it takes a lot of work and preparation to transport a National Guard unit from Point A to Point B, and I indeed do not fault the National Guard at all for the efforts they're making out there. All I'm hoping is that the government understands this is not your ordinary natural disaster, the area devastated by Katrina is seriously a war zone right now. People are dying out there, which is not acceptable. There was a woman in her wheelchair who died right by the convention center, with another body draped in white cloth lying next to her on the cold ground. People are stuck, starving and ailing away within the Astrodome, with many denying or failing to hear the many cries for help from within the facility. I am doing the best I can to remain patient and understanding of the far-reachings of the conflict, but I very much understand the frustration. It too was most unsettling to hear from the House Speaker that it wouldn't make any sense to rebiuld the city because it would just get flooded again. And indeed he may be partially right that the city won't be any stranger to flooding, but to say that during a great time of chaos and mourning is totally non-compassionate. Indeed, looking at it from other terms, $25 billion is equivalent to three months of fighting in Iraq, so I don't see why not it can be offered to the people of New Orleans. This disaster, this chaos, this anarchy rises well above politics. It doesn't matter if you're a Republican or Democrat. Many, if not most out there expect you, regardless of your party, to show that something is being done, that you're making an effort. And when many see that Bush was playing a guitar on Tuesday in California with Mark Wills after making his speech to commemorate the 60th anniversary of Japan surrendering in WWII, then returned to his ranch, THEN returned to Washington on Wednesday morning, it could indeed send a message to the victims that there doesn't seem to be anyone in charge here. Despite my disappointments with the response on the government's part, I am most blessed and inspired by the vast support that both Americans and nations worldwide are offering the victims. The relief efforts really touch my heart. For instance, my parents work for Allstate and aside from their relief program they've put together, a seperate one million dollar donation was contributed from the Allstate president to the relief effort! That really was wonderful to hear! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Shouting in the alley is always ok... and we're going to see an increasing tendency to politicize this catastrophe. Zeus knows the Bush administration politicized 9/11 every chance it got... The time for a post mort is after the action though. Right now it's time for course correction and cooperation. At the proper time there are many questions we're going to have to ask and answer about some of the fundamentally wrong decisions that are interlaced in the numerous different systems both private and public that have resulted in the aftermath of Katrina. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
What was said VS what is true http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/index.html It makes me sick.. This FEMA guy said yesterday (quoted on CNN) that the rescue/recovery efforts were going well, much better than when the tsunami happened. WOW, we're better than a third world country! Should we be patting ourselves on the back for that? I don't think thats good enough.. And people who glorify this process make me even sicker.. Love's a lovely lad His bringing up is beauty Who loves him not is mad For I must pay him duty -Anonymous |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
I know I live up here in Canada and should stay out of this but I have an opinion as well, so hold the stones please … I have been glued to a television since before the hurricane hit. On the phone with friends pleading for them to leave, etc. and that's the absolute truth, as I have so many American friends. One reason for that is I met a lot of them through this site. The other and most important is, I have always loved the loyalty you have for your country, flag, military, and your leadership, and right now it’s important to keep setting that example to us outsiders. The first thing I look for crossing the border is that flag of yours, and I smile! I know there are always going to be people that complain about what isn't being done, or how its done, that just life, but in a major disaster like this one, it is better to talk about what is being done. It’s better really to try to do something positive about what is not being done in your own small way to change it for the better if you can if you want to help at all. The fact of the matter is that there is poverty everywhere, and with that comes the shoes they must walk in. The people left behind (no matter what their color) didn't have the means, "wheels or money," to escape and it was strictly a social class issue there, nothing more that held them to home base. Were I in their shoes, I too would sit my butt down and wait to see who was coming and get me, what else could they do? I realize the lowlife looters, that stayed behind on purpose had their own agenda too though. The fact is this, these are entire states we are talking about, not townships, and the numbers are staggering. I don’t think they were ready for this period! This is the first major disaster like this in American history, and were they ready, probably not, but I can't for a second think that the American people are not demanding all that can be done, and will get all that your government can give, that is the American way. This is all they can do right now, and they are doing it! I think what has to be said here or anywhere right now is words of the the positive work being done, these people have had a major change in their lives, entire townships are obliterated, and not only in New Orleans but the entire Gulf Coast as we all know. It's easy to sit in a comfy chair watching t.v. or a computer and criticize, but like anything in life, if you want it changed, do something to change it! Make a small difference. Listen, I would love a chance to dig Bush, but this time, I would not to walk in his shoes for anything. Am I disappointed things were not handled better, faster, quicker, sure - but in this situation, I do truly believe they are doing all that they possibly can do and were not expecting what they now face, nor were they ready for it. I say if they save anyone, they are heroes in my book. I don't want you to take this as a criticism against anyone, but I always think it is better to search out and send positive vibes and go on those, as you create a certain rush of calm not chaos that is catchy. New Orleans especially is a landmark in this world, and the people that first built it had stamina, strength, conviction, integrity and honor. I have faith in the American people and know this city will be re-built and better than ever, eventually. It is my intention to go down there as a working type holiday as soon as there is clearance to do that, and there is something others might want to consider? We know only a handful of people this is effecting but think of the thousands, that may be reading these threads, and let's send them all the positive energy we can. Who said this? If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of problem or something? Sorry I saw this and got carried away, because we could all be doing so much good with spare time, dollars, etc. than critizing. There will be time enough after all this to put the blame where it goes, and make those responsible for their part in a bad recovery wear the hat. For now - God Bless America and all it stands for. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Increasing tendency? Lovebug is right, it is disgusting to compare as one person I read said that those who were stranded in New Orleans should be happy to be getting anything at all. If they had lived in Bangladesh, he said, . . . . Bangladesh? Look, if you want to focus on the good people can do, great. But let's not pretend that they arguments haven't already been stated, the battle lines drawn, and that this has already become partisan. 4 words: The decimation of FEMA. Sorry, I lived through the Northridge quake and remember being in awe of the speed and efficiency of that organization in its heyday. [This message has been edited by Brad (09-03-2005 04:16 AM).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Everything a politician does is political. But can we simply be human beings for a while? .. just because somebody draws a fist doesn't mean they have to punch. You know me... I have plenty to say. Later. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Brad? I was there for the Northridge quake, and yes, FEMA was there within hours. The current failure of FEMA and major disaster relief groups to effectively work together reminds me of what happened before/during/after Sept 11 with our so-called intelligence agencies. Here in Oregon, the Northwest Medical Team was ready to roll Monday, fully prepared to assist, ready to go to New Orleans or Biloxi, but were told by FEMA...DO NOT GO until WE tell you to. They finally got the 'OK' today to leave and head for New Orleans. Since when is it OK to wait so long to deploy emergency services? What idiot is making these decisions? Someone's head will roll, I just hope it isn't some poor overworked sucker who's just a pawn in someone's sick political hierarchy game. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Wow, the first time Brad and I agree I'm all for positive vibes and all, but there's a point that it's just too much. Mysteria, if you think anything about this process is going well, you are just deluding yourself. This is a disaster.. the disaster didn't occur when the hurricane hit, it occured when those poor people were abandoned. Even our president agrees that the response has been unacceptable. Kudos to him for saying that. The people at the convention center were TOLD to go there to wait. What does FEMA say? (Another quote from CNN)--Oh, we didn't know they were there until Thursday. Well! It was on the news Wednesday. Utter bull. People died because these people slacked off. Love's a lovely lad His bringing up is beauty Who loves him not is mad For I must pay him duty -Anonymous |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
" Marge, don't discourage the boy! Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel." Homer Simpson |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/neworleanssatellite/index.html An interesting look from the sky. |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Great link Sharon  |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
"Tourists and hotel managers alike condemned government officials for ignoring them.” http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168270,00.html Tourists? I remember a few years ago, the media showing people playing in the surf though they had been told repeatedly the storm was but a short hour or two away. It’s like a bad horror movie. As you watch it, you think to yourself: in fact that monster would starve because with all the warning signs to be seen no one is going into that cave, and yet they do. Simple question: to what extent are the people who discounted or ignored all warnings, (as one female official remarked on NPR: “We begged them to leave.”), responsible? |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Well, some people were actually unable to leave. I pity those people. But those who could have left, but didn't? Well... yeah, they carry lots of blame. I mean, it was a manditory evacuation, so they're basically breaking the law.. not to mention doing something incredably stupid. Yes, stupid. Not that they deserve the treatment they are getting now, but still.. Love's a lovely lad His bringing up is beauty Who loves him not is mad For I must pay him duty -Anonymous |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Not to denigrate those able-bodied who stayed, but why on earth didn't they just walk? They had time to procure cash, food, water, clothing, hygeine needs, and personal documents, bundle it all up in water resistant containers, and trek on out before the rains actually started. So I have to wonder why those able-bodied souls didn't do that, even with the warning of emminant danger? Surely they could've covered at least 20-40 miles a day. Were they so indoctrinated in the liberalistic governmental handouts owed to them, by the NAACP, CBC and liberal interest groups, that they chose instead to park their butts and wait for those governmental handouts? And then get all bent out of shape when the handouts weren't given to them in their personal timeframe? Where's the personal responsibility? Surely they had some provisions at their own residence. Surely they had some cash. Surely they had multiple pairs of socks and changes of clothing. |
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Tracey Member Elite
since 2001-08-29
Posts 2808where insanity meets breeding |
Regarding the tourists, I read something about one tourist that wanted to leave Saturday night but he couldn't get a flight because they'd all been cancelled. Also couldn't get a rental car because they were all gone. I guess people in that predicament had no choice. On the other hand, I also heard of a report of 2 young girls (from Canada I'm ashamed to say...trust me, we ain't all this stupid), who had heard of the warnings but still flew down!!! You can never win or lose |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Some of the tourists seen in the lines at the Superdome prior to the first rains were British and Australians in their young 20's, replete with large backpacks. Guess they weren't too keen on backpacking their way out of town. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
it always amazes me at how easy it is to sit on the sidelines and condemn those working in the trenches. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Chris.. I mean, how could you say that? Don't you see the proof everywhere that these people screwed up? It's not just me, it's all over the news, even the president says that what is happening is horrible. Its scary how delusional some people can be.. Ali.. "they chose instead to park their butts and wait for those governmental handouts?" So many people spend most of their lives living off of government handouts, why would this case be different? :P Love's a lovely lad |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Does anyone believe that any politician would have knowingly denied any, (it would certainly have been small by comparison), part of that effort currently being made to assist people, otherwise incapable, wanting evacuation before the hurricane struck? |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Thoussands of people had no resources or way to leave, and were told they'd be safe in the superdome, and expected they'd be safe at that convention center It's a fiasco, obviously, and I think everyone, including the government...got caught with their proverbial pants down and left in shock. Shock and dismay, bewilderment...these things slow us all down. The reaction time to this disaster proves to me that in a major disaster, you are on your own for maybe a week. I've heard that prediction hundreds of times, and have found it to be true. A few years back i was caught in 'the blizzard of the century' and it shut down DENVER for nearly a week, in spite of plow trucks being the norm for a winter city, we were all stuck when the snow fell nonstop for over 24 hours, and the city streets were buried underneath three feet of snow. I don't believe anyone really expected this kind of devastation, and it took a while for emergency response teams to gear up. Still, since it was forecast this was to be a category 4 or more? why wasn't a better response plan already in place BEFORE the event? We need to look closely at FEMA and all of our Emer agencies, to see where we can improve before the next disaster. But please, stop blaming the people who are already victims, and those who are caught trying to help with not much more than a bandaid in their hand when it's major surgery that is needed. As for the government...apologies accepted, you know you screwed up. But WE the people, are the government. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote:So the government screwed up by not responding quickly enough to give these people their handouts? I'm not saying that they couldn't do a better job than they are. I am saying that it's really easy to call them weak and futile when you're sitting in your home on your computer and not making the decisions. It's certainly your right to criticize our government and their actions, however. I would just remember that this catastrophe is worse than any for a very long time in its overall scope and it's quite likely that some people haven't been able to meet the challenge of it yet. You've felt overwhelmed before, I'm sure... and I'm postive there's more than one person who's NOT sitting in their home on their computer, who's trying to help these people, who is feeling overwhelmed as well. Finally - it irritates the hell out of me when people criticize in the time of crisis. Us focusing on those "politicizing" the situation are doing the same exact thing - turning it into a matter of politics instead of crisis. Focus on the crisis at hand and what can be done to alleviate it. When it's over and people are safe, then criticize. My 2 cents. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05242/562353.stm Link is for those who strongly believe the Feds sat on their hands with thumbs pointed upwards until 4 days after Katrina passed. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"it irritates the hell out of me when people criticize in the time of crisis" Well, it irritates the hell out of ME that people get mad that we point out the absolute disaster that this resonse was. Everybody believes this, even the PRESIDENT, so I don't see how you can say that I'm wrong for thinking this way. Love's a lovely lad His bringing up is beauty Who loves him not is mad For I must pay him duty -Anonymous |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Actually, President Bush clarified his disappointment to the response. It wasn't towards the rescue and relief efforts, but towards the breakdown of law and order, especially in greater New Orleans. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
if you see a man lying in the street, bleeding profusely from a stab wound, are you going to stand there and yell about how terrible it is that the ambulance hasn't got there yet, or are you going to soothe him and do your best to stem the flow of blood until the ambulance arrives? How comforting do you think it would be for him, while he's lying there dying, to hear you berate the hospital for its slow response in sending out the ambulance? Much more comfort for him, I believe, are solidarity and words of comfort instead of useless prattling statements stemming from anger. It's understandable and perfectly right to be upset, even angry... but there are times when it's far better to swallow that until the time is right for it. That time is not now. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
At the risk of seeming rude, and I willingly take that risk...this Q is posed to all who read/reply here in this thread or others: What did YOU personally do during the first 48 hours after seeing/hearing of the devastation? Did you jump into action? I am not saying you had to...just that, if you didn't do anything and you saw a need, how can you sit around and blast those who took more than two days to respond? Most of us can accept some level of blame for the slowness of aid to these people. For whatever reasons...be it personal problems, financial problems, we were delayed by shock, or always expecting the government to be there first? After this crisis settles down..and I expect that to be several weeks if not months, then we all need to reassess our personal as well as governmental emergency preparedness plans. Clearly, it isn't reasonable for anyone to expect that 'outside' help can arrive immediately, or maybe even in a timely manner, no matter how great the need. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
From Ali's link -- supposedly dated August 30: quote: Are you serious? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Why not apply the same amount of common sense to the government who has far more information than these people had? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: If you see a man lying on the street on a TV screen while listening to a government official saying 'everything's fine', when is it time to get angry? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Ali, can you get me a link to that clarification? Okay, I haven't looked for it yet, I guess I'm asking for an Alihandout instead of a government handout. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
In response to post 47 from Brad, yes they were serious. Having been raised during a very active hurricane season in coastal Texas, that was the warning to flooded residents of battered homes. Why you might ask? Structural integrity; airborne diseases; disease carrying rodents and mosquitos; rabid animals; raw sewage; oil and fuel slicks from submerged vehicles; waterborne bacteria, virii, ameobas and other pathogens; poisonous snakes and floating fire ant colonies; and the very real risk of going back inside, and getting trapped by floating or submerged debris with noone close by to hear the calls for help. Not to mention very fast currents and the possibility of fire from ruptured gas mains. Link? Sure thing. quote: Foxnews Source, dated 09/03/05 I listened to President Bush on Foxnews while he was surveying the damage, and am having some difficulty as well as finding his reference to the lawlessness. I know I did hear it though, just can't seem to find a full transcript. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Sorry, Ali, my bad. I should have made myself clearer. My point was that it is now, at least here, Sept. 4. My point was that the government seriously misunderestimated what was going on. My point is that there is no excuse for doing so. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Is ok, Brad, and I found the link you were wanting for clarification. And yes, the government on ALL levels underestimated the impact. A good chunk of people in the Gulf States underestimated the impact. Everyong underestimated the impact, as the impact of Katrina is mind boggling. Did you know that the remnants of Katrina, after it was downgraded to a TD, kept rotating through the Gulf Stream and into Canada? Granted, the rotation was very slow, but that sucker was still spinning. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
I’m reminded of my reading of the fall of France in 1940. How the Germans encouraged in their plans masses of refugees which were to hamper if not obstruct the efforts of the Allied professional armies in their maneuvers to meet and defend against the Nazi invasion. The Allies had failed to take into account the impact of so many who were not part of any coordinated effort except as obstacles to an efficient response to the crisis. There was a response in New Orleans by a local official to the effect that they were unprepared in dealing with people they did not know exist. Whether he was speaking to the number of those who ignored the evacuation orders, or the existence of a particular group, I’m uncertain. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4212684.stm “A number of UK survivors were critical of the British embassy.” |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"If you see a man lying on the street on a TV screen while listening to a government official saying 'everything's fine', when is it time to get angry?" AMEN! Listen, this IS AMERICA! People shouldn't be living that way here. We knew htis was coming, this wasn't news to us. Why weren't we ready? Why didn't our government manage to get down there sooner? Why did the NBC man manage to get down there before FEMA? These are serious questions, and you making up rhetorical crap isn't going to change this. I'm doing what I can to help, I'm broke myself but I'm doing what I can, ok? I j ust gave blood yesterday and I'm donating clothes to the Salvation army. If I WAS a government offical, I'd have the RESOURCES to do more. They should have done more. They should have done it faster. None of you who are blasting me dwell on the fact that PEOPLE DIED because the government was so slow. This is AMERICA, not Iran. If we don't stand up, outraged, it will just happen again. Love's a lovely lad |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Or because people wouldn’t listen. You are told the ship in a storm is in danger of sinking. Avenues and resources are provided for you to safely leave. You are asked, told, “begged” to do so. And what happens is others are condemned for not being quick enough to save you from harm off the stern of the ship, (the ship you chose to stay on), as it’s going down. There’s only so much others can do for those unwilling to do for themselves. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
You definently have a point about that, but even if all the people left who coul dhave, people would still be there. The area is very poor, and many people can't afford to leave. I definently agree that the people who could have left, and didn't, are basically stupid, but I don't think the government should let them starve.. Love's a lovely lad |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
The reporters got there before FEMA because they were already in the area. And now they have to persuade (literally almost threaten people) to come out of their homes and get to a safe place. You can't tie them up and drag them out...dropping food and water every few days...if they don't see the danger then they should not be crying about what the government isn't doing... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Who are 'they'? Yes, people are a pain in the ass. I'm not sure what the point is though. Except, perhaps, that those defending the troops on the ground by blaming the victim and those criticizing the government response are talking past each other. None of the points concerning stupidity make the government response any less reprehensible. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001052870 quote: This is not the fault of the soldiers. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Disturbing, Brad, but no more disturbing than the crap I've seen/heard the last few days.. and the most disturbing is that people get onto ME for being angry about it. Unbelievable.. Love's a lovely lad |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Perhaps, some of you saw this? http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Meet-the-Press-Broussard.mov |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Emergency Prepardness, New Orleans Caution, that page is very long, but contains all the Emergency Prepardness orders and proceedures for New Orleans, and was created long before Katrina was even chosen for a name. It is abundantly clear from reading this that the local and state governments in Louisiana failed in their obligations to their citizens prior to and immediately after Katrina hit New Orleans. They waited until the day before LA landfall to issue emergency orders, when they had several days prior, the same timeframe in which President Bush declared the Gulf States state of emergency and urged Governor Blanco to evacuate everyone. And they had the use of school buses, but the only one used was one commandeered by a citizen, who then used it to rescue 70 people and took them to Houston, which he found out about on the bus radio. Plaquemines Parish, just south of NO, used school buses and evacuated everyone. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
from an article in the Guardian: quote: |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Editorial response to FEMA and Mr. Bush by The Times-Picayune. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/times.picayune.editorial/index.html "Despite the city's multiple points of entry, our nation's bureaucrats spent days after last week's hurricane wringing their hands, lamenting the fact that they could neither rescue the city's stranded victims nor bring them food, water and medical supplies...Yet, the people trained to protect our nation, the people whose job it is to quickly bring in aid were absent. Those who should have been deploying troops were singing a sad song about how our city was impossible to reach." Love's a lovely lad His bringing up is beauty Who loves him not is mad For I must pay him duty -Anonymous |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Guess they didn't know about New Orlean's Emergency Prepardness which I posted a bit earlier. The anonymous author of that open letter naturally went after President Bush instead of his/her/its own Governor, state legislators, state representatives, and local authorities. Where's the Chief of Police? Where's most the police? What did the Mayor do aside from rant? Why was the school bus depot full of school buses? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
How do mistakes made at the local level absolve the feds? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
The mayor is a real cookie. The feds can’t be expected to make everything okay immediately and regardless. They would have to be constantly hovering over us just to know what was going on and no one would be happy with that. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Well, let's review. The federal government cannot just declare martial law. Only Congress has that authority on the federal level. President Bush asked Governor Blanco for permission to put New Orleans under emergency federal jurisdiction, which Governors can do. Request denied. President Bush did what he could within the confines of the law. The federal government is barred from just jumping into state responsibilities without the express permission of that state. State Rights vs Federal Rights. State governments are responsible for activating and deploying their Army National Guard units and can request augmentation from other states as outlined in the governor commission rules (I forget what the meeting of all governors is called). Coast Guard is semi-automimous, being both military and police, but everything else has to be requested by that state. This includes Navy, Air Force, Marines, Army, and their reserve components. The military just can't swoop in under federal auspices without explicit consent by the state. That is banned in accordance with federal and military law and regulations. Keep in mind that though things were staged by FEMA and emergency response units, some of those staged items were damaged by Katrina, then roads had to be cleared, and some things straight up had to be brought in by boat or airlifted due to damaged bridges, destroyed roads, and extensive flooding. Yes, there were some screwups on the federal side of things. There were a magnitude of screwups on the state level. Who's more culpable/incompetent? Didn't we already discuss the issue of State vs Federal 140 year ago? [This message has been edited by Alicat (09-05-2005 12:01 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I sure wouldn't mind validation of that story, and not from the AP if you don't mind. They've printed too many erroneous stories already, most caught and corrected by the notorious FoxNews. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I always knew that Wal-Mart would save the world  |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“But the BBC's Richard Greene says he met several people who were determined to stay behind.” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4214232.stm Even now. So what do you do? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Ali, That's just part of the transcript from "Meet the Press". See the above link. If you have time, please listen to it, or if you want I can post the video. If you want me to try to corroborate every statement he made, well, that's going to take some time. I do know that the Red Cross was barred from the city for a while -- the sniper thing. The point of that quote, though, was that the local governments, with whatever mistakes they may have made, expected the national government to step in. I expected the national government to step in (from personal experience, not political leanings), and that just didn't happen. Blame the local governments all you want. I would be surprised if that didn't make any mistakes. Blame past administrations if you want, I don't care. But it doesn't change the point that people expected the FEMA and the Feds to help and they didn't. They said everything was fine. It wasn't. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
One thing that damn sure slowed down any rescue efforts was the snipers shooting at the rescuers. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
People are still insisting on staying. They should be forcably removed and taken to a safe place, because, obviously, they do not have the mental capacity to act on behalf of their own safety. And, I'm not condoning anyone to turned to violence, but when you let people starve for a week, its not going to be pretty. Music pours over the sense And in a funny way Music sees more than I..it remembers better... I have forgotten all the rest-Anne Sexton |
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vlraynes Member Rara Avis
since 2000-07-25
Posts 8229Somewhere... out there... |
The looting and other violence started on the first day, Erica... and?...
Right after we get BUSY, doing everything we can to help... Just my opinion, of course... [This message has been edited by vlraynes (09-05-2005 09:59 PM).] |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
"obviously, they do not have the mental capacity to act on behalf of their own safety." Anyone care to field that? “NEW ORLEANS — New Orleans police officers are moving through the Hurricane Katrina (search)-devastated city and trying to get thousands of residents who have resisted moving to leave, a deputy police chief said Monday.” http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168507,00.html ......................................... "But it doesn't change the point that people expected the FEMA and the Feds to help and they didn't." Sounds like God without the threat of Hell if you don't shut up. So what, we now have a new religion? [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (09-05-2005 04:50 PM).] |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"Right after we get BUSY, doing everything we can to help..." Well, I don't know, I'd rather hear about what to do to make the reponse better than to hear everyone brag about what they have done to help, how we're all little angels. And huan.. what are you even talking about in your last statement? |
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vlraynes Member Rara Avis
since 2000-07-25
Posts 8229Somewhere... out there... |
"Well, I don't know, I'd rather hear about what to do to make the reponse better than to hear everyone brag about what they have done to help, how we're all little angels." If that's all you heard from my comment, Erica?... then you weren't listening... Nevermind... [This message has been edited by vlraynes (09-05-2005 10:00 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05bush.html quote: Politics is so political. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
http://mediamatters.org/items/200509020001 This is video clip of Sawyer's interview. You know, the one where Bush says: "nobody anticipated the breach in the levees." |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Well, I don't know, I've been nagged ever since this happened for just 'sitting around and complaining'. Well, I've done more than that, but i think the most important thing is to stand up and state that what happened wasn't right, that it was terribly wrong. And please spell my name right if you're going to scold me. Music pours over the sense |
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vlraynes Member Rara Avis
since 2000-07-25
Posts 8229Somewhere... out there... |
Okay.. first of all, Erica(?)... I sincerely apologize for spelling your name incorrectly... I guess it's been awhile... Secondly, I wasn't 'scolding' you... and thirdly... I don't believe I've ever 'nagged' you about anything... I was simply stating my opinion... I thought I was allowed... Sorry to have voiced my thoughts... and to have offended you... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Uh, guys, I think this was my fault. It's certainly a noble idea that we should all be above politics except when that noble idea becomes a political tool. look at this transcript from Fox news: quote: http://www.newshounds.us/ This would be funny if it weren't so tragic. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Hi everyone, just got back earlier from a Labor Day getaway with my grandparents on the Oregon coast in Lincoln City, where we rented a beachhouse and caught up on the times. Indeed Katrina was an omnipresent theme of discussion as we were together. My grandparents often like to consider themselves conservative Democrats, who agree with me on some issues like Iraq but disagree sharply on abortion, stem cell research and other issues like that. But it was great to be with them and find common ground on Katrina, where we all agreed the Bush Administration and FEMA's responses were very poor. ***** The more I've read and learned about this, I absolutely believe the government could have taken this so much more seriously and do more to prepare to aid the victims in this tragedy, and that our government has failed in this security response, and in result of the failure, there are a number of deaths, a significant number preventable, on FEMA's watch especially. Like I've said early in this thread, this hurricane couldn't have been stopped, and it was inevitable New Orleans, Biloxi, etc. would still be quite damaged, make no mistake of that reality. What's inexcusable is the demeanor our government in general had from when meteorlogists began to warn us that Katrina was breaking away from its predicted path along the western side of Florida's peninsula to after the storm had hit the coast hard and silence remained throughout homeland security. On FEMA's part, which I place the most blame in particular, they clearly stated in 2001, before 9/11, that the three most likely catastrophic events to occur were a hurricane hitting New Orleans,a terrorist attack in New York City and a major earthquake striking San Francisco. The following year, officials in New Orleans held a simulation of what would happen in a category 5 storm on the city, which detailed many of the same probabilities that truly happened in this storm. Later that year, on an edition of NOW! with Bill Moyers aired September 20, 2003, the emergency coordinator of Jefferson Parish reinsisted those claims: http://www.pbs.org/now/printable/transcript_neworleans_print.html So FEMA was well aware of what could happen. Yet, after the first warning from the National Weather Service on August 28th, after we learned of the changing trajectory of Katrina, after it even hit the city, FEMA failed miserably in responding. ***** As for the administration, one which I have admittedly criticized for a majority of things within the past two and a half years, well, Bush was busy comparing Iraq to World War II and learning to play country swing with Mark Wills, while Condoleezza Rice was busy ctaching a Broadway show and shopping for shoes on Fifth Avenue in New York City, after the storm hit the coast to begin with. ***** I think finger-pointing is justified here. Many of the victims and their families are just this angry, many feeling abandoned and left to fend for themselves. This is America after all, and what happened this past week just shouldn't be happening here. There's a deep concern that should be coming out from all this. The 2004 election season was largely rooted in which candidate would do the best job defending this great nation. This administration made a most successful effort and campaign in making the opposition appear incapable of making the nation safe. After this display, how could we feel so safe? This only makes this great nation look more vulnerable than ever to a future sort of attack, whether natural or terrorist-related, and that if the government seriously believes it did all it could in responding to this, this is the exact same speed they will respond to whatever may come next. I believe in light of that I have every right to be most critical of the performance on their parts. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Here's a load of questions that I'd certainly like to hear FEMA officials respond to: ***** 1) http://news.ft.com/cms/s/84aa35cc-1da8-11da-b40b-00000e2511c8.html Why did they refuse to accept Amtrak's help in preparing evacuations? 2) http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/5/105538/7048 Why did they turn away experienced firefighters/doctors? 3) NY Times article about Coast Guard and Wal-Mart Why did they turn away Wal-Mart's offer to offer supply trucks, as well as prevent the Coast Guard from delivering fuel? 4) http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm Why'd they prevent the Red Cross from delivering food? 5) http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817& ;amp;PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6 Why'd they block morticians from entering the city? 6) http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0509040369sep04,1,4144 825.story?ctrack=1&cset=true Why didn't they work to fully prepare a Navy ship with a 600-bed hospital on board? 7) http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2011979.story?coll=chi-ne ws-hed Why'd they only request one single truck from Chicago? 8) http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html Why'd they turn away offers for back-up generators? 9) http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470 Generally speaking, why are they insisting responders not to do so? ***** It almost seems to me FEMA is doing more in preventing help from coming than allowing help in coming. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa Edited: Gave NY times link a name to shorten hyperlink space. [This message has been edited by Alicat (09-06-2005 12:48 AM).] |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Beaurocracy and confusion. Add in red tape from federal, state and local beaurocracy and Congressional laws and mandates. Boil and then put in deep freeze. Serve cold. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I think you summarized it well enough here, Alicat! Indeed I've also learned how disastrous the credentials of their director Michael Brown is, who seemed to have little if no experience in national security whatsoever, and in fact the last thing he was known for was his role as commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association...and he was fired there. This man should be fired...period...for this most inappropriate delayed response that has cost the preventable lives of dozens in Louisiana and Mississippi. I hope Bush (who I also find deeply at fault in this) comes to his senses, backs away from the "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." rhetoric and sees to it effective, trustworthy leadership is assigned to control to the department. Now, I'm already well aware that Bush is not the kind of person who likes to fire anyone, perhaps because he's a Cancer, and Cancers are known for being very "family-oriented", where they are often most reluctant to soar beyond the family nest and childhood home in the task of becoming ones own individualistic spirit. In case of politics, he may always be reluctant to reject or dismiss those who share political or business links to him. But the fact is, I believe Bush should either reform the leadership of the agency, or he is bound to face an even greater creedibility downfall which is already staggering beyond much reason. Speaking of the White House, where's Cheney? Oh right, NOW he is putting an end to his vacation and cancelling his trip to Alberta, after spending the weekend preparing to buy a new house on the shore of Maryland. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
My purpose for starting this thread was to awaken people to the delayed response time of our government/FEMA, Red Cross and others, before and after Katrina. What has happened here is a disgrace to our nation…and the most frightening part of this is…if there is (and there will be) another terrorist attack, will Bush wait to get approval from Congress before he makes a decision to get in there with relief for our injured and dying. Not to mention, for me, it sure does open a can of worms for me, verifying what I had suspected, that we are no safer then we were before 9/11. Our Commander in Chief & Congress, Federal agencies, plus the leaders of Louisiana, knew Katrina was coming and what her effects would/could be? It was said, the President, cut his 28 day vacation short…to get back to Washington and work on relief efforts for Katrina. Why didn’t he cut his vacation short, knowing full well, that this hurricane might be a disaster and return before hand, to organize The PLAN WE HAVE IN PLACE, of which he speaks of so often & confidently? When you take the position of President, of the US…you vow to work “for the people”. It’s his JOB; it’s why he was elected. If he can’t handle cutting his vacation short, getting back to Washington before a disaster occurs, making certain every detail of his PLAN is in Place, then what are we paying him and his administration for? A leader sometimes has to make unpopular decisions…which will always be open for opinion/criticism, but a good leader (s) do not stand around with their thumbs up their butts, waiting for approval to get in there and rescue human life…period. If the President, could go against the vote of the United Nations, and go to war then I hardly think it appropriate to let him slide on getting the approval from Congress to get in there and help those people. As far as it being difficult to get in there, you do whatever it takes to get there! We have helicopters, that could drop boats by the dozens, along with men, amphibians, supplies, make shift Mash tents, buses, standing ready to deploy & bring those people out of that living hell. There is no excuse for the delay in the rescue of these people which should have been orderly, effective and efficiently deployed immediately after the hurricane. Our commander in chief, didn’t even return from his vacation until a day after the hurricane left…of course FEMA was standing there waiting for an ok? Nothing was ready; everyone was standing around waiting for direction to deploy. Matter of fact, locals responded quicker then any agency…local police stood their ground, and many rescues were performed by civilians in their boats…why a couple from Northeast US went down there and were assisting people getting off the local helicopters, that were already in there picking people off of their roofs way before Bush even got involved. It took 4 or 5 days before he deployed that huge white, Navel Medical ship headed for New Orleans, and on Thursday, heard them say it would take an additional 7 days for that ship to get there??? Unacceptable! Again…A good leader moves and acts and thinks about criticism later….and as far as the head of FEMA, Brownie…well, the man will take the heat for all this and probably loose his job. Did anyone notice the Presidents angry stares at him, during that first press conference, I mean to tell ya, Bush was pissed, then at the end, said, Brownie, good job? We’ve become a milk fed nation, unfortunately, and it is beyond me, why, the governor and state legislatures, didn’t demand all those area school buses were not used to take out all poverty stricken people. Instead, they (those buses) were left behind to float. If this is an example of leadership…then I hate to think about what’s going on in the war? Yes, it was very difficult to get in there b/c of the flooding situation, but when that levy broke, well, they knew it was going to do so, but the Commander in Chief still chose to go on vacation, didn’t he? And all those officials, stood back and watched and waited for it to happen? Yanno, there is a lot wrong with this country…we’ve lost something due to political correctness, and that is this…people are afraid to make decision…and I don’t want to hear that this happened b/c of skin color…white or black, this would have still happened…it wasn’t about class or skin color, it was though, indeed about unprepardness, lack of initiative for fear of making decision and having NO PLAN IN PLACE! And I’m going to add another point of view…we’ve been thrashed in these United States for many years by hurricanes…yet, they never learn…how many times has Florida been rebuilt? The cost to taxpayers has been billions & billions of dollars and yet, instead of demanding strict coastal codes for everyone who builds a home along the ocean, they continually build frame houses, that cannot withstand these types of storms, & continually restring above ground wires? I’m very sorry to all those who have lost loved ones in this tragedy, who have suffered the fear and degradation of what those people had to endure in the Astro Dome, and I fear & pray, it will not take us to much longer to start learning from history...it’s very important to point fingers and blame in this instance, when many lives could have been lost and could have been saved... |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
May I please say that I do agree with those angered, it is important to put the blame where it belongs, and when the time is right a committee will be set up to do just that, I only hope the government does not investigate their own screw up. I hear the President, Senators, tons of officials complaining, and to be honest I really think an independent investigation is needed for this baby to be truly analyzed properly, and the blame put where it rightfully should go. It has to be put somewhere for darn sure! Right now, I think it is really important for every single person that can do something, just gets busy and does it! If it is only the smallest contribution to help solve this disasterous situation its important, otherwise you can easily become a part of the problem, instead of part of its solution. There are still so many lives at stake to be saved. I admire every single person that has stayed to help those that won't leave for whatever reason they have. I admire those that lend a smile to those trapped somewhere, and helped make them through that minute or hour of their pain. The volunteers are incredible in the Gulf Coast, and I highly respect those American people rising to the plate in this disaster. I see them all having the very same sores on their faces and legs as those victimized and you can help but tear up. I think the government is well aware they screwed up, as is FEMA, and it will be taken care of when the time is right. I for one don't think this is the time to worry who the heck made the mistakes, just get in there and fix it! I can't help but wish that Bill Clinton was still your President, honestly I do, and am so glad he is part of the solution this time anyway. Carpe diem ~ Horace Live Like You Were Dying ~ Tim McGraw [This message has been edited by Mysteria (09-06-2005 04:01 PM).] |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I personally believe (and believe most will agree with me on this) that the photographs of the victims and their families, the anger, despair and loss in their eyes and faces, explains the seriousness of this issue better than any reporter and press conference out there. ***** Lee, you are absolutely correct. That's exactly what I believe the main issue is here. Bush swore an oath on his Inaugural Day. He swore to protect our great nation, as well as our Constitution and liberties which I also believe he has greatly taken for granted. Remember the election last year? One of the greatest questions of last year's election was who would do a better job keeping this country safe? The Bush campaign did a wonderful job making the Kerry campaign look weak, spending millions and millions in portraying their opposition as soft on terrorism, defense and incapable and unfit of keeping our country safe from terrorism, etc. Now I'm certainly not saying that if we had a different president now that he was guaranteed to do any better, only God knows the answer. What I'm saying here is that many Americans who voted for Bush November 2nd of last year did so because, frankly, Bush gained their confidence and trust that he would do everything in his power to defend this great nation by all means necessary. Of course I've believed since the war in Iraq began personally that he was doing likewise in that this war would only incite the region and make us less safe, thus never won me over in that he'd do just that, but millions found his leadership long after 9/11 to be solid, strong, dependable, and were counting on what they saw in him during his first term to keep coming in the second term. Look at how Fox News and them always ask the public to stand up and cheerlead the war in Iraq everytime a school or hospital is built or re-opened. Yet they're still struggling now to do just that right here at home, even when FEMA warned before 9/11 that a hurricane hitting New Orleans is one of three worst theorized disasters on America, even after New Orleans officials simulated what would happen if a hurricane hit the region, even after Witt warned this March that the Department of Homeland Security was spending too much time obsessing over terrorism and very little attention on hurricanes. You know what Katrina proves? It proves that if our homeland security remains just as it is and there is no great reform, the government is only going to fail us again in the event of another hurricane of this magnitude, another terrorist attack, anything like that. ***** How can I possibly believe in, hold trust or support this administration after this? Frankly, the government only have themselves to blame for badly damaging our confidence in counting on or relying on whoever is running the White House, perhaps for years to come. In fact, I believe it's a given these politics are going to poison this administration for the rest of Bush's second term. If Bush wants to become a country music star, that's absolutely fine, I respect that and he should go ahead and follow that dream. But if he's spending time under the ultimate responsibility of working "for the people" strumming his guitar away while New Orleans is drowning, that is utterly irresponsible, selfish, and, frankly, inexcusable beyond all means. And if all Bush can say in response is that "It's hard work!", perhaps he just shouldn't and doesn't deserve to be our president. ***** As for the Department of Homeland Security, well, their mission should and simply be to defend this great nation, no matter if you're west or east of the Mississippi, bordering Canada or Mexico, or living along the coast or living in the middle of the country. How could we trust those like Chertoff to be worthy of filling the highest seats of this department when his excuse to this tragedy and their failure to respond is, "Louisiana is a city that is largely underwater!" I can't decide if I have heard everything up to this point or not.  Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Noah, yes, indeed, points well taken...but, as corrupt as this nation is, it will take much more then attack any one candidate for President including our present commander in cheif. As some of you may know, it takes action to make changes...and our purpose, responsibility to our nation, it's people, does not stop upon voting...but making certain these guys do their jobs they've been hired for and stop the bull...lining their pockets with our money...pork barrel spending...etc. Catering only to the whims of political groups who fund their campaigns. If it doesn't stop, well, we take away vital needs of everyone...every decission and action has a direct ripple effect on all of us. Yanno, I don't care if our leaders wear 700.00 suits, or have some elaborate parties in our Whitehouse, using company plains, helecopters, and the tax payers money for vacations and high end furniture, fashion, etc....costing thousands and thousands of tax payers dollars?...what I care about is getting the job done! Hiring people who are humble and considerate, loyal not to political byoffs by corporations and lobiests, for campaigns...but loyal to the people of this country. And I'm very tired of political correctness...hypocrates who protect murderes, theives, lobyists, judges who instead of throwing rediculous law suits out of court, paid off by corrupt attorneys spending our tax dollars to get these criminals off the hook? This corruption remains deep and alive within the American culture... and Sharon, you are absolutely right in your comment...I've calmed down some...thanks to you my friend...as I thought about your comment last evening. Thank you! I suppose my point in this thread, although very angry about how those people in New Orleans were treated, proved to be a perfect example of the so called PLANS our government and president claim are securly tact. They're not, and the monies for Homeland Security is being given to locals in each state...for instance...a garbage company asked Homeland Security for money for new trucks, claiming if there is a disaster, they would need garbage trucks to clean up the bodies...and I kid you not...so, money was given to this particular trash collection company, and they purchased all new trucks, and that's just one example???? Adding, this was not about race...this was about, our leaders standing there, full well knowing people were in trouble and didn't know what to do with their positions to get things done. It's not about one person, but all those leaders starting from the top and working down to state leaders. They didn't do they're jobs b/c they didn't know how! So, no matter who would have been living there, it would have happened anyway. It is not about race, of that I'm certain. We point blankly didn't have the knowledge, the plan, or the communication to get in there immediately and get things done. We didn't have a leaders confident enough to say...lets get going and start organizing! What happened regarding Katrina is over, but...it should prove a vital example of how we do NOT have ANY PLANS IN PLACE...IF A COUNTRY CANNOT TAKE CARE OF IT'S OWN? These guys are sitting around with their thumbs in their mouths...not able to perform they're jobs..period. We've got so so many projects and problems here, starting with our infostructure. Our county is falling apart, stealing from it's own people in price gouging, taking money and robbing Peter to Pay Paul. The erosion of moral ethics of the people of this country actually believing they deserve to recieve a paycheck when they are incapable of doing they're jobs. Bad behavior and work ethics are being rewarded, companies are wasting hords of money b/c they can't do they're jobs and spend millions of dollars on consultants to come in and tell them what to do? We continue to fail to get people off of dependencies of welfare, drugs, alcohol, our homeless, by instituting educational systems across the board for these people. We've got the technologies, knowledge and resources to do so...except, everyone thinks they deserve more and more money...our prisons are so full, they allow murderers, rapists and child molesters back on the streets? And when a government is corrupt, so to will your people be. We do not have the means of correcting these issues, b/c people have been divided by political parties, and stoop to buying votes to win...so what do we win? Corruption and the inability to care and rebuild infosttructure, both in resources and people. so, I let this rest, and hopefully the hurricane victims will survive, with time, help from us, government assistance, and counseling... Our country is growing...population explossion due to immigration which isn't controlled. We've got to stop allowing people to think just because they come over here to live, they don't have to be a working member of society, and give them everything for free. That builds and stagnates growth and care for being a team member of society...we've got to once again bring work/jobs back into the US...instead of being so gready, that everything is made in other countries. We've become a very weak nation, both in our military, moral ethics, and individuality...it's not working this way, and if we let it continue, we are in for ruin and threat of more and more terrorists attacks, more brutal then anyone can imagine, b/c the rich get richer and the poor become thrown aside and forgotten. Our work has taken up a collection of soap, tooth paste, tooth brushes, hand towels, washcloths, mouth wash, shampoo and cream rinse, deordarents, diapers, baby clothes, and other clothing items, which is going to be trucked down to New Orleans and surrounding areas by one of our companies employee's husband's 18 wheeler. Sharon, it brings releaf to my heart, to see all the collections in progress around my area up here in PA...and Philadelphia, as well as, other cities have opened their doors to the homeless, hopefully giving them new homes, apartments, small houses...fully furnished...so as to enable them a new start. There are so so many of those people who want to relocate and work... Also, another purpose for this thread, was to enlighten folks to demand, that severe codes be enforced, when building a home along a coastal areas. If we're going to rebuild these cities, spending our tax dollars, after they've been demolished by hurricans, then we'd better come up with a plan, to ensure better structures and utility operations to withstand hurricans. On the islands, they build they're homes with concrete cinder blocks and they are beautiful...one home I visited, survived hurricane Floyde...with the exception of it's roof, the rest of the home was still standing with only salt water damage. It was build by an American, who used round stones from the property and concrete, and was located 150 to 200 feet from the ocean. So I ask you, what better proof? If and when a hurricane hits, at least the homes and communication wires might withstand powerful storms with minimal damages...no more coastal frame homes...and start installing underground wires instead of telephone poles and rebuilding something that isn't working? It's ludicris to do so, isn't it? Just think of the long run effects, and not immediate gratifications...meaning, if we build houses this way, then in the long run, the ripple effect will be to our advantage, meaning less damages, less monies insurance companies would have to pay, which should ensure, in the long run, a better cost effective relief, all the way around... good things are happening now...and it will indeed take years to recover...as it did 9/11...but, for once in our lives, can we please learn from history? I hope so, I pray so. Many thanks to all of you for bearing with me, for reading and for allowing my foolish rant...I'll shut up now  thanks be to Ron for this forum and to all of you for your patience, kindness and for allowing an old fool to add her input. [This message has been edited by LeeJ (09-07-2005 08:30 AM).] |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“New Orleans Mayor: Leave or We'll Drag You Out” http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168644,00.html “The more recent evacuation move — which supersedes an earlier, milder order to evacuate made before Hurricane Katrina crashed ashore Aug. 29 — comes after rescuers scouring New Orleans found hundreds of people willing to defy repeated urgings to get out. Dennis Rizzuto, 38, said he had plenty of water, food to last a month and a generator powering his home. He and his family were offered a boat ride to safety, but he declined. "They're going to have to drag me," Rizzuto said.” The number even now is estimated at 10,000. And I can see the lawyers lining up. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
someone is going to get hurt as a result of this...and I don't mean, out of office, this is going to serioulsy get someone killed, I fear. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
well, so far, so good, been listening up and the outpoor of donations in all kinds of ways have been extremely forthgiving. And Mysteria, you were right, one should consentrate on the all the good that is coming out of this....and I certainly do understand why people must be forced out of their homes, heard on the news this morning that the water being pumped out, is so toxic, if you touch it, it will make you sick. But...I have a new concern...all that awful water being pumped out into the lake? What will it do to the lake's ecology, not to mention, the water table. Where I used to live in the Poconos, I was on the board of directors in charge of the lake in our community. In doing a lot of research, had the opportunity to learn from a biologist, that we at this point in time, have no way of knowing, how long chemicals stay in the ground...kind of a scary thought. Now I know there is nothing else can be done, other then to pump that water into containment trucks and have it cleaned before dumping it, which would be an astronomical cost, not to mention, probably take much much longer to accomplish. Anyway, thanks to all of you for chimming in on this thread, the rant helped and so has Sharon....hugs to you all. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
That mandatory evacuation Nagin is calling for is just wrong to me. From what I've heard, most of the approximately ten-thousand who are still in the city are elderly citizens, who feel most attached to their house, their properties, their memories. Look, I think it is pretty stupid personally to want to stay there when there is so much disease in the water, snipers and other crime happening in the city, and a lack of functioning services everywhere. Add to that if that you're raising a family right now in New Orleans at this time, you're putting your children at enormous risk, especially health-wise. But Nagin should understand that here in America, you have a choice, and their right to stay should be respected, as idiotic as it may be. And, yes, Lee is absolutely correct that quite a few can get killed in this process. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
(hugs) Oh, Lee, yes, being one who has took the environment to heart immensely, it can be so tough to look at all the dark waters and not have your eyes tear up. Here are some articles that do a great job explaining the environmental impact down there: (From CBC) http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/09/06/floodwater_environment_200509006.html (From Reuters) http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/health_dc;_ylt=AoMjw9IOjNg_gG8fCFra4Gms0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ-- (From Christian Science Monitor) http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0908/p01s01-usgn.html (From NPR) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4836440 *** Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hi Noah, I heard this morning about the water down there being so toxic, that if you touch it, you'll get sick, so...I'm processing this, thinking the last thing we need is an outbreak of collera and more deaths? So, perhaps it best they do force those people out, it is in their best interest...thanks hun for the links. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
thank you |
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