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American Legion: Declaring War On Dissent?

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Mistletoe Angel
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25 posted 08-28-2005 11:40 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Bradley, with all due respect, I'm just that kind of person who tries to see the world more in gray than in black and white, with just enough of a tint to make distinguishments of what makes us unique and different.

In other words, I just don't believe in labeling one person "good" and one person "evil". I agree very much with what Cindy Sheehan is doing in her protests, but I disagree with her in that she referred to Bush as "evil". Like I said before, I don't believe Bush is evil or a terrorist, I simply believe he is dangerously misguided and ignorant about foreign policy and his war practices are getting us in much more trouble than he can begin to believe.

I can't tell if you were just joking around or not on that last comment, but I certainly don't believe what I'm doing is evil by definition by any means. I am disciplining my protests in a moral manner. I'm not hurting or harming anyone in the process of what I'm doing, rather trying to save lives. The emotions that fill my protests are not out of malice or hatred but of concern and responsibility.

I believe what I'm doing is most morally upright. I just don't want more innocent people to be killed just because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are many lives that'll be lost should this war press on that can be prevented should this war find its end as soon as possible. I don't want a culture which 60% is populated by children 14 years old or younger further inflamed under anger and hatred and fear. I believe my actions are only trying to prevent all these preventable things from happening further.

Again, I'm not sure if you were joing or not, but if you do consider my actions evil, I calmly dismiss your accusation and can say here in America I am happy to always openly give you the right to label me any number of things from idiot to evil. I believe we're all more or less ignorant ever so often throughout our lives, for we are all human and we all keep learning things everyday no matter how old we are. As for the evil comment, I don't understand where you may be led to believe how my actions deserve that label if you meant it, but either way I'm always glad to talk over these issues with you!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Huan Yi
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26 posted 08-28-2005 11:51 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


List any and all American wars
that should not have been avoided.
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27 posted 08-29-2005 02:41 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

1) The American War for Independence
2) the War of 1812 where the British tried to take back the States
3) the War with the Barbary Pirates (... To the Shores of Tripoli)
4) The Civil War (Keep the Union together and -late in the war- end slavery in the US)
5) WWI (to keep America's shipping ventures free from harm)
6) The Banana Wars- Enforce the Monroe  Doctrine
7)WWII- uh... Jews and Japan, anyone???
8) Korea (not a war)- the UN decided to take action, and since we were part of the UN and it was the UN's first test of strength and resolve, we needed to be there.
9)Gulf I (not a war)- if we do not assist our allies, and back the UN, then we have no standing in the world
10) Gulf II (not a war)- agin.. the UN stated it, and we had to abide by it to keep the UN a viable force.

Good enough???

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Huan Yi
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28 posted 08-29-2005 02:21 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/hall_schweizer200508290810.asp


As if their fathers couldn't tell 'em
it would be coming.
Mistletoe Angel
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29 posted 08-29-2005 03:06 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Huan Yi, in response to this latest article you've provided, firstly I will say that you know well what I think of Ward Churchill and like-minded extreme left professors that don't make up the majority opinion of campus students nationwide, who Churchill shares the same tactics Fonda did in spinning propaganda and hate speech to this great country.

About the article, I already strongly disagree that there is a vast "liberal elitist media" influencing many of these campus student's opinions.

I also believe that many of these campus activists are understandably protesting campus recruiters. I believe most of them would agree that the problem is not them just coming to visit to begin with; the problem is how some of them are exploiting these visits in demanding principals and professors hand over entire records to officials without permission from the student and parent of each one listed.

I believe that's the prime reason there has been vast protests against military recruitment nationwide; they fear that just this wrongful tactics are being used in trying to persuade brave, young men and women to consider a future serving this great nation through military service. In many minds who have learned about these incidents of some recruiters gathering entire records from schools, they fear its setting the stage for a wider backdoor draft or something along those lines.

I'm all for military officials visiting college campuses and high schools to hold a little assembly, make a little speech and get young people to know about the benefits a military career can offer young Americans. That's not what I have a problem with. I just have a problem with these officials exploiting these visits in the intent to usurp whole records without the consent of these students and parents. And given the situation right now, I can't help but not blame them in being nervous that some officials would indeed exploit their visits to their campuses.

A majority of parents nationwide feel just the same way. You have to understand that the student and the parent deserve to have a say as well.

Rest assured that most liberals have not "adopted" this mantra that though we don't agree with this war, we support our young men and women wholeheartedly; we believe in this notion wholeheartedly. I believe there are indeed many, if not most, recruiters who aren't using these exploitive methods. But all recruiters must understand that in supporting our young men and women wholeheartedly, you have to remember there's more than just the soldier, there's also the young man or woman in the uniform, and every young man and woman should have the full right to decide.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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30 posted 08-29-2005 05:25 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Naoh- having read that article, then you know the type of protesters that I was talking about in my earlier rant. As we all know, you are not one of them, and you do not feel that the vets are... what did she call him? a "disgusting human being"?...
While, we- again- disagree on the issues, I do NOT agree with the way that you do so, and the way you compose yourself when you discuss these issues.

However, I hope that I do not meet any of these protesters, due to the fact that I have a neighbor who was killed in Iraq, a friend who was severely injured, and a roommate who is leaving shortly for in-country. I have a short fuse when it comes to defending my friends and my family, and... well, anyhow...

The article proves that these young men and women are not what they are being called, and are, in fact, the finest type of human beings the nation can produce. While it takes nothing to be shot at- except being in the wrong job in the wrong place at the wrong time- keeping your cool under fire, and putting it all on the line for those around you shows character beyond any human expectation.

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31 posted 08-29-2005 06:08 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
While walking to class one day, McCormick stopped to listen to a speaker during an antiwar student rally. When he challenged the protestor’s arguments, the “peace” activist sneered, “The Iraqis don’t want us there. If you think the war is okay, then why don’t you go and serve!”

There was an obvious problem with the protestor’s retort: He had no clue who he was talking to — -Silver Star recipient Marine corporal Armand McCormick.


I would have loved to have seen that. It's not clear however if McCormick responded with, "I did," or not.

However, the essay doesn't even attempt to back up its point, does it?

Is there a conspiracy of liberal professors and anti-war activists to get rid of recruiters on US campuses? I don't know and I didn't learn anything from that essay.

The point, of course, is that dissent hurts the troops at home and abroad . . . .

The ellipsis, a shrug perhaps, is intended to get people fired up and let them do what they do. Many people have short fuses.

Yet, it avoids the question that surrounds this thread and the one that I thought was a corrolary.

1. Is dissent treason in time of war?

2. Are we in a war where the freedom to dissent should be temporarily suspended until hostilities have ended?

Somehow, the distinction that Ringo wants to make here, I think, would be a distinction without a difference for many short fused people.


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32 posted 08-29-2005 07:31 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I have to laugh every time I read the phrase "elite mainstream media".

is it elite?  or is it mainstream?
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33 posted 08-29-2005 08:05 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


I read an interesting question on another site.
Someone asked: given what the soldiers are basically currently doing:
protecting civilians, training security forces, and rebuilding
infrastructure, what is being protested now?
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34 posted 08-29-2005 08:09 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Being jaded is easy when medicated.  I think they keep protesting in the hopes of a book deal and a Lifetime Original movie.
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35 posted 08-29-2005 08:39 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
given what the soldiers are basically currently doing:
protecting civilians, training security forces, and rebuilding
infrastructure, what is being protested now?



Hey, the war's over, bring'em home!


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36 posted 08-29-2005 10:19 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

lol, alicat...

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37 posted 08-30-2005 12:38 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

While I've been shaking my head over most of the last few posts on this thread, I could go listing dozens of reasons why protests keep happening, which have nothing to do with the soldiers but the greed of this administration, the politicians who sent them there:

*****

1) The ongoing and growing casualties there under their watch, with this August being the deadliest month for our troops since the war began 29 months ago. In addition, the needless tens of thousands of deaths of Iraqi civilians, tens of thousnads more injuries.

2) The manner in which the administration continues to change the story of why we keep fighting in Iraq, first using false information that weapons of mass destruction were there, then after the claims were proven false claim it was because Saddam was a bad guy, then after saying they didn't watch elections there, they bowed to pressure from al-Sistani to do just that in January. Then after eight million Iraqis went to vote but couldn't quell the violence and approval ratings continued to fall, they claim it was to bring democracy to the region. Now they claim it is to offer constitutional rights to the region. And the story and excuses continues...

3) Bush just doesn't have a plan, or if he does he just isn't making it clear whatsoever. No one seems to know what the plan is over there, all our young men and women are down there vulnerable, not being guided by what the objective clearly is, ever so vigilant to just respond defensively to the insurgency attacks.

4) The polarizing rhetoric that Bush has and continues to wedge on the American people, first with the "Either you're with us or against us" slogan and now the slogan that protesters actions are advocating a policy that weakens the U.S.

5) Iraq was not a nation that attacked us on 9/11, yet Bush and company keep up the lies linking them to 9/11 tirelessly and defend the ongoing mission there.

6) The double standard that Bush has employed on the war on terror. While he focuses all his attention one brutal dictator and keeps justifying it was right to remove him because he was a dictator, he hasn't shown that same response toward other places ruled by dictators that sponsor terrorism just as bad as Saddam's like Uzbekistan, which remains often considered an ally on the war on terror.

7) While during the election season Bush was concerned about nuclear proliferation, he has allowed nuclear-capable F-16's to be shipped to Pakistan again, while also calling for more nuclear power plants to be built, which stopping nuclear proliferation is one of the single most crucial missions to stopping the worst possible terrorist attacks.

8) The continuing effort to shove the United States further and further away from the international community.

9) Billions and billions continue to go needlessly to this invasion, with billions unknowing of exactly where they're going/missing which could have gone to providing health coverage and education for children, etc.

10) The Iraq war is damaging and weakening our own security forces necessary to defend our country. With most of them preoccupied in this senseless war, our country is more vulnerable to an attack with them over there and not here as the defensive army they should be.

*****

Surely I can go on listing more and more reasonable reasons me and others keep protesting this war built on smoke and mirrors, just don't have all the time right now, but you get the general picture here. I'm just completely baffled and amazed how despite all the deceit, falsehoods, injustice and denials, there's still many who still vociferously defend this war to the Nth degree. Makes me wonder if no matter if all the same was channeled toward any other country that some of our greedy politicians may declare war  in the near future, the same support would be made.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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38 posted 08-30-2005 02:46 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Noah- I'm not going to answer to all of your thoughts because this post would take most of the bandwidth this site offers, however I do need to make a few comments, or it just wouldn't be me.  

1) You (as most protesters I have talked to) are trying to make a quiche by using Egg Substitute as not to break any real ones. Yes, there are young men (mostly) dyinig over there... yes, there are Iraqi civilians dying over there...
THEY WERE DYING BEFORE.... And in a combat zone fighting men die. That is the end of the conversation, really.
The one thing you don't take into account is that the Iraqi citizens that are dying are not being killed by the Americans. They are being killed by muslim extremists from other countries. These same extremists are the ones that were being trained by the former regime, and they want the status quo as to coninue their power within the region. They realize that once the Iraqi people have accepted the change, and have adopted a Constitution that works, and the country is able to protect itself, they will more than likely be out of homes, so to speak.
So, let's think of it this way.... With the last regime, they were being tortured, raped and killed, gassed, poisoned, etc by their own people. If they listened to their thoughts and tried to oppose them in even the slightest way, they were subjected to said actions. If they said they didn't like the fact that they were starving and their kids could not get an education, they were subjected to the above actions.
NOW... they are being killed in smaller numbers by terrorists. If they speakl out against the new government... then the speak out against the new government. It's not like the kids are going to hear them, because they are all in school now (funded and staffed by mostly Americans, thank you). And it's not like they are dying in the street because of lack of medical care like before... because ALL of the Hospitals are open... because of the American presence there. The Iraqis can now say, think and feel as they wish... and once we leave, then it goes back to what was because they are not ready to do it alone.

6) OK... so, let's see... we toppled the Saddam regime, and now we go to Uzbekistan to take care of them... but, oh wait... we are still fighting in Afghanistan, and assisting them in rebuilding their government and country... So, now we fight a war on THREE fronts. Two is hard enough... we got severely lucky in WWII that we were able to win on 2 fronts.

7) If we don't build nuclear power plants, then we have to rely on coal and oil... then we have the protesters blaming PRESIDENT Bush (could he have THAT respect, please?) for destroying the ecology... OK... take your choice. One or the other... not both. It is my sincere belief that the people protesting would be protesting about anythinhg they could come up with very simply because this is not their president.
When President Clinton was in office, he sent more troops into harms way, and had more military personnel killed under his watch than both of the previous presidents combined. And he did this while dropping the military personnel and readiness to it's lowest point since WWII. NOT ONE protest march because we were in Bosnia (There were people being killed because of their beliefs). Not one protest rally or song because we were in Somalia (we were assisting people who were starving). We had people left in Kuwait and not one person screaming on the evening news because of it (we were helping them rebuild after a devistating war). UH... wait a minute... That sounds like what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan right this very minute... Oh, wait... This isn't a liberal democrat president who is downsizing the mean old military, and kicking those brutes out in the streets where they belong. And it's not like he ever lied to us about ANYTHING *cough* Monica *cough* Whitewater *cough* Vince Foster *cough* Oh, wait... the president in office now is a Republican Conservative who hates the little people and dispises small business (even though small business opwnership and miority ownership is at its highest levels ever). My apologies if this line of questioning upsets you, however it is very simply a statement of fact.

8) Continuing effort to shove us away from the international community??? Does that include the 32 or so nations that are assisting us with this? So, taking us out of Iraq and Afghanistan and allowinig the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan to fall back into their former suppressive regimes would RAISE our standing???
When we left Somalia because of the Black Hawk Down incident, we took a hit in the international community that lasted several years. When we left Vietnam and let the communists take over, we hit an international slide that lasted into the Reagan administration. On the flip side, when we pulled the majority of our troops out of Bosnia, we had no international challenges because we were there until the job was done and left a few people there to help the UN peacekeepers. We still have Ameicans on the ground there... and NO ONE cares...When the first Gulf campaign was over, we left Americans on the ground in Kuwait... AND NO ONE CARED... because we got the job done. We might hqave some of the world going against us, however by leaving before the job is done, that number drastically increases.

9) Oh, yes... the "Billions to Education" rant. OK... here, very simply are the facts...
a)education news has an article showing the fallacy of throwing more money at the school system.

b)This shows the Department of Education budget for FY 2006. It includes major increases for Title I, ( a 56% increase since FY 2000), doubling assistance to schools needing improvement, 390 million for testing students in elementary schools EVERY year instead of every 3,33% increase for early reading programs, 15% increase for students with disabilities, asnd so on... yet we lag behind the rest of the world in student acheivement. Throwing money at the problem NEVER solved the education inadequacies...

10) More vulnerable against an attack from whom??  The Canadians? We had the majority of our "disposable" forces at home on September 11th... and they stopped what, exactly?

As for the protests not affecting the outcome of the war... that, my dear Noah, falls into the category of those not knowing the past being doomed to repeat it. There was a book I read last year called (I think) The Good War, talking about Vietnam. The research that the author did showed that America was within 6 months of actually defeating the communists at one point... then the protests really began, and the summer of love, and Robert McNamara tried to bring the war in under budget, and the politicians being(as usual) more interested in keeping their jobs than winning the war. The protesters got to be such a pain in the keaster, that the politcians stopped trying to win. Everyone calls the Tet Offensive the turning point in the war... the losing enemy took to terrorizing the citizens, and using sappers and terroristic-styled attacks on civilian Americans and military personnel... one small news flash, my friend... The Tet Offensive was a HUGE military disaster for the North Vietnam military. The only "success" they had was the propaganda that came out about how the NVA was winning, and all of that trash.
I might be too old, too tired, to friggin' set in my ways, however this, noah, my friend, looks to be exactly what is happening all over again. The enemy is LOSING (let me say that again, in case I didn't make myself clear the first time LOSING) and the protesters, in conjunction with the mainstream media, are showing ONLY the dead, and not showing the fact that these attacks are acts of desperation by people who are hanging on by their fingertips...
Perhaps that is the historical lesson these vets you vilified (no, not all... the ones from earlier in this thread) are attempting to get across.

Just my thoughts.


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Mistletoe Angel
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39 posted 08-30-2005 03:02 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Yes, Ringo, thanks for providing your thoughts for I was thinking of as many reasons at the top of my head and you answered some other ones I didn't think up in time before bed!

*****

In Response To #1: I'm not making any pancakes from Malt'O Meal here. You incompleted the thought I was making in my first reason. People are needlessly dying over there. They're needlessly dying in a war without a plan, without an exit strategy, without rational backing and honesty, without morals.

As crazy as Pat Robertson has always been, aside from the inflammatory bloodthirst of his Chavez comment, his most recent comment echoes another point I've been making this whole time. Robertson believes Chavez can be removed without resorting to billions of dollars in widespread war. Why couldn't we take Saddam out of power under the same strategy, to capture him and his faithful, or something along those lines? I certainly believe with our country having the finest troops in the world and the most advanced military technology in the world, there's no excuse to why we couldn't have tried that.

I read in some magazine that approximately 20% of Americans apparently will fully support any war that's American-led. I don't know if you are one of those theorized one in five or not, but from what you were apparently arguing there, war will bring out the best in every struggling culture. War will build schools and stop rape and torture and open hospitals. Sorry, my friend, but I can't ever believe that, that's a most dangerously misguided philosophy to have in all my heart.

I also don't personally buy the opinion that "Yeah, I know this war wasn't really right, but what can we do, we're THERE!". It strikes me as saying, "Oops, I did it again, I just invaded another nation, but what can I do, we're there now!".

The troops are doing a wonderful job trying to make things as best as possible for their people through the absolute mess of this greedy war. It's our senseless leaders that are wrong in continuing to excavate the hatchet and toss it around. I believe it's not until the hatchet gets a proper burial that the world will ever become the safe place for our children we both long for ever so much. I believe if mankind continues to war like this, it will inevitably imperil us all. I believe only non-violent peace strategies will ultimately prevail.

*****

In Response To #6: I'm well aware that our forces are weakened and over-stretched right now, you missed the point.

The point was, directly, that the Bush Administration has adopted a double standard on the war on terror. I mentioned Uzbekistan in that it keeps frequently being referred to as an ally on the war on terror, including in one of Bush's state of the union addresses. There Karimov and his faithful torture innocent civilians in a number of ways, including throwing them in large tubs of hot boiling water. It's also one of the worst police states on the entire planet.

The problem is, understandably, we cannot perform any special mission right now to remove Karimov, but that Bush is failing to condemn Karimov and his corrupt government, failing to say directly that they are NOT an ally on the war on terror, etc.

*****

7) Again, thank you for bringing up Clinton and Bosnia, as I have said before that if I were politically active then I would have vociferously opposed that invasion as I have Iraq. It's not my problem that I never watched news before when I was fifteen and younger and was totally outside the issues surrounding the national and international landscape, but as I continue to grow up, you will certainly see should another Democratic president be elected any time soon and he/she decides to make an invasion, I will be protesting it with the same volume.

Also, in bringing up Clinton and Bosnia, you bring up another crucial point about "flip-flopping" that made banners for the GOP under Kerry's constant use of it. In fact, when Bush was governor of Texas, he said this in response to Clinton announcing the invasion of Bosnia:

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."

Santorum, DeLay and Lott, as well as popular right-wing commentary personalities like Scarborough, who support this war and the fact there is no strategy but criticized Bosnia for having no strategy, also made similar statements.

Who's keeping their story straight here? Many likened to Bush from the beginning because he was often seen as someone who you always knew where he stands. In terms of party lines, it really doesn't seem that way to me, and if anything, I believe I will be more consistent than he has been as I continue to grow, holding one stance on foreign policy that will be tested among the likes of Republicans, Democrats, Independents, Greens, Libertarians and Mickey Mouses.

And before I go on to the next point, I want to talk about the nuclear issue.

Can you imagine the consequences if terrorists were to attack one of our very vulnerable existing nuclear power plants? Millions would certainly perish, with millions more living with life-threatening injuries and conditions, and yet millions more, with total environments damaged with nuclear particles and chemicals, subject to deadly cancers, etc, with the damage done on the environment most likely irreversible.

My point on nuclear proliferation and such is just like what this Physicians For Social Responsibility bumper sticker says, "If we don't stop the arms race, it will stop us!"

Many counter that argument in that no state with nuclear power/weapons has ever been attacked yet. It's foolish to think that means it won't ever happen. There ARE bloodthirsty, hate-filled, troubled spirits in the world who want to harm the innocent, and they won't hesitate to target these most vulnerable targets. And if we are to continue building more and more nuclear power plants, you could only begin to imagine what could happen if just one were attacked. There could be a chain reaction, a domino effect. One plant is attacked, explodes, then others follow and put our entire nation at survival.

In Response To #8: Virtually majorities in every nation worldwide except Poland, the Philippines and Israel oppose this war and have a negative view of Bush. Many countries in this so-called "Coalition of the Willing" have already withdrawed and/or publicly expressed plans for withdrawal, where Italy will be beginning to withdraw forces next month. And let's not forget that just because the leaders of, for instance, Britain like Bush's war, their people think strongly the opposite way.

In Response To #9: The nation's poverty rate has risen again for the fourth straight year to 37 million (up 1.1 million from last year), a third of them children, while number of people without health care has risen up another 800,000 to 45.8 million Americans. All of this while efforts to improve the minimum wage standard in this nation continue to go neglected as they have for decades now. (We're approximately $3.50 below what it was in 1968)

Often I believe this administration seems to forget that making this great nation stronger doesn't rest only with our military, that's just part of it. It's about making the American family strong. The children are always the future and we owe them much more. America will be stronger than ever the day that all our children have health care coverage and their families are making living wages. I believe we're heading in precisely the opposite direction right now, and those billions that are heading to Iraq should be money going to them.

In Response To #10: Say what you will...we're only digging ourselves deeper in this hole...and WE'RE LOSING.

One of the excuses Bush was making in justifying this war mid-way since he took us there in March of 2003 was that Iraq is a central front on the war on terror. It was NOT a central front then. It has BECOME one now BECAUSE of this war. Iraq has now become a magnet for foreign militants, who are rapidly crossing over the borders to aid the insurgency and al-Zarqawi. This month was the single bloodiest in all 29 months of this war for us to date if you may have noticed.

In the three crucial Sunni-governed provinces of Iraq that are crucial in mandating the draft of this Iraq constitution, Sunnis are rejecting it. They're even calling it "illegal".

How could I even begin to believe we're winning if there's dissent within the administration itself? While Cheney says the insurgency is in its "last throes", Rumsfeld says the insurgency can last anywhere from 4 to 12 years. They can't keep their own story straight at all.

We're losing. This administration is dangerously disconnected from reality, virtually being raised on delusions. And you always have every right to argue otherwise and that Vietnam was also a "Good War" like you read of Studs Terkel, but I've been seeing all the signs, I've been hearing all the cries, and I certainly don't believe what you believe, and how you can continue to support an invasion built on an ongoing parade of falsehoods and deceptions is beyond me.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

[This message has been edited by Mistletoe Angel (08-30-2005 06:31 PM).]

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40 posted 08-30-2005 08:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The latest poll this morning stated that 79% state the protest has not affected their views at all. I'm sure, Noah, you would simply say that 79% of the population is wrong. The American legion is Mccarthyistic. Bush is delusional and whoever disagrees with your views simply don't know what they are talking about. Well, at least you are not biased
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41 posted 08-31-2005 01:06 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Does that mean that we have 21 percent who actually listen?

Of course not.

Hmmm, how about 5 %? Is that a possibility?
Mistletoe Angel
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42 posted 08-31-2005 02:02 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Yay, there you are Balladeer!

No, as a protester myself who continues to be enthralled by the building momentum and galvanizing of the anti-war movement here, I myself never expected for everyone to automatically change their perception at the snap of a thumb.

I do believe Sheehan's protest is most significant because finally, while the Democrats are lost in the woods thinking and believing God knows what and a majority of the GOP continue to strongly back the invasion, the movement finally has a face. I believe it already had stellar eyes and ears, it just needed something more, some sort of personality many could relate to. Sheehan didn't sprout out of the elite, she was a single American mother who had questions that desired to be answered, and out of the arrogance of the administration, it has fueled the validity of the movement. What has happened here is that in the success of her protest, she has brought the dialogue of the anti-war/peace movement to the national level, where before it only got blinking pilot lights of recognition on the anniversaries of the war in Iraq protests, parts of the election season, etc.

That 79% figure is no surprise to me whatsoever. It's pretty much just like suggesting that the slew of Bush's speeches linking Iraq to 9/11 and WWII in trying to stall the downward trend of public approval toward him and Iraq hasn't influenced or changed 79% or more of Americans minds. Getting the message truly isn't a spontaneous process a majority of the time, it's an evolutionary process, and as the months continue to tick by, I believe more have found it in their hearts and minds that something is very wrong with the picture here; they are making out the dialogue, the talking points challenging the policy.

You also have to remind yourself that it wasn't a single-party poll. Obviously a vast majority of Democrats polled there aren't going to be further influenced from the protests because they've already made up their mind anyway about Bush and Iraq. Obviously most Republicans wish to remain supportive of the president and back the war effort. If anything, I am encouraged the poll didn't come out 90% or above not being influenced by the events.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I believe deep in everyone's heart there is a place that knows something is wrong, a place stronger than all the cynicism that surrounds it at the core that ever so often can squeeze so tight, and I believe what's happening is just that; more are recognizing how ugly war is, how under a pragmatist's reasoning war should only be used as a last resort, and this certainly wasn't one, and that this war is only bringing out the worst in us all.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

 
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