City of Roses
Yes, Ringo, thanks for providing your thoughts for I was thinking of as many reasons at the top of my head and you answered some other ones I didn't think up in time before bed!
In Response To #1: I'm not making any pancakes from Malt'O Meal here. You incompleted the thought I was making in my first reason. People are needlessly dying over there. They're needlessly dying in a war without a plan, without an exit strategy, without rational backing and honesty, without morals.
As crazy as Pat Robertson has always been, aside from the inflammatory bloodthirst of his Chavez comment, his most recent comment echoes another point I've been making this whole time. Robertson believes Chavez can be removed without resorting to billions of dollars in widespread war. Why couldn't we take Saddam out of power under the same strategy, to capture him and his faithful, or something along those lines? I certainly believe with our country having the finest troops in the world and the most advanced military technology in the world, there's no excuse to why we couldn't have tried that.
I read in some magazine that approximately 20% of Americans apparently will fully support any war that's American-led. I don't know if you are one of those theorized one in five or not, but from what you were apparently arguing there, war will bring out the best in every struggling culture. War will build schools and stop rape and torture and open hospitals. Sorry, my friend, but I can't ever believe that, that's a most dangerously misguided philosophy to have in all my heart.
I also don't personally buy the opinion that "Yeah, I know this war wasn't really right, but what can we do, we're THERE!". It strikes me as saying, "Oops, I did it again, I just invaded another nation, but what can I do, we're there now!".
The troops are doing a wonderful job trying to make things as best as possible for their people through the absolute mess of this greedy war. It's our senseless leaders that are wrong in continuing to excavate the hatchet and toss it around. I believe it's not until the hatchet gets a proper burial that the world will ever become the safe place for our children we both long for ever so much. I believe if mankind continues to war like this, it will inevitably imperil us all. I believe only non-violent peace strategies will ultimately prevail.
In Response To #6: I'm well aware that our forces are weakened and over-stretched right now, you missed the point.
The point was, directly, that the Bush Administration has adopted a double standard on the war on terror. I mentioned Uzbekistan in that it keeps frequently being referred to as an ally on the war on terror, including in one of Bush's state of the union addresses. There Karimov and his faithful torture innocent civilians in a number of ways, including throwing them in large tubs of hot boiling water. It's also one of the worst police states on the entire planet.
The problem is, understandably, we cannot perform any special mission right now to remove Karimov, but that Bush is failing to condemn Karimov and his corrupt government, failing to say directly that they are NOT an ally on the war on terror, etc.
7) Again, thank you for bringing up Clinton and Bosnia, as I have said before that if I were politically active then I would have vociferously opposed that invasion as I have Iraq. It's not my problem that I never watched news before when I was fifteen and younger and was totally outside the issues surrounding the national and international landscape, but as I continue to grow up, you will certainly see should another Democratic president be elected any time soon and he/she decides to make an invasion, I will be protesting it with the same volume.
Also, in bringing up Clinton and Bosnia, you bring up another crucial point about "flip-flopping" that made banners for the GOP under Kerry's constant use of it. In fact, when Bush was governor of Texas, he said this in response to Clinton announcing the invasion of Bosnia:
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
Santorum, DeLay and Lott, as well as popular right-wing commentary personalities like Scarborough, who support this war and the fact there is no strategy but criticized Bosnia for having no strategy, also made similar statements.
Who's keeping their story straight here? Many likened to Bush from the beginning because he was often seen as someone who you always knew where he stands. In terms of party lines, it really doesn't seem that way to me, and if anything, I believe I will be more consistent than he has been as I continue to grow, holding one stance on foreign policy that will be tested among the likes of Republicans, Democrats, Independents, Greens, Libertarians and Mickey Mouses.
And before I go on to the next point, I want to talk about the nuclear issue.
Can you imagine the consequences if terrorists were to attack one of our very vulnerable existing nuclear power plants? Millions would certainly perish, with millions more living with life-threatening injuries and conditions, and yet millions more, with total environments damaged with nuclear particles and chemicals, subject to deadly cancers, etc, with the damage done on the environment most likely irreversible.
My point on nuclear proliferation and such is just like what this Physicians For Social Responsibility bumper sticker says, "If we don't stop the arms race, it will stop us!"
Many counter that argument in that no state with nuclear power/weapons has ever been attacked yet. It's foolish to think that means it won't ever happen. There ARE bloodthirsty, hate-filled, troubled spirits in the world who want to harm the innocent, and they won't hesitate to target these most vulnerable targets. And if we are to continue building more and more nuclear power plants, you could only begin to imagine what could happen if just one were attacked. There could be a chain reaction, a domino effect. One plant is attacked, explodes, then others follow and put our entire nation at survival.
In Response To #8: Virtually majorities in every nation worldwide except Poland, the Philippines and Israel oppose this war and have a negative view of Bush. Many countries in this so-called "Coalition of the Willing" have already withdrawed and/or publicly expressed plans for withdrawal, where Italy will be beginning to withdraw forces next month. And let's not forget that just because the leaders of, for instance, Britain like Bush's war, their people think strongly the opposite way.
In Response To #9: The nation's poverty rate has risen again for the fourth straight year to 37 million (up 1.1 million from last year), a third of them children, while number of people without health care has risen up another 800,000 to 45.8 million Americans. All of this while efforts to improve the minimum wage standard in this nation continue to go neglected as they have for decades now. (We're approximately $3.50 below what it was in 1968)
Often I believe this administration seems to forget that making this great nation stronger doesn't rest only with our military, that's just part of it. It's about making the American family strong. The children are always the future and we owe them much more. America will be stronger than ever the day that all our children have health care coverage and their families are making living wages. I believe we're heading in precisely the opposite direction right now, and those billions that are heading to Iraq should be money going to them.
In Response To #10: Say what you will...we're only digging ourselves deeper in this hole...and WE'RE LOSING.
One of the excuses Bush was making in justifying this war mid-way since he took us there in March of 2003 was that Iraq is a central front on the war on terror. It was NOT a central front then. It has BECOME one now BECAUSE of this war. Iraq has now become a magnet for foreign militants, who are rapidly crossing over the borders to aid the insurgency and al-Zarqawi. This month was the single bloodiest in all 29 months of this war for us to date if you may have noticed.
In the three crucial Sunni-governed provinces of Iraq that are crucial in mandating the draft of this Iraq constitution, Sunnis are rejecting it. They're even calling it "illegal".
How could I even begin to believe we're winning if there's dissent within the administration itself? While Cheney says the insurgency is in its "last throes", Rumsfeld says the insurgency can last anywhere from 4 to 12 years. They can't keep their own story straight at all.
We're losing. This administration is dangerously disconnected from reality, virtually being raised on delusions. And you always have every right to argue otherwise and that Vietnam was also a "Good War" like you read of Studs Terkel, but I've been seeing all the signs, I've been hearing all the cries, and I certainly don't believe what you believe, and how you can continue to support an invasion built on an ongoing parade of falsehoods and deceptions is beyond me.
"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"
[This message has been edited by Mistletoe Angel (08-30-2005 06:31 PM).]