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Passions in Poetry

Chicken Hawks?

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Local Rebel
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0 posted 08-21-2005 12:48 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Republican Service Records:

Spencer Abraham: Did not serve
Eliot Abrams: Did not serve
John Ashcroft: Did not serve
Roy Blunt: Did not serve
Michael Bloomberg: Did not serve
Jeb Bush: Did not serve
Saxby Chambliss: Did not serve. Attacked Max Cleland's patriotism
Dick Cheney: Did not serve
Christopher Cox: Did not serve
Tom DeLay: Did not serve
John Engler: Did not serve
Douglas Feith: Did not serve
Bill Frist: Did not serve
Newt Gingrich: Did not serve
Rudy Giuliani: Did not serve
Phil Gramm: Did not serve
Dennis Hastert: Did not serve
Tim Hutchison: Did not serve
Jack Kemp: Did not serve. "Knee problem,"  but continued in NFL for 8 years
Jon Kyl: Did not serve
Trent Lott: Did not serve
Mitch McConnell: Did not serve
John McHugh: Did not serve
George Pataki: Did not serve
Richard Perle: Did not serve
Dana Rohrabacher: Did not serve
Karl Rove: Did not serve
Rick Santorum: Did not serve
Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base
Richard Shelby: Did not serve
JC Watts: Did not serve
Vin Weber: Did not serve
Paul Wolfowitz: Did not serve


Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor
Tom Ridge: Army in Vietnam, Bronze star
Colin Powell: 35 years in Army, 4-star general
John McCain: POW in Vietnam, Legion of Merit, Silver star, DFC, many more
Richard Lugar: Intelligence officer in Navy 1957-60
Chuck Hagel: Served in Vietnam, two Bronze stars and purple heart
Bob Dornan: Enlisted after fighting was over in Korea
Ronald Reagan: Served in WWII making movies
Gerald Ford: Lt. Commander, Navy in WWII
Richard Armitage: Navy, three tours in Vietnam
George H.W. Bush: Youngest Navy pilot in WW II; awarded DFC
George W. Bush: Texas Air Nat. Guard; didn't take physical; suspended from flying
Bob Dole: Army in WWII, Bronze star, two purple hearts
Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer
Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard

Democrat Service Records:

Bill Clinton: Did not serve
John Edwards: Did not serve
Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII

David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72
Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, etc
Jimmy Carter: Lt. Commander in the Navy 1946-53
Wesley Clark: Army 1966-2000, Vietnam, Silver star, purple heart
Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver/Bronze stars, Vietnam
Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72
Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze star
Michael Dukakis: Army 1955-57
Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71
John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs; Air Medal w/18 Clusters
Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam as journalist
Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74
Howell Heflin: Silver star
Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze star
Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII
Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53
Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam
John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver/Bronze stars, purple hearts
Jim McDermott: Navy 1968-70
George McGovern: Silver star & DFC during WWII
Zell Miller: Marine Corps, 1953-56
Walter Mondale: Army 1951-53
Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver star, etc
Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze star, Korea
Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-79; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91
Chuck Robb: U.S. Marine Corps, 1961-70, Vietnam
Pete stark: Air Force 1955-57
Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart

Pundits and Lobby Leaders
Bill Bennett: Did not serve
Wolf Blitzer: Did not serve
Pat Buchanan: Did not serve
Charlie Daniels: Did not serve
Lou Dobbs: Did not serve
Paul Gigot: Did not serve
Sean Hannity: Did not serve
Bill Kristol: Did not serve
Rush Limbaugh: Did not serve
Chris Matthews: Did not serve
Michael Medved: Did not serve
Ted Nugent: Did not serve
Bill O'Reilly: Did not serve
Ralph Reed: Did not serve
Michael Savage: Did not serve
Kenneth Starr: Did not serve
George Will: Did not serve

Jim Lehrer: U.S. Marine Corps
William Buckley: Army in WWII
Dan Rather: Army Reserve

Mysteria
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1 posted 08-21-2005 12:58 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Wow I am truly shocked! I sent this around to friends in Canada to see, and am going to check into our record up here. I guess it's one thing to talk the talk isn't it? Just Wow!

I wonder if Barack Obama served?  He is about my favorite senator of yours down there. I actually believe this to be a good man in office.  Strange, I was thinking, Canadians actually know more about your politics than our own.  If you know the answer to that question Reb can you let me know?  I can't find the answer on the net yet, thanks.
Local Rebel
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2 posted 08-21-2005 01:14 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

interesting links too:
http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=list&category=%20NE   WS%3B%20Chickenhawks

http://www.snopes.com/military/limbaugh.htm


Google Link

[This message has been edited by Ron (08-21-2005 01:44 PM).]

Local Rebel
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3 posted 08-21-2005 01:23 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I don't know that much about Obama but his bio doesn't mention any military service...
http://obama.senate.gov/about/
Mistletoe Angel
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4 posted 08-21-2005 02:49 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Look, I hope the purpose of this thread is not to start a contest over who's more patriotic than the other. In being fair, I can say I will not serve under the military, with Peace Corps being the only thing I may consider, and my refusal has nothing to do with the troops, who have always done a great honor in serving this country, but the politicians who force them into dangerous wrongful policies.

I hope the point in pointing this out, Local Rebel, is to show the hypocrisy in how time and time and time again, this particular Ann Coulter-Move America Forward-Fox News right (and again not referring to the right in entirety because there are many whose views lean right that don't impugn others honor and dissent) attacks liberals and progressives, calling them traitors and terrorist sympathizers and non-troop supporters, yet many of these personalities who keep smearing the patriotic spirit of the left, including those who have served, never served themselves yet make such audacious accusations.

You don't have to serve in the military to be patriotic. You can serve your country being a teacher, a nurse, a fireman, a great American novelist, etc. Millions of wonderful Americans have been made through many professions here.

Just because I potently disagree with the policies of this administration doesn't make it so I will impugn their patriotism. I believe Bush and his officials love America just as much as the next person on the other side of the spectrum. We just have disagreements in how America must mature.

The bottom line is, I am just saddened in my heart that all this talk of people like myself being a traitor, non-patriotic, unAmerican, sleeping with the enemy is rampant, for it couldn't be further from the truth. I, Noah Eaton, am proud to be an American, and proud to be serving this land of the free as a good son, a friend, a poet, a thinker, a musician, a news teamsman, a neighbor, a happy spirit, and eventually dream to serve America as a father, a grandfather, etc.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Mysteria
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5 posted 08-21-2005 03:05 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Noah, I think your point is well taken.  In stating I was shocked at who served and who didn't I should explain my thoughts.  

Up here in Canada we don't "have to serve" at all, so far it's a choice, but who knows?  In the USA, as I understand it, the draft decides who stays home and who doesn't I believe doesn't it?  I find the statistics amazing that regardless of what party these men/women were in, that they missed that draft   Heck, even Elvis went!

I do agree with you however on the note that you can serve your country in many ways rather than being in the military, and it doesn't make you less patriotic to stay home.  However, I will forever be grateful and thank God for the men that do chose to go fight for their country to save the rest that don't choose to fight.  Freedom of choice, as well as that freedom of speech Noah.  

By the way, what is so incredible about the United States of America to me is the strong sense of "country" that as a Canadian I sometimes feel we truly lack.  It may take a serious war or threat to bring it out of us I suppose, heaven forbid, but I am sure if that time came we would also be faced with a draft.

Now I am no scholar, so don't go dragging me over your coals in here, just my own opinion on this.  

By the way - I happen to think that Senator from Illinois is definitely going to go places in your government, and I hope to live to see it, I really like him and with more experience I hope he does well.

Exiting now from my Sunday ramble.  
Mistletoe Angel
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6 posted 08-21-2005 03:23 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Sharon, I imagine a draft in the immediate future is unlikely and would be a colossal mistake to our democracy if it did happen, but if it did, I would refuse and demand to be sent to jail instead, and the reason is simple; I can rest assured at least I still hold that innocence true in my heart, that though prison is the next ugliest place, at least I won't have to hear the sounds of people crying and screaming in anguish, people dying, simple as that, for a jail is a silent prison, but a war is a loud, kinetic, animated prison.

Yes, I do see a great future in Barack Obama. I am thrilled that he has become a Democratic senator. He is one of my favorite Democrats, and his speeches are just brilliant, they're filled with the old school spirit of the ideals we have stood for for generations.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Local Rebel
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7 posted 08-21-2005 03:54 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well Noah -- the title of this thread isn't Chicken Hawks -- it's Chicken Hawks?

this is what I said in another thread;

quote:

All of this is problematic for YOUR party though Noah.  The leading contender for the Presidential nomination in 08, Hillary -- voted to relinquish her Constitutional authority to declare war and put it in the hands of this President -- as did the vast majority of other Democrats -- it's the whole for it before I was against it problem all over again...

But I think there are some legitimate points that can be made.  And it's really interesting to look at -- I should probably post it -- who all the chicken hawks are and the difference in opinion those who actually served in wars like Chuck Hagel and John McCain have with them.



I agree it's disgraceful, along with John McCain, how the right continues to try to swift-boat people (that's actually become a verb now).

But I'm providing data here.  Lincoln and FDR had no military service records -- the Constitution has designed a civil government... It's intersting how the facts play out though -- those with the most military experience have been ignored by this administration. From Powell to Shinseke on down.

I have a feeling that Cat might have some interesting data to provide also regarding the term 'Chicken Hawk'.
Alicat
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8 posted 08-21-2005 04:11 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_(politics)

Look under Origin.
Mysteria
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9 posted 08-21-2005 04:13 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Looks like we are all researching, I found this link quite interesting!
http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=list&category=%20NEWS%3B%20Chickenhawks
Mistletoe Angel
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10 posted 08-21-2005 04:24 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Yes, and I also eloquently stated in the Sheehan thread that I currently declare myself not a Democrat in consequence of the party failing to recognize the large audience who desire a change of pace in Iraq, which experience on the field indeed also seems to play a great motivational tool in understanding, etc.

Indeed I think I can see the significance behind that question mark in the title, that though many of these personalities may be what are often termed as "chickenhawks", it's actually the Democrats in particular who are failing to find the courage to say that experience, in seeing it all with your own eyes and living and breathing like the soldier him/herself, is crucial in understanding how foreign policy works, and that these "chickenhawks" are actually the ones who are making the ongoing offense maneuver politically and making them look like the cowards, which they've had massive success doing.

That's one huge reason why I refuse to call myself a Democrat right now. They just won't stand up for the wills of many of the 49% who came out to vote for Kerry last November. They may know very well they're right, but they're not proving it, they're not showing it. They're the ones who are chickening out right now, and between voting for who's a chicken and who's reckless, I'd edge for the chicken, but it saddens me deeply that we just can't find the air in our lungs to ask for more choices, a deeper selection.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

littlewing
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11 posted 08-21-2005 04:40 PM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

Colin Powell: 35 years in Army, 4-star general

Would have voted for him in a heartbeat.
too bad, eh?

I exit, before my foot goes in my mouth.
Local Rebel
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12 posted 08-21-2005 08:43 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Certainly too bad that his career ended as it did.  We can merely hope that he'll stay engaged in some fashion.

We need good men and women from whatever stripe.

The problem that I see with Hilary is that she's the same as Bush -- she sees everything in black and white too -- it's dangerous coming from either side of the aisle.
Midnitesun
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13 posted 08-21-2005 09:12 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

an interesting list, Reb
and of course, I'm wondering what a chickenhawks ~ nimby's list might look like?
not in my family (but it's ok if your loved one dies)
not in my yard (but yours looks like a good dumping ground)
anyway, I appreciate the time you took putting this together
now I can repair my dartboard
Mistletoe Angel
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14 posted 08-21-2005 09:53 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

You're exactly right, LR, that's how I perceive Hilary at this time. Of course her husband was also that way, though indeed he was more internationalist than this administration has been.

To me, it seems Chuck Hagel seems to have more of the right idea in where we ought to be going than most Democrats looking to be likelihoods for a 2008 run. Of course he is a minority voice within the GOP, and I don't think the party wants to move in that particular direction. Plus that many can't shake the Diebold thing off.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Local Rebel
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15 posted 08-21-2005 11:00 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I'm interested that you would say Bill saw things in black and white.  His critics, as most critics of liberalism would say, said that his problem was the exact opposite - that he saw infinite shades of gray where things were black and white..

He was a liberal but gave us welfare reform, don't ask don't tell, defense of marriage act, a balanced budget, a unilateral war in the Balkans... and confusion of what 'is' is.
Huan Yi
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16 posted 08-21-2005 11:39 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


What makes anyone think military service
qualifies someone for political office?  Do I really
want to risk a Caesar or General Hotspur
as supreme commander?

Local Rebel
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17 posted 08-21-2005 11:46 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

No, but you might want a Washington, Grant, or Ike..

The point of this exercise is to point out the fallacy of both the constant swift-boating on the right and the chicken hawking on the left.

Hypocracy is not a stranger to ideology.
 
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