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Which Father Knows Best

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Huan Yi
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0 posted 08-10-2005 12:21 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165253,00.html


“schools are usurping the parental role of teaching personal values to children. They are not acting as educators but as guardians, "in loco parentis" (in the place of a parent). Some schools clearly consider this function to be their right, even over parental objections.”

So what is the role of the parent
and should it be superior or subordinate
to that of a government educational system
in the formation of his or her child’s value system?
Midnitesun
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1 posted 08-10-2005 01:22 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Well, for starters, I think its impossible to teach in any school setting without instilling values. I'm not sure I want it left up to parents alone anyway. I learned a great deal about morals and values from my teachers. And while its true the family is generally the first place where we learn about values, its not the only place. Some families are sorely lacking when it comes to passing on values of honesty, diligence, perseverence, fair-play...you name it.
Sorry if this is rambling, but it's late, and I just had to call 911 because of a domestic dispute next door, complete with screaming and yelling, furniture flying...and three little children crying and screaming. And then the mom asked me to NOT call the police. Too bad...I had already called anyway. Things are quiet now, and I think my neighbor is mad at me. Well, that's too damn bad...because there are three little children involved, and this couple has already had more than one violent physical fight that landed them both in court.
My background in working with children in public schools and in a treatment center taught me to NEVER overlook/ignore domestic abuse.
I know this reply has strayed from your original train of thought, but somehow, it's all wrapped up together for me. When I was young, the values my teachers instilled in me helped ground me safely through all kinds of stormy weather.
There is a saying, it takes a village to raise a child, and I believe it is the truth. Parents can't do it alone, neither can teachers. And the government? WEll, let's just say, they can and should be limited in what rights they have.
LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
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2 posted 08-10-2005 06:49 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I'm in total agreement with Midnightsun...who, is in fact correct, something is wrong with our society when behavior, as she described with her neighbors is acceptable to the people involved and it ties in with moral values & parental guidence, which was transfered to her neighbors from their parents, and so forth, which is a very common chain that can be broken and must.  

I certainly did not obtain moral values from my parental guidence, more so, from neighbors who cared, and surrgated me...teachers and Sunday School were also a large contribution.  

I ached to go to Sunday School b/c it was to me, a different culture, not to mention, one that made a lot of sense.  While growing up...I had no structural morals taught to me, except by teachers & role models, who cared and took me under their wings so to speak, they were good role models which led me to believe my mother was wrong, without anyone saying so, quite frankly to this day, those people quite literally saved my life and I owe them an awful lot.  So, I've tried to live my life appropriately, so as, not to cause them any pain and/or embarrasement.  I respected them, it was a place to go, and people to be with, and wanted to do nothing to upset the apple cart so to speak.  

Yes, definately, values should be taught in school, and teachers shouldn't be afraid to say, drugs, violence, sex is wrong, children should also be taught what abuse is...not a spanking, but down right abuse, sexual abuse, should also be taught, and I'm a firm believer, there should be moral educational classes for parents, as well...

we've unfortunately slipped, and become a society that thrives on fear, we lack education, and the ability to think for ourselves...we need approval from society to be accepted, even if their views are wrong. Our children receive their beliefs and values from their environment, and if their environment consists of nothing but TV, Video Games, babysitters (child care) or abusive parents, the moral structure of family, respect, quality of life, the importance of rules, is broken...and children grow up, unfortunately to live their lives by impulse, which means, anything goes and will continue to pass their faults and beliefs down to their children.  

We need to teach our children about being open minded, to evaluate opinion, and not to be follows, we need to teach them confidence and that its ok to think for themselves...we need to teach them, that being rich is not a goal if it means cheating people, which is stealing...we need to teach them, that they don't have to look like a model, or act like Mike Tyson to be accepted, and to be able to stand up against those values and say, THIS IS WRONG and I'll not follow.  We are not here to hurt people, to step on people to get ahead, or compromise our values just to be liked or accepted.
We need to teach them to work together as a team, not to isolate for the sake of job protection...and not to sit in front of the TV set and learn their beliefs from media or motion pictures.  We need to teach them that love is not fantasy, or a way to be taken care of...and they need to be dependent of co-dependancy and society when laws are broken...they need to know, it's unacceptable to touch another person bringing forth any harm...and that gangs of violence has to be broken...b/c if we don't, we've not done our jobs or fulfilled our purpose as human beings...this is not to be ignored....and is of upmost importance to the survival of our race.  The chain of complete right and left must be broken, and they must once again learn to speak up when something or someone does wrong...regardless of that person's stature in society...laws must be obeyed, laws must be changed to once again protect the innocent...it's not ok, to take bribs, it's not ok to accept pay off's and it's not ok, to expect payment for a job that is not done properly.  It's not ok to reward bad behavior...and it's not ok to gossip and point fingers.  Most of all, they must be taught when they do something wrong to not lie, but to admit it which is the first step to correcting the problem.  

Thanks for the opportunity of this thread. I to, apologize for rambling.

Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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3 posted 08-10-2005 10:05 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


So “parents” are, on a personal
level, to serve the State and Its purposes
by providing shelter and logistics
to those who ultimately, after birth, are It’s
young . . .

Alicat
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since 05-23-99
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Coastal Texas


4 posted 08-10-2005 10:40 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

quote:
So what is the role of the parent
and should it be superior or subordinate
to that of a government educational system
in the formation of his or her child’s value system?


In the article cited, the school administration was clearly out of line, renegging on a promise to parents to provide advance notification about sexually themed discussions with children in their schools.  The fact that the child in question was in kindergarden is that much more onorous.

To answer your second question, parental authority should always superceded governmental authority unless such parental authority endangers the health and well-being of minors in their charge.  Midnitesun's domestic dispute anecdote is a prime example of this clause.  Howsoever, education begins at home.  Values begin at home.  Morals being at home.  Judgements begin at home.  See the theme?  That answers the first question.  A parent's role is to ensure the health and viability of their child and to create the building blocks of character.  The schools then build upon those blocks if the parents haven't already done so.

I either got lucky, or others were unlucky.  Either/or.  My dad has a BS in Science with a Minor in Math, with continued education in Accounting.  My mom has a BA in English and was working on her Masters in Library Science when she met Dad.  They weren't perfect by any means but they did their best to instill into their four children their values, morals, ethics and beliefs.  Those stuck until teen years and the inevitable revolts and the reconciliation of those cores during the adult years.  Schools, as far as I was concerned, taught none of those things.  Their duty was to further educate, building upon the foundation laid by the parents.  I know that's why I was bored in school: I wasn't really challenged until 11th grade, having been educated by myself and my parents through use of their large library on a myriad of subjects.

In that, I was fortunate.  I even helped Dad build both libraries.  First was in a trailer, and ran the length of the back hallway to the back door, roughly 15-20 feet x 7 feet, floor to ceiling crammed to overflow.  The second one, at least the primary, was built when we moved from the trailer to a house.  That one is about 25x10 for books, and 5x10 for 33 1/3 records and encylopedias/multi-volume reference.  Then there's the 3 closet libraries and the kitchen library in the old dining room (too small for even informal dining).  They love books.  I love books.  I didn't learn that in school.
LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


5 posted 08-10-2005 10:53 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

no, not rightfully so, but all to oft, the result, as two parents work in today's world...and unfortunately, whatever children learn is from child care and school...I suppose what I'm projecting is the fact that I'm always quit taken back by so so many unlearned dysfunctional families...how else could society break the chain of immoral, disrespectful behavior?  Like I said, if it hadn't been for the family influences I had while growing up, and do consider myself, very lucky, God only knows where I'd be today, both mentally and physically?  Which was to me, a perfect example of people who cared enough to teach me...teachers, neighbors, friends parents...good role models, which is a crucial in a child's life.  Teaching them to not react on impulse alone, but on the basis that what they do, reflects on so many, and bad behavior seeds negative results...it also teaches them to assume responsibility...
I don't believe scholastic ability should be the only teacher, if society looses the ability to teach morals, then society soon declines, becomes corrupt, immoral, and takes no responsibility for the results...
Even if God didn't create the 10 commandments, I won't argue, that they are in fact a good set of rules to live life by...regardless of religion or belief, without rules or the teaching of respect for rules, socity declines and anything goes...
I believe children parrot, as most do, and if they are in the company of good role models, who live they're lives by example, then good things follow.  

We are conditioned from childhood by the people we come in contact with...I've said this over and over again, our society strongly lacks education, and I'm not referring to scholastic education...I'm speaking of morals.

Now you can disect this comment, and develop it into some religious war...but I believe for the most part, many know what I'm speaking of.  Rules may not always seem fair, but they are there for a reason, even if to divert impulsive behavior, into accepting great responsibility for others...instead of just ourselves and our own greed, sexual desires and lusts...emotional behaviors and taking pride in working for something, and teaching you don't have to have the best of material things to fit in or be successful...being successful comes from within, and the successful part is, that you create from your world, a goodness in which from everyone gains...and if that comes from an honest state, honest teachers, who truly care about the future of our society, instead of the paycheck, then so be it.  

Again, I remember many teachers who took me aside and worked with me...why? what was in it for them...frankly nothing, they just cared.  The family that took me in, simply just cared...and that is what society is loosing...respect and care for the future...replacing it with great fears...

Ali, your comment is accurate, and I confess, I didn't read the article before going off on this...perhaps I'm way to much of an idealist, or go way deeper from personal experiences?  


Midnitesun
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6 posted 08-10-2005 01:16 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I don't think the father should have been arrested, and also happen to think the school board blew it in this instance, by not agreeing to notification/parental ok for the literature packet that was distributed to the Kindergarten class. But I find nothing wrong with public schools offering the general populace with information that is already on TV/radio/magazines etc every hour of every day.
More importantly, ignorance is not bliss, and a child who is left ignorant of the facts of life is a child who is left vulnerable.  I allowed my child in PRESCHOOL to participate in a special series of workshops which gave her the strength and tools with which to say NO to intimidation and inappropriate handling by anyone. The preschool was owned and operated by a small community hospital, and the course was taught by a licensed clinical psychologist and a pediatrician. All of the parents were informed in writing as to the way the sessions would be presented, and we were asked to sign a release of liability. My daughter learned some self-protection/self-esteem techniques and values that I wish someone had taught me. Even caring good parents are not always qualified/able to give their child the information they need to survive in this world. Parents have rights, but so do the children, and sometimes...the teachers are their only option. Not everyone has an educated concerned parent, not everyone has a spiritual/religious connection. But as long as there are public schools, there will be SOMEONE out there who can be a lifeline.
To me, that is the crux of the issue as to whether or not schools should go beyond teaching the raw elements of the reading, writing, math, history, art, music, science.
The very nature of the classroom invites everyone to ask questions and search for answers. To impose tight controls on what goes on in the classroom is to invite disaster. MHO
Marilyn
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since 09-26-1999
Posts 2646
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7 posted 08-10-2005 02:12 PM       View Profile for Marilyn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Marilyn

Throw me in Jail!!! Public schools think. they now what is best for my child while I know nothing. They are WRONG! that is why my kids are in private school. For 3 1/2 years my middle child was subjected to the will of a school that wanted to make him into something he is not!! Retarded. That is what they told me in kindergarten. Then they ran us through all kinds of tests and sent me to so many diffent doctors because they knew that there was something wrong with my son'd brain. He could not learn so he was set aside and left to be illiterate.

I had been in an abusive marriage for years and my middle son was the child that he picked on. My oldest was his golden child and could do not wrong and my youngest was just a baby so he ignored her. I left my ex the year before my middle child started school and we made huge progess but he didn't trust grown up's...just his Mom. He screamed and clung to my leg every morning for 3/4 of the school year. He didn't want to stay at school unless I stayed also. The school disregarded anything I had to say about my child and how to deal with him.

Through the years they wrote him off as stupid and it was all my fault (accourding to the principle of the public school). half way through grade 2 I had enough and called the local private school. Had a meeting on the Thursday and my son started school the following monday. the next september my opther 2 started there as well.

All of my children have grow and blossomed in the private school but none so much as my middle child. the private school is a christian school and look at him as God's creation and perfect the way he is. He gets the help he needs with issues he still struggles with but if he was left to the hands of the public education system he would be nothing because that is how they saw him.


*sigh*

I think I have finished ranting now....oh BTW...my middle child scored above the 95 percentile in cognative ablility and is bored with school most of the time.

Marilyn.
Ringo
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8 posted 08-10-2005 05:50 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Plain and simple... "It takes a village."

http://www.mysticwicks.com
  (try the after dark section)

Alicat
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9 posted 08-10-2005 06:18 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

I'd care for that phrase more if Senator Clinton had actually written the book by that name.  But then, Barbara Feinman, the ghostwriter, signed a confidentiality agreement which barred disclosing her role and was never given proper credit for the work.  Nor did she receive any part of the $8 million advance given to Senator Clinton by Simon & Schuster for 'It Takes a Village'.  So I don't care much for that phrase.
Midnitesun
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10 posted 08-10-2005 08:31 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Well, as I know it, that 'village' sentence was around for many many years before it ever became any book title...it's a very old saying, born of wisdom, truth, and experience.
Alicat
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11 posted 08-10-2005 08:38 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Be that as it may, when I hear or read it, I don't automatically think of a century's old tribal African saying.  Instead, Hillary comes to mind.  Prolly just me, with apologies for the thread hijack.
Essorant
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12 posted 08-11-2005 01:59 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

As long as a child is set under teacher's care, his/her education is no more only under his/her parents' direction, nor under the teacher's direction: but it is now put under shared direction by both.  Just like a marriage between two people.  It is now up to the two, parent and teacher, to seek the best manners between themselves, and make the best compromise for the child's education, with fullest attention to each other's side.
To me it has nothing to do about superiority or unsuperiority; but really it is about manners between parents and teachers.  The parent and teacher need to work together from their own sides and if there is a problem make a compromise with special attention to each others cares for the child's learning.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-11-2005 02:48 PM).]

Cloud 9
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13 posted 08-11-2005 03:26 PM       View Profile for Cloud 9   Email Cloud 9   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cloud 9

Ess, I couldn't agree with you more.

Midnitsun- I wish you were my neighbor. Our neighbors would never call.
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