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Passions in Poetry

a moral requirement to go to war

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Juju
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25 posted 06-28-2005 10:42 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I have already answered that question,  There is no need to repeat my self

-Juju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Huan Yi
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26 posted 06-30-2005 03:37 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Was England morally right
in declaring war against Germany
for invading Belgium in 1914,
for invading Poland in 1939?
Local Rebel
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27 posted 06-30-2005 08:25 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Were they doing it to help Poland or because it was to their own advantage?
Huan Yi
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28 posted 06-30-2005 08:38 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

LR,

What advantage?

And what about 1914?
They could have easily sat within
their island empire protected by the greatest navy in the world
while the Germans and French killed each other,
with the Belgians in between,
rather than sacrifice their sons in the trenches.*

*Including John Kipling, son of Rudyard,
just turned 18,
last seen crawling around on his hands and knees, crying,
shot in the mouth at the battle of Loos, (My Boy Jack).
Without his glasses he was as good as blind.
Can you imagine that?

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (06-30-2005 09:14 PM).]

Local Rebel
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29 posted 06-30-2005 10:02 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Add Dr. Karl Haushofer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Haushofer  to your studies and Lebensraum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum  and then tell me why it wasn't to England's (and France's) advantage to maintain it's trading partners on the continent instead of being holed up behind the channel -- where they would have eventually fallen to a regime that controlled not only the entire resources of Europe but Russia and Asia as well...

Then ask this -- why didn't they declare war on Russia when it invaded Poland two weeks after Hitler?
Juju
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30 posted 07-04-2005 02:51 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Now the question has changed from presant to past. I am not sure what to say. A lot of should a could haves.  That's the problem about being a critic to things that have happened 0ver 50 or 60 years ago.  


-Juju    

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Huan Yi
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31 posted 07-04-2005 07:55 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

LR,

I really don't think England went to war
when Hitler invaded Poland to protect it’s economics.
England could have prospered with Hitler as with Wilhelm
who both, (hating the French), considered the English cousins.
As to "living space" that Hitler notion, (and derived from others),
dated back to  Mein Kampf looking East.  I think England did not
declare war on the Soviet Union to help the rift
which the Soviet-German Pact of 39 only served
as poor mask, (everyone knew there would come
a war between the two).      

Juju,

Both England's declarations in 1914 and 1939
can strike one as examples of a moral decision
to go to war and therefore are worth consideration
as such.
  
Local Rebel
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32 posted 07-04-2005 10:46 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Austria-Hungary
Czechloslovokia

no declarations of war either John.

Why did England declare war on Napoleon? -- he was just liberating countries from dictatorships, spreading freedom and democracy...human rights... things turn very quickly though -- as the French idealists discovered.
Local Rebel
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33 posted 07-05-2005 12:49 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

nah,

Don't want to leave it that nebulous or deceptive -- it's a trick question since technically Napoleon declared war on England first -- and that's the point..  the French revolutionaries thought they had the moral high-ground, and, we can say that their ideals weren't all that bad -- but going to war simply to enact them unleashed something far more evil than the ills they aimed to correct -- ergo we view Napoleon today as the megalomaniacal aggressor instead of the liberator he intended himself to be.

It goes back to one of my main themes -- democracy imposed from without is the worst tyranny.

You want to romanticize war by looking for a moral necessity to make war.  While there ARE moral responsibilities if we are to have civilization -- war is the result of not fulfilling them rather than being one of them.  Chamberlain and the League of Nations were remiss in containing the democratically elected Hitler because they were far more interested in pragmatism, appeasing Hitler was a bad idea in retrospect -- but war wasn't necessarily the solution either.

England, America, and France sat back while the Nazis terrorized the Jews within Germany.

While there was a moral component to the war from the Allied perspective -- the issues are far more complex than what you want to make them out to be -- we do the same thing with the Civil war -- sure it was great to end slavery -- and even though Lincoln was an abolitionist -- he didn't end slavery in the USA with the Emancipation Proclamation -- only in the rebelling Confederate States.  It wasn't the underlying cause for the war -- it's just hard to take it that that many people died without having a good cause attached to it.
Juju
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34 posted 07-05-2005 12:51 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Auh...  But can you really judge things we did not touch or expeirience? History books are recorded by men and and there are variables as you go to different locations. I am simply arguing that since so much time has gone by, it is foolish to say moral obligations are what drove countries to war.  Wars are too complicated.  The problem with complicated situations is it is hard to place blame or distasre on the outcomes.  Sometimes if things were done differently... a much worse senerio happens. I suggest you read up on ancient greece.  Many wars,  and they all seem stupid, but the more you read the more you understand decisions.

-Juju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Huan Yi
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35 posted 07-05-2005 08:25 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

"appeasing Hitler was a bad idea in retrospect -- but war wasn't necessarily the solution either."


What might have been instead,
especially after appeasement had failed?
Local Rebel
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36 posted 07-05-2005 08:38 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Policing the perimiters and enforcing the Treaty of Versailles, a military deployment need not go to war to be effective -- crippling Hitler's ability to build an army and an active deterrent would have gone a long way.

Prior to that -- had an effective Marshall-type plan been in place to rebuild Germany after WWI the economic and political climate wouldn't have been as favorable for Hitler to succeed politically.

Anti-Semitism -- I don't know what could have been done about that -- it was rampant in Europe and America -- Hitler got half his material from Henry Ford.
Huan Yi
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37 posted 07-05-2005 09:07 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


LR,


“Policing the perimiters and enforcing the Treaty of Versailles, a military deployment need not go to war to be effective -- crippling Hitler's ability to build an army and an active deterrent would have gone a long way.”

The anti-war sentiment, at least in England and the United States, was too great for that kind of
aggressive policing.

“Prior to that -- had an effective Marshall-type plan been in place to rebuild Germany after WWI the economic and political climate wouldn't have been as favorable for Hitler to succeed politically.’

Unlike World War II, Germany itself was relatively untouched physically by World War I,
The greatest damage was done by a  blockade  that caused significant suffering, even
death, among the civilian population.  That blockade, though not immediately, did disappear
with the end of the war .

Germany as a nation in it’s short history, (beginning circa 1870), extolled the sword as a, if not the, ways and means to achieve it’s national ambitions or to avenge their thwarting.  The “master race” was a belief and their right to rule at any cost to the subjected a given for many in power
as well as those who carried out orders they themselves would have written.

“Anti-Semitism -- I don't know what could have been done about that -- it was rampant in Europe and America -- Hitler got half his material from Henry Ford.”

Hitler didn’t need Henry Ford.  There was plenty of proven in blood Anti-Semitism before
any who could have call himself an “American” was born.


Someone once said that a nation should go to war out of the highest charity
or deepest need.  Neither of us dispute the latter.  It is the idea of war for
others, for risking oneself for others than one’s legal/declared own that is questioned here.
It’s is like seeing a child being attacked on the road outside one’s strong castle;
it’s not my child; why should I care; why should I bother . . .





Juju
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38 posted 07-05-2005 09:25 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

How is placing ones children above other children any different then placing ones self in front of others. Are you argueing for nepitism? This goes back to the point I rebuted earlier. It is wrong to think you or others are better.  I stand by that.

-Juju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Huan Yi
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39 posted 07-05-2005 09:37 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Juju,

“How is placing ones children above other children any different then placing ones self in front of others. Are you argueing for nepitism? This goes back to the point I rebuted earlier. It is wrong to think you or others are better.  I stand by that.”

How is valuing my child, my son’s life, over the lives of other children wrong?
How is my rather choosing to watch countless others die in agony
than my child suffer the discomfort of a paper cut let alone have his life risked
wrong in your world?

John
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40 posted 07-05-2005 09:48 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Unlike World War II, Germany itself was relatively untouched physically by World War I,
The greatest damage was done by a  blockade  that caused significant suffering, even
death, among the civilian population.  That blockade, though not immediately, did disappear
with the end of the war .



I don't think this adequately describes the situation for Germany post WWI.  The nation was devastated economically by world-wide recession (or great depression) that was caused by

A. Soldiers returning home and needing jobs combined with sharp reductions in production of military materiel that was required for the war

B. Heavy government debts incurred during the war.

C. The Bolshevik revolution in Russia removing that country from the world economy

The effect was far greater in the defeated powers that were plagued by hyperinflation.  Germany was additionally forced to pay war reparations and had much of it's production machinery and capital confiscated by the Allied powers.  Many, many, labor revolutions popped up all over Europe including England's first Labour Party rule -- Mussolini's blackshirts in Italy, communists in Germany -- and ultimately  -- the Nazi party.

It was Chamberlain's and England's desire to assist the region in recovery that led them to look the other way.


Huan Yi
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41 posted 07-05-2005 09:58 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


“The nation was devastated economically by world-wide recession (or great depression)”

“world-wide recession “

Which means no one, (including the Americans where unemployment reached as high
as 20%), were in a position to help anyone.  And remember it happened in 1929,
not 1918.

Germany was not some oppressed misunderstood child
who if given a better economic chance would have turned out differently.
It was a nation that honored a sort of Viking ethic, the same way
the Japanese revered Bushido through the centuries.


Local Rebel
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42 posted 07-05-2005 10:07 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_of_World_War_I

The market crash was in 1929.  You could argue that the post WWI recession and the Great Depression were separate entities since there was a brief recovery in 26-27, but it started at the end of the War.

Just because the recession was world-wide doesn't mean that there weren't actions that could have been taken by the League of Nations, the U.S., Britian, or France that could have helped to bring Germany (which had once been the strongest economy) back from the brink... all could have waited for reparations until it was on its feet -- why lop the head off the goose?

But you're right -- America was too isolationist.   Mistakes were made -- it doesn't mean there weren't alternatives.
Huan Yi
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43 posted 07-05-2005 10:13 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


LR,

Viking
Bushido

I inadvertently touched on something here.
How do you deal with an ethic that finds meaning
and glory in war?

Local Rebel
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44 posted 07-05-2005 10:34 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

This question isn't specific enough.  

premise?
inferences?
conclusion?

If whatA then whatB?

If whatB then whatC?

Then whatA = whatC?

Huan Yi
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45 posted 07-05-2005 10:45 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


LR,


You've fallen into a pit my friend.

You’ve seeking a rational sequence, a logical explanation,
for irrational, illogical, behavior.

If we were logical, rational, as Mother Nature,
in times of need, we would readily
eat our own young.

John

P.S.  This is fun, isn’t it?

Local Rebel
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46 posted 07-05-2005 11:03 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

history, anthropology, interesting and essential -- as food is a necessity to life -- that it can be palatable or even appetizing is always a bonus.

what you may think is irrational may not really be at all -- from the man who calls us mother nature's playthings;
http://www.howardbloom.net/chimpanzees_and_romans.htm
Juju
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47 posted 07-06-2005 11:53 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

And Once again who are we to say what is right or wrong.good or bad.  When things are so big we can only follow simple principles.  Only I think it is a dangerous game to compare the war in iraq to ww1 and ww2.  They  are completly different wars.  That is like comparing the American reveloulutionary war to the war of 1812.  Related, but not the same. Remember that freedom and morality are to completly different things.

-JUju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Essorant
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48 posted 07-06-2005 12:38 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"How do you deal with an ethic that finds meaning
and glory in war?"


An ETHIC finds meaning and glory in righteousness and peace, not in violence and slaughter.

How do you deal with the EVIL that finds meaning and glory in violence and slaughter?  

You overcome it with the ETHIC, meaning and glory of PEACE.
Essorant
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49 posted 07-06-2005 12:39 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"They  are completly different wars."


Violence, slaughter, death.

Not really.
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