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Senator Durbin

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Alicat
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0 posted 06-17-2005 07:03 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

http://durbin.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=239099

Placed here due to possibility of heavy discussion.  I just hope he learns his lesson here, not just about using historical instances.  When elected officials speak on the Senate and House floor, they speak with the voice of their constituents.  In this case, his constituents disagreed.
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1 posted 06-17-2005 07:41 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

The only real problem I had with how Durbin expressed himself was his usage of comparisons and connotations to Nazis and Khmer Rouge when he was making his point.

There was nothing wrong in my mind with the point itself, apart from the use of historical comparisons. I just don't like it when politicians let and right just keeping throwing in "Nazis" and "fascists" into their dialogue, because I believe all they
do is just bring back much bad blood and memories, plus you just can't accurately masure one historical event to another. It's inaccurate.

But as far as the context of his message himself, I believe words are being put into his mouth just as they were with John Kerry when testifying at the 1971 Winter Soldier hearings that he's blaming US personnel at large for torturing detainees at Guantanamo Bay, when in fact I believe he's clearly meaning the Bush Administration and their reluctance in condemning the use of torture.

I do believe the Bush Administration, not US troops in general, have violated numerous treaties, have failed to make a direct stand against torture and even have pro-torture members on their staff like Alberto Gonzalez, and we are less safer because of the war in Iraq.

When I noticed an earlier thread yesterday that only lasted for an hour and a half, one where I was at the time unavailable to respond to, I was actually speaking my opinions to some via e-mail, and I was basically begging to differ with their thought that it was because of words like his and Newsweek why tensions have erupted in the Arab world when I believe the fact clearly is it was the invasion itself that brought out the worst throughout the world, like with those huge protests in Iraq before the Newsweek story ever surfaced.

Finally, I want to reiterate an important point here. I am not at all faulting the soldiers here. I believe a vast majority of them are decent, disciplined men who serve with honor, and a very small minority are guilty consciences in those incidents. And I believe Durbin certainly wasn't defaming all our troops in general, he was defaming those who won't go out and condemn torture, period.

Like I said to some by e-mail discussion, if you can provide a quote from him that directly specifies the defamation all of our troops, I will read and respond to it. But I did watch his coverage on C-SPAN and I haven't seen any evidence of where he flat out said, "Our troops are just like Nazis and Stalin devotees, torturing detainees mercilessly." or something along those lines.

I believe his words have been misinterpreted and some artificial "allness" spin has been crafted out of this.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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2 posted 06-17-2005 08:01 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Excerpt from his floor address on Gitmo:

quote:
If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.


This was what got so many riled.  Though he targets the President and his Administration through much of his address, in that paragraph he does not.  Americans had done this.  Which Americans are there?  American soldiers.  In all actuality, those detained terrorists are treated better than Americans in Arab countries have ever been.  They're even treated better than criminals in our own country!  Come to think about it, non-Arab detainees in Arab countries aren't called detainees.  They're called hostages, have never had their religious rights respected, never had their religious traditions respected, and were never served food in keeping with their religious views.  I wouldn't mind having part of their diet...orange glazed chicken sounds mighty fine.
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3 posted 06-17-2005 08:13 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I guess this sort of response proves exactly how careful you've got to be with your choice of words these days, and the necessity of running through your speech numerous times with a fine-tooth comb. One little mis-step could get you into a tub of hot water.

I certainly believe it would be helpful for Durbin to come out and respond to those concerned he may have intentionally taken potshots at American servicemen in general.

If you read the speech up and down in periphery, it is obvious he's targeting Bush Administration officials. Using that sense of analyzing, I certainly think he could have used a better word than "Americans" but I don't believe he was meaning "Americans" as in "troops" but Americans as in "those few who aren't being disciplined by our government officials"

In any case, I agree it would be helpful for Durbin to go out and answer questions and clarify just for the good of it before this controversy goes out of hand. But I think in the meantime we just can't leap to conclusions and twist the language, especially when the bulk of the transcript shows he is obviously aiming at administration officials.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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4 posted 06-17-2005 08:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Noah, you ask for specific words for proof and then, when you get them, you simply say that it shows you have to be careful of your choice of words...that's disappointing.

As far as him "obviously" speaking of the Bush administration and not the soldiers, do you feel the thousands of muslims who read it in Aljazeera were able to come to the same conclusion...or did they read americans as americans?
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5 posted 06-17-2005 08:30 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Well Noah, it's a PC thing.  Now, I'll admit to having a twisted sense of humor.  The Political Correctness Movement of the early 90's was started by liberal democrats.  Funny how it bites one of them on the butt.  Yes, you do have to be careful, thanks to PC.  And thanks to 9/11.  Balladeer has a very valid point.  Where do you think terror leaders get their talking points?  Where does Al-Jazeera get their headlines?  The US media and Congress.  They absolutely love Pelosi et al.  It's good for ratings.

The thing lacking is personal censorship, i.e. discretion.  If anything, comments like those from Kennedy, Kerry, Pelosi, and Durbin kill far more people, American/Afghan/Iraqi, than detention of terrorists ever have.  Keep in mind, my friend, that one of the many reasons why so many are still at Gitmo is due to their home countries not wanting them.  Their own countries don't want them!  If that doesn't tell you something, then I fear nothing will.

By the by, I still remember why we're in that region.  I still remember the immense grief I felt seeing the Towers fall.  It still affects me now.  It makes my myopic vision even blurrier.  Then there's terrorists coming from Syria, though rarely Syrian, who kill Iraqi children.  There is no greater power than righteous anger.  And there is anger below the grief.
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6 posted 06-17-2005 09:48 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

What about Bush's Inaugural Speech? That to heart has got to be the most audacious, militaristic speech in years and I find something like that is what has only rattled terrorists worldwide even further, because indeed his inaugural address was flooding with religious comparisons and insinuated he intends to promote his anti-terror campaign throughout the world in the fashion of Iraq. And that could so easily lead many Arabs to believe that other countries of theirs may be next for attack and that he wants to impose our religion on them.

Yes, there is anger underneath grief. You just need to understand its reciprocal as well. There is also grief underneath anger. Grief was really what overwhelmed me on 9/11 and the weeks afterward. I wasn't so much angry, I was just saddened that indeed there are wronged people in the world with hate in their heart.

What I think others missed out of 9/11 was just that reciprocal. When I learned later on that Bush wanted to invade Iraq, I was saddened just like I was on 9/11, for often I just imagine what it must be like in another's shoes to have to experience all that violence and emotional noise in their own neck of the wood.

And indeed they did very much under Hussein. I just felt, "Why should they have to suffer more hardship and loss through a possible war like this?" Surely I believe there are many Iraqis who now have to live through their own sort of 9/11 many days for twenty-seven months now!

I do remember 9/11, and also don't believe the way I reflect on that day has changed either. I very much am saddened that 9/11 happened, but I'm also saddened that we have to respond to 9/11 by countering our anguish on a culture at large, where a vast majority never had anything to do with it.

That's all I'm saying.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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7 posted 06-17-2005 11:51 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

POliticsssssssssssssssssssssssssss
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
sssssssssssssssss. Sigh. Sometimes I feaL like I hear the same stuff over and over. lol. I now know the truth... if it has any thing to do with politics, it always goes wright back to the same old stuf... I am so confused lol.
  ???
..
-
--()--

-Juju


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The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;
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8 posted 06-18-2005 12:03 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Well, JuJu, this thread references back to this thread, which was closed by originator's request.

See, I don't care which political flavor says such stupid and damaging things.  Speech is an action, actions have consequences, and it's high time those elected officials realize that.  They represent a portion of their state, or their entire state, and saying such things only diminishes their home state.

Maybe it's just my ears, since it seems to me to be the more radical members of Congress, who just by happenstance are Democrats, who say stupid things just to say stupid things and to get some airtime and name recognition.  I know Republicans and Independants say stupid things as well...hell, I'll admit I'm a bit biased...I ain't heard many of those camps say such detestible things in quite some time.  I guess it's a major blessing that Lyndon LaRouche was never elected to any position.  Else, those 'Progressive' Democrats would have a run for their money (or the taxpayers) for the most stupid, incompetent remarks.

Some of those Senators and Representatives remind me of the Isolationists during WWII during the seige of Wake Island, also known as the Alamo of the Pacific.  "Ocean on either side, Canada is friendly, Mexico is inept, so why do we need guns?"
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9 posted 06-18-2005 12:31 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Well, sure, I hear troubling things from both sides of the aisle.

Lindsey Graham, Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels and Jim Gibbons are three on the other side of the aisle who especially often say things that are very startling and don't even get any news coverage, and they were all rather recent too.

It comes to no surprise to me why Congress disapproval ratings are so heavy right now. Congress is being governed by the extremes.

Speaking of which, I've never taken LaRouche seriously. I wouldn't take anyone seriously who writes a book called "Children of Satan". I understand throughout his life he always hops the fence and supports one whole ideology one year then supports the other the next year.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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10 posted 06-18-2005 11:30 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Well Alicat, I supose I understand.  You see once upon a time in a far away land of minnesota where an loud and opiniated govenor. He said many ignorant and offensive comments which where quite embarressing. I liked him at the time, but now I realize, even though it was funny, it was quite damaging. Some of his stuff I will not repeat here, but believe me.... they where quit offensive.

MY comment in the last post was my fealings when ever there is an arguement about politics. every bet of it goes to the same basic point (even if it is a different subject)I feal too often thatoften all these new posts about politics, are only truthfully that same arguements...

Should this guy be impeached? no. IF I where his constituent I would'nt vote for him again.


Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;
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11 posted 06-18-2005 11:32 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I supose too that as a office holder in the federal level, it is a responcibility especially if you are one making laws... to word things corrrectly Noah.

-Juju

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12 posted 06-18-2005 02:07 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Is anyone covering the contents of the memo?  It seems to me that Durbin's rhetoric is either unjustified or justified.  For me, it depends on what we're doing at Gitmo.

In Algeria, the French used "forceful interrogation" to hunt down the FLN militant cells.  It worked ... in the short term, but ultimately caused a backlash resulting in millions of pied noir vacating an independent Algeria.

If the worst of what we're doing is using intimidation and making the detainees listen to Christina Aguilera, then I don't have many problems with it.  On the other hand, if we're beating them, using electric shock, near-drowning techniques, or anything like it, then we may win the battle, but we'll lose the war.  That is, if history is any indicator of how things will turn out.

Jim
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13 posted 06-18-2005 02:26 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Thank you, Jim. I was beginning to wonder if anyone out there was concerned about the veracity of what was being said, rather than the public relations of how it should be said.
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14 posted 06-18-2005 02:44 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

You're right, Juju, and that is particularly why I'm disappointed by Howard Dean right now also. I indeed believe he has the potential to be an excellent DNC chairman, but I also thought he'd discipline his tongue once he stepped in, and instead of balancing opposition attacking with rallying his own base for things most Democrats in the nation want like a partial or full troop withdrawal from Iraq or environmental issues, all he's doing is attacking. With that said, I believe he's failing to be a competent communicator.

I really do understand what Alicat and Balladeer are arguing here. I have learned that language is culturally bound, and societies are bound together by symbol usages and the understanding of them form relationships. And because of that, conflict can occur if language is misunderstood or has different meanings between cultures.

One example is when Chevrolet wanted to market their successful model Chevy Nova to Latin America. There was just one problem; "no va" means "won't go" in Spanish-speaking cultures, so they thought this car was useless. In result, the Chevy flopped there.

I still believe when reading the speech top to bottom Durbin is directing his message at the administration, and while I still agree I would have used a better word, I believe the context of "Americans" was in the same vein as the rest of his message.

And for those who do insist that his words inspire terrorists, you should also consider ones like Bush's last Inaugural Address. I found it to be very scary and intimidating, where he mirrored many Bible allusions like "a day of fire" and "...ideals of justice and conduct that are the same yesterday, today, and forever...", which is incredibly similar to Hebrews 13:8, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." or "This untamed fire will burn those who fight its progress" is strikingly like Jeremiah 17:27, which reads, "I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem".

The language in that speech struck me like he believes he was chosen by God to end all tyranny in the world, and that he believes America has the right to intervene with any nation on Earth and a call for endless war and the right to a worldwide hegemony.

Can't you see how words like that can anger Arabs and others in the world? Can't you see how words like that could have so many fearing for their lives in that they may be next?

I heard no one on the other side of the aisle here crying out about that inaugural address on January 20th, or any day afterward. Where was all the talk of "his words are sending negative messages worldwide" then?

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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15 posted 06-18-2005 06:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Jim and Ron, the contents have certainly been covered and discussed. According to Durbin, an FBI memo dixcussed five instances of prisoner abuse..in one, a prisoner was chained to his bed for over 24 hours (this prisoner, btw, did indeed provide valuable information. In another the air conditioning was set too high, in another the air conditioning was off with the temperatures around 100 degrees ( a normal day here in florida) and in another loud rap music was playing in the other room. I don't think, Jim, these rival beatings, electric shock or near-drowning practices. Do these qualify as torture tactics? Well, you will have to judge for yourself. What have other investigations uncovered? According to the pentagon...

The Pentagon reports that since Sept. 11, 2001, more than 70,000 detainees have been captured in Afghanistan and Iraq. The vast majority have been released but approximately 520 prisoners remain at Gitmo, identified as terrorist trainers, bomb makers, terrorist financiers, Usama bin Laden's body-guards and would-be suicide bombers. Numerous investigations have not identified any significant abuse there.

Naturally, pro-Durbin voices will say what would you expect from the Pentagon.

Ron, you give the impression that the public relations ramifications of it are minor compared to the contents. I would beg to differ that point also. In the first place, I would say that the "torture" definition of the acts is unfounded. Second, to put out a public statement that Americans are torturing prisoners which gets picked up by Aljezeera and broadcast to the Muslim world I consider extremely important. I'm sure I don't need to point out the damage it does, not only to our image in Muslim eyes, but also to the safety of our soldiers and the recruitment pluses it gives to terrorists, using it to brand Americans in the worst possible way. Is it worth it? Obviously it is to Durbin because the opportunity to attack the administration is much more pleasurable to him than the damage his words can cause  the US and our soldiers in the rest of the world. If you say print it and let the chips fall where they may then your chips are not in Tikrit wondering where the next suicide bomber will hit.

"There are lies and there are damn lies," American Legion National Commander Thomas P. Cadmus said. "Senator Durbin knows better and owes every man and woman in the United States Armed Forces an apology for his totally inaccurate remarks comparing our sons and daughters to crimes of Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, and Pol Pot."
"Senator Durbin's remarks could very well make him the 'Hanoi Jane' of this conflict," Cadmus added. "Many veterans believe Jane Fonda's remarks gave aid and comfort to the enemy. It sure provided them with plenty of propaganda fodder. I am totally outraged by his hideous slight of those he should be honoring for their selfless devotion to this nation. Especially egregious is the fact that his remarks not only insulted U.S. servicemembers but all the innocent victims of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot. I take great exception to this irresponsible comparison of my comrades in arms to thugs that killed millions of helpless, noncombatants."


Noah states that it was just a poor choice of words, saying "Americans" instead of the Bush administration, which he really meant. Well, tell that to the Muslims reading his exact words.

Durbin's remarks were overzealous, inaccurate and totally irresponsible, provoked solely by his desire to attack the adminstration and gain political points, regardless of the damage.



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16 posted 06-18-2005 07:51 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Perhaps it's time to consider context.

quote:
When you read some of the graphic descriptions of what has occurred here -- I almost hesitate to put them in the record, and yet they have to be added to this debate. Let me read to you what one FBI agent saw. And I quote from his report:

On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold....On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.

If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.


The entire Floor Statement is available here: http://durbin.senate.gov/gitmo.cfm

If what the memo says is true, it sounds like torture to me.  I've been in 100 degree heat plenty of times, but it never made me tear by own hair out.  Sure.  Torture may help us get the next Al Qaida lieutenant, but it is also going to cause greater popular support for anti-Westernism in Arab lands.

Durbin's statements may have very unfortunate results.  But unless the memo he received was either fraudulent or inaccurate, I'd have to say I agree with the general idea he's trying to convey.

Jim

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17 posted 06-18-2005 07:56 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

P.S. Geeze.  I can't believe I'm defending Durbin.
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18 posted 06-18-2005 08:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

believe me, i can't either..

Torture may help us get the next Al Qaida lieutenant, but it is also going to cause greater popular support for anti-Westernism in Arab lands.

Yes, thanks to public statements like Durbin's...
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19 posted 06-18-2005 08:16 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Well, I did put a link to Durbin's entire floor address earlier in this thread, but it can't hurt at all to have it later in the thread.  Saves time having to scroll up and down and up and down and stuff.
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20 posted 06-18-2005 08:29 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Mike:

So are you saying that it's okay to torture people as long as nobody on "our side" says anything about it?

I'm not making this stuff up.  I recommend that you pick up "Battle of the Casbah" by General Paul Aussareses (a French military officer in charge of the "forceful interrogations" of Algerian natives to root out terrorist cells).  Also, Gillo Pontecorvo's "The Battle of Algiers" was released in DVD recently.  If you want to see how torture contributes to a people's sense of nationalism, just watch the movie.

The severe exposure to elements and deprivation described in the memo are torture to me.  The question is whether or not such acts actually took place.  If they did, they need to stop - not only for humanitarian reasons, but for strategic reasons as well.

Jim
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21 posted 06-18-2005 08:30 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Ali:

Sorry I missed that link earlier.  Would have saved me the 5-minute Google search.

Jim
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22 posted 06-18-2005 08:34 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Let me try to bring my point across another way.

Indeed, words matter, and words cannot be taken back.

But actions are also greater, and have greater consequences.

Don't you think that many of those innocent Iraqis who have to continue to struggle, fearing for their lives each day, with shrapnel and gunfire always sounding off all around their country, without any word of relief on the way, couldn't help but think but somehow, we are not different enough from the terrorists themselves?

The fact is, war is both a mess and it makes quite a mess of things. War's just cannot be measured, thus they're unpredictable and beyond dangerous. I believe in itself, wars are generally a form of terror themselves. What some may see as freedom, others just can't see how it's freedom if innocent people are still being lost and no white flag has been lifted.

If you still insist Durbin's words are going to make terrorists think that Americans in general value torture, I ask what is worse? Expressing it in terms of words, or actually allowing it in terms of action? That's what I'm arguing here just as another point.

The general idea Durbin is making is one I agree with. But even if Durbin's words have become consequential, I believe we ought to also be looking at the even more serious implications and actions that are also happening, the war in terms of action, and Bush's inaugural address in another term of words (Below if you want to read it again)
http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/20/bush.transcript/index.html

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Mistletoe Angel
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23 posted 06-18-2005 08:47 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3230713

Durbin regrets misunderstandings of Gitmo speech:

"My statement in the Senate was critical of the policies of this administration, which add to the risk our soldiers face. I have learned from my statement that historical parallels can be misused and misunderstood. I sincerely regret if what I said caused anyone to misunderstand my true feelings: Our soldiers around the world and their families at home deserve our respect, admiration and total support."

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Alicat
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24 posted 06-18-2005 08:57 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Um....they reference the same thing I linked in the initial post, which is Senator Durbin's taxpayer expense website.  All Senators and Representatives have this...just one of the perks.  But again, saves wear and tear if the same thing is placed in multiple locations.
 
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