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Senator Durbin
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Senator Durbin |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas 
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http://durbin.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=239099 Placed here due to possibility of heavy discussion. I just hope he learns his lesson here, not just about using historical instances. When elected officials speak on the Senate and House floor, they speak with the voice of their constituents. In this case, his constituents disagreed. |
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Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
The only real problem I had with how Durbin expressed himself was his usage of comparisons and connotations to Nazis and Khmer Rouge when he was making his point. There was nothing wrong in my mind with the point itself, apart from the use of historical comparisons. I just don't like it when politicians let and right just keeping throwing in "Nazis" and "fascists" into their dialogue, because I believe all they do is just bring back much bad blood and memories, plus you just can't accurately masure one historical event to another. It's inaccurate. But as far as the context of his message himself, I believe words are being put into his mouth just as they were with John Kerry when testifying at the 1971 Winter Soldier hearings that he's blaming US personnel at large for torturing detainees at Guantanamo Bay, when in fact I believe he's clearly meaning the Bush Administration and their reluctance in condemning the use of torture. I do believe the Bush Administration, not US troops in general, have violated numerous treaties, have failed to make a direct stand against torture and even have pro-torture members on their staff like Alberto Gonzalez, and we are less safer because of the war in Iraq. When I noticed an earlier thread yesterday that only lasted for an hour and a half, one where I was at the time unavailable to respond to, I was actually speaking my opinions to some via e-mail, and I was basically begging to differ with their thought that it was because of words like his and Newsweek why tensions have erupted in the Arab world when I believe the fact clearly is it was the invasion itself that brought out the worst throughout the world, like with those huge protests in Iraq before the Newsweek story ever surfaced. Finally, I want to reiterate an important point here. I am not at all faulting the soldiers here. I believe a vast majority of them are decent, disciplined men who serve with honor, and a very small minority are guilty consciences in those incidents. And I believe Durbin certainly wasn't defaming all our troops in general, he was defaming those who won't go out and condemn torture, period. Like I said to some by e-mail discussion, if you can provide a quote from him that directly specifies the defamation all of our troops, I will read and respond to it. But I did watch his coverage on C-SPAN and I haven't seen any evidence of where he flat out said, "Our troops are just like Nazis and Stalin devotees, torturing detainees mercilessly." or something along those lines. I believe his words have been misinterpreted and some artificial "allness" spin has been crafted out of this. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Excerpt from his floor address on Gitmo: quote: This was what got so many riled. Though he targets the President and his Administration through much of his address, in that paragraph he does not. Americans had done this. Which Americans are there? American soldiers. In all actuality, those detained terrorists are treated better than Americans in Arab countries have ever been. They're even treated better than criminals in our own country! Come to think about it, non-Arab detainees in Arab countries aren't called detainees. They're called hostages, have never had their religious rights respected, never had their religious traditions respected, and were never served food in keeping with their religious views. I wouldn't mind having part of their diet...orange glazed chicken sounds mighty fine. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I guess this sort of response proves exactly how careful you've got to be with your choice of words these days, and the necessity of running through your speech numerous times with a fine-tooth comb. One little mis-step could get you into a tub of hot water. I certainly believe it would be helpful for Durbin to come out and respond to those concerned he may have intentionally taken potshots at American servicemen in general. If you read the speech up and down in periphery, it is obvious he's targeting Bush Administration officials. Using that sense of analyzing, I certainly think he could have used a better word than "Americans" but I don't believe he was meaning "Americans" as in "troops" but Americans as in "those few who aren't being disciplined by our government officials" In any case, I agree it would be helpful for Durbin to go out and answer questions and clarify just for the good of it before this controversy goes out of hand. But I think in the meantime we just can't leap to conclusions and twist the language, especially when the bulk of the transcript shows he is obviously aiming at administration officials. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Noah, you ask for specific words for proof and then, when you get them, you simply say that it shows you have to be careful of your choice of words...that's disappointing. As far as him "obviously" speaking of the Bush administration and not the soldiers, do you feel the thousands of muslims who read it in Aljazeera were able to come to the same conclusion...or did they read americans as americans? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Well Noah, it's a PC thing. Now, I'll admit to having a twisted sense of humor. The Political Correctness Movement of the early 90's was started by liberal democrats. Funny how it bites one of them on the butt. Yes, you do have to be careful, thanks to PC. And thanks to 9/11. Balladeer has a very valid point. Where do you think terror leaders get their talking points? Where does Al-Jazeera get their headlines? The US media and Congress. They absolutely love Pelosi et al. It's good for ratings. The thing lacking is personal censorship, i.e. discretion. If anything, comments like those from Kennedy, Kerry, Pelosi, and Durbin kill far more people, American/Afghan/Iraqi, than detention of terrorists ever have. Keep in mind, my friend, that one of the many reasons why so many are still at Gitmo is due to their home countries not wanting them. Their own countries don't want them! If that doesn't tell you something, then I fear nothing will. By the by, I still remember why we're in that region. I still remember the immense grief I felt seeing the Towers fall. It still affects me now. It makes my myopic vision even blurrier. Then there's terrorists coming from Syria, though rarely Syrian, who kill Iraqi children. There is no greater power than righteous anger. And there is anger below the grief. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
What about Bush's Inaugural Speech? That to heart has got to be the most audacious, militaristic speech in years and I find something like that is what has only rattled terrorists worldwide even further, because indeed his inaugural address was flooding with religious comparisons and insinuated he intends to promote his anti-terror campaign throughout the world in the fashion of Iraq. And that could so easily lead many Arabs to believe that other countries of theirs may be next for attack and that he wants to impose our religion on them. Yes, there is anger underneath grief. You just need to understand its reciprocal as well. There is also grief underneath anger. Grief was really what overwhelmed me on 9/11 and the weeks afterward. I wasn't so much angry, I was just saddened that indeed there are wronged people in the world with hate in their heart. What I think others missed out of 9/11 was just that reciprocal. When I learned later on that Bush wanted to invade Iraq, I was saddened just like I was on 9/11, for often I just imagine what it must be like in another's shoes to have to experience all that violence and emotional noise in their own neck of the wood. And indeed they did very much under Hussein. I just felt, "Why should they have to suffer more hardship and loss through a possible war like this?" Surely I believe there are many Iraqis who now have to live through their own sort of 9/11 many days for twenty-seven months now! I do remember 9/11, and also don't believe the way I reflect on that day has changed either. I very much am saddened that 9/11 happened, but I'm also saddened that we have to respond to 9/11 by countering our anguish on a culture at large, where a vast majority never had anything to do with it. That's all I'm saying. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
POliticsssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss sssssssssssssssss. Sigh. Sometimes I feaL like I hear the same stuff over and over. lol. I now know the truth... if it has any thing to do with politics, it always goes wright back to the same old stuf... I am so confused lol. ??? .. - --()-- -Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (; |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Well, JuJu, this thread references back to this thread, which was closed by originator's request. See, I don't care which political flavor says such stupid and damaging things. Speech is an action, actions have consequences, and it's high time those elected officials realize that. They represent a portion of their state, or their entire state, and saying such things only diminishes their home state. Maybe it's just my ears, since it seems to me to be the more radical members of Congress, who just by happenstance are Democrats, who say stupid things just to say stupid things and to get some airtime and name recognition. I know Republicans and Independants say stupid things as well...hell, I'll admit I'm a bit biased...I ain't heard many of those camps say such detestible things in quite some time. I guess it's a major blessing that Lyndon LaRouche was never elected to any position. Else, those 'Progressive' Democrats would have a run for their money (or the taxpayers) for the most stupid, incompetent remarks. Some of those Senators and Representatives remind me of the Isolationists during WWII during the seige of Wake Island, also known as the Alamo of the Pacific. "Ocean on either side, Canada is friendly, Mexico is inept, so why do we need guns?" |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Well, sure, I hear troubling things from both sides of the aisle. Lindsey Graham, Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels and Jim Gibbons are three on the other side of the aisle who especially often say things that are very startling and don't even get any news coverage, and they were all rather recent too. It comes to no surprise to me why Congress disapproval ratings are so heavy right now. Congress is being governed by the extremes. Speaking of which, I've never taken LaRouche seriously. I wouldn't take anyone seriously who writes a book called "Children of Satan". I understand throughout his life he always hops the fence and supports one whole ideology one year then supports the other the next year. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Well Alicat, I supose I understand. You see once upon a time in a far away land of minnesota where an loud and opiniated govenor. He said many ignorant and offensive comments which where quite embarressing. I liked him at the time, but now I realize, even though it was funny, it was quite damaging. Some of his stuff I will not repeat here, but believe me.... they where quit offensive. MY comment in the last post was my fealings when ever there is an arguement about politics. every bet of it goes to the same basic point (even if it is a different subject)I feal too often thatoften all these new posts about politics, are only truthfully that same arguements... Should this guy be impeached? no. IF I where his constituent I would'nt vote for him again. Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (; |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I supose too that as a office holder in the federal level, it is a responcibility especially if you are one making laws... to word things corrrectly Noah. -Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Is anyone covering the contents of the memo? It seems to me that Durbin's rhetoric is either unjustified or justified. For me, it depends on what we're doing at Gitmo. In Algeria, the French used "forceful interrogation" to hunt down the FLN militant cells. It worked ... in the short term, but ultimately caused a backlash resulting in millions of pied noir vacating an independent Algeria. If the worst of what we're doing is using intimidation and making the detainees listen to Christina Aguilera, then I don't have many problems with it. On the other hand, if we're beating them, using electric shock, near-drowning techniques, or anything like it, then we may win the battle, but we'll lose the war. That is, if history is any indicator of how things will turn out. Jim |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Thank you, Jim. I was beginning to wonder if anyone out there was concerned about the veracity of what was being said, rather than the public relations of how it should be said. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
You're right, Juju, and that is particularly why I'm disappointed by Howard Dean right now also. I indeed believe he has the potential to be an excellent DNC chairman, but I also thought he'd discipline his tongue once he stepped in, and instead of balancing opposition attacking with rallying his own base for things most Democrats in the nation want like a partial or full troop withdrawal from Iraq or environmental issues, all he's doing is attacking. With that said, I believe he's failing to be a competent communicator. I really do understand what Alicat and Balladeer are arguing here. I have learned that language is culturally bound, and societies are bound together by symbol usages and the understanding of them form relationships. And because of that, conflict can occur if language is misunderstood or has different meanings between cultures. One example is when Chevrolet wanted to market their successful model Chevy Nova to Latin America. There was just one problem; "no va" means "won't go" in Spanish-speaking cultures, so they thought this car was useless. In result, the Chevy flopped there. I still believe when reading the speech top to bottom Durbin is directing his message at the administration, and while I still agree I would have used a better word, I believe the context of "Americans" was in the same vein as the rest of his message. And for those who do insist that his words inspire terrorists, you should also consider ones like Bush's last Inaugural Address. I found it to be very scary and intimidating, where he mirrored many Bible allusions like "a day of fire" and "...ideals of justice and conduct that are the same yesterday, today, and forever...", which is incredibly similar to Hebrews 13:8, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." or "This untamed fire will burn those who fight its progress" is strikingly like Jeremiah 17:27, which reads, "I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem". The language in that speech struck me like he believes he was chosen by God to end all tyranny in the world, and that he believes America has the right to intervene with any nation on Earth and a call for endless war and the right to a worldwide hegemony. Can't you see how words like that can anger Arabs and others in the world? Can't you see how words like that could have so many fearing for their lives in that they may be next? I heard no one on the other side of the aisle here crying out about that inaugural address on January 20th, or any day afterward. Where was all the talk of "his words are sending negative messages worldwide" then? Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Jim and Ron, the contents have certainly been covered and discussed. According to Durbin, an FBI memo dixcussed five instances of prisoner abuse..in one, a prisoner was chained to his bed for over 24 hours (this prisoner, btw, did indeed provide valuable information. In another the air conditioning was set too high, in another the air conditioning was off with the temperatures around 100 degrees ( a normal day here in florida) and in another loud rap music was playing in the other room. I don't think, Jim, these rival beatings, electric shock or near-drowning practices. Do these qualify as torture tactics? Well, you will have to judge for yourself. What have other investigations uncovered? According to the pentagon... The Pentagon reports that since Sept. 11, 2001, more than 70,000 detainees have been captured in Afghanistan and Iraq. The vast majority have been released but approximately 520 prisoners remain at Gitmo, identified as terrorist trainers, bomb makers, terrorist financiers, Usama bin Laden's body-guards and would-be suicide bombers. Numerous investigations have not identified any significant abuse there. Naturally, pro-Durbin voices will say what would you expect from the Pentagon. Ron, you give the impression that the public relations ramifications of it are minor compared to the contents. I would beg to differ that point also. In the first place, I would say that the "torture" definition of the acts is unfounded. Second, to put out a public statement that Americans are torturing prisoners which gets picked up by Aljezeera and broadcast to the Muslim world I consider extremely important. I'm sure I don't need to point out the damage it does, not only to our image in Muslim eyes, but also to the safety of our soldiers and the recruitment pluses it gives to terrorists, using it to brand Americans in the worst possible way. Is it worth it? Obviously it is to Durbin because the opportunity to attack the administration is much more pleasurable to him than the damage his words can cause the US and our soldiers in the rest of the world. If you say print it and let the chips fall where they may then your chips are not in Tikrit wondering where the next suicide bomber will hit. "There are lies and there are damn lies," American Legion National Commander Thomas P. Cadmus said. "Senator Durbin knows better and owes every man and woman in the United States Armed Forces an apology for his totally inaccurate remarks comparing our sons and daughters to crimes of Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, and Pol Pot." "Senator Durbin's remarks could very well make him the 'Hanoi Jane' of this conflict," Cadmus added. "Many veterans believe Jane Fonda's remarks gave aid and comfort to the enemy. It sure provided them with plenty of propaganda fodder. I am totally outraged by his hideous slight of those he should be honoring for their selfless devotion to this nation. Especially egregious is the fact that his remarks not only insulted U.S. servicemembers but all the innocent victims of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot. I take great exception to this irresponsible comparison of my comrades in arms to thugs that killed millions of helpless, noncombatants." Noah states that it was just a poor choice of words, saying "Americans" instead of the Bush administration, which he really meant. Well, tell that to the Muslims reading his exact words. Durbin's remarks were overzealous, inaccurate and totally irresponsible, provoked solely by his desire to attack the adminstration and gain political points, regardless of the damage. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Perhaps it's time to consider context. quote: The entire Floor Statement is available here: http://durbin.senate.gov/gitmo.cfm If what the memo says is true, it sounds like torture to me. I've been in 100 degree heat plenty of times, but it never made me tear by own hair out. Sure. Torture may help us get the next Al Qaida lieutenant, but it is also going to cause greater popular support for anti-Westernism in Arab lands. Durbin's statements may have very unfortunate results. But unless the memo he received was either fraudulent or inaccurate, I'd have to say I agree with the general idea he's trying to convey. Jim |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
P.S. Geeze. I can't believe I'm defending Durbin.  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
believe me, i can't either..  Torture may help us get the next Al Qaida lieutenant, but it is also going to cause greater popular support for anti-Westernism in Arab lands. Yes, thanks to public statements like Durbin's... |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Well, I did put a link to Durbin's entire floor address earlier in this thread, but it can't hurt at all to have it later in the thread. Saves time having to scroll up and down and up and down and stuff.  |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Mike: So are you saying that it's okay to torture people as long as nobody on "our side" says anything about it? I'm not making this stuff up. I recommend that you pick up "Battle of the Casbah" by General Paul Aussareses (a French military officer in charge of the "forceful interrogations" of Algerian natives to root out terrorist cells). Also, Gillo Pontecorvo's "The Battle of Algiers" was released in DVD recently. If you want to see how torture contributes to a people's sense of nationalism, just watch the movie. The severe exposure to elements and deprivation described in the memo are torture to me. The question is whether or not such acts actually took place. If they did, they need to stop - not only for humanitarian reasons, but for strategic reasons as well. Jim |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Ali: Sorry I missed that link earlier. Would have saved me the 5-minute Google search. Jim |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Let me try to bring my point across another way. Indeed, words matter, and words cannot be taken back. But actions are also greater, and have greater consequences. Don't you think that many of those innocent Iraqis who have to continue to struggle, fearing for their lives each day, with shrapnel and gunfire always sounding off all around their country, without any word of relief on the way, couldn't help but think but somehow, we are not different enough from the terrorists themselves? The fact is, war is both a mess and it makes quite a mess of things. War's just cannot be measured, thus they're unpredictable and beyond dangerous. I believe in itself, wars are generally a form of terror themselves. What some may see as freedom, others just can't see how it's freedom if innocent people are still being lost and no white flag has been lifted. If you still insist Durbin's words are going to make terrorists think that Americans in general value torture, I ask what is worse? Expressing it in terms of words, or actually allowing it in terms of action? That's what I'm arguing here just as another point. The general idea Durbin is making is one I agree with. But even if Durbin's words have become consequential, I believe we ought to also be looking at the even more serious implications and actions that are also happening, the war in terms of action, and Bush's inaugural address in another term of words (Below if you want to read it again) http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/20/bush.transcript/index.html Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3230713 Durbin regrets misunderstandings of Gitmo speech: "My statement in the Senate was critical of the policies of this administration, which add to the risk our soldiers face. I have learned from my statement that historical parallels can be misused and misunderstood. I sincerely regret if what I said caused anyone to misunderstand my true feelings: Our soldiers around the world and their families at home deserve our respect, admiration and total support." Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Um....they reference the same thing I linked in the initial post, which is Senator Durbin's taxpayer expense website. All Senators and Representatives have this...just one of the perks. But again, saves wear and tear if the same thing is placed in multiple locations. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Jim....no, I am not saying torture is acceptable. Obviously, you and i have different definitions of torture. The only part of what i have read here which I would consider torture would be the rap music!! I am saying, however, that some disgression could be used. There are public and non-public ways to handle things. Durbin could have looked at this and weighed the pros and cons of making it public. Pro would include going after the administration. Con would be the ramifications of such charges being aired to the muslim world, the benefit it would be to the terrorist movement and the harm it would cause our soldiers overseas, not to mention the damaging our image in the Middle East. Obviously he felt the pro outweighed the cons. It could have been handled quietly and avoided the cons but then he would have lost the glory of the pro. One may also say the public has the right to know...the public...and the muslims...and the insurgents...and the terrorists. people who say that are normally sitting in a comfy chair instead of being on a battlefield... |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
There's one other issue I want to bring up right now, and that is about one of the responses to Durbin's response. Bill Frist (who's already lied once earlier this week that he never made a diagnosis of Schiavo) lied again on the Senate floor of what Durbin had said (both parts of speech transcript below) http://talkleft.com/FristGitmo1.pdf * http://talkleft.com/FristGitmo2.pdf * 1) Frist said Durbin called Guantanamo a death camp. That never came out of Durbin's mouth. 2) Frist said Durbin said our troops were "committing genocide and war crimes". That also never came out of Durbin's mouth. 3) Here, Frist didn't lie, but this response was just incredible. Frist said Durbin's words are encouraging suicide bombers: "It is anti-American and only fuels the animus of our enemies who are constantly searching for ways to portray our great country and our people as anti-muslim and anti-Arab. It is this type of language that they use to recruit others to be car bombers; suicide attackers; hostage takers; and full-fledged jihadists." Frist has lied numerous times this week. Somehow I think he ought to apologize to Durbin for intentionally putting words in his mouth in the attempt to make him look worse than he really is and for his own political gain. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Mike, if the public statement is true, the effects you describe -- to our image, to our soldiers, to the recruitment efforts of our enemy -- are certainly very real, but are a direct result of the acts being reported, not the report itself. Shooting the messenger is rarely a good answer to any problem. quote: I fail to see the distinction, nor the need for one. The Bush Administration serves at the pleasure of the people. Bush is ultimately responsible for the interrogators, and WE are ultimately responsible for Bush. Sorry, but I don't think you can elect a man to office and then refuse to shoulder responsibility when he does exactly what he said he would do. Whether Burbin meant one man, one group of men, those in uniform or out, is simply semantic nonsense. He could have said Bush, Bush, Bush and the rest of the world -- including the Muslims, Mike -- would still read it as Americans. As well they should. Unlike Jim, I'm not entirely convinced the acts being reported qualify as torture. Water dripping on your forehead is uncomfortable, but it only becomes torturous when carried to extremes. I honestly don't know what those extremes are, nor do I know if they have been seen in Gitmo. I'd like to find out. And no, as Mike implied, I don't think I'm willing to take the Pentagon's word on this. Any more than I'm willing to take Burbin's. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I wish I could coomunicate better..... but I can't. I think torture is ok to an certain extant. Only if it is absolutly certain they know something, and the procedure does'nt involve multalation or activity that greatly indangers a prisoners life. Also the importance of the information. There are tortures (like no human or out side contact) and many others that are quite useful. -Sigh... if only the government would hire psychics.... you think it would be cheeper. Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
"the acts being reported"...yes, Ron, and Durbin decided to be the man to do it and give it maximum exposure and, certainly, you know why. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Ron: I don't find the reported acts as troubling as the effect those acts (and possibly acts that were not reported) had on the prisoner. Durbin also mentioned that the man pulled out his own hair. It is difficult for me to believe that a prisoner would do such a thing unless (1) the interrogations were cause psychological harm or (2) the prisoner was mentally ill to begin with. Even though I probably disagree with Durbin on most policy issues, I have to respect his willingness to do what he sees as the right thing in spite of the likely, personal consequences of his doing so. Perhaps the detainee mentioned in the anonymous memo is a murderer and a thug - I don't know. I don't think any of us know for sure, and that is the problem. I think we take for granted the due process protections we have, and I also think 9/11 presented the President with some difficult choices. In the book I mentioned by the French soldier, Aussaresses’ guiding principle was that, when information is necessary to save lives, it is justifiable to use torture to extract information from one who shed innocent human blood in the name of an ideal. But what was the result? In a 2004 interview with Yasef Saadi, Colonel in the FLN resistance movement in Algiers, Saadi offered his perspective on the French decision to begin torturing Algerian natives: quote: My fear is that we are repeating the mistakes made by the French fifty years ago. I suppose I'm also afraid that, just as the French didn't seem to have a practicable alternative, neither do we. Jim |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
With their, their torturing and killing of citizens, it was easy for us to gain followers. Exactly, Jim...and that is the situation we are faced with now. Base on reports like Durbin's, the muslims already believe that, whether the reports are true or not. The damage is already done. If investigations prove that no torture is occuring, or that the fbi report was wrong or misinterpreted, do we tell the muslims to disregard those charges? forget it. It's going to be true to them, regardless...that's what this pathetic individual has done. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
And what if the reports are true? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Interesting dynamic in this thread. I've wanted to revisit this topic anyway, I still owe Mike an explanation about why he's right. This thread is really the same cavil anyway as the Newsweek article. The reason that you're right Mike is exactly what Jim has been saying -- we don't need these stories out there because they breed terrorists -- and a specific kind of terrorist -- but the way to not have these stories out there is to not be perpetrating the acts -- Durbin is reading an FBI report -- something an FBI agent has witnessed. Where Jim is not fully right, was in the other thread, ascribing acts of terror specifically to Islam. In fact the most suicide attacks have been carried out by a Marxist group, the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. They are anti-religion... but practice the most deadly religion of all -- Nationalism. This, according to the study of Robert Pape as addressed in Blowing Up an Assumption and his new book Dying to Win, is true of persons whose nation is under occupation by a foreign army. It was even true of the first suicide attacks recorded in history -- the Israelites against the Romans -- even though they didn't have bombs the attacks were suicidal. A rebel would attack a Roman soldier with a knife -- the other soldiers would kill him brutally -- this would foment rage in a community and people would join the resistance. When you stop to consider that most all of the terrorists who attacked us in 9/11 were Saudis (with our troops on their soil) this begins to make sense -- the violence after the Koran story broke in Afghanistan should be understandable considering Koran desecration is a capitol offense there (and in Pakistan). Even though the Pakistani government is helping us right now -- those people HATE us -- and they have two stealth submarines that they are equipping with cruise missiles that can carry nukes (which they have). Even with Musharif in control of the government there -- what's to keep a boatload of Al Quada sympathizers, captain included, from just running off with a sub that has a 12 thousand mile cruising range, makes less noise than a crab fart, and can strike any major city on a coast line with a nuclear weapon? The proper response is not to get upset that someone is reading an FBI report in Congress - - it's to be upset that after nearly five years Bush has still never FIRED anybody -- in fact -- he gave Mr.Bad Intelligence a medal -- and after Rummie took full responsibility for Abu Ghraib -- what happened -- we went all out to nab the people at the bottom of the echelon. The mainstream Muslim community needs to see frank discussion, and then consequences -- that's our alternative Jim. Mistreating people doesn't get good information out of them. It never does. You get good information by gaining someone's trust -- there are easier ways to do that -- torture is a stupid strategy all around. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
This morning I heard Juan Williams, senior correspondent for NPR, characterize Al Qaeda “cutting off heads” as being “out of line”. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Hmmmmmmmmm.... I wish bush would fire a few poeple. But I don't see him doing that. He likes to be loyal. What I don't understand is that why is he still loyal to them, when they have been distroying his image? I have been in collage and I am not as in tuned to what has ben going on, but... What can I say. I meen really. The truth is not simple. It is hard for me to say what I want to say because I am a bit ignorant of this subject. But then again... It is hard not to say something when intelligent man that should know better says "americans and not administration" Like most sen. and Rep., the speech was probably or shoud of been prepared. It almosts makes me wonder... You see As far as I am concernedI don't care how other contries percieve what was said. This is simply, because I know that some contries, just like some poeple, take what they want to hear out of everything. I mean when I went to church I had to listen to this long speech by a deacon who proclaims the fall of Bush, because all contries who had attacked "babylon" have parished. You know I get tired of "america Falling" speeches. So forgive my negative attitude. I get real tired of bad poeple. Arrggggggggggggggggggggggggg... I don't go to church for politics. Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
In seeing how more and more on the other side of the aisle have been twisting his words around and branding a form of McCarthyism upon him for what he's said, I'm personally under the impression that the GOP are working to keep this story on the air as long as possible in the attempt to dodge the reality that some in this administration are defending prisoner abuse, some even embracing it. With Frist lying about what he said, with Gingrich calling him a traitor and demanding his censure  , and various other spins in the media landscape, I find it ridiculous of the direction this has gone in.http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Expulsion_Censure.htm Ill-considered remarks are no ground for censuring whatsoever. Censure has only been used eight times in the history of the Republic and none of them run close to the veins of an ill-conceived comment. Where's all the anger and Gingrich calls for censure when Rick Santorum said this Friday: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5018518,00.html "It's the equivalent of Adolf Hitler in 1942." He said Democratic protests over Republican efforts to ensure confirmation votes would be like the Nazi dictator seizing Paris and then saying, "I'm in Paris. How dare you invade me. How dare you bomb my city. It's mine." The reality here is, torture isn't being outright condemned among the administration. Some are actually defending the use of it, and they're using this story as a means to cover this reality up. Some have even begun their own line of T-shirts with phrases that read "I Heart Gitmo" and "What Happens In Gitmo Stays In Gitmo". The latter happens to be on Limbaugh's on-line store. First-hand accounts by the FBI and the International Red Cross have shown documented cases of torture at Guantanamo as much worse than the particular instances being analyzed in the media. Several FBI messages explicitly detail the accounts: http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.5053.pdf http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.3977.pdf http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI_4622_4624.pdf An investigation is under way and accounts have not been confirmed yet, but half a dozen detainees have come out to express of the serious abuse there and are suing for information. Sorry I had to turn up the volume a notch here, but I had no choice as I find this to be an absurd character assassination or form of McCarthyism in the making. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa [This message has been edited by Ron (06-19-2005 03:57 PM).] |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
..........ok Conspiracy? perhaps......... Have any of you watched the simpsons episode Where homer steals the giant donut. The donute boy awakens all of his advertizement buddies terrorise spring field. In the end the only way to distroy the advertizement was to "just don't look?" Ignore properganda. If everyone would do that, it would make life easier. Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Hawke: Sure, Nationalism is a vehicle for fascism. But are you saying Islam isn't a vehicle for fascism as well? Where I think you're right is that acts of terror probably are not rightly ascribed to Islam. More probably, acts of terror have their roots in Western colonialism. Franz Fanon's "The Wretched of the Earth" began the "dialectic of violence" that resulted in counter-hegemonic nationalist movements. Gotta run to see Madagascar. Jim |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
No. Merely that it isn't uniquely oriented toward terrorism in and of itself. Sure, one can cherry pick the Koran to assemble a theology of aggression and it's been done. But certainly Christian Reconstructionists have demonstrated that the same can be done with the bible. The Tigers are of Hindu heritage -- although they don't profess it. There are underlying issues that are the cause of our current struggle with Al Qaeda here -- and it's good that with occurrence of the Newsweek Koran story and Durbin's comments that the conservatives are finally agreeing that OUR actions cause things to happen in the Middle East -- something in denial for the last 40+ years. Ammonia isn't all that dangerous until you mix it with bleach. That's not to say that there are actions that are going to convince the Islamic world to love us either -- part of the issues have to do with plain old economic and cultural jealousy. The French hate us too -- but when was the last time they bombed one of our embassies? We have over 500 detainees at GITMO, only 14 have been actually found to have had anything to do with terrorism. Almost all of them came into our custody through bounties paid to Afghans who gave us no more evidence than saying -- this is a bad guy. Top that with Koran abuse -- throw in some torture -- and you've got a nice powder keg -- in two countries that are supposed to be on our side right now -- remember -- it was the Pakistani's who pressured Khomeni into putting out the fatwa on Rushdie over the Satanic Verses -- they have a seriously fundamentalist mindset -- and a couple of Agosta 90B submarines and two more under construction. Enjoy the movie -- took mine a couple of weeks ago and they liked it -- but, it's no Lion King. Happy Father's day  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
And what if the reports are true? Wouldn't it be a better idea to find out before releasing it to the world? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LR.. You state the pakistanis HATE us. Certainly the terrorists groups and insurgents hate us. I doubt you would disagree that there are many to want nothing more than our destruction..that has been well-documented - and yet you state the best way to get information from them is to gain their trust. Do you sincerely think we can "gain their trust"? - win them over from a lifetime of indoctrination of hatred toward us? This hatred did not begin with 9/11 nor is it the sole result of Bush's policies. Gain their trust? I would like to think that possible but I find it unlikely. No, torture is not good policy. You didn;t happen to mention if you feel the instances described in the report would constitute torture, in your opinion. I would be interested in hearing your view on that. We have over 500 detainees at GITMO, only 14 have been actually found to have had anything to do with terrorism. Almost all of them came into our custody through bounties paid to Afghans who gave us no more evidence than saying -- this is a bad guy. The Pentagon reports that since Sept. 11, 2001, more than 70,000 detainees have been captured in Afghanistan and Iraq. The vast majority have been released but approximately 520 prisoners remain at Gitmo, identified as terrorist trainers, bomb makers, terrorist financiers, Usama bin Laden's body-guards and would-be suicide bombers. Which version is true - yours or theirs? I'm glad you agree that making the reports public is not good. I also agree that the best case scenario would be not to have such events occuring. I get the impression, however, that you are saying that, if the conditions do exist, then making them public, regardless of the circumstances, is ok. I hope that is not the case. Happy Father's Day  |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
One other thing about the remainders at Gitmo. Their own countries want nothing to do with them, so where would the US send them? Even the countries that slam the US for having them at Gitmo don't want them. And I sure as hell don't want US citizenship given to them. Perhaps Palestine, since that's where all the Arab countries banished people prior to Arafat. If somewhere, sometime down the line someone decides to close Gitmo and move people of that nature to the US, I have the perfect place for them: Alcatraz. It was closed due to the cost of running and supplying it, but it's gotta be cheaper than running and supplying Gitmo. Of course, the ACLU and others would be very quick to holler 'cruel and unusual', but put those types in their own backyards and they'll quickly raise the Jolly Roger. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Can't speak for LR, Mike, but that's exactly what I'm saying. We're not talking about strategic secrets. We're talking about dirty laundry. If there are people breaking the law, and hurting the entire country by doing so, I certainly would like to see it stopped, not hidden. Jim gives some great research on cause and effect, but for me it's a lot simpler than that. This country, and indeed all of civilization, does nothing but get its tail in a crack every time we decide to do what's expedient. Then end justifies the means only in the short term, NEVER in the long term, and it's high time we found leaders with a sense of what's right instead of what's best. Might it hurt? Absolutely. But as Jim established, the alternative to a little pain now for doing what's right is a whole lot of pain down the road for doing what was wrong. Even without the research Jim provided, every right-thinking adult should already know that. It's a Universal Law, I think, right up there with Gravity. If torture saves one American life today, it will cost a thousand lives when the bill eventually comes due. If hiding and protecting those breaking the law makes us look better to the rest of the world today, it will make us look far, far worse when that bill comes due, as come due it must. The easy way, the expedient way, the safest way always, always, always ends up costing the most. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Once again, Ron, I state that those words are easy enough for us to say from the comfort of our respective homes. I don't disagree with your thoughts at all but I do wonder why you apply them to actions that you yourself have stated you don't consider torturous. I have a hard time believing that cold rooms, hot rooms, rap music, and bed-chaining are crimes we will have to answer to in the future to the detriment of the United States. I would further speculate that most of the rest of the world, with the exceptions of the extremist groups who use them for propoganda, would smile at what we have branded as "torture". ...and if it comes out that durbin's report contained inadequacies as a result of his own overzealousness to bash the administration, what then? Do we put the genie back in the bottle? How? Those who say that won't happen obviously cannot spell Dan Rather or the National Guard or Newsweek. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Mike: quote: That depends on how cold or how hot or how loud and/or how long. If you were locked in a 55-degree room in your underwear for 18-24 hours, would you then smile and call it something other than torture? What if you were locked in a 100-degree room with no water for the same period of time? Do you know what the psychological effects of sleep deprivation or prolonged exposure to excessively loud noise are? The question is not whether a cold, hot, or loud room is considered by the average reasonable person to be particularly menacing. The question is whether such environments can be used in an aversive manner to extract information from a person. Granted, behavioral analysis has come a long way since the day of electric shock and blow torches, but what else is torture than the infliction of pain or extreme discomfort on another with the intent to extract intelligence? quote: Yes it would be, but you didn't answer my question. What if the reports are true? Will be back a little later. Jim P.S. Hawke ... "Madagascar" was okay - kids seemed to like it a lot. Now "Spongebob Squarepants: The Movie" ... THAT was torture. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I stated no such thing, Michael. When physical discomfort is prolonged and extreme it can too easily become torture. The Vietnamese used similar tactics in the late Sixties, and anyone who thinks our POWs weren't tortured has probably never listened to one. On the other hand, some of my military instructers used equally uncomfortable measures to perfectly good effect -- though I probably didn't think so at the time. I said I didn't know if the acts described in the FBI report constituted torture, because that is determined as much by duration and intensity as by the act itself. What I said, Mike, was that I'd like to find out the truth. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
That depends on how cold or how hot or how loud and/or how long. If you were locked in a 55-degree room in your underwear for 18-24 hours, would you then smile and call it something other than torture? What if you were locked in a 100-degree room with no water for the same period of time? Do you know what the psychological effects of sleep deprivation or prolonged exposure to excessively loud noise are? My point exactly, jim. All of the "if"'s you used in the above paragraph. Are the if's true? You don't know. Neither do I. Durbin did not specify. He made blanket statements open to speculation. Didn't mean to duck your question. If the reports were true, would I advocate making them public in such a way?....no, I wouldn't. i would not do it while the war in Iraq continues and while our servicemen are there fighting the same groups that will use this report to their benefit. If a soldier, for example, or an officer were to issue torture orders, court-martial them. If it were to be linked back to higher-ups in the administration, go after them in a congressional manner. It does not have to be a world-wide broadcast that Aljezeera picks up and feeds to the muslim world. Look, be honest here. You know as well as I do, his report is completely politically-motivated. He has come out with his report openly, without viable investigation and even against pentagon rebuttal, for the sole purpose of slamming the Bush administration. Did he ask for an investigation behind closed doors or a demand to know if the charges were true before going public with his accusations? I haven't heard he did. He cares nothing for the troops in the field, the reputation of the United States, or even the prisoners at Gitmo, i'm sure. He is one of the hatchetmen for the Democratic Party playing his role. That's the bottom line and you can applaud him as a truth-seeker or defender of justice if you like but, to me and millions of others, his motives are nothing more than political bias. Sell that motivation to the troops. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Ron, I have gone back and read your comment and you did indeed make those thoughts conditional. I apologize for mis-quoting you. When physical discomfort is prolonged and extreme it can too easily become torture. No doubt. You and I can both vouch for that based on our numbers of divorces  The Viernamese used similar tactics? With all due respect, comparing the tactics of the vietnamese with the tactics at Gitmo (even if they kept the temperature in the rooms at 100 degrees for a MONTH) would be like comparing a kiss on the cheek with biting a large chunk of cheek out with your teeth. Comparing those two run parallel with comparing American soldiers with the nazis running the death camps. What I said, Mike, was that I'd like to find out the truth. Me, too. It's a shame that durbin didn't feel the same way before releasing his statements. Maybe if the investigations reveal that the tactics were not really torturous we can get Aljezeera to print a retraction...ya think? |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Lets say (Playing Devil's Advatcate) That the "Bush Administration" Like rumsfeld o gbush him self were giving orders to flush the koran down the toliet, horrid torture(think veitnam terms), and what ever else can be added. My problem isn't merely that I disagree for what ever reason. When HE was adressing whom ever he was adressing, it is his responcibility to clearly state the problem and clearly show the research (summed up) Clearly show the result, and finaly clearly the cause. This is called the scientific methode. From what I saw in this thread, he did not approach this methode and did not organize this like a proffessional. When some one is getting paid a whole lot of money, they should act like an proffessional. This is not political correctiveness, this is giving his constituants a logical explanation to what has happaned. So to intelligant people, when they see this, a big red flag pops up and say's "Something isn't right" Here are some fallacies I have found -broadness -adjetive loading -circling reasoning -Comparing some event to another unrelated avent. My point is just that it worries me when an educated man pulls this... it kinda insults my intelligence. Oh yeah.. When I was saying I was confused earlier, it was because I thought things got off subject to clear things up. I am not always specific to what I mean. Which is why I am not becoming a political analysis and a biomedical engineer.(; -Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Hope you all had a wonderful Fathers Day everyone! For my papa, I made some special smoothies for him and we went on a nice long walk along the riverfront!  Well, of course Durbin's response was political. The intent of his message was NOT to compare those acts of torture our administration officials allow to Pol Pot or Nazis, but rather to make a point, "Are we seeming different enough from them in the eyes of others?" I still believe he could have expressed himself free of the use of historical comparisons just as eloquently, but I believe he makes a good point. Torture is un-American, in my heart, and when other peoples read those FBI and International Red Cross memos, it could easily strike them as though we're allowing these terrible things to happen. http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/index.html The Pentagon has an extensive manual library, in where they also document intelligence interrogation. The Prohibit Against Use of Force portion especially is important to review, where it reads, "The use of force, mental torture, threats, insults, or exposure to unpleasant and inhumane treatment of any kind is prohibited by law and is neither authorized nor condoned by the US Government. Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. However, the use of force is not to be confused with psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and noncoercive ruses used by the interrogator in questioning hesitant or uncooperative sources." I'm not sure if it's really enforced or not, but it certainly oughta be. The CIA also has a detailed definition of "mental torture". If you're solely concerned about Aljezeera spinning Durbin's words as to make it sound to them all Americans are torturers, look at what Rush Limbaugh's popular syndicated program and the popular right-wing blog Powerline are doing meanwhile. They've started their own line of T-shirts with messages that read "I Heart Gitmo" and "What Happens In Gitmo Stays In Gitmo": http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010762.php http://store.rushlimbaugh.com/product.asp?ProductID=433316 According to many's own argument here, this ties in with their own argument of what words and messages like Durbin's may mean ultimately in terms of relationships with Arabs. It's hypocritical in that Limbaugh, someone who has bashed Durbin for what he's said, and also has a nationally syndicated radio program that can be streamed on-line anywhere in the world, argue its encouraging resentment and terror instincts among Arabs, when his own line of T-shirts that are being sold in his on-line store will have Arabs thinking along that same theory that any atrocity that happens to one of them behind those prison walls ain't none of their business, even if that individual isn't a terrorist, or they can do whatever they want to them. You may say, "It's obviously just a joke!". Doesn't mean that's how Arabs are going to receive it. They'll just see Powerline's T-shirt and can come to no conclusion but that they love the abuse at Guantanamo. And, of course, like I mentioned before, there was Bush's 2nd Inaugural address too which I'm sure heavily influenced strong intimidating feelings in many cultures. Finally, there's something new I find most worthy of introducing: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gitmo18jun18,1,1411045.story?ctrack=1&cset=true A U.S MP has said he's suing the Pentagon for $15 million after acknowledging he was mistaken as a prisoner there, and was beaten up by other MPS. The MP, Sean Baker, also describes the incident, where a "five-man MP 'internal reaction force' choked him, slammed his head several times against a concrete floor and sprayed him with pepper gas." This may be big, and if confirmed, this could shed great light on what happens behind the walls of Gitmo. The fact is, I believe Gitmo is only embarrassing our image abroad, aside from what those like Durbin have said about it, and is a main symbol in discrediting our morals we foster here, as well as our own security. Thus, it is in this person's opinion that Gitmo SHOULD be shut down. It also certainly doesn't help that those like Sessions (R-AL) say that some of them there should be executed either, especially when Guantanamo, despite a Supreme Court ruling last year, still doesn't have proper access to federal courts. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Well Juju, it ma not be the direction your heart wants to go in terms of career or field, but I did find that to be an impressive analysis! And, yes, I do agree with you there. I believe the use of historical comparisons and adjectives were the flaws in how he expressed himself. His points were strong, it was just his language that was flawed. Anyway, after Durbin came out Friday to say he regrets the misunderstandings of his floor response, I believe he's acknowledged his mishaps, and I do hope he continues to address his point and just discipline and monitor his use of language more closely, addressing the issue of torture without the use of comparisons or using broad terms like "Americans" which could generate too much curiosity and misinterpretation. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Yeah you ask that, I ask for for the logic. I mean c'mon I hope a lawyer (I think HE is) can give good arguments. You know what scares me more... this guy is writing the laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 You can't pull that off when you write important laws. Besides he is getting payed a wopping 100,000 dollars a year and then when he retires he gets that same amount in pension. This is unexcusable. It is his job to report... its called checks and balance. If he is lying he will get in big trouble, one way or another. But it is also his job to do this in a logical fashion. Personally I think He is exanderating events. Another thing about rules and guidelines Noah is that they were put there to be interpreted. back when they were written they probably meant No cutting off finges limbs and what ever else. Like in Vietnam, if you listen to the kinds of torture that went on to the americans, you will see why there is rules. When they put those rules they probably only meant like very extreems of that torture. Thats the problems with rules. It is hard to say the context. -Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
You're right. He was a lawyer in East St. Louis before he was elected to the House of Representatives about twenty years ago. I agree with the point you're making. I believe he could have been more persuasive and convincing had he just used the information in the three FBI memos or the info from the International Red Cross. I believe his point was strong nevertheless, but he could have made his findings more complete and well-rounded. In any case, the point Durbin was making was not that "Americans" are Nazis or familiar to Pol Pot, it is that if we are advocating torture, do we appear different enough from them in the eyes of others worldwide? And I believe many in the GOP are desiring to give this story longevity in the sole purpose of treating it as a facade and hiding the reality they defend and even endorce torture practices, practices which a majority of Americans outright oppose. On that note, a number of big GOP voices came out condemning torture over the week: Mel Martinez (R-FL) http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aKnKFV0F7uc8&refer=us Chuck Hagel (R-NE) (who also slammed Bush's Iraq policy) http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/06/13/vp_says_no_plan_to_close_cuba_jail/ Lindsey Graham, Arlen Specter and Colin Powell also recently spoke out of the use of torture undermining the U.S image, etc. I'm glad they get the picture. How I wish Bush and Rice and others would get it, who defend those practices. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Here's my argument in point format, as I understand that I write longer responses thus it can take more patience to read my replies and it helps to be direct. * 1) The main problem with how Durbin expressed his point that U.S must end prisoner torture and abuse to secure its good image abroad and our own security is that he wasn't as elegant as he could have been, and he should have been aware how his use of comparisons would be open to too much interpretation. 2) The GOP could have challenged and critiqued Durbin for his lack of nuance to his response, which would have been absolutely appropriate and commendable. 3) Instead, the GOP have chosen to viciously attack Durbin with vitriol; lying about what he said, calling for his censure, and spinning his message. 4) The GOP's goal is to make Durbin the story, rather than the reality of international law violations and Guantanamo human rights violations being allowed by the Bush Administration, and worse yet, all being done in the name of the American people. 5) The GOP are doing just this because they know Durbin was right and they fear the truth in that it can increase public opposition to their policies on Iraq, etc. 6) The bottom line is, Durbin was absolutely right, because his point was that we ARE better than this, and if we allow these sorts of humilating and embarrassing things to happen, in the eyes of others, we won't seem different enough from the terrorists and other infamous regimes. 7) The issue of whether Durbin went too far with what he said is a slap on the wrist compared to an unpopular, senseless war in Iraq and that the treatment of prisoners by our Administration have violated international and moral lines. 8) Several times already, we have seen the Bush Administration, rather than answering criticism, choosing to silence their critics instead, even if it's the truth, and this is their latest effort at that. 9) Durbin must continue to fight back. He should just withdraw his use of historical comparisons and just focus on the point itself, as well as monitor his words closely. 10) America IS better than that in our government allowing the unacceptable treatment of detainees. America ought to be the opposite, and to be the opposite, we must condemn these acts of abuse and respect the law of the world. * Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Noah (and Mike): I think the stand-up thing for Durbin to have done is take a copy of the memo to the Bush Administration and demand appropriate action be taken OR he would go public with the info. At least then, he could have said, "I gave them this info and they did nothing with it." But politicians are all opportunists (left and right alike). Rub elbows with enough of them over time and anyone can see that. What needs to stop is torture, if it is indeed happening. I think we can all agree that comparing Gitmo to Nazi Germany or PolPot is hyberbole. But that doesn't necessarily mean that what is taking place is not torture. I think I can problably agree with Mike that the Senate floor is not the first place the subject of torture should be broached. I think I can agree with Noah that the full context of Durbin's remarks should be given fair treatment. For what it's worth, I think Durbin and the rest of the Senate should demand that the allegations in the memo be investigated thoroughly and, if wrongdoing is found, that those who ordered and carried out the wrongs be punished. Demanding that Durbin retract what he said accomplishes nothing. Criticizing vitriolic Republicans accomplishes nothing. Allowing torture to occur, at best, prolongs the war against terrorists and, at worst, will cause us to lose the war. Jim |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Well said, Jim. And believe me, I never enjoy going on the offensive or on an aggressive defensive, but I'm certain by the intent of his message and when his message is being distorted, I must provide that point of view. For many months now I've believed we're already losing the war badly and this war cannot be won, but beyond that, I believe Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib are representative of exactly what's harming the image of our good nation abroad and sending out the wrong message of what our values and ideals are all about. The bottom line is this: the Senate MUST look into how Guantanamo is being run. We can't just be expected to move on, we must acknowledge these types of things shouldn't be allowed to happen and we must address these issues together as a nation. If anything, we ought to be much more outraged about what the report says than what Durbin or Frist or Gingrich said. We ought to join the worldwide discussion on the issue of torture, as just keeping silent could send an unfortunate message out to other cultures that we just don't care of the issue, and that could strike others as though we're taking one step down the same street those who harm us walk, and that thought only makes us look worse. I hope we can get more out of Durbin's words than just our personal opinion of the man himself. I hope we also get the reminder of how important these issues are and not let them shy off into the sunset. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Yes... I agree with Jim. To a certain agree. I think if he would of done that Things would of came out better. I think it would of been more progressive. I think I agree with your point. What he did wasn't constructive at all really. I take back the checks and balence thing, because your right there were better ways to go about it. -Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
And he finally apologized on the Senate Floor for his remarks which many thought went too far in their comparisons. And that's good enough for me. I respect his Freedom of Speech, but freedoms aren't really free. There's always a price, and Senator Durbin learned that. I'm positive he's known this for most of his life and I know he didn't mean what he said in the way he said it. Howsoever, that's how many took it, on both sides of the aisle and in other countries. Maybe now everyone there can get back to their real jobs: legislating and representing. That's what they're supposed to be paid for, not slinging stuff that floats. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Jim, your comment was very well thought out and said. I doubt, however, that Durbin or even the Democrats who backed his words want an investigation to get to the truth of the matter. They run the risk of having it be untrue and added to the list of the national guard allegations, Dan rather and Newsweek. I don't think they are willing to take that risk. They think they have gotten what they wanted out of this (still oblivious to how the general public regards these tactics) and will quietly hope that it fades away. Time will tell.... |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I am glad Durbin has publicly apologized for the way his message was illustrated. I also hope he doesn't apologize in the context of his point itself and he continues to reinforce and make that point loud and clear on torture from here on out and that he doesn't back off in the struggle for truth. In the lack of nuance and eloquence in speaking, he was at fault and it was right for him to apologize. As far as the point itself, I hope he continues to fight and reinforce the truth on these issues, for any less would just be selling out in my opinion or buying in, and would only hurt nothing less than the American people and the world. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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