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All the News (or not) Unfit to Print...
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All the News (or not) Unfit to Print... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA 
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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Newsweek magazine said on Sunday it erred in a May 9 report that U.S. interrogators desecrated the Koran at Guantanamo Bay, and apologized to the victims of deadly Muslim protests sparked by the article. ADVERTISEMENT Editor Mark Whitaker said the magazine inaccurately reported that U.S. military investigators had confirmed that personnel at the detention facility in Cuba had flushed the Muslim holy book down the toilet. We regret that we got any part of our story wrong, and extend our sympathies to victims of the violence and to the U.S. soldiers caught in its midst," Whitaker wrote in the magazine's latest issue, due to appear on U.S. newsstands on Monday. Whitaker told Reuters that Newsweek did not know if the reported toilet incident involving the Koran ever occurred. "As to whether anything like this happened, we just don't know," he said in an interview. "We're not saying it absolutely happened but we can't say that it absolutely didn't happen either." One of the United State's worst enemies is its own media. In their exuberant desire to grab headlines and sell papers by coming up with the most "shocking" headlines they can discover, or invent, they do an incredible amount of damage to the United States, its military and the country in general and then say "Oops, sorry" when caught. Whatever "journalistic integrity" or "responsible resporting" they used to exhibit, if ever, seems to have taken the last train for the coast... |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Geeze. When I first heard this story, I was shocked. Then when I heard the story came from a single anonymous source, I was flabbergasted, as well as apalled that Newsweek would do such a thing. When the protests started, Newsweek basically said they had no idea the story would provoke such a reaction. Uh-huh. Dozens of people died because of their story, based entirely on one anonymous source. I thought the media had learned its lessons last time, with the Bush National Guard fiasco. Again, single anonymous source. With anonymous sources, the reasoning is fear of retaliation/retribution, or an axe to grind. And a single source? Haven't they learned anything yet? You ALWAYS check your references, ALWAYS check your sources, and ALWAYS have more than one! |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
You'd think they would have Rathered had a bit more sense?  |
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Ringo 
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Watergate started with a single anon. source... HOWEVER there was something called RESEARCH that was done before the story was broken... Now, all anyone is concerned about is doing as much damamge to (insert favorite target) and getting the story out before anyone else has the chance to lie about it. Who would have thought that the National Inquirer would be so influential in the field of journalistic integrity??? I'm drowning, choking |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
"We regret that we got any part of our story wrong, and extend our sympathies to victims of the violence and to the U.S. soldiers caught in its midst," Editor Mark Whitaker wrote in the apology. The White House said Monday that Newsweek's response was insufficient. "It's puzzling. While Newsweek now acknowledges that they got the facts wrong, they refuse to retract the story," said presidential spokesman Scott McClellan. "I think there's a certain journalistic standard that should be met. In this instance it was not. Talk about an understatement...... In Pakistan, an alliance of six conservative Islamic parties has already rejected Newsweek's apology. Alliance leader, Qazi Hussain Ahmed, said it was "a crude attempt, both by the weekly magazine and the American authorities to defuse the anger of the Muslims across the world". You don't get the genie back in the bottle. The Newsweek editor is as guilty of murder as he would be by going to the Middle East and firing bullets into the heads of those who have died as a result of this reporting. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Well, I could be wrong here, but I think that print media is the last holdout for irresponsible liberties. Freedom of Speech: If one was to incite a riot by his/her speech where people were injured or killed by the riot (like Fire! or Bomb! in a crowded theater), that person would be charged for every instance of injury or death. Freedom of Expression: If one was to incite a riot by his/her actions where people were injured or killed by the riot (like sneaking in a gun filled with blanks, then firing at the roof in a crowded building), that person would be charged for every instance of injury or death. Same with Freedom of Religion and Assembly. But with Freedom of Press, there's no consequences for printing something which leads to the death or injury of others, at least barring public outcry, and even then the offending parties are simply fired or have a monetary fine which accountants handle. Whoever wrote that story and the editor who allowed it to be run should be disciplined to the full extent their actions dictate. They should be charged with every instance of death and injury their reporting caused. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Well, I've found it plainly obvious from the beginning that the media is the source of so much misinterpretation and miscommunication in all the world, and this display by Newsweek is just one of many incredible misfortunes our own media inspired. And I do also think those responsible for this story should be put in jail for this. It's a shame that we have these few incidents of journalists without character or dignity overshadowing the headlines and such as well when there are still in fact many great, disciplined journalists in the world. Naomi Klein is probably my favorite. All the same, those Newsweek journalists are unbelievably irresponsible for what they've done here, and it's those like them who are just painting the perception that all journalism is corrupted in the world. I have to add though that to those who are screaming that Newsweek magazine is getting people killed, well, that really isn't accurate, as this war didn't have to happen and such and I believe it's our own government that has incited a lot of the anger and violence down there. And, obviously, a lot of those most outraged about Newsweek were those most adamant about going to war to begin with. Like The Poor Man of Instapundit, who insisted Saddam had something to do with 9/11 on and on, then after the commission made their confirmation, he shouted out they had no credibility. All I'm saying here is, many of these critics are the very ones who got us into Iraq to begin with, and it's our own administration and misintelligence that got us into this quagmire and costed the lives of over 1,600 of our soldiers and over 100,000 others in either a direct or secondary effect in result of this invasion. Newsweek have their own serious problems to deal with, but they're just part of the huge problem too. So I guess I also believe though this Newsweek example is irresponsible in that it just lacked research and substance to me, I do absolutely believe the truth has been stifled in many other instances by other media outlets (wink wink). As it is, I believe our media has a very antagonistic, confrontational, discriminating stance on Arabs and Muslims, with some comparing the Quran to Hitler's Mein Kampf and calling Mohammed a terrorist, etc. I believe there's a dangerous, deadly amount of misinterpretation of Islamic religion in our media, and we're just in a huge mess as it is with that. I've gotta tell you, I can only dream right now of how much we could learn, how significant the effect would be, if the megaphone could be directed away from officialdom and communities with average Joes and Janes everywhere have access to it. Obviously not everyone would be right and we couldn't expect to agree with everyone, but at least we're not all anxious in being dependant on journalists alone and pray something like this doesn't happen. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I have to add though that to those who are screaming that Newsweek magazine is getting people killed, well, that really isn't accurate Sorry, Noah, but it IS accurate and it is well documented. Regardless of what you may believe about whether we should be in Iraq or not, we are there and the Newsweak article has indeed been responsible for the current riots and the deaths and hundreds of injuries. Calling it inaccurate is simply refusing to acknowledge the truth. As it is, I believe our media has a very antagonistic, confrontational, discriminating stance on Arabs and Muslims No, Noah, what our media has is an unquenchable thirst to bash Bush and the administration every chance they get, from erroneus reports about his service record to Dan Rather's rush to condemn to Newsweek. They jump on every opportunity they can and don't mind embellishing when facts are lacking. They could care less about the consequences. They had to know that, by publishing this non-story there would be riots, people would get killed, our servicemen would be in even more danger than they are and that the image of the United States in the eyes of the Muslim world would be further damaged....and, despite of all that, they could not help themselves because it was another chance to take a shot at the administration. They are pathetic.... By the way, Noah, I admire you for responding  |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
What I was saying, Balladeer, is that this particular incident would never have happened had we not gone to Iraq. Newsweek should claim responsibility for these particular tragedies, but at large it's this administration that's responsible for taking us there to begin with and has incited a lot of the ongoing violence and instability there. And I absolutely defend what I said in that our media frequently paints an ongoing negative perception of Arabs and Muslims as terrorists and that their religion promotes hatred and violence. O'Reilly for instance has many times made those sorts of antagonistic statements (and, believe me, I, too, have a strong finger in going back into the archives!) I really don't think our media has that "unquestionable thirst" you speak of in bashing Bush at every opportunity. If that was true, Uzbekistan would be mentioned everywhere in the headlines right now and go on questioning him in the manner I have questioned his position on Uzbekistan in the new thread I started today. Add to that many of the economic moves he's made in the past few months which make it harder for Americans to declare bankruptcy or failing to improve the minimum wage, where I've heard no antagonism or even concern sweeping the media landscape on that. I don't deny there are certain publications that dissent Bush and his policies, like Harper's Magazine, The Nation and The Progressive, but at large, I think we have a mainstream media that is so centralized and officialized and its officialdom often tends to tolerate Bush. If you still insist that there's a liberal media, which I absolutely don't believe there is, we'll see what you say after Bob Scheiffer settles in more at CBS and Ken Ferree and the GOP majority reform Public Broadcasting, because I continue to see no progressive hosts other than David Brancaccio of "NOW!" anywhere on the entire major network and cable news television landscape. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Of course Noah, none of this would have happened if God had not created Adam and Eve. Or can you find some way to blame Pres. Bush for that too? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I knew someone would come up with the "Well, this wouldn't have happened if...." excuse. Sorry it was you, Noah. It did happen. It shouldn't have. Newsweek is responsible for its criminal action. If you can't see that then I suggest your vision is being clouded by your biased political opinions. I certainly have my own personal political opinions also but I can assure you, and you may believe it or not as you wish, thet even if I were a Bush-hater and completely against our actions in Iraq, I would STILL consider Newsweek's actions to be irresponsible and criminal. An excellent point, Pete, that says it all.. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
What I was saying...is that this particular incident would never have happened had we not gone to Iraq... Noah, my dear, sweet ,naive friend... I have read many of your thoughts, and replies on here, and have read a few e-mails that we have passed on various subjects, and- although I don't agree with 98% of it- I have allowed you those thoughts because they are yours ands your are entitled to them. This time, however, I cannot allow this statement to go unchecked. Blaming President Bush for the attacks on Americans (which occured as a result of the Newsweek story) is akin to blaming President Clinton for Air Force Capt. Scott O'Grady being shot down. If we weren't there, it would never have happened, right? A quick modern history lesson for you, my friend... Americans are being killed, NOT by the Iraqis, whose country we "invaded" and continue to "occupy"... rather by muslim extremists between the ages of 18 and 40 (for the most part). This is not the first time it has happened, either, Noah. Let me give you a few examples of American's interaction with muslin extremists in that age group over the last 35 years, and you tell me if you feel that the American President was to blame for the deaths: 1) In 1968, Senator Robert Kenedy was killed by a muslin extremist in that range... and that was on American soil. 2) In 1972, Israeli athletes were killed by muslim extremists between the ages of 18 and 40. Perhaps it was the Prime Minister of Israel's fault for sending Israeli citizens to a foreign country where the citizens of that country were glad they were there? 3)In 1979, the American Embassy in Iran was taken over by muslim extremists between the ages of 18 and 40 (actually, they were mostly college students). 4)During the 1980's numerous Americans in the Middle East (mainly Jordan) were kidnapped by islamic extremists. 5)In 1983, over 260 Brothers (American Marines) were killed by islamic extremists in Beruit while they were sleeping. as the result of a car bomb (historical footnote: shortly afterwards, they extremists blew up another building not too far away) 6) In 1985, a 70 year old American named Leon Klinghoffer was killed and thrown overboard while sitting in his wheelchair by islamic extremists as he vacationed on a cruise ship. 7)In 1988, Pan Am flight 103 was blown out of the sky over Lockerby Scotland by islamic extremists, killing a mes of people, including Americans. 8)In 1998, the American embassies in Tanzenia and Kenya were bombed by islamic extremists. 9) On September 11, 2001 over 3,000 people (Americans and other nationalities) were killed by islamic extremists. 10) The USS Cole, The FIRST Trade Center bombing, reporter Daniel Pearl, CIVILIANS driving water trucks to Iraqi citizens... Noah, have you begun to see the picture? ALL of these (with the exception of Daniel Pearl and the civilians in Iraq) happened before the majority of Americans knew there was an Iraq, and before most who did know could spell it, or point to it on the map. In none of these cases that I have given you, could the American President (or the leader of the country that wasn't American) be blamed for the event happening. Islamic extremists, just as Arian Pride extremists, just as Black Pride (my apologies for the antiquated usage) extremists,just like Irish exteremists, do not care where you are, or that you are in their country... that makes it too personal, and these people couldn't care any less about personal vendettas than they do about Sadie Hawkins Day. For them it is about their view point, and what message they want to get across. If it wasn't the Americans in Iraq, it would be the Americans elsewhere in the world. There are other points that you made that I have contention with, however, to contimue with this response, I would have to charge Ron with royalites for my latest novel. I appreciate that you are able to voice your opinions with grace, and with respect for varying viewpoints, however I would ask that you not allow your personal views to be clouded so much that you ignore the facts. I'm drowning, choking Falling deeper into this Black hole we call living ...Fates Warning |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
There was another World Trade Center attack, in 1994 I believe. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Yes, Ali...that is the one I was allusding to... just over 100 people were killed in that attack, and it happened on American soil. And the leader of whatever country the attackers were from was no more to blame that Preisdent Bush is now. I'm drowning, choking |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Now you're just moving us far beyond the present scope in bringing the Adam and Eve theory into it. Everything now wouldn't have happened under that frame of thinking. I'm not that kind of person that blames my lawnmower not starting or when my sister gets a migraine on Bush or whatever. But no matter what you want to believe, Bush and his administration took us into Iraq, decided to poke around the hornet's nest, and now we've gotten both ourselves and them stung in this predicament. And again, I say what those particular Newsweek journalists involved in this incident did is criminal and should be charged, just as, in the true sense of the word, those who started this war should be charged with war crimes. Ringo, I'm blaming the casualties of this war in Iraq in general on Bush and his administration. And, like I said, in this isolated incident of misintelligence that incited the extremist violence to innocent citizens, I do believe the Newsweek people are the real blame here. What I'm saying is that this invasion is really what shook that hornet's nest, and why violence continues to go on in Iraq, and hadn't we invaded, all thse tragedies wouldn't have happened either, so, frankly, this senseless invasion set the stage for all the instability there. And of course, the fact is, we are there. Of course we're there. But are you just going to use that same attitude everytime you decide to run a huge operation like this and then once you cross the line feel you can get anyway with everything? That's ridiculous thought. In the new Uzbekistan thread I started, I shared what Scott McClellan had to say about the violence in Uzbekistan. He believes they should get a democratic government through peace and not through violence. And if that's really his message, then why didn't they make that their message and attitude towards Iraq? Why? I personally have been lead to believe that's exactly how you should feel. Speechless. At a loss of words. That while many in this administration keep claiming they want to promote peace and democracy in the world now, they consider Uzbekistan a major ally on the war in terror, when their leader's terrorizing all their own people no less brutally than what Saddam did to hundreds of thousands in Iraq. I'll tell you one thing. Scott McClellan was right on today in what he said about the newsweek mishap. He said at one point, "The report has had serious consequences. People have lost their lives. The image of the United States abroad has been damaged." He's totally right about the lives lost and the image being damaged worldwide, he's only naive about what REALLY incited both these things in the first place. For months now virtually every country in the world by a large majority opposes the war and thinks less of the U.S now because of the invasion. Comments like Rumsfeld calling Europe "Old Europe", etc. Those involved covering that Newsweek story deserve to be disciplined. All the same, I find it incredible how there's no outrage equally as loud of this war and toward those who took us there. Over half of the nation now disapproves of this war, and I believe if you're not outraged at what's happening, you're just not paying attention. That's all for today. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, I guess that's it, Noah. You refuse to address the Newsweek issue on its own (lack of) merit without going after the entire administration and the Iraq war. It reminds of the Senator who, when convicted of stealing, said it wasn't his fault because Congress made it so easy to do so. The thread is about Newsweek's action. They stand by themselves. Sorry you couldn't address it but I wish you the best. |
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Michelle_loves_Mike
since 2003-12-20
Posts 1189Pennsylvania |
OK, time for my 2 cents worth, which, always goes unnoticed anyway, lol. The "media" has always taken a single "factoid" and made a, pardon the pun, federal case out of it. That's what the media is all about, hence, terms like, media frenzy(which brings to mind a gang of sharks tearing apart the "food", not caring what species, variety, color, religion, financial standing, fame, or taste....just trying to be the first to get the biggest bite). For every "reporter", be it t.v., cable, newspaper, etc., that does do the homework,,there are plenty that just run with it...it's sorta human nature, like,,,a rumor that runs wild, you dont believe it,,,but,,just mayyyyybe. So,,,I guess thats all, I don't watch the news, sad I know, but, I figure, if it's anything happening of importance, it will end up on PIP in one form or another. Thank you for your patience. If home is where the heart is,,,,,I guess the corner bar is where the mind wanders off to |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
What I'm saying is that this invasion is really what shook that hornet's nest, and why violence continues to go on in Iraq, and hadn't we invaded, all thse tragedies wouldn't have happened either, so, frankly, this senseless invasion set the stage for all the instability there. Noah, once again I find that your vision is clouded by the rosey glasses of the utopian society that is your opinion. The Middle East has been a source of instability and strife for as long as man has been recording history. Most recently (the last 30 years or so) Iraq has been at the forefront of the region's anarchistic ways. And Saddam Hussein, himself, has been at the forefront of that instability within his country since 1958. The Iraqi peple shook off the Monarchy in 1958, and Saddam Hussein began immediately to hatch a plan to assassinate the new Prime Minister. THe plot was discovered, and he fled the country in fear of his own life. In 1963, he returned, and eventually became the head of state in 1979. He then immediately began putting his political rivals to death. He also, in an interview with a reporter, ADMITTED that he tortured and killed his political opponants claiming, asking "What do you expect if they oppose the regime?" Saddam Hussein has also on MORE THAN ONE OCCASION used chemical weapons to put down mass groups of people who did not share his views and who protested his rule. In 1980, he attacked Iran in the attempt to gain control of the Shatt al-Arab waterway, thereby controlling access to the Gulf. In 1990, he invaded neighboring Kuwait to control the oil reserves. Until just recently (oh... the past 2 years or so, since the international force has been in country), Iraq was financially bankrupt. The citizens were literally starving while Saddam grew richer and built more elaborate palaces for himself. The Saddam regime also sponsored terrorist organizations within the region. Terrorists, by there very nature, are designed to cause diessention and to forward their ideals by threatening the security of an area, or a peoples with violence and random destruction. That, my friend, is the reality of the situation. The attacks and instability that you are claiming to be as a result of Americans (forgetting completely the other nations that have troops on the ground) being in the area were happening anyway. You claim that if we were not there, this would not be happening, and there would be no American deaths. Once again, Noah, it is the islamic extremists that were supported by the former regime that are causing all of the challenges we are facing with car bombs and all. It is NOT the Iraqi people who are causing the disruption. It is the people who were causing the disruption all along. I'm drowning, choking Falling deeper into this Black hole we call living ...Fates Warning |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I don't know what to say, Balladeer. You gave me no choice to go back over two years ago and re-hash those facts because I happen to believe you were merely just using this story to further your own "liberal media" myth. I believe you, yourself, really didn't want to talk about this story in its pure context and rather was achieving your own sort of goal with it. And I can understand why, after all, there is a lot of ammunition you can use here. Ringo, you can bully me all you want with my notions and beliefs, but I still believe in all my heart there's nothing more naive and cynical than war. Deep down, you have to ponder that some who have done such atrocious things get held accountable, while others go on without even a warning and just whistle away like nothing is wrong. Iraq has indeed had a harsh history, and I'm glad you brought back some history there. But the fact remains that this war has brought out the worst in us all all throughout the world, no matter what you'd like to believe. Before this story broke out, half of America and virtually all the world by a 2/3 to 3/4 margin in most countries opposed this war and still do. Even before the controversial shooting of an Italian journalist, between 8-9 in 10 Italians opposed the war. Again, Iraq has never been a stranger to tragedy. But we weren't at war in Iraq prior to March 2003 either. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Noah... I have never attempted to bully you, and did not choose this particular moment to begin. You claim that this war has brought out the worst in us all... Once again, I need to turn away from my opinions and bring out a few of the facts in this matter. Before the international coalition got the previous ledership out of power, there were only 35% of the public health facilities were operational. That number is up to near 100% today. Before the world came together and acted as one voice, women were considered as third class citizens, below even male CHILDREN, with female children ranking somewhere slightly below worm castings. Today there are women in positions of political power, and leading the nation. Female children are now going to school. Gary Senise, the actor, has mobilized other actors, as well as private citizens around the country to gather money and school supplies to take to the children of Iraq so they might be better educated. Fighting men and women from around the world have put their arms down temporarily in order to get the nation's infrastructure together so the people of Iraq can have electricity and water for irrigation and personal use. The international Red Cross/Red Crecent has received record numbers of donations given by the American people, as well as the people of the world, to be given to the Iraqi people. Countries around the world have either forgiven or extended loans to the fledgling government. Countries have also extended more loans to Iraq so they might be more able to afford to govern themselves. The sanctions imposed by the UN in 1991 have been lifted so the Iraqi people might more ably take care of themselves. International soldiers have given their lives in defense of Iraqi children who were under attack by the same insurgents that are causing the instability you have spoken of. These same fighting men and women have given their lives to prevent the mistreatment given to iraqi women (and it doesn't take college education to figure that one out) that was done by the insurgents. Noah, I contend that war brings out only the worst in those who are the worst. War only brings out the worst in those people who are intent on bringing out the worst in others. War, as in the case of any personal catastrophe/diswaster/strife, brings out the best in those who are, at their core, basically decent, loving human beings. You can use this forum, or any others to voice your opinions on this matter, and to voicew at the top of your lungs the insanity of my thoughts and viewpoints. I can scream at the top of my lungs the naivete and idiocy of those viewpoints which you are advocating at the top of yours. Just remember, my friend, that every single time you do so, you owe a debt of gratitude to the same man you are vilifying- as well as to the other 42 who took the heat before him because it is through his efforts as the Commander-in-Chief that others the world over are able to begin to live with the same joy of free breath that you are. With that thought, I am going to alter my last post slightly... Yes, it is because of President Bush leading the international forces that the people of Iraq are able to act in a manner of their choosing. Yes, it is because of President Bush leading the international forces that the Iraqi citizens are able to protest freely the failings of their government. It is because of President Bush leading the international forces that women are on the road to true equality in Iraq. It is because of these freedoms that the terrorists around the Middle East are using car bombs to blow up innocent people in the attempt to undo the freedoms that the Iraqi people are enjoying and take them back to the same supressive regime they once were afraid to live in. If you wish to blame President Bush for upsetting the forces of evil, then you know what?? I will agree with you on that. All you need to do in return is to also blame President Bush for expanding and fostering democracy throughout the rest of the world. I'm drowning, choking |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
unfortunately, this kind of news hype has gone on for years and years...isn't that the reason Princess Di was killed? How bout all the movie stars who fear the news media...this wouldn't happen if people wouldn't be so all caught up in gossip, and completely ignore these stories and shows...they sicken my stomach, and to me, shows the intellectual concept of today's society. I don't want to know the dirty words about everyone's lives...who here doesn't have skelatons living in their own closet...yet, we always cast the first stone????? Apparently, what we don't understand here, is that to the people in Pakistan, the Koran is their eternal soul...which they are dedicated to totally...it's all they have. Be them wrong or right, we most certainly stepped on them and literally exposed them naked by stories of us flushing their Bible down the toilet. How unthinking we've become? How disrespectful...and yet, if someone were to do that to us...OMG! Fair is fair, and they have every right to be upset...but in the same, they don't have the right to take lives over it, so who is worse? We're all a community, and we've got to learn to somehow stop retaliating by an even worse measure to get even. Each one of us is wrong here...in my book. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Lee- Small challenge... It never happened. No one is questioning their right to be upset with the Koran being disrespected. No one is faulting anyone with the Koran issue except for the Newsweek reporter who "broke" the story that never happened, and the Newsweek editors who approved a story that never happened, and the Newsweek publishers who published a story that never happened. Yes, if the Bible were to be disrespected, the majority of Americans would be livid. However, if the story broke, and THEN it came to light that the story that got Americans foaming at the mouth was done for sensationalism, and never actually occured... where do you think our ire would be placed then? I'm drowning, choking |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Idiocy, Bradly? THAT'S the bullying I'm talking about here. This has put me under the impression that the only "truth" many who relate more to this administration's agenda is their own agenda's truth. I feel they just can't tolerate any sort of dissent, and in result, every opinion that's not of their caliber is an unpopular opinion in their mind, and every little disagreement is a threat to them. It's all black and white I feel in many minds of this administration, and that's just not how you can expect to make any progress. You say my views are views of idiocy, yet people are dying out there. Hundreds died this past week alone with consecutive days of relentless car bombs. Our own children here at home are bring sacrificed of many basic qualities of life, like health care, college education and decent wages, because so much of our money is going toward corporations like Lockheed Martin who manufacture military junk like C-130J's, a "cargo plane" which can't drop heavy equipment (which is what cargo planes are designed to do), can't operate in cold weaher, lacks the range to travel in immediate circumstances to global hotspots, etc. And already $2.6 billion have gone to make these. Meanwhile, health has declined in Iraq. Malnutrition has doubled since the invasion. Unemployment is staggering. Electricity and water still hasn't been offered to many regions. And beyond all that, no exit strategy in sight, because, after all, there never was one prepared to begin with. And while Bush continues to pay no mind to the atrocities happening in Uzbekistan and Nepal and disregard the fact that in Saudi Arabia women cannot even vote and all, regardless, I am willing to offer you the room to speak without regarding your views as idiocy. All I believe is I don't buy that notion that to achieve peace requires hatred and violence. I can't believe that. * Now, let me try and just add my input to this Newsweek story alone here. I do believe Isikoff and his story associates must be held accountable for the at least 17 deaths under his watch. I personally believe they ought to be jailed. I do believe he should resign, which currently doesn't look to be the case, and should do so without the White House forcing it. I also agree with what Scott McClellan said, in that Newsweek mus set the record straight by "clearly explaining what happened and how they got it wrong, particularly to the Muslim world." Daniel Klaidman and his staff should consider the serious consequences here, and provide the whole truth and nothing but the truth to how the story was pieced together from the beginning, and be warned crucially these mistakes don't repeat themselves. That's basically what should generally happen in my mind. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Ringo, I agree with you, and your right, absolutely, but, like Noah suggests, you can't find peace with violence...and these people have to be held accountable...yes, ohh yes, I have wondered to, about the story that never happened...which was translated into putting the blame on one of the detainees, who supposidly tore up his Koran and stuffed it down the toilet to stop it up in protest...I think Not..to them, doing something like that would be a henous crime to the soul... ya know, this tit for tat, and revenge will be our demise...whose going to be mature enough to stop it, and say, Enough! This is getting us no where? And in the process, now, everyone's going to be crying, when our young men over there are being slane because of idle gossip. A Story A woman, gossiping about a woman who went to her church, that she was running around, while her husband worked nights...pretty soon, the entire congregation was talking, then the entire town, then the children in school were bullying her children, until the woman, who was completely innocent, hung herself out of despiration. An old wives tale....a woman who was gossiping and told a terrible story about another, which wasn't true...was brought before a wise man of the village...he told her, take a feathered pillow, and cut it open, and wave it in the air, during a wind...the feathers traveled to far and wide...when she had completed the task, she returned to the wise man, and he told her, now woman, go collect every single feather...and she yelled, why that's impossible...he said, yes indeed, and so to, is it impossible to take back harsh words to anyone, or of gossip...you can kill a person with words, as if you've taken a gun yourself and held it to their head. Maybe this is out of context? I appologize, if it is, but in the same, when we've become a society that thirsts for gossip, what have we become. Turn off those programs and stop buying those incriminating newspapers....if they weren't making any money off of it or getting ratings, they certainly wouldn't be doing it...simple solution... stop buying gossip at another's expense...it's going way to far...costing lives...and to me, this is making money at all costs...my oh my, really sad stuff going on... |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Oh, Lee, I read the paper less and less now and I rather get my news by working with the KBOO Community Radio newsteam, which is very multicultural and diverse in thought. I never actually liked Newsweek to begin with. They were just too condensed and incomplete. I am now currently assistant producer there most days and I am looking to be the producer there real soon. We spend a lot of time delving into international press there. It's interesting what oasis of information you'll find from other regions of the world, and I find it very helpful to acculturate and to have a snese of relational empathy in what you do, especially when providing communication to a mass audience. KBOO runs under a charter in which we air and provide unpopular stories and commentary that focuses on human rights and international relation themes in particular. So the environment is discussed a lot on the hourly news program, as well as a lot of overlooked international stories. And even if you don't agree with the way the news program operates, the best part is you don't ever have to pay a dime for it if you don't want to. It's non-corporate radio, while you actually have to pay for the newspaper and news magazines. Absolutely agree with you, Lee. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, thank you for your thoughts on the actual object of the thread, Noah. I appreciate it...and, yes, you were wrong about my motivation behind the posting of this thread. There is, of course, little doubt that I consider the press liberal but, in this case, I was outraged at the particular action which cost lives and I would have felt the same if I considered the press conservative. My rant was was concerned with this event only... |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Don't you think you're forgetting about someone here Ringo? Newsweek is certainly culpible for its' own actions and I have no doubt that if there were people rioting in the streets of New York and there were resultant injuries and deaths there would be a class action lawsuit (justifiably) filed with all due haste. But isn't there someone else that is equally, possibly even more, responsible? |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Just a point of point... Newsweek, as have so many other "tabloids", have taken the low road to gain readers, akin to [gasp] The Enquirer... It is always up to every individual to delve into the truth, from the most honorable sources as there are that still exist... Period. I truly admire everyone for keeping their cool over a most appalling incident...[incident...what a contemporary word...let's place in confrontation/skirmish/fight and we may still be on target...] Yes, I read behind the scenes; that so many of you can be so well equipped with probable intelligent rhetoric makes me think, "why aren't you running for office!!!???" Ah... You are the peace keepers. I applaud, and thank you, for that. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 Oh Balladeer, I am glad we've had this conversation, as I believe conflict is necessary often and helps us achieve maturity and awareness amongst one another. You have your opinions on the state of the press and I have mine, but our voices essentially are like their own form of press also! Regardless of our differences, I really would like also to shift from debate toward dialogue here on this story itself. I believe using both techniques of communication really help us unravel so much! Sunshine's right. I've browsed the boob tube earlier today, and I just saw so much emotional noise and verbal abuse all down the column virtually. I too recognize that I was speaking in a higher volume earlier as I feel we all were and I apologize it had to come to that. I never enjoy talking like that and I suppose just flet I had to because it was crucial for me to offer another side of the story with the pressure dawning on me. But I am so proud in that we are able to handle this more maturely. Anyway, there's an investigation happening right now in exactly how authentic or not the Quran descecration incident itself was not in relation to the Newsweek article. We'll just have to see what happens and I truly want to make an effort in discussing this on neutral ground. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I agree, Noah, and I know that those in this discussion right now will handle this thread the right way....well, the jury's still out on Sunshine  |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Reb: Hmmm. Could it be the people who would kill their own upon receiving word that soldiers of a foreign land used their holy book as TP? Newsweek published an inaccurate, poorly substantiated sentence in their story. That's a problem. We have religious zealots who consider killing their countrymen less onerous than desecrating the Qur'an. That's insane. Jim |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Sadly, there will always be those who desperately seek for any and all outside reasons to justify their own actions to themselves and their peers, or to convice others of the same agenda. Clansmen will seek out stories of anyone not of their melanomic tincture to justify lynching and cross burning. The IRA seeks fresh reasons for continued violence when King Henry VIII's religious antagonism fades. Neo-fascists, Islamic extremists, Christian extremists, environmental extremists, the list goes on and on. The Human Race is pretty good, it's just the people that mess it up. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
and it makes ya wonder, will it ever change, when will they learn? History, history, history!!!! |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
From the play [u]Madah-Sartre[/u] by Alek Baylee, a native Algerian, Kabyle writer. (translated by James D. Le Sueur in [u]Uncivil War[/u]). In the play, a radical Algerian militant, Madah, captures the ghosts of Sartre and another European intellectual. When Sartre learns that his colleague will be killed again, Sartre engages his captor in a debate: quote: I'm looking forward to the full English translation this fall. Jim |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I don't expect we'll read anything in the main stream press laying the blame where it really belongs...with the extremists and with Newsweek. No surprises there. And somehow this all makes sense to these seemingly otherwise intelligent people. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44338 |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
You know what I really don't understand here, though? How now so many have suddenly come out praising Isikoff, and then believe all the blame should be laid on Newsweek's editors and management, but Isikoff himself happens to be the primary reporter of this very story. Here's what Brit Hume said Monday on Special report: "This is Michael Isikoff, the veteran investigative journalist, a guy we all know, who has been on this program, somebody who has compiled a pretty good record over the years." The same day, here's what GOP consultant Ed Rogers said on CNN's "Crossfire": "Hey, I don't know what can be done, but a lot of damage has been inflicted, and so there's going to be a lot of hue and cry here in Washington. There's going to be calls for investigations. There's going to be calls for reform. But who knows what's going to happen? I mean, the next shoe to drop, but it never will, because they won't reveal their source, but was this just an opponent of the administration trying to make life difficult that made up this story and that gave it to Newsweek? Now, the reporter that wrote this is actually a big-time pro, who I don't think could be deceived. But nonetheless, it has real consequences, and it's done real harm, so there ought to be a real inquiry into this." Meanwhile, other voices have totally let Isikoff go while bashing others at Newsweek, like Sean Hannity on Monday: "By the way, I don't think it's Isikoff. I think it's the people above him, just for the record, Bill. They make the decision, not Isikoff. He doesn't decide what gets in that magazine." It's not just self-described conservatives that have been saying things like this either. Chris Matthews also praised Isikoff: "Well, Newsweek is going to have to catch up to the Post. Anyway, thank you very much. Isikoff, by the way, is one hell of a reporter. I hate to see this happen to him. What a great reporter he is. He's been on the tail of a lot of people in this town." * What the heck is going on here? This isn't just coming from self-described conservatives who may have this attitude right now towards Isikoff because of his major role in Bill Clinton's sex scandal investigation, but this seems to be the general attitude across the whole television news landscape. Why is he getting a free pass if he's been apparently heavily linked to the story? Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I would guess it's because Newsweek's editors decide what gets published, not the writers, no matter their credentinials or political leanings. By the by, although this moderate-lib R thinks Isikoff should be held accountable for an unsubstantiated story that caused such a bruhaha across a third of this planet, I really haven't heard any self-prescribed liberals calling for his head either. Thanks for the link, Denise. I don't agree with all of what Coulter says, but she did give a fairly interesting timeline of what stories Isikoff broke and wrote that Newsweek, and other publications he worked for, printed and which ones were sat on. And then for me to look at how quickly and frequently stories against the war, against the President, against his Administration are found in publications. No political bias in media? No liberal, progressive, or left leaning bias in media? Pull the other one. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Results may vary, I guess, but I'm a self-described liberal and I believe he must do the time for being part of the crime. I'm not saying either that it seems all self-described conservatives are defending Isikoff, it just seems to be the general attitude across the media landscape right now. Obviously, I disagree with Coulter just about all the time, as I just can't take seriously someone who keeps writing books about how all liberals in general are traitors to America, but I find her timeline of Isikoff to be fair. But I totally disagree with her claims of liberal-media bias when in fact Ted Kennedy made up 2 out of 3 anti-war interviews on all the major networks in the weeks leading up to the war with all 390 others pro-war. Add to that the continuing trend of major network media coverage without progressive hosts, with the very small oass that is David Brancaccio on "NOW!". I still never find any major network news that's really crucial of the war, and I have to go to the likes of "Democracy Now!" and Free Speech Radio News to find those voices which are still being considered unpopular, when in fact opposition to the war has become quite popular in the nation now. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I still never find any major network news that's really crucial of the war No, you don't, Noah, simply because they are too crafty for that. Instead they prefer to come in the back door. When's the last time you heard any positivity about Iraq? Believe it or not, there are many - and soldiers returning will be happy to point them out with pride. What about the new schools, the infrastructure advancements, the new freedoms many Iraqis are happy to have? No, you won't see them. Instead you will get a picture of an American female soldier standing over a naked suspected terrorist. You will get misinformation about Bush's service record. You will get Rather's fiasco. Something good about the soldiers' work in Iraq? No, you will get a made-up report of flushing the Koran down the toilet. No, they are too smart to openly come out and condemn the war because, somewhere in the journalist handbook, it's pointed out that their job is to REPORT the news, not praise or condemn it. So that's what they do....they report every negative thing they can find as news and ignore any positives. Terrorists are beheading people? SOLDIERS ARE DISRESPECTING THE RIGHTS OF TERRORISTS IN CAPTIVITY!!! Terrorists are blowing up men, women, and children by teaching their youth to carry suicide bombs? WE'RE FLUSHING THE KORAN DOWN THE TOILET!!! They can't find enough negativity? Make it up!! They are right about one thing. Something IS going down the toilet - their reputation. |
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JoshG Member
since 2004-11-16
Posts 127TX, USA |
I have to agree with ya Balladeer! |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Linda Vestner's 'Dayside' on FoxNews is about the only news show I've seen which frequently, openly, proudly, and unashamedly give air to positive stories in Afghanistan and Iraq, from US soldiers, Iraqi and Afghan military, civilian contractors, citizens. The producers of the show decided to do that since they saw a real lacking in anything positive being showcased, much less mentioned in passing. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
You're absolutely right on one thing, Balladeer, their reputation is indeed flushing down the toilet. Where I think we may not seem eye to eye are the means of it all. I think virtually our entire media landscape is so discredited right now because there is a total lack of truth-telling and because of irresponsible journalists who don't check their behaviors or facts with third groups. The press is just in a disastrous shape right now. It's a shame, once again, that these few irresponsible, partisan-minded types of journalists could altogether give journalism a horn effect atmosphere, when, in fact, there are many great journalists out there for both sets of ideologies. Then there's the other type of news that's all about talking about the news, where they really don't expect to be held accountable and thus get by with a lot of malapropisms and distorted claims, in which a lot of these shows have had great ratings declines recently as well. There's a lot of argument about coverage of Iraq not being positive at all. I really don't believe it's being real negative either. For instance, Seymour Hersh has been making predictions of what would happen in Iraq from the beginning, and regardless of how long this keeps up, he's been right on most things up to this point. He just hasn't been represented on the airwaves. Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Medea Benjamin, none of them. One thing I can agree with is that the media now is not as enthusiastically for the war now like it was in 2003. From my viewing experience then, there was a lot of excitement and anticipation. Now, there's just a more passive attitude to it, like "Yeah, things could be a lot better right now, but he's just doing his job and we should respect him doing his job until we're finished!" I still consider that attitude essentially supportive of the war and invasion, even when doubts and skepticism have paved much more way since 2003. But outspoken anti-war opinions and personalities still remain generally flushed out to this day, even under a current climate where over half now seem to consistently claim that they disapprove of the way this war is being handled, which I believe that shows the unequal representation or ratio in relation to the way pro-war and anti-war personalities get coverage on the mainstream airwaves, where the ratio is far much wider in favor of those supportive of the war. Looking at it that way is just one way that affirms my belief and attitude in that this most certainly is not a liberal media environment. It's not even conservative either. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: That's certainly the second third of the pie Jim. The more egregious error committed by Newsweek and the White House though is not in anticipating what the reaction in the Muslim community would be to this. To simply categorize it as insane is equally a misunderstanding -- let's take a look at the mainstream Muslim thought on these occurrences; quote: Where the White House has further blundered is publicly interjecting itself in the maelstrom because to the Muslim community it looks like government censoring the media -- both camps get an F. The final third we have to remember is the leaky government official. Was he/she duped, mistaken, or mischievous? Without getting into the logic process since I don't really have time -- I'll just say it smells a little like trace gas -- that is to say -- it smells like someone in whatever department this source came from was looking for a leak, suspected the source in question, and planted the fake story to see if it showed up in the media. It's a classic maneuver. Deer and Noah Let's look at tomorrow's news today; http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Red-Cross -backs-claims-of-Koran-abuse-in-US-prison-camp/2005/05/19/1116361678341.html?oneclick=true It's important to understand what Newsweek has retracted here -- not that the incident in question happened -- but that it is documented in the military report that's about to come out. This allegation has been out there for a long time before now and ICRC says they have credible information and the Pentagon has confirmed. It's also important to note what Newsweek ISN'T retracting from the same story about prisoner abuse -- but since the News Media has become the News Story it gets overlooked -- just like in the Rather incident -- fake (but accurate) documents -- the but accurate part is what kept getting overlooked because of the fake document part. There's nothing like a few inaccurate 'leaks' to draw attention away from the real story. It's important to distinguish too Deer that a propagandist doesn't lie. Lying hurts the propagandists cause. The last thing that's in Newsweek's interest, if it is peddling propaganda, would be to lie -- propaganda is about selective truth telling. Denise; quote: Where are people getting the information about this story if not from the mainstream press? Off the compound with that one. Why don't Isikoff and Newsweek Editors get a free pass? You know, the, 'they were just working off bad intelligence' kind. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Karilea, Nobody would vote for me...  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Reb, you mean the "just working off bad intelligence" kind that had the news media, Democratic presidential wanna-be's and every Democrat on the face of the planet screaming for Bush's head while calling him a liar and murderer? Beats me...I guess as far as the media is concerned, that's a reasonable excuse for them alone. The "planting story" routine was the same thing the Left tried to push with the Rather case. Strikes me funny that half the time they are calling Bush an uneducated, illiterate bozo with no brain and the other half they are basically referring to him as a genius for being able to orchestrate such wonderful baits and deceptions that catch Democrats in his traps with such regularity. Perhaps the liberals caught in these traps should have bumper stickers reading "The Devil Bush Made Me Do It" A propogandist doesn't lie? There are many ways ro lie without actually lying. Fake (but accurate) reporting is one way. Hearst didn't lie, either, I suppose....nor does the Enquirer or Star. If you say there's a difference between them and the mainstream press, I have to say the difference is becoming murkier every day. As far as the rest of the comments concerning Newsweek I found myself humming "Gee, Officer Krumpke" while reading them Newsweek screwed up all by themselves and by their own admission. Saying "We're sorry" doesn't bring back one life that died as a result of it. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
The question Deer -- is why, if we're supposed to excuse sending the nation to war over bad intelligence -- aren't we supposed to excuse a magazine for printing a few words? Scott McClellan didn't see the irony in his argument 'people have died'. Bush does have a brain -- Karl Rove. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
ooops... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, according to Noah (and many others) the nation has NOT forgiven Bush for acting on faulty intelligence....neither has the press and neither has Kennedy, Boxer or any Democratic member of Congress. Besides, as you well know, there is little connection between the two. In one case we are speaking of acting against a hostile nation with reports of nuclear weapons after having suffered 9/11 and the other is about flushing a Koran down the toilet. You really want to compare the two? Let me ask you this. Let's suppose for argument's sake that the Koran/toilet issue were true? What exactly about it was so important that Newsweek would consider it so important that the news got out to the world? Was it the "the public has the right to know" song and dance that has been used since the beginning of time? What made this issue vital to be aired? Certainly Newsweek would have to know that it would be very detrimental to our efforts over there. Certainly they would know that it would make the work of our soldiers and civilians more difficult and more dangerous. Why was it so important to them to get this "incredible news story" out to the world that any consequences would be inconsequential to them? I'm sure you know the answer to that question as well as I and a large percentage of the population do and it has nothing to do with "the public's right to know".....as you well know. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
aren't we supposed to excuse a magazine for printing a few words? Beats me...let's ask the families of the two dozen people who died as a result of those few words or the people caught in the riots those few words created. They may havea different idea.... but, hey, what the heck. The evil "Koran in the Toilet" incident has been exposed and that's what counts..... |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: Nothing, 'Deer, other than to possibly incite the religious right. quote: Won't know, Reb, until you throw your hat into the ring! |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: While it's a little awkward to argue for the importance of Truth in the face of inaccurate reporting, some of us don't believe that's just a song and a dance, Mike. Some of us believe knowing what's happening in our world is a both fundamental right and the foundation for all responsibility. Aside from tactical information, which clearly needs to be protected from enemy access, the Truth belongs to all of us. Freedom founded on ignorance and lies isn't really freedom, but just a different kind of bondage. Those unable to stand in the light of Truth, be it reporters or politicians or nations, deserve to be -- and I think inevitably will be -- brought to their knees. That's not just a song and dance, Mike. It's the crux of all freedoms. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Reb: 1. Many Americans are strongly religious. 2. A few years ago, the painting "Piss Christ" caused an uproar against Christian conservatives who regarded the work as tax-funded blasphemy. 3. How many people were killed? I think "insane" is a fair characterization of both parties involved in the violence: (1) megalomaniacal political opportunists who misuse the zeal of certain Muslims to carry out acts of violence "in the name of Islam" and (2) the delusional acceptance of the words of the imams by radical Muslims who have been (mis)lead to believe that the Qur'an justifies the violence they have dealt out on their countrymen. Part of the problem is with the Qur'an itself, the latter half which was written by Mohammad during his imperialistic phase. The second and related problem is with the disproportionate control of Mosques by imperialistic Islamic factions. While it is true that the majority of Muslims are not radical religious imperialists, it is also true that the majority of Mosques are led by radical religious imperialists. At the philosophical level, I have little problem with Mohammad's early writings. He was, in fact, more a religious than political reformer in those early days and, while I question the authenticity of his revelations, I (as you know) have a soft place in my heart for reformers. His life, however, exemplifies what often happens to good people when given nigh-absolute authority and, unfortunately, his legacy has been defined in modern times by his later, revolutionary ideas. It should also be noted that Christians who kill (such as the guy who killed Dr. Gunn outside an abortion clinic) cannot defend their actions without grossly distorting Biblical guidance on right behavior. Qur'anic references to jihad are not so easily laid to rest. Jim |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Speaking of tabloids, The Sun has a new edition, with a photo of Saddam in very white briefs. What The Sun quite failed to understand, or really didn't care about, is that the distribution of such a photo is a very clear violation of the Geneva Convention. Whoever leaked/gave/sold that picture, and whoever printed that picture should be tried in accordance to the Geneva Convention. I quite fail to understand the purpose of even taking such a photo, but whoever did on whomever's orders, both should be held by the same yardstick as the ones who distributed and printed it. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
That's not just a song and dance, Mike. It's the crux of all freedoms. Yes, of course Ron, that is understood. That soapbox, however, is out of place in this incident unless you sincerely feel that the reason for that article to be printed was the media's drive for truth and justice to be spread around the globe. I think too highly of you to feel you believe that to be true. The media is power. Along with that power comes responsibility. I'll ask you the same question I asked LR. Aside from the fact it was later admitted to be false, do you feel that the media handled the situation responsibly by printing this article? Yes, you may go back into generalities and say no one has the right to tell any media what to print but I'm asking you about this particular one. Can you honestly tell me you don't feel that it was released as a propoganda weapon against Bush, irregardless of the consequences to Americans everywhere? There's really no need to sermonize about the constitution and the rights of free speech here in this instance. We all know why they did it. Was it worth it? Was this topic that newsworthy on its own merits? Could the printing of this article have any positive merit whatsoever? What is it? I'd like to know... |
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Balladeer
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Member Empyrean
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Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
As I have said before, over the past so many months, terrorists have kidnapped civilians, distributed video of them beheading innocent victims, bombed churches, shopping centers, schools and killed countless Iraqi citizens and the majority of the headlines have been composed of The US insensitivities to prisoners. We shot pictures of them naked. We flushed their holy book down the toilet. (Oops, was that a head rolling by?) The terrorists don't need to do anything. The greatest weapon they have is our own media. Our media and their hatred of Bush is the most powerful weapon the terrorists have. Our media has done more damage that any terrorist could ever hope to accomplish. If the terrorist groups were able to get together and hand out medals, the United States media would receive their highest award....and CBS might even televise the event!  But, hey, let the heads roll where they may. The media is exercising their right that the country they are abusing with their power gave them. Nothing is their fault because they are just innocent bystanders reporting the news. If the stick they jab the beehive with causes bees to come out and sting people....hey, they didn't tell the bees to come out and hurt anyone!May they all feel very proud..... |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
By the way, as an afterthought, the media admitted that, before the war, they were aware of all the behind the scenes atrocities that were being conducted by Hussein against the Iraqi people but they didn't speak out because, to do so would have resulted in their expulsion from Iraq so they kept quiet while the atrocities went on. Where was their "drive for the truth" then or their "public has the right to know" speeches then? |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: As Ali stated...A Geneva gaff. But what's with the "redness" around the neck? Seems to me that this could possibly be a "superimposed" picture? http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,15357022%255E401,00.html [This message has been edited by Sunshine (05-20-2005 03:11 PM).] |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
It's been admitted the age of the photo is well over a year old, shortly after Saddam's capture due to physical changes and appearance in the subsequent time. Basically, it ain't new. Which gives interesting questions into the timing of the release in The Sun and a paper in the US who's name eludes me, yanno, so soon after the Gitmo farce. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: I'm going to allow Ike to answer your question Mike. quote: How do we remain alert and knowledgeable as citizens without an independent and investigative press? I'll be back with more later guys -- sorry, tired here. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quickie for Cat... I don't think the GC applies to Saddam since he is a criminal prisoner of the soveriegn nation of Iraq and not a POW of a GC signatory. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
...and you believe, reb, that printing about a Koran in the toilet goes along with helping us remain alert and informed? You believe that NOT printing about a Koran in the toilet would endanger our liberties and democratic processes? You believe that's a positive in this case? I'd give a lot to be able to raise Ike from the dead and get his opinion on this one and ask him if that's what he met....sorry, LR, no disrespect intended but I find that reasoning extremely weak. I can see in cases where it may apply but not here. We can talk around why the article was printed forever but I think you know that answer as well as anyone and simply not mentioning it does not make it not so nor does dressing it up in fancy ideals which it doesn't have. A pig with lipstick on is still a pig. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Patience Mike. Patience. There are no pigs in lipstick here -- but one thing at a time -- quote: Actually Mike, I don't think you do. What I've already said; quote: Hardly generalities -- but let's get even more specific with a sequence of events; Allegations of prisoner and Koran abuse surface in the mediasphere a couple of years ago. This is important because if we want to win this war on terror and not have to fight the entire Muslim population of the world (see my previous and subsequent responses to Jim) we have to be aware of and engaged in the oversight of what our military does. A top official (unknown specifically from what part of the government but it is perfectly logical to assume that he or she has security clearance to read classified documents since he is trusted by Newsweek to have actually read the forthcoming report from the military) comes to Isikoff and says that there is confirmation in the said forthcoming report that the Koran-in- the-toilet incident occured. Isikoff takes the information to Newsweek along with a laundry list of other abuses. Newsweek takes the information to another government official to verify. The second government official objects to some of the information but doesn't mention the Koran-in-the-toilet incident. Newsweek takes this as confirmation (obviously a huge mistake and just plain lazy journalism.) Newsweek prints the story? Why? Because they are in the BUSINESS of delivering the news and always hope to deliver it before anyone else does. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by fabricating a story or printing one from someone else they believe is lying because the military report is going to be released and the item either is or is not in there. The story remains in the mediasphere for eleven days before someone in the Pentagon says -- oh -- not true. Isikoff goes back to the original source who says 'gee I can't really remember where I read that.' If this was Propaganda Mike -- then it was about to be released by the Military itself -- Newsweek thought it was scooping the report -- how is THAT propaganda? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
How convenient that Newsweek did not show such adamant reasoning during the Clinton decade. Time after time, Newsweek sat on the research, reporting and articles by Isikoff about Clinton and Lewinsky's affair, Clinton's sexual abuses in positions of power (state DA, governor, President), and perjury to a Federal grand jury. However, change Clinton to Bush and everything is not only legitimate, but newsworthy, no matter the cost. Well, except for the cost to self. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Actually, as far as the military releasing this information I'm interested in hearing about how the military was going to do it. Would it have been done in the same way, more or less, that Newsweek did? WOuld it have received the world-wide exposure Newsweek's article did? I'm sincerely not sure what is meant by saying the military was going to release it. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by fabricating a story or printing one from someone else they believe is lying Personally, I think there is, depending on what results people are trying to obtain. In my opinion, the Newsweeks, Rathers, Jennings and other parts of the media have one unifying agenda - they want us to fail in Iraq or, at least, they want to make it as hard as possible. The why is a given. Success in Iraq might, in some ways, favor Bush. It could even validate some of his decisions. That thought is abhorrent to them. They spew out all of the negatives they can...any positives don't see the light of day. Does it matter that it makes everything so much harder on our soldiers there? Does it matter that it supplies ammunition to the terrorist movements? Does it matter that it dirties our reputation as a nation in the Muslim world? Not a bit. If their articles or reports can cause anyone to shower condemnation on the administration they consider all of these by-producrs worth it. If it means fabricating reports just before the election, a la Rather, or running off half-cocked at the smell of a juicy tidbit, a la Newsweek, they will do it. They DO do it! The alternative would be favorable light cast on Bush and that would not be tolerable for them. That's what they have to gain by lying, fabricating or engaging in tabloid sensationalism....just IMHO. Alicat, you could not be more right...but good luck on getting left-dwellers to acknowledge those facts. Ain't gonna happen.... |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
You're missing the difference Cat -- first -- Ann is a really good propagandist because she engages in selective truth telling to the utmost -- just like Michael Moore -- you know -- showing us a picture of a peaceful, happy-go-lucky Iraq that is suddenly bombed by the U.S. -- both real pictures -- but put together so as to tell a story that isn't the whole story and supports his viewpoint. So, what Ann does -- is selectively tell you about a few stories that Newsweek doesn't run -- she doesn't mention the other stories that they elect not to run because the list would be so long as to be impossible to print -- even if one buys ink by the barrel. Second -- there was no forthcoming military report about Bill Clinton's humvee in the Oval Office -- what you have in this instance is information that Newsweek thinks the GOVERNMENT is about to release -- THAT's always NEWS! And they (the military) would release it in it's report form Mike -- plain and simple -- it would behoove no news organization to fabricate information about what's going to be released in an official report because it's merely a matter of time before they are shown to be liars. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Where were there any facts supplied ? |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Good grief! I don't have the strength, desire or time left alive to go into Clinton and the media...again. If you want to claim that Willie wsa not the press' fair-haired boy and didn't get any preferential treatment from them with regards to his too-many-to-count foibles, be my guest So, getting back to my original question, are you saying that the government's military report would have had the same impact as the embellished version of Newsweek's....since news is news no matter where it comes from? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
You mean the media that sold billions of dollars worth of advertising talking all about Clinton's foibles in lurid detail? That media? That media LOVED Bill Clinton! Jim quote: Sure, you and I might say that sitting around the table at lunch -- and it would be an interesting discussion -- I have, myself, called men who would fly into a building in hopes of becoming a Martyr and obtaining virgins in heaven for wives -- insane... but there is a whole list of things in my opinion that many Christian's believe and do to be insane. But that's irrelevant because I believe that freedom of religion is SANE. This statement; quote: Also lumps the mainstream moderate Muslims in with it because they also take desecration of the Koran very seriously -- as I previously pointed out -- but I like your more specific clarification better. quote: Across the cultural divide many look at Christian culture and view the cannibalistic practice of devouring the chief prophet's flesh and drinking his blood in order to obtain salvation barbaric and insane. There is certainly a divide amongst differing Christians as to the importance of various religious artifacts. The Catholics in particular tend to place more emphasis on the power and meaning of a Crucifix, a statue of a Saint, Holy Water -- even Hitler had sense enough to leave the Holy See alone. The handling of the Koran is codified and held closely in mainstream Muslim practice as well, and the U.S. Military even had to issue a specific set of rules for the handling of the Koran at GITMO: quote: When we consider this religion doesn't accommodate forgiveness of sin -- but rather atonement -- it becomes a bit clearer as to why code violations are important. Which leads us to the part that's germane to Deer's questions as well -- Some of the Islamic laws being violated at GITMO: A suspect is tied to a chair and placed in a room where a female interrogator does a partial striptease and gives him a lapdance. (if this is torture I volunteer -- but we're not talking about me) The interrogator then whispers in his ear, 'How does Allah feel about you being aroused by an Infidel?' She then reaches into her crotch, withdraws her hand soaked in red ink, and splashes it on the suspect who is told the ink is menstrual blood. This guy now believes he is headed straight to hell. Is this the kind of behavior that we want our military to engage in? If they're doing it -- don't we need to know it? Which leads us to the part of the argument that you're getting RIGHT Mike -- which I'm going to post tomorrow -- sometime -- my son's birthday -- taking him and 9 of his friends to see Revenge of the Sith. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Whew, a lot has been said since the last time yesterday where I've had the time to discuss my thoughts, LOL! I was busy working for KBOO News much of the day as both producer, reporter and audio editor, so I certainly had my hands full! That's OK though! So let me just review a few particular comments made here I find most important to respond to. quote: The answer's simple, Balladeer. Because it is wrong. And you're right that there overall is no real beneficial value to sharing the information. Nevertheless, it's as though you're saying that citing all the bad things happening at Abu Ghraib shouldn't be allowed and is nothing but detrimental to our mission, which all those atrocities must be known and be made available to the public simply because it is wrong and to cultivate a sense of wareness to what is happening and speaking for a huge outcry against that form of abuse. I'm not defending Newsweek here for their truly irresponsible behavior, but it's also important to note out that the American Red Cross has a number of times before cited incidents of Quran descecration, which its origin is said to link back to the 1980's when it was done in Afghan-Russian conflicts. It's also interesting that Condoleezza Rice, though condemning Newsweek's actions, hasn't said the story was untrue. quote: Aside from your claims that the media portrays a generally antagonistic attitde towards Bush and his agenda, which I strongly disagree with and believe that the media actually has a generally favorable view of this administration, I absolutely agree with you that our own media is the cause of so much of what is wrong with our culture and the world right now, and continues to fail to answer questions and only incite more problems and mass confusion. I just believe our culture is being domianted by one of the single most deadly viruses; fear. Our media and society is being fueled by fear everyday, and it is terribly unhealthy for we and the children. I believe we have to return to a type of mentality where we don't let the threat of terrorism dominate our lives and water cooler conversations. I believe we can do that AND not being passive about it in this conflict management and resolution. The fact that so much of our media landscape had come out defending Isikoff also affirms my understanding of where the media directs itself. They go out blasting on and on about Newsweek, but let Isikoff off the hook. That right there is an example of that "greatest weapon" you speak of. quote: I absolutely agree with you there, Alicat, and I absolutely see where you see that Geneva Convention violation. Look, there's no question Hussein is a murderous, barbaric man. Nevertheless, what type of message does it send the rest of the world when you go and present a sort of picture like that? There's no dignity, no class behind that, and to some it would only portray some negative indication of an American hegemony or something of that sort. America is unique because even when we're already aware and find obvious the cruel things many men have done, we still treat prisoners of war in true discipline, especially up until the time they are formally charged. As a sidenote to that, what is particularly interesting is that The Sun and the New York Post are both Rupert Murdoch publications. quote: I can sense you are very angry right now, and I can respect and understand why that would be, so I'll try and make my strong opinions here as brief as I can. It didn't take me some sort of Newsweek story for me to understand that war is wrong. It didn't take me some Dan Rather or Walter Cronkite or Bruce Springsteen song for me to understand that war is cynical and disastrous. Certainly to some it may be that way, but I've always just felt it deep down from the tears and screams and agony alone, and where everything else just checks my perceptions. Why I don't believe we should be in Iraq, or have ever been there to begin with, at the core, has nothing to do politically. It's all about reason, about what is sound. Why should tens of thousands of Iraqis who have nothing to do with terrorist camps have to perish or suffer like this? Why couldn't Bush and McClellan and others have that same sort of attitude towards Iraq that they have towards resolving the conflicts in Uzbekistan, which is home to a dictatorship no less brutal than Hussein's was. McClellan clearly said last weekend that we must resolve this through peace and that is their message to the world. And anyone has still failed to answer to me here why that couldn't be the attitude towards handling the conflict with Saddam and Iraq. This war has clearly brought out the worst in both America and the world. Those critical of the Newsweek incident damaging America's image worldwide can say that all they want, but the fact is from the very beginning the opposition to the war worldwide has been massive, and we had huge Iraqi protests, car bombing after car bombing, beheadings, etc. well before that story ever got aired, not to mention staggering disapproval ratings by 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 margins in almost every country to the war. And I do believe Newsweek's irresponsibility inspired that outburst of violence, but the fact is this war already inspired this massive tension and antagonism in the region. In the end, I find, the bottom line is that this administration took us to war on absolutely false claims, and Newsweek encouraged that incident of violence. The only difference is Newsweek, even when you can't really measure sincerity and I agree could have been disingenuous, apologized, and the Bush Administration hasn't. I want this Iraq mission to be aborted simply because I believe this tension is not going to start ending until we stop the occupation. I want this mission to be aborted because I don't want any more innocent people hurt. I want this mission to be aborted because I want our credibility to be restored and our international relations to be rebuilt. Finally, I want this mission to be aborted because it's this mission that's bringing out the worst in us all. I recognize I've expressed myself very passionately here, so I'd like to try and end on a more encouraging note. Every day for a long time I shook my head at what I've seen on the news, with all the propaganda and lack of truth-telling. You know what I did? I recognized the familiar saying, "Don't hate the media, become the media!" And that certainly doesn't mean conform either. It means if you don't like what you hear, well, work to see how you can be heard. So I've been volunteering a lot at KBOO, my local community radio station. They follow a charter where we promote unpopular opinions that focus on international relations, human rights, environment, peace studies, etc. I'm blessed to be among them. Here, I'm proud to present to you my first story I've reported on: http://www.kboo.fm/admin/audio/mp3/3%20KBOO%20News%200520.mp3 The point here is, this is only one small step to progress to having our desired voices heard and it may not solve many of the problems with our media now, but if you are truly frustrated over what you're seeing, I encourage you to take some time and volunteer at your local newspaper or, perhaps you have a community station near your community. I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'd be happy to see you get your voice heard!  As far as everything else goes, we just must be ever vigilant and play a role in holding these outlets accountable. I know that may sound terribly cliche and hopeless, but I remain optimistic we'll eventually find a middle ground and try and suit one another's needs. Whew, I said a lot. Until tomorrow, g'night to y'all! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
The second government official objects to some of the information but doesn't mention the Koran-in-the-toilet incident. Newsweek takes this as confirmation (obviously a huge mistake and just plain lazy journalism.) Newsweek prints the story? Why? Because they are in the BUSINESS of delivering the news and always hope to deliver it before anyone else does. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by fabricating a story or printing one from someone else they believe is lying because the military report is going to be released and the item either is or is not in there. The second government official objects to some of the information but doesn't mention the Koran-in-the-toilet incident. Newsweek takes this as confirmation (obviously a huge mistake and just plain lazy journalism.) Newsweek prints the story? Why? Because they are in the BUSINESS of delivering the news and always hope to deliver it before anyone else does. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by fabricating a story or printing one from someone else they believe is lying because the military report is going to be released and the item either is or is not in there. The story remains in the mediasphere for eleven days before someone in the Pentagon says -- oh -- not true. Isikoff goes back to the original source who says 'gee I can't really remember where I read that.' If this was Propaganda Mike -- then it was about to be released by the Military itself -- Newsweek thought it was scooping the report -- how is THAT propaganda? That's where it all falls down on Newsweek's shoulders, reb. Newsweek thought they were scooping the Pentagon but, due to their "lazy journalism" and their rush to get it out and get at Bush, they wind up printing a story that was not even going to come out. The riots and the deaths occured because of the non-story THEY ran with that was not even part of the news release they were trying to beat. Shoddy....no, criminal. Best wishes to your son on his birthday |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Me: What made this issue vital to be aired? Noah: The answer's simple, Balladeer. Because it is wrong. Fine, Noah. Tell that to the victims who died in the riots it caused. Tell it to our soldiers bearing further hardships because of it. Easy for one to sit there untouched by it all and wax righteously in much the same way you say how ousting Hussein was so wrong and too bad that thousands of children were dying of starvation and people were filling mass graves under Hussein's rule. Why should tens of thousands of Iraqis who have nothing to do with terrorist camps have to perish or suffer like this? Noah, where was that concern when tens of thousands were suffering and dying under Hussein's rule? I want this mission to be aborted because I don't want any more innocent people hurt. Noah, it's the terrorists killing them. So easy for us to be righteous out of harm's way. Problem is the thing that was wrong reporting that information to the public was the information itself. People died because Newsweek was not professional enough to verify its actions. Because it's wrong? That would be small comfort to the mothers of the victims, Noah. You did make some good points, however, ans when I have time I'll address them.....peace. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I never said that Saddam shouldn't be ousted. I've just been saying from the beginning, "Why was war the inevitable way in ousting him?". Why couldn't we have resolved this in the same manner McClellan wants to make towards Islam Karimov? There's another question I have, by the way. Earlier this week, as you know, Bush and others went out to condemn what Newsweek did in a press meeting. However, in response to the new Saddam photos published in The Sun while appearing with Denmark's prime Minister Anders Rasmussen, he says this: "I don't think a photo inspires murders. I think they are inspired by an ideology that is so barbaric and backwards that it's hard for many in the Western world to comprehend how they think." Is this just simply another double standard? In that I mean Bush would go out to condemn a publication that is often argued among pundits in favor of his policies to be liberal for the press they release, yet doesn't express the same attitude towards two papers that perform a similar sort of stunt, which also happen to be Rupert Murdoch-owned and papers which endorsed his re-election campaign in 2004. I really am concerned here. Thoughts and opinions please. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Two points. 1: 12 years of failed and corrupted diplomacy towards Iraq and Saddam. Only a few years diplomacy towards Iran, Korea, and a few other places who's -istan name eludes me. 2: Since Fox News believes in and practices disclosure, Murdoch's connection to the Sun and other one were disclosed. The 'parent company of this network', to quote more accurately. Also, unless Mr. Murdoch is the most anally retentative micro-manager, he merely owns those publications and networks, not runs them. If you could quote the question to which you quoted President Bush's answer, that would be very helpful in putting his answer into proper context. I think the question was along the lines of 'Do you believe this photo will lead to more violence?' To which President Bush answered as he did. I have very little doubt that it was Al-Jazeera and like-minded stations that gave massive airtime to the Newsweek fabrication, claiming it as gospel truth. I would not in the least bit be surprised, given their track record and leanings. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Sure, Alicat, absolutely. I agree it would have been very helpful if I had added the question to begin with so we understand the relational and physical context of the meeting. I've been trying to find a White House meeting transcript from Friday, which I haven't been able to find yet, but after catching some C-SPAN coverage, he was basically asked if he thought the pictures would stoke more anti-Americanism in Iraq and the Middle East, and Bush was silent between three-five seconds in doubt before responding. I'll continue to try and find an official transcript because I don't want there to be anything misleading coming out of this. And you may be absolutely right about Rupert Murdoch's limited personal influence with the newspapers just because he happens to own them. I just felt it important to at least take note of that but not meaning to make inflated allegations that Murdoch surely endorsed the photos off-hand. The real concern I was making there is where this same sort of stunt is coming from these other publications, Bush just seems to be showing inconsistency, he can't seem to set his story straight. Tha's what I'm concerned about. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Wait, I've found it! Duh! It was a White House press meeting, so I finally thought the official web-site would have it! (smacks head) (giggles) http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/05/20050520-1.html Q Sir, are you worried that the publication of the Saddam photo, along with the Newsweek story, will further inflame tensions and inspire the Iraq insurgency and anti-Americanism in the Middle East? PRESIDENT BUSH: I think the Iraq insurgency is inspired by their desire to stop the march of freedom. Remember, these are ideologues of -- that murder innocent people in order to spread their dark vision of hate. And, therefore, when light begins to show up in the form of democracy, it frightens them. There is no future for these haters in a free world. And so they're inspired by the fact that they see democracy emerging in Iraq. That's what causes them to want to kill. They're frightened by the fact -- and inspired the wrong way, by the way -- by the fact that Afghanistan is free. They're seeing the people in Lebanon demand free and fair elections. And their ideology cannot survive in a democratic society. See, the only way they can survive is to -- is to try to shake our will by killing innocent life. And that's why our strategy in Iraq is to train the Iraqis so that they, themselves, can fight off these terrorists. Listen, eight-and-a-half million people went to the polls, in spite of the fact that the -- people had been killed and there was incredible intimidation. And they defied the bombers. These people want to be free, and the killers don't want them to be free. And so our strategy is to help the Iraqis realize the dream of a free society. And when the Iraqi troops are properly trained -- and we're headed in that direction -- of course, it will take less of a coalition effort to help this new democracy get started. Yes, Steve. Q What about the Saddam photo? Does that have any -- THE PRESIDENT: Well, you asked me whether or not that would inspire people. You know, I don't think a photo inspires murderers. I think they're inspired by an ideology that is so barbaric and backwards that it's hard for many in the Western world to comprehend how they think. But I would just remind people, if you want to know how ideologically grim their vision of the world is, just remember the Taliban. They said, if you don't agree with our religious views you'll be prosecuted; if you're a woman who seeks freedom, you'll be beaten. So these people are motivated by a vision of the world that is backward and barbaric." So, yeah, when you get the surrounding responses added to the direct quotation, it can always produce different perceptions or feelings often. Still, there's inconsistent behavior from Bush between how he was condemning Newsweek earlier in the week and how he expressed doubt and silence at the end of this week towards The Sun and the New York Post. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Heh. The NY Post? Now, The Sun I could certainly understand, since they make no pretext about being anything other than a tabloid. The New York Post, given their history, might as well include Page 3 girls and be true to their nature. As for President Bush's pauses, I'll give this. Unlike President Clinton, who was a great Statesman, but not, at least in my book, a great President, Bush is not a very good public speaker. President Clinton was an OK to poor President, due his disregard for laws, quite surprising since he was a lawyer, and somehow managed to take a country entering an economic boom and leave it in a recession, which started around 1997, but an excellent public speaker. And he still is. Clinton could sell ice to Eskimos without breaking a sweat. President Bush is an OK to good president, at least in my view given his circumstances, but is definately not a good public speaker. This is something not even talented speech righters can correct, since President Bush is a self-professed malaprop and does attempt to think before he speaks. He is not nearly as glib as his predecessor. Time will tell, but so far there has not been the amount of violence and death with the Saddam photos as there were within hours of the Newsweek story hitting the Arabic stations. Keep in mind the rationalization: With the Newsweek story, rioters were claiming that as their impetus for their actions. Only time will tell if others claim the Saddam photos as their excuses. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
AP News 05-22-2005 Behind the recent rise in anti-American sentiment is a now-retracted report in Newsweek that Pentagon investigators had found evidence that interrogators at the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, placed copies of the Quran, the Muslim holy book, in washrooms to unsettle suspects and flushed a Quran down a toilet. "We in principle don't reject anyone's visit to the Al Aqsa Mosque (compound), but we see in the visit of Mrs. Bush an attempt to whitewash the face of the United States, after the crimes that the American interrogators had committed when they desecrated the Quran," the militant Islamic Hamas group said in a statement on its Web site. Thanks again, fellas... |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Yes, Alicat, and let me just add that while I absolutely agree Bush is not an exemplary speaker, I also am not one who likes to always make fun of one's malapropisms as many others do all the time on him and his "Bushisms". I recognize often he misinterprets things or uses the incorrect word in responses, but after all, he recognizes it too and often when he's with Laura and she's toasting him, he always jokes, saying how he loves her because she always corrects his English! So indeed its understandable that he'd need a few seconds to review the question before responding. It's his attitude towards the question I have the particular concern of. I also was expecting that the Saddam photos wouldn't cause as much of an uproar, because, obviously, Saddam is also unpopular among most Iraqis and Middle Easterners. Some protests did erupt out of that though so I do believe it still certainly didn't help ease the tension down there, and indeed violates the Geneva Convention's articles on the humane treatment of detainees. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Ask most teens about a reason to party and get drunk or worse, and you'll get a reason. Ask any extremist about a reason for violence, and you get a reason. Never will you get responsibility, aka 'I'm doing this due to my own beliefs found by my own research.' Those bent on violence -- there's many such people and not all of them are Arabic -- will perpetrate such violence. Some are of very Europian descent, who dress in their varied costumes the day before attending Sunday Service in their Closet Clothes (what I call them that wear their best on Sunday, then wear non-'Sunday' clothes for the rest of the week, if you catch my drift). As for Mrs. Bush, I guess it is happy accident that President Bush married a Librarian. This is a side note. While a senior in high school, it was a tradition in the Church of Christ that I attended that the seniors do 2 functions during the final semester: song leading, prayer, sermon, service. I did prayer and sermon. My sermon was on Church Clothes, how people wear their best suit on Sunday, but not for the rest of the week, keeping their spirituality in the closet until the next Sunday. (Matthew 23:27-28) I was never asked back to deliver a sermon. Go fig. *chuckle* |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I have another question, if I may. How come those outraged about the Newsweek scandal aren't equally as outraged about the fact that the Pentagon lied about how Pat Tillman died? Where's Scott McClellan speaking about what he spoke of to Newsweek there, or at least warning them of consistently distorting accounts? Only recently his family have gotten to read over the military reports, and they are outraged that the government and some military officials would spin the story of his death for the purpose of creating a patriotic afterglow. I believe the Tillman family deserves an apology from the highest Pentagon statute and the White House, which I haven't heard any intention to do so yet. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" |
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Kellie_Cantrell Senior Member
since 2002-05-22
Posts 1667New York |
Check out this link, soon after the newsweek controversy this was posted at a church in N. Carolina we discussed this in my anthropology class. http://www.iflipflop.com/2005/05/im-gonna-flush-that-koran-right-out-of.html |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOL! Baptist churches in North Carolina have nothing to do with religion!!! |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
quote: Obviously, Southern Baptist extremists would rise up and kill their fellow Southern Baptists. Jim |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Maybe it's okay to denigrate a religion and those who practice it as long as we precede all our insults with LOL? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You call that tongue-in-cheek denigration of a religion, Ron? Lemme tell you...even the Baptists in North Carolina joke about some of the overzealous Baptists in North Carolina! Having had a house in the middle of Baptist country in North Carolina for over 20 years gives me a tiny qualification to address the subject. Denigration.....ok, have it your way [This message has been edited by Balladeer (06-05-2005 11:00 AM).] |
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