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All the News (or not) Unfit to Print...

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Balladeer
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25 posted 05-17-2005 09:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, thank you for your thoughts on the actual object of the thread, Noah.  I appreciate it...and, yes, you were wrong about my motivation behind the posting of this thread. There is, of course, little doubt that I consider the press liberal but, in this case, I was outraged at the particular action which cost lives and I would have felt the same if I considered  the press conservative. My rant was was concerned with this event only...
Local Rebel
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26 posted 05-17-2005 09:39 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

No one is faulting anyone with the Koran issue except for the Newsweek reporter who "broke" the story that never happened, and the Newsweek editors who approved a story that never happened, and the Newsweek publishers who published a story that never happened.



Don't you think you're forgetting about someone here Ringo?  Newsweek is certainly culpible for its' own actions and I have no doubt that if there were people rioting in the streets of New York and there were resultant injuries and deaths there would be a class action lawsuit (justifiably) filed with all due haste.  But isn't there someone else that is equally, possibly even more, responsible?
Sunshine
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27 posted 05-17-2005 10:37 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine


Just a point of point...

Newsweek, as have so many other "tabloids", have taken the low road to gain readers, akin to [gasp] The Enquirer...

It is always up to every individual to delve into the truth, from the most honorable sources as there are that still exist...

Period.

I truly admire everyone for keeping their cool over a most appalling incident...[incident...what a contemporary word...let's place in confrontation/skirmish/fight and we may still be on target...]

Yes, I read behind the scenes; that so many of you can be so well equipped with probable intelligent rhetoric makes me think, "why aren't you running for office!!!???"

Ah...

You are the peace keepers.

I applaud, and thank you, for that.

Mistletoe Angel
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28 posted 05-17-2005 11:45 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Oh Balladeer, I am glad we've had this conversation, as I believe conflict is necessary often and helps us achieve maturity and awareness amongst one another. You have your opinions on the state of the press and I have mine, but our voices essentially are like their own form of press also!

Regardless of our differences, I really would like also to shift from debate toward dialogue here on this story itself. I believe using both techniques of communication really help us unravel so much!

Sunshine's right. I've browsed the boob tube earlier today, and I just saw so much emotional noise and verbal abuse all down the column virtually. I too recognize that I was speaking in a higher volume earlier as I feel we all were and I apologize it had to come to that. I never enjoy talking like that and I suppose just flet I had to because it was crucial for me to offer another side of the story with the pressure dawning on me. But I am so proud in that we are able to handle this more maturely.

Anyway, there's an investigation happening right now in exactly how authentic or not the Quran descecration incident itself was not in relation to the Newsweek article. We'll just have to see what happens and I truly want to make an effort in discussing this on neutral ground.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Balladeer
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29 posted 05-18-2005 12:00 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I agree, Noah, and I know that those in this discussion right now will handle this thread the right way....well, the jury's still out on Sunshine
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30 posted 05-18-2005 06:45 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Mistletoe Angel
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31 posted 05-18-2005 01:08 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

jbouder
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32 posted 05-18-2005 01:28 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Reb:

Hmmm.  Could it be the people who would kill their own upon receiving word that soldiers of a foreign land used their holy book as TP?

Newsweek published an inaccurate, poorly substantiated sentence in their story.  That's a problem.  We have religious zealots who consider killing their countrymen less onerous than desecrating the Qur'an.  That's insane.

Jim
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33 posted 05-18-2005 02:23 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Sadly, there will always be those who desperately seek for any and all outside reasons to justify their own actions to themselves and their peers, or to convice others of the same agenda.  Clansmen will seek out stories of anyone not of their melanomic tincture to justify lynching and cross burning.  The IRA seeks fresh reasons for continued violence when King Henry VIII's religious antagonism fades.  Neo-fascists, Islamic extremists, Christian extremists, environmental extremists, the list goes on and on.  The Human Race is pretty good, it's just the people that mess it up.
LeeJ
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34 posted 05-18-2005 03:08 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

and it makes ya wonder, will it ever change, when will they learn?  History, history, history!!!!
jbouder
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35 posted 05-18-2005 03:57 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

From the play [u]Madah-Sartre[/u] by Alek Baylee, a native Algerian, Kabyle writer. (translated by James D. Le Sueur in [u]Uncivil War[/u]).  In the play, a radical Algerian militant, Madah, captures the ghosts of Sartre and another European intellectual.  When Sartre learns that his colleague will be killed again, Sartre engages his captor in a debate:  

quote:
SARTRE: Hate is not something innate.  Hate is a sentiment that one learns from oneís parents, in the family, from oneís friends, in oneís town.  It is above all the fear of the Other, fear mixed with a lot of ignorance.

MADAH: [Provokes Sartre by expressing his intention to rid Algeria of its non-Islamic influences, such as the Berber-descended Kabyle, and their languages.]

SARTRE: [Seeing how his philosophy has been used by first the FLN and now the Islamists, Sartre replies] Ethnic language cleansing!  You want to exterminate culture because it is impure.  It is self-hatred.  How can you hate yourselves so?  Hell is yourselves; it is not Others.

MADAH: Yesterday you condemned Camus.  Today you defend him!

SARTRE: I can assure you that today Camus is against what you are doing.  Camus was for a diverse Algeria, free and democratic.  Certainly, he was against independence because he thought that an Algeria uniquely Arab or Arab-Islamist would end in self-destruction.  History has not proven him wrong.  Your project of a totalitarian Islamic society is a negation of citizenship and the purging of identity.  It is nihilism.

SARTRE: One cannot make two types of societies cohabit if one lives off the death of another.  Itís you or me who must disappear.  Itís Me or You Ö Me or You Ö Me Ö or You Ö Because in the end we can say itís me the Intellectual or you the Anti-intellectual, anti-Semite, pathetic misogynist.


I'm looking forward to the full English translation this fall.

Jim
Denise
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36 posted 05-18-2005 10:22 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't expect we'll read anything in the main stream press laying the blame where it really belongs...with the extremists and with Newsweek. No surprises there. And somehow this all makes sense to these seemingly otherwise intelligent people.  

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44338
Mistletoe Angel
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37 posted 05-19-2005 12:49 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

You know what I really don't understand here, though? How now so many have suddenly come out praising Isikoff, and then believe all the blame should be laid on Newsweek's editors and management, but Isikoff himself happens to be the primary reporter of this very story.

Here's what Brit Hume said Monday on Special report:

"This is Michael Isikoff, the veteran investigative journalist, a guy we all know, who has been on this program, somebody who has compiled a pretty good record over the years."

The same day, here's what GOP consultant Ed Rogers said on CNN's "Crossfire":

"Hey, I don't know what can be done, but a lot of damage has been inflicted, and so there's going to be a lot of hue and cry here in Washington. There's going to be calls for investigations. There's going to be calls for reform. But who knows what's going to happen? I mean, the next shoe to drop, but it never will, because they won't reveal their source, but was this just an opponent of the administration trying to make life difficult that made up this story and that gave it to Newsweek? Now, the reporter that wrote this is actually a big-time pro, who I don't think could be deceived. But nonetheless, it has real consequences, and it's done real harm, so there ought to be a real inquiry into this."

Meanwhile, other voices have totally let Isikoff go while bashing others at Newsweek, like Sean Hannity on Monday:

"By the way, I don't think it's Isikoff. I think it's the people above him, just for the record, Bill. They make the decision, not Isikoff. He doesn't decide what gets in that magazine."

It's not just self-described conservatives that have been saying things like this either. Chris Matthews also praised Isikoff:

"Well, Newsweek is going to have to catch up to the Post. Anyway, thank you very much. Isikoff, by the way, is one hell of a reporter. I hate to see this happen to him. What a great reporter he is. He's been on the tail of a lot of people in this town."

*

What the heck is going on here? This isn't just coming from self-described conservatives who may have this attitude right now towards Isikoff because of his major role in Bill Clinton's sex scandal investigation, but this seems to be the general attitude across the whole television news landscape.

Why is he getting a free pass if he's been apparently heavily linked to the story?

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Alicat
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38 posted 05-19-2005 09:26 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

I would guess it's because Newsweek's editors decide what gets published, not the writers, no matter their credentinials or political leanings.  By the by, although this moderate-lib R thinks Isikoff should be held accountable for an unsubstantiated story that caused such a bruhaha across a third of this planet, I really haven't heard any self-prescribed liberals calling for his head either.

Thanks for the link, Denise.  I don't agree with all of what Coulter says, but she did give a fairly interesting timeline of what stories Isikoff broke and wrote that Newsweek, and other publications he worked for, printed and which ones were sat on.  And then for me to look at how quickly and frequently stories against the war, against the President, against his Administration are found in publications.  No political bias in media?  No liberal, progressive, or left leaning bias in media?  Pull the other one.
Mistletoe Angel
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39 posted 05-19-2005 12:29 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Results may vary, I guess, but I'm a self-described liberal and I believe he must do the time for being part of the crime. I'm not saying either that it seems all self-described conservatives are defending Isikoff, it just seems to be the general attitude across the media landscape right now.

Obviously, I disagree with Coulter just about all the time, as I just can't take seriously someone who keeps writing books about how all liberals in general are traitors to America, but I find her timeline of Isikoff to be fair. But I totally disagree with her claims of liberal-media bias when in fact Ted Kennedy made up 2 out of 3 anti-war interviews on all the major networks in the weeks leading up to the war with all 390 others pro-war. Add to that the continuing trend of major network media coverage without progressive hosts, with the very small oass that is David Brancaccio on "NOW!".

I still never find any major network news that's really crucial of the war, and I have to go to the likes of "Democracy Now!" and Free Speech Radio News to find those voices which are still being considered unpopular, when in fact opposition to the war has become quite popular in the nation now.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Balladeer
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40 posted 05-19-2005 04:31 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I still never find any major network news that's really crucial of the war

No, you don't, Noah, simply because they are too crafty for that. Instead they prefer to come in the back door. When's the last time you heard any positivity about Iraq? Believe it or not, there are many - and soldiers returning will be happy to point them out with pride. What about the new schools, the infrastructure advancements, the new freedoms many Iraqis are happy to have? No, you won't see them. Instead you will get a picture of an American female soldier standing over a naked suspected terrorist. You will get misinformation about Bush's service record. You will get Rather's fiasco. Something good about the soldiers' work in Iraq? No, you will get a made-up report of flushing the Koran down the toilet. No, they are too smart to openly come out and condemn the war because, somewhere in the journalist handbook, it's pointed out that their job is to REPORT the news, not praise or condemn it. So that's what they do....they report every negative thing they can find as news and ignore any positives. Terrorists are beheading people? SOLDIERS ARE DISRESPECTING THE RIGHTS OF TERRORISTS IN CAPTIVITY!!! Terrorists are blowing up men, women, and children by teaching their youth to carry  suicide bombs? WE'RE FLUSHING THE KORAN DOWN THE TOILET!!! They can't find enough negativity? Make it up!!

They are right about one thing. Something IS going down the toilet - their reputation.
JoshG
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41 posted 05-19-2005 04:52 PM       View Profile for JoshG   Email JoshG   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JoshG

I have to agree with ya Balladeer!
Alicat
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42 posted 05-19-2005 06:20 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Linda Vestner's 'Dayside' on FoxNews is about the only news show I've seen which frequently, openly, proudly, and unashamedly give air to positive stories in Afghanistan and Iraq, from US soldiers, Iraqi and Afghan military, civilian contractors, citizens.  The producers of the show decided to do that since they saw a real lacking in anything positive being showcased, much less mentioned in passing.
Mistletoe Angel
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43 posted 05-19-2005 08:18 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

You're absolutely right on one thing, Balladeer, their reputation is indeed flushing down the toilet.

Where I think we may not seem eye to eye are the means of it all. I think virtually our entire media landscape is so discredited right now because there is a total lack of truth-telling and because of irresponsible journalists who don't check their behaviors or facts with third groups.

The press is just in a disastrous shape right now. It's a shame, once again, that these few irresponsible, partisan-minded types of journalists could altogether give journalism a horn effect atmosphere, when, in fact, there are many great journalists out there for both sets of ideologies.

Then there's the other type of news that's all about talking about the news, where they really don't expect to be held accountable and thus get by with a lot of malapropisms and distorted claims, in which a lot of these shows have had great ratings declines recently as well.

There's a lot of argument about coverage of Iraq not being positive at all. I really don't believe it's being real negative either. For instance, Seymour Hersh has been making predictions of what would happen in Iraq from the beginning, and regardless of how long this keeps up, he's been right on most things up to this point. He just hasn't been represented on the airwaves. Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Medea Benjamin, none of them.

One thing I can agree with is that the media now is not as enthusiastically for the war now like it was in 2003. From my viewing experience then, there was a lot of excitement and anticipation. Now, there's just a more passive attitude to it, like "Yeah, things could be a lot better right now, but he's just doing his job and we should respect him doing his job until we're finished!" I still consider that attitude essentially supportive of the war and invasion, even when doubts and skepticism have paved much more way since 2003.

But outspoken anti-war opinions and personalities still remain generally flushed out to this day, even under a current climate where over half now seem to consistently claim that they disapprove of the way this war is being handled, which I believe that shows the unequal representation or ratio in relation to the way pro-war and anti-war personalities get coverage on the mainstream airwaves, where the ratio is far much wider in favor of those supportive of the war.

Looking at it that way is just one way that affirms my belief and attitude in that this most certainly is not a liberal media environment. It's not even conservative either.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Local Rebel
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44 posted 05-19-2005 11:38 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Hmmm. Could it be the people who would kill their own upon receiving word that soldiers of a foreign land used their holy book as TP?

Newsweek published an inaccurate, poorly substantiated sentence in their story. That's a problem. We have religious zealots who consider killing their countrymen less onerous than desecrating the Qur'an. That's insane.



That's certainly the second third of the pie Jim.  The more egregious error committed by Newsweek and the White House though is not in anticipating what the reaction in the Muslim community would be to this.  To simply categorize it as insane is equally a misunderstanding  -- let's take a look at the mainstream Muslim thought on these occurrences;

quote:

This is worse than Abu Ghraib; Abu Ghraib represents the physical and psychological torture of a few Muslims, Qur'an desecration represents a spiritual, emotional and psychological torture of all Muslims. Even if it turns out that the Newsweek report was false, most people will see it as a cover up and another American attempt to eschew accountability.
-----
Americans, who have a rather cavalier attitude towards things religious, may not understand this, but for Muslims things that are sacred are indeed sacred.
-----
The use of the word "Crusades" by President Bush to describe his war on terror, the continuous revelations about the torture and abuse of Muslim prisoners in Abu Ghraib, Iraq and Guantanamo, Cuba, the reluctance to punish General Boykin for his Islamophobic bigotry are examples of how periodically the US government seeks to remind Muslims of its callous attitudes towards their rights and their religion.
-----
The thing that hurts the most is that while there is verbal recognition of these problems, there is no accountability. In a testimony to the Senate and House Armed Services Committee on May 7, 2004, Secretary Rumsfeld said that he took "full responsibility" for what happened in Abu Ghraib. One would have thought that a resignation letter would follow. Nothing happened.

Dr. Muqtedar Khan  http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1458_0_25_0_C




Where the White House has further blundered is publicly interjecting itself in the maelstrom because to the Muslim community it looks like government censoring the media -- both camps get an F.

The final third we have to remember is the leaky government official.  Was he/she duped, mistaken, or mischievous?  Without getting into the logic process since I don't really have time -- I'll just say it smells a little like trace gas -- that is to say -- it smells like someone in whatever department this source came from was looking for a leak, suspected the source in question, and planted the fake story to see if it showed up in the media.  It's a classic maneuver.

Deer and Noah

Let's look at tomorrow's news today;
http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Red-Cross -backs-claims-of-Koran-abuse-in-US-prison-camp/2005/05/19/1116361678341.html?oneclick=true

It's important to understand what Newsweek has retracted here -- not that the incident in question happened -- but that it is documented in the military report that's about to come out.  This allegation has been out there for a long time before now and ICRC says they have credible information and the Pentagon has confirmed.

It's also important to note what Newsweek ISN'T retracting from the same story about prisoner abuse -- but since the News Media has become the News Story it gets overlooked -- just like in the Rather incident -- fake (but accurate) documents -- the but accurate part is what kept getting overlooked because of the fake document part.

There's nothing like a few inaccurate 'leaks' to draw attention away from the real story.

It's important to distinguish too Deer that a propagandist doesn't lie.  Lying hurts the propagandists cause.  The last thing that's in Newsweek's interest, if it is peddling propaganda, would be to lie -- propaganda is about selective truth telling.

Denise;

quote:

I don't expect we'll read anything in the main stream press laying the blame where it really belongs...with the extremists and with Newsweek. No surprises there.



Where are people getting the information about this story if not from the mainstream press?  Off the compound with that one.

Why don't Isikoff and Newsweek Editors get a free pass?  You know, the, 'they were just working off bad intelligence' kind.
Local Rebel
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45 posted 05-19-2005 11:43 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Karilea,

Nobody would vote for me...
Balladeer
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46 posted 05-20-2005 12:16 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Reb, you mean the "just working off bad intelligence" kind that had the news media, Democratic presidential wanna-be's and every Democrat on the face of the planet screaming for Bush's head while calling him a liar and murderer? Beats me...I guess as far as the media is concerned, that's a reasonable excuse for them alone.

The "planting story" routine was the same thing the Left tried to push with the Rather case. Strikes me funny that half the time they are calling Bush an uneducated, illiterate bozo with no brain and the other half they are basically referring to him as a genius for being able to orchestrate such wonderful baits and deceptions that catch Democrats in his traps with such regularity. Perhaps the liberals caught in these traps should have bumper stickers reading "The Devil Bush Made Me Do It"  

A propogandist doesn't lie? There are many ways ro lie without actually lying. Fake (but accurate) reporting is one way. Hearst didn't lie, either, I suppose....nor does the Enquirer or Star. If you say there's a difference between them and the mainstream press, I have to say the difference is becoming murkier every day.

As far as the rest of the comments concerning Newsweek I found myself humming "Gee, Officer Krumpke" while reading them Newsweek screwed up all by themselves and by their own admission. Saying "We're sorry" doesn't bring back one life that died as a result of it.
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47 posted 05-20-2005 12:23 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

The question Deer -- is why, if we're supposed to excuse sending the nation to war over bad intelligence -- aren't we supposed to excuse a magazine for printing a few words?

Scott McClellan didn't see the irony in his argument 'people have died'.

Bush does have a brain -- Karl Rove.
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48 posted 05-20-2005 12:36 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

ooops...
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49 posted 05-20-2005 12:46 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, according to Noah (and many others) the nation has NOT forgiven Bush for acting on faulty intelligence....neither has the press and neither has Kennedy, Boxer or any Democratic member of Congress.

Besides, as you well know, there is little connection between the two. In one case we are speaking of acting against a hostile nation with reports of nuclear weapons after having suffered 9/11 and the other is about flushing a Koran down the toilet. You really want to compare the two?

Let me ask you this. Let's suppose for argument's sake that the Koran/toilet issue were true? What exactly about it was so important that Newsweek would consider it so important that the news got out to the world?  Was it the "the public has the right to know"  song and dance that has been used since the beginning of time? What made this issue vital to be aired? Certainly Newsweek would have to know that it would be very detrimental to our efforts over there. Certainly they would know that it would make the work of our soldiers and civilians more difficult and more dangerous. Why was it so important to them to get this "incredible news story" out to the world that any consequences would be inconsequential to them? I'm sure you know the answer to that question as well as I and a large percentage of the population do and it has nothing to do with "the public's right to know".....as you well know.
 
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