How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Tens of Thousands of Iraqis Demand U.S.   [ Page: 1  2  3  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Tens of Thousands of Iraqis Demand U.S. Withdrawal

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


0 posted 04-10-2005 01:21 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40509-2005Apr9.html


Proving it's not just lefty's and insurgents that are tired of this illegal occupation. We've brought 'freedom' and 'democracy' to Iraq, now that Iraqi's have been given a voice, when will it be heard?
SEA
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 01-18-2000
Posts 24152
with you


1 posted 04-10-2005 01:36 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

you know, I am very pro military and all that good stuff, but I do think it's time for us to get out and come home.
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


2 posted 04-10-2005 02:15 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I do find these protests very relevant indeed.

I understand on the day of the second anniversary of the war in Iraq, there was a thread that was started here where it was argued, "Hey, dozens of countries worldwide had people going out to protest the war in Iraq, but you know who's not protesting? IRAQ! What's up with that?"

Among those who haven't opposed the war in Iraq, I do recognize that is understandable behavior to have, as I don't believe any of us can truly ever begin to fathom exactly what the citizens of Iraq are feeling each and every moment.

But THIS protest really is symbolic of the urgency of this situation in Iraq and really speaks out once and for all that the real key ingredient in taming all the attacks, all the bloodshed, and speeding up the peoples democracy in Iraq is for this occupation to end once and for all. That's the only "turning point" that will really matter.

This particular protest is especially important because it was held on the second anniversary of the toppling of Saddam Hussein. I've already stressed and can't stress enough how scary and freightening this senseless war in Iraq has been to the world, and it is absolutely freightening to me when now they are putting Bush and Blair in the same triangle as Hussein, their "Triangle of Death". I figured that would happen, and I believe it's only hurting the world by prolonging this unpopular invasion.

All those Iraqis obviously are brave, determined people who really are summoning the will to start over, to begin a new era together in their own hands. Absolutely seeing them all go out risking their lives to vote that January day was extraordinary. They knew it was their one chance, one golden opportunity to have their voices heard. They wanted independence, independence from terror and foreign occupation.

I believe in recent months the people of Iraq have been trying to be as patient as they can, eager to take their new beginning the next step forward. But the fact is, the occupation continues, with no end in sight.

And THAT'S the spiking horse to what encouraged this massive protest. More and more now realize those maintaining the occupation are not moving to their interests, and should nothing change, the next major protest will eclipse this one, and so forth.

I believe we can all agree that the Iraqis have that determination for democracy in both their eyes and their hearts. We should acknowledge their needs, their desires, and I believe this quote from a rally speaker summed it out perfectly:

"We want a stable Iraq and this will only happen through independence. There will be no security and stability unless the occupiers leave. The occupiers must leave my country."

I certainly hope these words can reach the ears of our administration and that they can be moved by this democracy in action.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Midnitesun
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 05-18-2001
Posts 29020
Gaia


3 posted 04-10-2005 01:06 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

quote:
About 1,500 Sunni Muslims did gather in Ramadi, a restive town in western Iraq, to demand U.S. withdrawal. One banner there read, "Leave our land. We want to govern ourselves by ourselves."

"We want them to leave and, by the will of God, they can visit us next year as visitors to our country, but not like soldiers who order and govern," said Saadoun Ali, one of the organizers of the demonstration.


The US government better be listening. It is past time for the military and US government to depart, to let them govern themselves.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


4 posted 04-10-2005 04:35 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

SEA I'm not anti-military, I'm against a [edit] war and the use of soldiers as pawns dying and killing for a lie.

[This message has been edited by Alicat (04-10-2005 07:39 PM).]

SEA
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 01-18-2000
Posts 24152
with you


5 posted 04-10-2005 05:03 PM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

I didn't mean you were(anti) Raph   just saying that I am(pro), and that even though I am, I think it's time we left them to learn how to do this for themselves. that was all
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


6 posted 04-10-2005 10:17 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I would think that the decision of when we leave is up to the newly installed government, that the people elected not to long ago, and not to the mobs in the street.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


7 posted 04-10-2005 10:46 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

I know Susan, just sayin grins

denise, the 'mob' was Shiite, not Sunni. there's no need to villify them.voters protest too, especially inaction and foreign occupation.

and there's a good chance that if the inaction/occupation continues more and more, even those who believed in the elections, will see it for what it is

an 'installed' government
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


8 posted 04-11-2005 12:15 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Denise, those particularly young people out there on the streets certainly weren't "mobs". They were concerned citizens who believe in democracy and only want to be free, period.

We were all so deeply moved that January day when eight million Iraqi citizens came out, risking their lives to vote, and we were moved by their courage, that they truly believed in democracy and nothing could hold their desire back.

I truly hope that everyone could be moved the same way by these weekend protests. I truly hope our administration will do the right thing and really respect and be moved by this whole other display of democracy and courage. And if not, I remain convinced that they just don't know the true nature of democracy.

There are those who could dismiss my response to the war as "senseless" and then praise the elections as though I never believed in them from the beginning, as though I don't deserve any say in how proud and moved I truly was by it all.

But I'll tell you this. If pacifists like myself had our way, and we enacted a non-war alternative in throwing a coup on Saddam and his most loyal adversaries and capturing them while sparing the many  losses in the region that never should have been, and then the elections and building of a new democracy came just as they have, I would still be allowing and giving you a say, no matter how wrong I believed you were. I wouldn't agree, and I wouldn't always listen, but I wouldn't discard you.

What we saw yesterday, I believe, is a great example of what democracy looks like. Tens of thousands out there on the streets, loud but peaceful, calling for independence. I'm praying it just doesn't mean something to me, but everyone somehow.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


9 posted 04-11-2005 12:39 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I would think that the decision of when we leave is up to the newly installed government, that the people elected not to long ago, and not to the mobs in the street.

What absolutely astounds me, Denise, is that you probably don't even see the irony of your own bias. Why does it makes so much difference to you when the government in question is named George Greer and the mob in the street is congregating at a Florida hospice?

Perhaps more importantly, why is that labeling people makes it so much easier to dismiss them?
Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


10 posted 04-11-2005 01:16 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I think bush wants out as soon as he can, but please understand how dilecate this is. He wants to have the military working functionably and well you heard these arguements before. We are coming home soon, but gradually.

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


11 posted 04-11-2005 04:07 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
What we saw yesterday, I believe, is a great example of what democracy looks like. Tens of thousands out there on the streets, loud but peaceful, calling for independence


quote:
Perhaps more importantly, why is that labeling people makes it so much easier to dismiss them?


Well said gentlemen
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


12 posted 04-11-2005 11:04 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I didn't see anyone in Florida burning anyone in effigy. What I saw in Iraq was a mob scene with violent overtures toward the effigies, and burning flags and whooping it up like wild-eyed madmen for the cameras.

What I saw in Florida was prayer vigils and people holding signs quietly and peacefully praying and crying for a grain of sanity and mercy and for someone to help stop the court ordered murder of a disabled person. And little kids being handcuffed for symbolically attempting to do the moral thing, since they couldn't actually do it.

I'm not dismissing anybody, or vilifying anybody. They have a newly installed government to take their grievances to, one that well represents all the different factions. And they've been installed officially now for what, about a week or two? Why don't they give that a shot first before resorting to the streets in a display of rebellion. Have they proven that the new government is just a puppet and not legitimate? I think it at least deserves a test of its legitimacy. Put it to the test and work through the system before dismissing it out of hand and heading to the streets. Further down the line if they find no satisfaction in working through the system, then there may be a place for that, sure, but right out of the starting gate, before exercising other options? It just seems a bit premature to me.

And unlike Greer, through his actions and inactions over the past five years, they haven't yet proven to be illegimate and corrupt. They may prove to be, and then again they may prove not to be. Only time will tell.




Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


13 posted 04-11-2005 11:18 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Something I could never figure out is how I am always the fair and unbiased one, and those who hold opposing views are the always the biased ones and fail to see the irony of their position.  
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


14 posted 04-12-2005 12:15 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I didn't see anyone in Florida burning anyone in effigy.

Denise, that's only because your perspective doesn't recognize the similarity between setting fire to an effigy and verbally assassinating someone's character. Neither expression of disagreement is physically violent, but they nonetheless share an equal disdain for peace. And both, of course, reflect an absolute and utter conviction they are right.

quote:
Something I could never figure out is how I am always the fair and unbiased one, and those who hold opposing views are the always the biased ones and fail to see the irony of their position.

As you well know, Tim, everyone is biased. But, of course, we're not all biased about the same things.

I think there's a good reason why surgeons don't operate on their own children, and perhaps why judges don't sit at the bench when the victim was someone they loved. The minute we start caring about something is the moment we stop being fair. The more we care, the more our vision becomes blurred by what we WANT to see, too often obscuring what we SHOULD see. We are creatures forever ruled by emotion.

I would never fault someone for being biased, for that would be equivalent to faulting them for caring. If they are a surgeon, however, I will always caution them not to operate, if they are a judge, I will always beg them to recluse themselves, and if they are a writer, a seeker and purveyor of the truth, I will always prod them to look a little more deeply. That, perhaps, is MY bias.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


15 posted 04-12-2005 12:22 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

A bias that has served us well I hope Ron.  
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


16 posted 04-12-2005 02:39 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I believe it's for the people of Iraq to decide if they want to wait and see once the government and constitution is fully implemented or if they want to take to the streets now, Denise.

Again, I certainly can't speak for the people of Iraq, none of us can. But one thing is clear. THAT was democracy in action over the weekend, and I am troubled by anyone who would deny that.

I haven't dissed on any of those Schiavo protests, Denise. In fact, I'm so very happy they happened and they were represented in our media.

Besides that, effigy burning has always been a symbolic form of protest. Burning an effigy isn't in my taste personally and I wouldn't ever do it as I've seen it always leads to conclusions that that individual wishes that person dead and I don't believe that is the effective way to dissent as I'm sure you agree, but there have always been those "red curry protest" types and at least they didn't use the effigys for starting fires or riots. Those protests were quite peaceful and quite orderly might I add.

I personally am a bit saddened you'd dismiss them all as "mobs". A diversity of voices and protesters were represented there just as every protest virtually is. And I'm so glad they could all find common ground together, regardless of their opinions or values, to call for freedom and independence.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


17 posted 04-12-2005 04:49 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

what about verbal effigy's; the villification of Schiavo's husband,judges, officers, doctor's and everyone else supporters could defame?
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


18 posted 04-12-2005 07:03 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I believe I do see what you're meaning here, Raphael. I don't really want to lean too far that way now in that this thread could lean well off topic, but that is a valuable point that could make a great discussion. Words indeed burn as well.

Again, I never personally would succumb to effigy burning as a practice of protest because I see no use value or positive benefit or aspect to it, but I do also feel sometimes people take that practice just a bit too seriously, in jumping to conclusions that that person making that gesture must want that real person depicted in the effigy as dead or killed or whatever.

It somehow reminds me of what Pedro said in "Napoleon Dynamite":

"I don't understand. I mean...they say here you're not allowed to smash piniatas that look like real people...but in Mexico we do it all the time!"

I personally would rather choose to whack a piniata shaped like a strawberry or a sun or something of that sort, but just because someone may whack the head off of a piniata shaped as a person doesn't automatically mean they'd want someone who looks like that decapitated.

In the end, I do believe effigy-burning is actually a pretty useless and stupid practice personally, but I also believe so many just rush to conclusions about behavior like that and then generalize that sense and that is also unhealthy.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


19 posted 04-12-2005 09:15 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

My use of the word mob was not meant to be derogatory. That's just what I happen to call a large rowdy crowd. That's the word that pops into my mind.

My only point was that, in my opinion, they should give the newly installed government a chance before taking it to the streets.

Defamation, Raph? Please investigate the facts. They are readily available for anyone who wishes to see them. Read the various depositions of the husband. Read his trial testimonies. There is perjury everywhere. Check out how many violations of Florida law that the judge committed in order to be able to arrive at his various illegal rulings, including failing to recuse himself from the case, five times. Follow the money trail of this cast of characters, particulary the attorney, who received the bulk of the condemned's trust fund (authorized by his friend, the judge) in the husband's effort to have her put to death. Check out the stonewalling of every requested investigation into abuse and neglect by every law enforcement agency, including the Attorney General's office, going back years.

Revealing the corruption, collusion and law breaking of those in authority, attempting to kill a helpless disabled person is not defamation or character assassination. And perhaps if more people would focus their energies to holding them accountable for the travesty of justice that they have perpetrated under the guise of 'law', the State ordered killing of a non-criminal by starvation and dehydration for no other reason than that she was disabled, someone who was not even dying, and be as concerned about that outrage to the sensibilities as they seem to be about the 'reputations' of those perpetrators, or show even half the concern for the victim in all of this as they show toward her killers, then perhaps justice might eventually prevail.

Most people of the liberal persuasion are against capital punishment, and are against the State ordered executions of criminals, and would most assuredly be up-in-arms if any State tried to starve and dehydrate them to death. But when the same thing happened to an innocent disabled person, they were, for the most part, silent. Why? How can starving and dehydrating a criminal be cruel and unusual but when it is done to a disabled person it is not? I haven't gotten an answer to that yet, not even one that pretends to be plausible.

Anyone here care to take a stab at it?

And to get back on topic, I don't think anyone would be happier about the troops coming home than the troops. And I hope they do come home soon, and stay home.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


20 posted 04-12-2005 11:30 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

the minute you investigate the plethora of evidence against the administration with regards to this unlawful war, the continued illegal occupation of iraq, and the farce of an election, all of which are part of why the iraqiis are frustrated and taking to the streets.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


21 posted 04-12-2005 11:34 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Please investigate the facts. They are readily available for anyone who wishes to see them.

No, Denise, what is readily available is your interpretation of the facts. If I had a law degree, I might be more prepared to either agree or disagree with your conclusions. If I had a law degree AND was privy to the legal briefs filed by both concerned parties, I might be even more inclined to agree or disagree. As it is, I don't have the facts, nor the training to judge them. I have opinions, to be sure, but I am very much lacking in facts.

I have no doubt you're convinced you're right, Denise. Just as the people you characterize as a mob lacking in patience are probably convinced they are right. The irony is that no matter who is right or who is wrong, you and they are much more alike than you seem willing to recognize.
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


22 posted 04-13-2005 01:34 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Awwwww, that's OK, Denise! I understand what you mean. I define the word mob differently than you do but I understand what you mean. I still see it as a very relevant and symbolic protest, but thanks for the word!

And I agree with you, aside from the politics, on the Schiavo tragedy. I didn't agree with how the matter got to Congress, but silence is deafening as well. I wish awareness could have blossomed at a more grassroots platform for the case, and I absolutely believe poor Terri was unfortunately starved to death and, without villifying one another, we need to bi-laterally work and see to it this sort of tragedy doesn't repeat itself to those like Terri in Florida, four Oregonians like her who are currently facing similar struggles here, and every other whichwhere.

I just didn't agree with that last minute political crossfire is all. You have the right to be upset with the Democrats and most of the "liberal persuasion" if you want, but let's not forget either that opinion polls also indicated about half of self-described conservatives in the polls I've seen also believed in their opinion it was the right thing to do to have her feeding tube removed. Both political sides I believe failed her, simply because she became the victim in a political feud. I just don't believe that's the way to resolve such a conflict and save a life. In fact, when you're picking sides and pulling a ones arms and legs, all it does is tear that case and the individual apart.

Anyway, I absolutely agree with your sentiment here. ANY starvation and dehydration is cruel and immoral to me, and I hope we can mature and learn from this devastating experience.

And yes, Denise, absolutely about the troops eager to want to return home to their loved ones and families. I pray for that every day, from the bottom of my heart. I want them to be free with their loved ones and the lives they regularly lead here in America just as much as I desire for the Iraqis to celebrate their independence and look for a fresh start.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Midnitesun
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 05-18-2001
Posts 29020
Gaia


23 posted 04-13-2005 10:44 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

"The irony is that no matter who is right or who is wrong, you and they are much more alike than you seem willing to recognize."
This should be in CAPS, Ron.

Tim? ROTFL at your comment. Indeed. Doesn't everyone think s(he) is the sane/unbiased one?

Denise, re: mobs
Then aren't all large crowds mobs? (Did you observe the mob scene outside the Vatican?)
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


24 posted 04-13-2005 01:52 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

not too hard to see two sides to an issue, it is just hard to accept the fact there is any validity to the other side.  

I believe I recall someone stating categorically that if information came from a certain web site, it was not even worth considering.  Even the most biased and ignorant person is occasionally able to make a valid point, heck fire, I even sneak one in once and a great while.  

Comparing the protesters in Florida to those bused in by a certain cleric to protest in Iraq seems a bit of a stretch to me, other than the fact they were protesters, but I guess it is where your biases lay...  Can't say I hold the same view of Denise as far as judges, but then I do not see the attitude from the other side being any less hypocrtical or ironic...

while it may be unfortunate to some that the U.S. toppled Saddam, I do not recall many complaining about the box the U.S. was maintaining to keep those who were protesting from being tortured and slaughtered, and the fact if they would have even hinted at protesting a few years ago they literally would have had their ears chopped off if they were extremely lucky.

I think it is great they are protesting and have the opportunity to do so...  If the U.S. were to leave right now one has to wonder how long they would be protesting...

As a side note, saw on one of the big three that we are real concerned with saving a rabbit's life and on one of the unbiased cable outlets that superhuman efforts are being made to keep some dolphins alive with the use of feeding tubes...  once again, I guess it is a question of your biases...
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Tens of Thousands of Iraqis Demand U.S.   [ Page: 1  2  3  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors