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Alicat
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0 posted 2005-04-01 08:04 PM


Yep, that one.  He pled guilty to shredding 3 documents stolen from the National Archives.  All three were identical, and dealt with the Administration's preperation for the 2000 Millenial celebration and possible terrorist activity.  He'll get a light slap on the wrist for helping the investigation into the reason for the theft and destruction of this particular document.  Seeing how this happened during our last Presidential election, prior to the 9/11 final release, some suspicions come to mind, though I really doubt this investigation will go anywhere.  Too many high placed people would be implicated, so I'm certain Mr. Berger will lead the investigators on a wild goose chase.  If he doesn't suddenly wind up dead in a park with a bullet hole on the dominant side, with the gun in the off-hand, ala Vince Foster.

[This message has been edited by Alicat (04-01-2005 08:52 PM).]

© Copyright 2005 Alastair Adamson - All Rights Reserved
Local Rebel
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1 posted 2005-04-01 11:28 PM


So then you subscribe to the Mena, Arkansas airport Bush/Clinton - CIA/Contra/Ollie North drug smuggling conpiracy theory?
Alicat
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2 posted 2005-04-01 11:34 PM


Though I have some understanding what happened in that instance, this one isn't about them, but about Mr. Berger's crimes and why he committed them.  He still had the necessary security clearance to access those files in the National Archives due to being the National Security Advisor under President Clinton.  Why he would want to steal and destroy memos and documents regarding security measures during the 2000 Millenial celebration is beyond me, but the timing is suspect.

As for Foster, I have never believed he committed suicide.  The methodology was odd, not to mention the police being notified only after his office had been thoroughly ransacked.  Not so much conspiracies, but more along the lines of 'Hmmmm....'.

Berger will not serve jail time.  Instead, he'll be fined about 10-40k, and have his security clearance removed for 3 years as part of a plea arrangement, since destruction of federal archive material is punishable by a fine of 100k and/or 1 year in federal prison for each offense, and Mr. Berger had at least 3.

Local Rebel
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3 posted 2005-04-01 11:38 PM


quote:

Seeing how this happened during our last Presidential election, prior to the 9/11 final release, some suspicions come to mind, though I really doubt this investigation will go anywhere.  Too many high placed people would be implicated



Bush is clearly in charge of the investigation.  Why would you expect the investigation to go nowhere in fear of high placed people being implicated unless you agree with the assertions that Clinton/Bush41 where in cahoots with the Contras and CIA, and now Bush 43 is still protecting Clintonistas?

Alicat
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4 posted 2005-04-01 11:49 PM


No, Bush is clearly not in charge of this investigation.  Though he is the President, he is not the head of the FBI.  I really have doubts that one day Mr. Berger woke up and decided he was going to go down to the National Archives and steal documents and memos to cut up with scissors on a complete lark, disconnected from any outside source, the lone gunman.  What he did wasn't an accident, wasn't a mistake, wasn't an oopsie.  It was a calculated action, which just so happened to also be destruction of government property, which falls under the jurisdiction of the FBI.  And that notwithstanding the lies he told to the staff of the National Archives when he was caught with documents in his socks.  'Honest mistake' he told them.  If that was indeed true, then it is a mystery how those documents crawled below his trouser hem, over and into his socks sans any human intervention.
Local Rebel
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5 posted 2005-04-01 11:53 PM


And the FBI reports to?   the AG... who reports to?  The President.

I'm not really sure exactly what argument you're making.  That Clinton is still in control of the FBI?


Denise
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6 posted 2005-04-01 11:58 PM


I think his point is that something untoward was going on and Clinton was behind it.
Local Rebel
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7 posted 2005-04-02 12:04 PM


That part I get.  Whether Berger was acting at the behest of Clinton or to save his own ass is an unknown.

What I'm trying to figure out is what or who Cat believes to be impeding the investigation.  I don't disagree that it has been impeded.  It dropped off the radar screen as soon as it showed up -- only to resurface now to tell us that former Security Adviser Berger is getting his wrist slapped for doing a no-no.  The question is why?  Who would the Bush admin be trying to protect?

Denise
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8 posted 2005-04-02 12:43 PM


I don't know and I don't care. They all protect each other. Pick one.
Balladeer
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9 posted 2005-04-02 01:19 AM


What I find to be so entertaining in a way with regards to this case is the left's reaction to it. We have seen countless times in threads here about the sneakiness of Bush, his dirty tricks, his dishonesty and a myriad of other insinuations and accusations directed at him and his cronies - which even may or may not have validity - and yet, when this Berger situation came up, those same critical voices against the Bush regime suddenly developed laryngitis. A thread came up when Berger was caught and all we got was a "no big deal" or "so what" from the anti-Bush group. I think there is little doubt that, if this had happened with a conservative being caught stealing documents, stuffing them down his clothes, shredding them, etc, this forum would have been flooded with outrage with those same voices calling for heads to roll. This particular case is a prime example of how, not only here but also in Congress and the liberal press along with liberal groups everywhere, if something is done by the Bush entourage, it's evil but if done by the Democrats, it's a "no big deal". Attempts to change the subject are to be expected. Berger's acts were illegal and certainly part of some type of action to do with the election and yet liberals can not come out and acknowledge it and, by not doing so, show that their views are based on prejudices and not any type of fairness  or reason at all.

Over the course of the last campaign, Bush had quite a few opportunities to nail Kerry to the wall, along with other leading Democrats, and he passed on all of them - even to the point that his own party was a little exasperated with him. He could have destroyed Kerry on his Viet Nam record (even more than Kerry destroyed himself) and yet he preferred to act with a certain amount of restraint and class. I think that, in this case, Bush feels that no purpose would be served by crushing Berger like the roach he is and Bush is willing to let the slap on the wrist suffice and let's move on..

My opinion, anyway...

Brad
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10 posted 2005-04-02 01:59 AM


Looking at the list of people having their character being destroyed on this board, I was wondering who would be next.

I guess this one.

So how much dirt and inuendo are we going to supply this week?


Local Rebel
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11 posted 2005-04-02 06:22 AM


So deer?  The administration hates Martha Stewart but loves roaches?  

What thread is it of which you speak where 'liberals' said the Berger case was no big deal?

Denise
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12 posted 2005-04-02 07:28 AM


Thank you, Michael.

Just as with the document that came out during the campaign period ON DEMOCRATIC LETTERHEAD....it was NO BIG DEAL and the only issue was WHO WAS BEHIND ITS BEING LEAKED?????? The dirty tricks outlined in the memo were not important...but what was? Who was the louse who leaked it???? No importance was given to the blatant politicizing.

But most recently with the supposed Republican 'talking points' regarding Terri Schiavo, purportedly attempting to politicize the situation, it was not important that it was on plain paper, not initialed or signed, full of typos and misspellings, etc., it was treated as iron-clad proof of Republican dirty tricks and the question of who leaked it was of no importance.

I have come to the conclusion that liberals are from another planet, and I'm being kind.

Denise
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13 posted 2005-04-02 07:36 AM


Brad,

The people you are referring to have destroyed their own characters.

If we aren't supposed to bring reprehensible behavior to light, maybe an amendment should be passed making it illegal to speak the truth, or, maybe more to the point, since most liberals don't believe that 'truth' exists, maybe we should just forbid any disagreement with the emotings of the liberals.

Ron
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14 posted 2005-04-02 10:08 AM


Truth exists, Denise. It's just that people who takes sides -- any sides -- rarely bother to look for it. They prefer justifications to truth, conspiracies to investigations, and divisiveness to cooperation.

Blind loyalty, whether to a party or an ideology, is easier than thinking. And it's obviously a lot more common.

Denise
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15 posted 2005-04-02 12:53 PM


So true, so true, Ron.
Alicat
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16 posted 2005-04-02 04:05 PM


Been working on the SO's system today, so I'll get to your questions now, LR.  See, I neither mentioned nor implicated anyone outside of Mr. Berger.  Not President Clinton, not President Bush Sr/Jr, not the Republicans, not the Democrats, not the Left/Right/Progressives/Liberals/Independants; noone but Mr. Berger.  And I have the gut feeling that he will be the one impeding this FBI investigation.  His original story was that it was an accident.  He later pled guilty to the crimes, but never said why he did it, or whom, if anyone, set him up to do it, or if there was any exchange of cash/favors/protection during his press conference.  All he basically said was that he had pled guilty, was helping the FBI, and that he had made a mistake in stealing and destroying security papers and memos from the National Archives.  I'll admit that I would be very surprised if anyone else was arrested or even mentioned during the course of this investigation.
Balladeer
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17 posted 2005-04-02 05:17 PM


No, reb, the admin doesn't love roaches...they just feel sorry for the little fellers Martha they don't feel sorry for at all but, then, she's a different kind of vermin
Brad
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18 posted 2005-04-02 05:35 PM


quote:
The people you are referring to have destroyed their own characters.


And when it happens to you, I'll still be a character reference. Don't worry, I don't expect the same from you. You think I'm from another planet.

quote:
If we aren't supposed to bring reprehensible behavior to light,


And you've never done anything wrong?

quote:
maybe an amendment should be passed making it illegal to speak the truth,


Or maybe we should use our brains a bit more and attempt, I don't know, DUE PROCESS.

Do you know how many times I've heard, "I'm sure it's true" and do you know how many times I think, "So what?" Certainty does not making something true anymore than wishing something weren't true or not true.

quote:
maybe more to the point, since most liberals don't believe that 'truth' exists, maybe we should just forbid any disagreement with the emotings of the liberals.


You really don't know what a liberal is, do you?  I'm a liberal and I've offered the same definition of truth several times over the years. I've tried to explain the problems with truth and being certain of truth again and again.

I can't remember who said this but respect the person searching for truth, beware the person who is sure they know it.


Balladeer
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19 posted 2005-04-02 05:42 PM


Well, Brad, if you have "offered the same definition of truth several times over the years", that sounds like you're sure you know it.
Local Rebel
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20 posted 2005-04-02 06:11 PM


So then, Cat, you think Sandy Berger killed Vince Foster?
Denise
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21 posted 2005-04-02 07:47 PM


Brad, please, I'd prefer that you didn't bring up DUE PROCESS right now so soon after our judicial branch has just sanctioned and carried out the cruel protracted killing of a disabled woman, a fellow American citizen, who was not terminally ill, who did not even meet the state of Florida's own definition of PVS, for whom there was only the hearsay evidence of her estranged husband and two of his relatives as to her wishes to die if she ever became dependent, (and yet the judge declared it a finding of fact, despite sworn testimony and sworn affidavits to the contrary by her family and friends, just one of many improper findings and other improprieties, such as his refusal 5 times to recuse himself when requested to by the family, in violation of Florida statutes) because they didn't believe that she deserved DUE PROCESS and were incensed that Congress, by the authority of the 14th Amendment, because of so many blatant irregularities in this case, asked them to investigate the facts anew and to determine whether or not the findings of fact had been properly arrived at before the death ORDER was carried out, the same courtesy given to a common criminal in this country. Her DUE PROCESS took a back seat to the arrogant egomaniacs' desire to exalt their authority against Congress. What about her DUE PROCESS, Brad?

Where are the voices of the liberal world about this?

Where are the voices of the idiots in Hollywood who hold fundraisers for a cop killer (Abuh Jamal) decrying the violation of his rights because he wants another appeal?

Where are the voices of those who had spasms over the rights of prisoners in Abu Ghraib and Guantonomo Bay?

Where are the voices of those screaming about cruel and unusual punishment concerning criminals?

Where are the voices of the feminist groups when a state allows an estranged husband life and death rights over his disabled wife?

Where are the voices of the folks who want to give us all free health care because they recognize the value and worth of the poor, the sick and the disabled?

Where are all the voices of those who advocated for embryonic stem cell research in an effort to help their favorite disabled person, Christopher Reeves?

NOTHING BUT SILENCE.

Except from the ACLU, who had been footing most of the legal bills in the effort to have Terri starved to death.

I'm sorry Brad, these people are not only from another planet but from another galaxy.

As for DUE PROCESS for the cast of characters involved in this case, I would think investigating them and bringing their behaviors to light would have to come BEFORE their receiving their DUE PROCESS.

And I'll ask you a question. If in the unforseen event that you found yourself with a brain injury and couldn't effectively communicate your wishes, and despite being so disabled, to your amazement you also find that you still have a strong desire to live and are bound and determined to fight to get better instead of being starved and dehydrated to death, despite what you may have previously thought that you would want under those circumstances, but you find now that you just can't speak to let anyone know about your wishes, even as you hear the doctor discussing your vegetative state, would you rather have me speaking to the doctor on your behalf or, oh, I don't know, let's say Nancy Pelosi?

Sorry for the sidetrack, Ali....back to Berger.


Brad
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22 posted 2005-04-02 08:23 PM


I'll save most of my response (If I can find the time and motivation) for another thread, but in answer to your question concerning whether to pull the plug on myself, the answer is astonishingly easy.

I don't want congress, Nancy Pelosi, you, my parents or anybody outside my family to make that decision.

The only person who knows what's best for me and more importantly what's best for my family is my wife.

Regardless of what happens in the future, I know that her concerns are and always will be the same as mine.

If pushed, I may not be able to convince any of you of this, but that's why it should stay in the immediate family.

  

Brad
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23 posted 2005-04-02 08:26 PM


oh, and one more thing, what's better way of making decisions than Due Process?

Is it perfect?

Of course not.

But it's certainly better than anything else I can think of.

Denise
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24 posted 2005-04-02 09:41 PM


DUE PROCESS is not DUE PROCESS if it is not afforded, Brad. She did not receive it. That's my point. She had a guardian ad litem who was fired by the judge because he recommended not pulling the feeding tube. The next guardian ad litem was appointed by the judge, a person who openly questioned the Constitutionality of Terri's Law on a news program. And for all successive hearings the judge appointed himself as her guardian ad litem.

And this was not a typical case that should have remained 'in the family'. The obvious and blatant corruption of that Florida court was the reason for the family petitioning Congress, and for Congress agreeing to try to get legislation passed to allow them a de novo hearing in the Federal Courts. They would not have even considered doing such a thing if there were not some pretty serious problems evident with the actions of the state court.

If you were in Terri's situation, with a spouse who had 'moved on', I'm sure you would feel differently. And your parents are your immediate family, and the next in line, in most states, in the absence of a spouse, or a spouse who no longer qualifies due to a conflict of interest as obvious as having a new partner.

Denise
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25 posted 2005-04-02 09:47 PM


Sorry again, Ali.

I'm gone.

Mistletoe Angel
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26 posted 2005-04-02 10:30 PM




Just so you know, I would have responded to this thread earlier, but I'm not excited to join in here now just because I don't like at all the direction this thread has gone. It's just so ugly-sounding right now, so much bitterness.

What can I say? I'm a spring chicken to the dusty world of politics. In two years I have already formed strong opinions and understandings of Bush and the war in Iraq, and believe in what I believe very strongly because I have taken the time to get out there in the community and see myself dissent washed out and it's as though only the trigger of the gun is investigated in every major story, when the barrel is just as important of the anatomy of the story.

I'm not a fan of Bush and I wasn't a fan of Clinton either, simple as that. And as a liberal, I wouldn't be against penalization of those like Berger who truly didn't do their job or attempted to cover up or destroy part of the story.

But I've got to tell you, I'm utterly saddened with rhetoric being used here like "liberals must be from a whole other galaxy". What is that supposed to mean? We should be focusing on the issue itself rather than resorting to all this pundit/ talking heads cycle.

Then poor Terri Schiavo and Christopher Reeve gets planted into these discussion again, which they have NOTHING to do with this topic whatsoever.

Now, I, myself, can agree that I haven't fully developed an I-Thou personality in its fullest yet and I too resort to I-It talk in exposing Bush and such. Lord knows I'm still learning, and I'm still trying to. But what I will add is that I would NEVER suddenly pull up the name of Tom DeLay or John Bolton or whatever in a thread such as this in where they have no deep connection whatsoever and then morph that sort of discussion into a conservatives-must-be-from-Zeta Reculi crossfire.

And that's the last thing I'd wish for here, for I believe from the beginning of America's history so-called liberals and conservatives alike have built and influenced this nation both together and apart. The background in which I was raised within was truly a melting pot. I consider myself a strongly liberal independent, but I have always warmed up to the social conservative values of my grandparents as well. And together I'm pleased to say the ground of values I was raised on make up a great, colorful bouquet.

*

*

Anyway, I feel it essential to talk in these sorts of circles when this sort of crossfire happens and I really am hoping to see the discussion here turn back toward the issue itself respectedly.

I'm only faintly familiar with Sandy Berger so I would truly like a non-slanted history or understanding of this individual so I can make a future fair assessment.

I will say already that I believe any censorship, tearing or sweeping under the rug of any valuable documents is wrong and does injustice not just for those in power but for the whole community in general. And seeing that Berger pleaded guilty for those three documents, I believe justice must be made and Berger and others who may have been involved must be penalized.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Juju
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27 posted 2005-04-03 03:21 AM


All I have to say as an conservative is, I like to conserve things like life and legal documents... But unfortunitly some poeple don't agree, because they are corrupt.

I wouldn't want to be hooked up on a breathing machine, brain dead... But I wouldn't want to starve to death like an old dog.

Back on subject... I blame the lack of coverage on... poeple are use to corruption from the clinton administration.  Bush after He was elected in 2000, pardoned clinton from all crimes, so clinton wont be punished. so what can they do?  

I hear Hillery is running after bush. I think I like Kerry more... I knew when he was up to something and I knew when he was lieing.


Juju
  

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Local Rebel
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28 posted 2005-04-03 12:17 PM


Okay I'll stop kidding the Cat (for now).

What Sandy Berger (Clinton's National Security Advisor) took from the National Archives were COPIES of the After Action Report that were prepared in early 2000 detailing the response of the Clinton admin to the terrorist threats posed during the Millenium Celebrations.  These were taken as Mr. Berger was sifting through thousands of documents to determine relevance for being made available to the 9/11 Commission for review.  

The 'stuffing in his pants and jacket pocket' charge does not relate to the actual document copies since they are bound reports of 30-50 pages each.  Rather, what he stuffed in his pants were his notes that he took while making the reviews (which is still a no-no).

It isn't accurate for the left to say 'no-harm no-foul they were just copies' because these were controlled copies -- as is the case with any classified document.  These 'copies' were distributed and routed through the Clinton White House (much in the way a memo would be circulated for review through a corporation).  As anyone who has ever participated in routed documents knows there are unique items that get handwritten on each one that might show who read each one and personal thoughts and reactions to what was being read -- even notes to the next person down the distribution chain.

What we know is controversial about the content of the After Action Report itself is that initially it was told to the commission that the thwarting of the Millenium plot was a model of how an administration should be handling terrorism.  Richard Clarke, however, said that what happened in the Millenium incident was exactly how NOT to go about handling terror and that the discovery of the Millenium plot was completely serendipitous.  So, this report would certainly have reflected Clarke's concerns about exactly that.  Along with his ongoing concerns about terrorism and detailed intelligence and recommended future actions.

The Bush administration released the information that Berger was under investigation exactly at the time the 9/11 Commission report was being released.  So, there is your election year angle Cat.  It was a diversion from the damaging information to the current administration.

Since Mr. Berger has plead guilty and received his sentence, there is little more to be investigated.  

What we have open for speculation is what notes might have been scribbled on those three copies that Berger destroyed -- and from the way this particular case was handled we can assume that it made the Clinton and Bush admins look bad in being non-responsive to Clarke's repeated warnings.  

As to what actual harm this incident has done.. apparently it is limited to the perpetrator, since there is no real loss of intelligence to the nation.  His political career is over.  All he can really look forward to now is becoming a Fox News whore along with Pat Cadell and Dick Morris.

Midnitesun
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29 posted 2005-04-03 12:24 PM


thank you, Reb
Juju
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30 posted 2005-04-03 01:53 PM


Mistletoe Angle...  The commit was probably meant in the context simmiliar to men are from mars and wemon from venus.


Alicat
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31 posted 2005-04-04 07:00 PM


It is rather humorous to me, albiet darkly, that this deals with neither Clinton's or Bush's administrations.  I guess many forgot that Berger, after being the National Security Advisor to President Clinton, was one of John Kerry's senior advisors, offered by the Clinton camp, and was only let go after getting caught stealing security documents from the National Archives.  And Berger wasn't an ignoramasus and fumble fingered stooge.  He was THE National Security Advisor, had very high security clearances, and knew exactly what he was looking for.

Mind ya, not casting new aspirtions on Kerry...Lord knows he has enough of his own invention.  Just another 'hmmmmm' moment.

Local Rebel
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32 posted 2005-04-04 07:15 PM


Gee I see your point Cat.  I mean. Really. Clarke was only the Counter-Terrorism Czar under Clinton and then under Bush (until Condy put him in a back office).  There's absolutely no tie in the 9/11 commission report to either administration either.  Clarke only authored the after-action report copies Berger destroyed.  

Yep.  There's hardly a connection at all.

Of course.  Berger should have resigned from politics BEFORE he ever got in trouble.  That would make sense.


Juju
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33 posted 2005-04-05 12:47 PM


But Rebel corrupt poeple don't think things are wrong unless they get caught.  HE thought he wouldn't get in trouble. It makes me laugh.  I am sorry. Wierd.

Juju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Brad
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34 posted 2005-04-05 04:52 AM


LR,

I think you are missing the point. They don't need a point to start a witch hunt.This is simply the next name on the list.

Hmmmmm, who will be next?

Alicat
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35 posted 2005-04-05 09:38 AM


I just can't help but wonder how loud the hue and cry would have been had the political parties been switched, with the felon being the former NSA from Reagan or Bush, SR.  Given the climate of mass media, I've no doubt there would have been a bit more interest in this incident, especially during an election year.
Not A Poet
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36 posted 2005-04-05 10:03 AM


"Witch hunt" Come on Brad, wake up and act realistic. The man accidentally stuffed classified documents down his pants in a half-assed effort to swing a presidential election to his side. If you can call that a witch hunt then those are the kinds of witches that need to be hunted.

Balladeer
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37 posted 2005-04-05 12:42 PM


LOL! If that's the best you've got, Brad, you're slipping...
Local Rebel
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38 posted 2005-04-05 06:18 PM


Given the demands of the 24 hour news cycle we have today Cat I'm sure the media attention would be about the same depending upon what else is happening in the world.  It's not every week that John Paul II dies.

Regarding the political rancor -- I'm sure it would be proportional to the situation if the Democrats were in power and their House Majority leader was beleagered with ethics charges (oh yeah -- we've been there and done that).  

Regarding election year politics -- what you need to understand is that there is always election-year politics -- and this is 2006 election year politics -- and, the Republicans are shaking in their shoes because their own data shows they are in danger of losing 25 seats in the house (tipping control back to the Dems) amid the fall in popularity of their 2nd term Pres(and house seats are usually lost to the challenging party during a 2nd term Presidential mid-term Congressional election.)

What we need to learn to do is to separate the politics of 'scandal' from advancement of the issues.  If the reason we shouldn't vote for a political party is because there are 'crooks' in it -- then we can't vote for anyone.

When it comes to 'scandal' politics we need to learn to separate human failings (which are always going to occur where power is concerned) from sociopathic behavior.  

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