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Passions in Poetry

Sandy Berger

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Alicat
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0 posted 04-01-2005 08:04 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Yep, that one.  He pled guilty to shredding 3 documents stolen from the National Archives.  All three were identical, and dealt with the Administration's preperation for the 2000 Millenial celebration and possible terrorist activity.  He'll get a light slap on the wrist for helping the investigation into the reason for the theft and destruction of this particular document.  Seeing how this happened during our last Presidential election, prior to the 9/11 final release, some suspicions come to mind, though I really doubt this investigation will go anywhere.  Too many high placed people would be implicated, so I'm certain Mr. Berger will lead the investigators on a wild goose chase.  If he doesn't suddenly wind up dead in a park with a bullet hole on the dominant side, with the gun in the off-hand, ala Vince Foster.

[This message has been edited by Alicat (04-01-2005 08:52 PM).]

Local Rebel
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1 posted 04-01-2005 11:28 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

So then you subscribe to the Mena, Arkansas airport Bush/Clinton - CIA/Contra/Ollie North drug smuggling conpiracy theory?
Alicat
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2 posted 04-01-2005 11:34 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Though I have some understanding what happened in that instance, this one isn't about them, but about Mr. Berger's crimes and why he committed them.  He still had the necessary security clearance to access those files in the National Archives due to being the National Security Advisor under President Clinton.  Why he would want to steal and destroy memos and documents regarding security measures during the 2000 Millenial celebration is beyond me, but the timing is suspect.

As for Foster, I have never believed he committed suicide.  The methodology was odd, not to mention the police being notified only after his office had been thoroughly ransacked.  Not so much conspiracies, but more along the lines of 'Hmmmm....'.

Berger will not serve jail time.  Instead, he'll be fined about 10-40k, and have his security clearance removed for 3 years as part of a plea arrangement, since destruction of federal archive material is punishable by a fine of 100k and/or 1 year in federal prison for each offense, and Mr. Berger had at least 3.
Local Rebel
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3 posted 04-01-2005 11:38 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Seeing how this happened during our last Presidential election, prior to the 9/11 final release, some suspicions come to mind, though I really doubt this investigation will go anywhere.  Too many high placed people would be implicated



Bush is clearly in charge of the investigation.  Why would you expect the investigation to go nowhere in fear of high placed people being implicated unless you agree with the assertions that Clinton/Bush41 where in cahoots with the Contras and CIA, and now Bush 43 is still protecting Clintonistas?
Alicat
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4 posted 04-01-2005 11:49 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

No, Bush is clearly not in charge of this investigation.  Though he is the President, he is not the head of the FBI.  I really have doubts that one day Mr. Berger woke up and decided he was going to go down to the National Archives and steal documents and memos to cut up with scissors on a complete lark, disconnected from any outside source, the lone gunman.  What he did wasn't an accident, wasn't a mistake, wasn't an oopsie.  It was a calculated action, which just so happened to also be destruction of government property, which falls under the jurisdiction of the FBI.  And that notwithstanding the lies he told to the staff of the National Archives when he was caught with documents in his socks.  'Honest mistake' he told them.  If that was indeed true, then it is a mystery how those documents crawled below his trouser hem, over and into his socks sans any human intervention.
Local Rebel
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5 posted 04-01-2005 11:53 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

And the FBI reports to?   the AG... who reports to?  The President.

I'm not really sure exactly what argument you're making.  That Clinton is still in control of the FBI?

Denise
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6 posted 04-01-2005 11:58 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think his point is that something untoward was going on and Clinton was behind it.
Local Rebel
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7 posted 04-02-2005 12:04 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

That part I get.  Whether Berger was acting at the behest of Clinton or to save his own ass is an unknown.

What I'm trying to figure out is what or who Cat believes to be impeding the investigation.  I don't disagree that it has been impeded.  It dropped off the radar screen as soon as it showed up -- only to resurface now to tell us that former Security Adviser Berger is getting his wrist slapped for doing a no-no.  The question is why?  Who would the Bush admin be trying to protect?
Denise
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8 posted 04-02-2005 12:43 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't know and I don't care. They all protect each other. Pick one.
Balladeer
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9 posted 04-02-2005 01:19 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What I find to be so entertaining in a way with regards to this case is the left's reaction to it. We have seen countless times in threads here about the sneakiness of Bush, his dirty tricks, his dishonesty and a myriad of other insinuations and accusations directed at him and his cronies - which even may or may not have validity - and yet, when this Berger situation came up, those same critical voices against the Bush regime suddenly developed laryngitis. A thread came up when Berger was caught and all we got was a "no big deal" or "so what" from the anti-Bush group. I think there is little doubt that, if this had happened with a conservative being caught stealing documents, stuffing them down his clothes, shredding them, etc, this forum would have been flooded with outrage with those same voices calling for heads to roll. This particular case is a prime example of how, not only here but also in Congress and the liberal press along with liberal groups everywhere, if something is done by the Bush entourage, it's evil but if done by the Democrats, it's a "no big deal". Attempts to change the subject are to be expected. Berger's acts were illegal and certainly part of some type of action to do with the election and yet liberals can not come out and acknowledge it and, by not doing so, show that their views are based on prejudices and not any type of fairness  or reason at all.

Over the course of the last campaign, Bush had quite a few opportunities to nail Kerry to the wall, along with other leading Democrats, and he passed on all of them - even to the point that his own party was a little exasperated with him. He could have destroyed Kerry on his Viet Nam record (even more than Kerry destroyed himself) and yet he preferred to act with a certain amount of restraint and class. I think that, in this case, Bush feels that no purpose would be served by crushing Berger like the roach he is and Bush is willing to let the slap on the wrist suffice and let's move on..

My opinion, anyway...
Brad
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10 posted 04-02-2005 01:59 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Looking at the list of people having their character being destroyed on this board, I was wondering who would be next.

I guess this one.

So how much dirt and inuendo are we going to supply this week?

Local Rebel
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11 posted 04-02-2005 06:22 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

So deer?  The administration hates Martha Stewart but loves roaches?  

What thread is it of which you speak where 'liberals' said the Berger case was no big deal?
Denise
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12 posted 04-02-2005 07:28 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thank you, Michael.

Just as with the document that came out during the campaign period ON DEMOCRATIC LETTERHEAD....it was NO BIG DEAL and the only issue was WHO WAS BEHIND ITS BEING LEAKED?????? The dirty tricks outlined in the memo were not important...but what was? Who was the louse who leaked it???? No importance was given to the blatant politicizing.

But most recently with the supposed Republican 'talking points' regarding Terri Schiavo, purportedly attempting to politicize the situation, it was not important that it was on plain paper, not initialed or signed, full of typos and misspellings, etc., it was treated as iron-clad proof of Republican dirty tricks and the question of who leaked it was of no importance.

I have come to the conclusion that liberals are from another planet, and I'm being kind.
Denise
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13 posted 04-02-2005 07:36 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Brad,

The people you are referring to have destroyed their own characters.

If we aren't supposed to bring reprehensible behavior to light, maybe an amendment should be passed making it illegal to speak the truth, or, maybe more to the point, since most liberals don't believe that 'truth' exists, maybe we should just forbid any disagreement with the emotings of the liberals.
Ron
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14 posted 04-02-2005 10:08 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Truth exists, Denise. It's just that people who takes sides -- any sides -- rarely bother to look for it. They prefer justifications to truth, conspiracies to investigations, and divisiveness to cooperation.

Blind loyalty, whether to a party or an ideology, is easier than thinking. And it's obviously a lot more common.
Denise
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15 posted 04-02-2005 12:53 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

So true, so true, Ron.
Alicat
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16 posted 04-02-2005 04:05 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Been working on the SO's system today, so I'll get to your questions now, LR.  See, I neither mentioned nor implicated anyone outside of Mr. Berger.  Not President Clinton, not President Bush Sr/Jr, not the Republicans, not the Democrats, not the Left/Right/Progressives/Liberals/Independants; noone but Mr. Berger.  And I have the gut feeling that he will be the one impeding this FBI investigation.  His original story was that it was an accident.  He later pled guilty to the crimes, but never said why he did it, or whom, if anyone, set him up to do it, or if there was any exchange of cash/favors/protection during his press conference.  All he basically said was that he had pled guilty, was helping the FBI, and that he had made a mistake in stealing and destroying security papers and memos from the National Archives.  I'll admit that I would be very surprised if anyone else was arrested or even mentioned during the course of this investigation.
Balladeer
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17 posted 04-02-2005 05:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, reb, the admin doesn't love roaches...they just feel sorry for the little fellers Martha they don't feel sorry for at all but, then, she's a different kind of vermin
Brad
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18 posted 04-02-2005 05:35 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
The people you are referring to have destroyed their own characters.


And when it happens to you, I'll still be a character reference. Don't worry, I don't expect the same from you. You think I'm from another planet.

quote:
If we aren't supposed to bring reprehensible behavior to light,


And you've never done anything wrong?

quote:
maybe an amendment should be passed making it illegal to speak the truth,


Or maybe we should use our brains a bit more and attempt, I don't know, DUE PROCESS.

Do you know how many times I've heard, "I'm sure it's true" and do you know how many times I think, "So what?" Certainty does not making something true anymore than wishing something weren't true or not true.

quote:
maybe more to the point, since most liberals don't believe that 'truth' exists, maybe we should just forbid any disagreement with the emotings of the liberals.


You really don't know what a liberal is, do you?  I'm a liberal and I've offered the same definition of truth several times over the years. I've tried to explain the problems with truth and being certain of truth again and again.

I can't remember who said this but respect the person searching for truth, beware the person who is sure they know it.

Balladeer
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19 posted 04-02-2005 05:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, Brad, if you have "offered the same definition of truth several times over the years", that sounds like you're sure you know it.
Local Rebel
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20 posted 04-02-2005 06:11 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

So then, Cat, you think Sandy Berger killed Vince Foster?
Denise
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21 posted 04-02-2005 07:47 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Brad, please, I'd prefer that you didn't bring up DUE PROCESS right now so soon after our judicial branch has just sanctioned and carried out the cruel protracted killing of a disabled woman, a fellow American citizen, who was not terminally ill, who did not even meet the state of Florida's own definition of PVS, for whom there was only the hearsay evidence of her estranged husband and two of his relatives as to her wishes to die if she ever became dependent, (and yet the judge declared it a finding of fact, despite sworn testimony and sworn affidavits to the contrary by her family and friends, just one of many improper findings and other improprieties, such as his refusal 5 times to recuse himself when requested to by the family, in violation of Florida statutes) because they didn't believe that she deserved DUE PROCESS and were incensed that Congress, by the authority of the 14th Amendment, because of so many blatant irregularities in this case, asked them to investigate the facts anew and to determine whether or not the findings of fact had been properly arrived at before the death ORDER was carried out, the same courtesy given to a common criminal in this country. Her DUE PROCESS took a back seat to the arrogant egomaniacs' desire to exalt their authority against Congress. What about her DUE PROCESS, Brad?

Where are the voices of the liberal world about this?

Where are the voices of the idiots in Hollywood who hold fundraisers for a cop killer (Abuh Jamal) decrying the violation of his rights because he wants another appeal?

Where are the voices of those who had spasms over the rights of prisoners in Abu Ghraib and Guantonomo Bay?

Where are the voices of those screaming about cruel and unusual punishment concerning criminals?

Where are the voices of the feminist groups when a state allows an estranged husband life and death rights over his disabled wife?

Where are the voices of the folks who want to give us all free health care because they recognize the value and worth of the poor, the sick and the disabled?

Where are all the voices of those who advocated for embryonic stem cell research in an effort to help their favorite disabled person, Christopher Reeves?

NOTHING BUT SILENCE.

Except from the ACLU, who had been footing most of the legal bills in the effort to have Terri starved to death.

I'm sorry Brad, these people are not only from another planet but from another galaxy.

As for DUE PROCESS for the cast of characters involved in this case, I would think investigating them and bringing their behaviors to light would have to come BEFORE their receiving their DUE PROCESS.

And I'll ask you a question. If in the unforseen event that you found yourself with a brain injury and couldn't effectively communicate your wishes, and despite being so disabled, to your amazement you also find that you still have a strong desire to live and are bound and determined to fight to get better instead of being starved and dehydrated to death, despite what you may have previously thought that you would want under those circumstances, but you find now that you just can't speak to let anyone know about your wishes, even as you hear the doctor discussing your vegetative state, would you rather have me speaking to the doctor on your behalf or, oh, I don't know, let's say Nancy Pelosi?

Sorry for the sidetrack, Ali....back to Berger.

Brad
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22 posted 04-02-2005 08:23 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I'll save most of my response (If I can find the time and motivation) for another thread, but in answer to your question concerning whether to pull the plug on myself, the answer is astonishingly easy.

I don't want congress, Nancy Pelosi, you, my parents or anybody outside my family to make that decision.

The only person who knows what's best for me and more importantly what's best for my family is my wife.

Regardless of what happens in the future, I know that her concerns are and always will be the same as mine.

If pushed, I may not be able to convince any of you of this, but that's why it should stay in the immediate family.

  
Brad
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23 posted 04-02-2005 08:26 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

oh, and one more thing, what's better way of making decisions than Due Process?

Is it perfect?

Of course not.

But it's certainly better than anything else I can think of.
Denise
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24 posted 04-02-2005 09:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

DUE PROCESS is not DUE PROCESS if it is not afforded, Brad. She did not receive it. That's my point. She had a guardian ad litem who was fired by the judge because he recommended not pulling the feeding tube. The next guardian ad litem was appointed by the judge, a person who openly questioned the Constitutionality of Terri's Law on a news program. And for all successive hearings the judge appointed himself as her guardian ad litem.

And this was not a typical case that should have remained 'in the family'. The obvious and blatant corruption of that Florida court was the reason for the family petitioning Congress, and for Congress agreeing to try to get legislation passed to allow them a de novo hearing in the Federal Courts. They would not have even considered doing such a thing if there were not some pretty serious problems evident with the actions of the state court.

If you were in Terri's situation, with a spouse who had 'moved on', I'm sure you would feel differently. And your parents are your immediate family, and the next in line, in most states, in the absence of a spouse, or a spouse who no longer qualifies due to a conflict of interest as obvious as having a new partner.
 
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