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Passions in Poetry

Sandy Berger

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Denise
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25 posted 04-02-2005 09:47 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Sorry again, Ali.

I'm gone.
Mistletoe Angel
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26 posted 04-02-2005 10:30 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Just so you know, I would have responded to this thread earlier, but I'm not excited to join in here now just because I don't like at all the direction this thread has gone. It's just so ugly-sounding right now, so much bitterness.

What can I say? I'm a spring chicken to the dusty world of politics. In two years I have already formed strong opinions and understandings of Bush and the war in Iraq, and believe in what I believe very strongly because I have taken the time to get out there in the community and see myself dissent washed out and it's as though only the trigger of the gun is investigated in every major story, when the barrel is just as important of the anatomy of the story.

I'm not a fan of Bush and I wasn't a fan of Clinton either, simple as that. And as a liberal, I wouldn't be against penalization of those like Berger who truly didn't do their job or attempted to cover up or destroy part of the story.

But I've got to tell you, I'm utterly saddened with rhetoric being used here like "liberals must be from a whole other galaxy". What is that supposed to mean? We should be focusing on the issue itself rather than resorting to all this pundit/ talking heads cycle.

Then poor Terri Schiavo and Christopher Reeve gets planted into these discussion again, which they have NOTHING to do with this topic whatsoever.

Now, I, myself, can agree that I haven't fully developed an I-Thou personality in its fullest yet and I too resort to I-It talk in exposing Bush and such. Lord knows I'm still learning, and I'm still trying to. But what I will add is that I would NEVER suddenly pull up the name of Tom DeLay or John Bolton or whatever in a thread such as this in where they have no deep connection whatsoever and then morph that sort of discussion into a conservatives-must-be-from-Zeta Reculi crossfire.

And that's the last thing I'd wish for here, for I believe from the beginning of America's history so-called liberals and conservatives alike have built and influenced this nation both together and apart. The background in which I was raised within was truly a melting pot. I consider myself a strongly liberal independent, but I have always warmed up to the social conservative values of my grandparents as well. And together I'm pleased to say the ground of values I was raised on make up a great, colorful bouquet.

*

*

Anyway, I feel it essential to talk in these sorts of circles when this sort of crossfire happens and I really am hoping to see the discussion here turn back toward the issue itself respectedly.

I'm only faintly familiar with Sandy Berger so I would truly like a non-slanted history or understanding of this individual so I can make a future fair assessment.

I will say already that I believe any censorship, tearing or sweeping under the rug of any valuable documents is wrong and does injustice not just for those in power but for the whole community in general. And seeing that Berger pleaded guilty for those three documents, I believe justice must be made and Berger and others who may have been involved must be penalized.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Juju
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27 posted 04-03-2005 03:21 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

All I have to say as an conservative is, I like to conserve things like life and legal documents... But unfortunitly some poeple don't agree, because they are corrupt.

I wouldn't want to be hooked up on a breathing machine, brain dead... But I wouldn't want to starve to death like an old dog.

Back on subject... I blame the lack of coverage on... poeple are use to corruption from the clinton administration.  Bush after He was elected in 2000, pardoned clinton from all crimes, so clinton wont be punished. so what can they do?  

I hear Hillery is running after bush. I think I like Kerry more... I knew when he was up to something and I knew when he was lieing.


Juju
  

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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Southern Abstentia


28 posted 04-03-2005 12:17 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Okay I'll stop kidding the Cat (for now).

What Sandy Berger (Clinton's National Security Advisor) took from the National Archives were COPIES of the After Action Report that were prepared in early 2000 detailing the response of the Clinton admin to the terrorist threats posed during the Millenium Celebrations.  These were taken as Mr. Berger was sifting through thousands of documents to determine relevance for being made available to the 9/11 Commission for review.  

The 'stuffing in his pants and jacket pocket' charge does not relate to the actual document copies since they are bound reports of 30-50 pages each.  Rather, what he stuffed in his pants were his notes that he took while making the reviews (which is still a no-no).

It isn't accurate for the left to say 'no-harm no-foul they were just copies' because these were controlled copies -- as is the case with any classified document.  These 'copies' were distributed and routed through the Clinton White House (much in the way a memo would be circulated for review through a corporation).  As anyone who has ever participated in routed documents knows there are unique items that get handwritten on each one that might show who read each one and personal thoughts and reactions to what was being read -- even notes to the next person down the distribution chain.

What we know is controversial about the content of the After Action Report itself is that initially it was told to the commission that the thwarting of the Millenium plot was a model of how an administration should be handling terrorism.  Richard Clarke, however, said that what happened in the Millenium incident was exactly how NOT to go about handling terror and that the discovery of the Millenium plot was completely serendipitous.  So, this report would certainly have reflected Clarke's concerns about exactly that.  Along with his ongoing concerns about terrorism and detailed intelligence and recommended future actions.

The Bush administration released the information that Berger was under investigation exactly at the time the 9/11 Commission report was being released.  So, there is your election year angle Cat.  It was a diversion from the damaging information to the current administration.

Since Mr. Berger has plead guilty and received his sentence, there is little more to be investigated.  

What we have open for speculation is what notes might have been scribbled on those three copies that Berger destroyed -- and from the way this particular case was handled we can assume that it made the Clinton and Bush admins look bad in being non-responsive to Clarke's repeated warnings.  

As to what actual harm this incident has done.. apparently it is limited to the perpetrator, since there is no real loss of intelligence to the nation.  His political career is over.  All he can really look forward to now is becoming a Fox News whore along with Pat Cadell and Dick Morris.
Midnitesun
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29 posted 04-03-2005 12:24 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

thank you, Reb
Juju
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30 posted 04-03-2005 01:53 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Mistletoe Angle...  The commit was probably meant in the context simmiliar to men are from mars and wemon from venus.

Alicat
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31 posted 04-04-2005 07:00 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

It is rather humorous to me, albiet darkly, that this deals with neither Clinton's or Bush's administrations.  I guess many forgot that Berger, after being the National Security Advisor to President Clinton, was one of John Kerry's senior advisors, offered by the Clinton camp, and was only let go after getting caught stealing security documents from the National Archives.  And Berger wasn't an ignoramasus and fumble fingered stooge.  He was THE National Security Advisor, had very high security clearances, and knew exactly what he was looking for.

Mind ya, not casting new aspirtions on Kerry...Lord knows he has enough of his own invention.  Just another 'hmmmmm' moment.
Local Rebel
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32 posted 04-04-2005 07:15 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Gee I see your point Cat.  I mean. Really. Clarke was only the Counter-Terrorism Czar under Clinton and then under Bush (until Condy put him in a back office).  There's absolutely no tie in the 9/11 commission report to either administration either.  Clarke only authored the after-action report copies Berger destroyed.  

Yep.  There's hardly a connection at all.

Of course.  Berger should have resigned from politics BEFORE he ever got in trouble.  That would make sense.

Juju
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33 posted 04-05-2005 12:47 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

But Rebel corrupt poeple don't think things are wrong unless they get caught.  HE thought he wouldn't get in trouble. It makes me laugh.  I am sorry. Wierd.

Juju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


34 posted 04-05-2005 04:52 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

LR,

I think you are missing the point. They don't need a point to start a witch hunt.This is simply the next name on the list.

Hmmmmm, who will be next?
Alicat
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since 05-23-99
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35 posted 04-05-2005 09:38 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

I just can't help but wonder how loud the hue and cry would have been had the political parties been switched, with the felon being the former NSA from Reagan or Bush, SR.  Given the climate of mass media, I've no doubt there would have been a bit more interest in this incident, especially during an election year.
Not A Poet
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since 11-03-1999
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36 posted 04-05-2005 10:03 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

"Witch hunt" Come on Brad, wake up and act realistic. The man accidentally stuffed classified documents down his pants in a half-assed effort to swing a presidential election to his side. If you can call that a witch hunt then those are the kinds of witches that need to be hunted.
Balladeer
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37 posted 04-05-2005 12:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! If that's the best you've got, Brad, you're slipping...
Local Rebel
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Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


38 posted 04-05-2005 06:18 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Given the demands of the 24 hour news cycle we have today Cat I'm sure the media attention would be about the same depending upon what else is happening in the world.  It's not every week that John Paul II dies.

Regarding the political rancor -- I'm sure it would be proportional to the situation if the Democrats were in power and their House Majority leader was beleagered with ethics charges (oh yeah -- we've been there and done that).  

Regarding election year politics -- what you need to understand is that there is always election-year politics -- and this is 2006 election year politics -- and, the Republicans are shaking in their shoes because their own data shows they are in danger of losing 25 seats in the house (tipping control back to the Dems) amid the fall in popularity of their 2nd term Pres(and house seats are usually lost to the challenging party during a 2nd term Presidential mid-term Congressional election.)

What we need to learn to do is to separate the politics of 'scandal' from advancement of the issues.  If the reason we shouldn't vote for a political party is because there are 'crooks' in it -- then we can't vote for anyone.

When it comes to 'scandal' politics we need to learn to separate human failings (which are always going to occur where power is concerned) from sociopathic behavior.  
 
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