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Anti-War Protests

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Balladeer
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0 posted 03-21-2005 12:08 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Over the past week-end there were protests against the Iraq war. Japan, Australia, Turkey, Sweden, Greece and the UK along with the USA were some of the more prominent countries represented. One country was missing, though. Iraq. Now isn't that interesting? The country that was "invaded" by the United States and the coalition showed no protest whatsoever. Why not? In the days of Hussein any form of protest would have been met with force and death to the protestors but not today. The Iraquis are not afraid to publicly show their feelings and beliefs any longer, easily evidenced by the millions that turned out to vote. SO where was their protest against American actions that so many countries are criticizing? If there had been any, I have little doubt our ever-eager press would have been there to report it but there were no marches, no signs screaming "Yankee Go Home" or "Bush is a Murderer", as there are in other countries. Isn't that a little ironic to anyone?

Actually, if I were Iraqui I wouldn't have kindly feelings for the hundreds of thousands of protestors who, comfortable in the luxury of the freedom and democracy they enjoy, are condemning the actions that have brought that same hope of freedom, after decades of oppression under a brutal dictatorship, to the Iraqui people. I will not be surprised if the majority feel exactly that same way. The protestors are basically saying that they would prefer that the Iraqui people still be under the dictatorial hell they suffered at the hands of Saddam Hussein. They are saying that they would prefer that the tortures, murders, mass graves, genocide continue rather than have democracy in Iraq. They are protesting against what brought freedom for the Iraqui people. Oh, they will certainly be quick to claim that's no the case but, by inference, it can be no other way. If the protestors truly believe it was wrong for Bush to take Hussein out of power and introduce democracy to Iraq, then they are saying that it is preferable to them that the Iraqui people still be under Hussein's control. No wonder the Iraqui people would have hard feelings against the protestors, the sign-toters and poor man's Ciceros who voice their opinions and then go home, after passing their form of judgement, to a nice warm meal and comfy bed.

I think the Iraqui people made the greatest protest of the week-end .... by NOT protesting the war in Iraq. But, then, why should their feelings count? It's only THEIR country....
Ron
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1 posted 03-21-2005 06:08 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
The Iraquis are not afraid to publicly show their feelings and beliefs any longer, easily evidenced by the millions that turned out to vote.

Voting and protesting are hardly interchangeable activities, Mike. Especially when one might feel the Marine standing in the street with his M-16 wants you to do one and doesn't want you to do the other. I don't stop driving when I see a police car on the road with me. I do, however, often have to slow down.

quote:
They are protesting against  what brought freedom for the Iraqui people. Oh, they will certainly be quick to claim that's no the case but, by inference, it can be no other way.

I think you're drawing inferences, Michael, that shouldn't be drawn. Those of us who condemned Jack Ruby, in 1963, for killing Lee Harvey Oswald didn't do it because we sympathized with Oswald or, even, necessarily believed Oswald should be allowed to live. We condemned Ruby not because we believed his solution was wrong, but because HE was wrong.

I honestly don't know what the Iraqi people feel.

A good few years ago, when these forums were still new, I told a story about giving my nephew a computer for his fourteenth birthday, with the stipulation he had to help build and configure it. Joey spent a week sleeping on my couch while he learned about all the various hardware components and, together, we installed Windows 3.1 onto his newly constructed machine. After twenty years in California and just returning to Michigan, it was a good way to get to better know my sister's kid.

Last month, for ten short days, Joe came home on leave after spending the greater part of two years in Iraq. His MOS is in transport, so he's pretty much seen the width and breadth of Iraq, traveling with the convoys who depend on him to help keep the wheels turning. Joe and I talked a lot while he was home, in part, I think, because no one else in the immediate family has shared his military experience. Though our wars were separated by more than three and half decades, I guess I could understand some things that his mother and father could not.

I came away from our conversations with no greater understanding of most things than I had before we talked. Joe's stories were often as contradictory as is human nature, and I could only conclude the Iraqis are as divided and polarized as is the rest of the world. There are no easy answers, no quantifiable deductions, no black and white conclusions. There are only people, much like any other people, seeing a world inevitably tinted by their own unique perspective.


Alicat
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2 posted 03-21-2005 08:52 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

The Iraqis have protested post-Hussein before, if anyone cares to remember.  They protested non-Muslims entering Mosques, even if the entering was to flush out terrorists and seize weapon caches.  They protested the government regarding the upcoming election.  Varying factions protested each other.  Some of the more daring have even protested the insurgency.  Unlike Bin Laden, most Iraqis don't live in caves and are very privy to world happenings, and they do have multiple media deliveries, both state and private, pro-terroist and pro-democracy, and I'm very certain they knew what was going to happen this weekend with this 'global' anti-military anti-US protest in varied Democracies.  I agree with Balladeer on this, since at least one news outlet out of the myriad would've reported any type of anti-military demonstration.

Ron's point is very true.  We's all people, wearing differently tinted glasses.
Aenimal
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3 posted 03-21-2005 09:40 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

let's see.. strict curfews, military occupation, dangerous checkpoints, rebel/coalition skirmishes.. yes...the perfect setting for a mass congregation.

when will the haze lift? does history teach us nothing? we're smarter than this.


"U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote : Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror...United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam 's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting. According to reports from Saigon , 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday.  Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong. A successful election has long been seen as the keystone in President Johnson's policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in South Vietnam The purpose of the voting was to give legitimacy to the Saigon Government..."

September 4, 1967 NY Times


For anybody wanting to shovel through propaganda and read for themselves what the 'Liberal' media should be reporting see Iraq Facts at:
http://www.democracyrising.us/

Amnesty International's history/summary of occupation abuses:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/irq-summary-eng

Kevine Zeese's summary on the anniversary of occupation at:
http://www.counterpunch.org/zeese03162005.html

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (03-21-2005 10:14 AM).]

Balladeer
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4 posted 03-21-2005 12:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Voting and protesting are hardly interchangeable activities, Mike. Especially when one might feel the Marine standing in the street with his M-16 wants you to do one and doesn't want you to do the other.

I certainly agree, Ron, that they are not the same but there are similarities, one being that in both cases personal feelings are openly expressed...and from what I have read and heard from the people I have spoken to who have returned from Iraq they do not give the impression that the Iraquis are afraid that the marine on the corner is ready to shoot them for expressing their views. The fact remains that the Iraqui populace has NOT demonstrated to have the US leave. Not only that, I did not see in any of the articles I read concerning the world-wide protests any information about Iraquis living in other countries taking part in any of these protests or condemning the coalition's actions. The US certainly has a fair-sized contingent of Iraquis....I haven't heard anything about protests from them. Let's ask Noah how many Iraquis took part in his demonstration

Your comparison with Jack Ruby strikes me as comparing marbles to cannonballs, I'm afraid. In Ruby's case, had he not killed Oswald...so what? Oswald would have stood trial, perhaps information would have come out of a conspiracy or who-knows-what...but so what? In the case of Iraq we are speaking of millions of people being affected by one's actions. Perhaps you are referring to the "I don't object necessarily to the action but the fact he lied to us" argument, in that case tying it in to the Ruby scenario where Bush's actions may not necessarily been wrong but it was gone about in the wrong way. No reason to re-hash that point since it has been done in so many previous threads but I don't really think many Iraquis care if Bush "lied", "misrepresented", or did any of the things that aggravate so many people. Whatever he did, and for whatever reason, took Hussein out of power and gives them a chance at personal liberties which would have been considered unthinkable had not the coalition taken SH out of power. The protestors, unable to declare they would have  preferred Iraquis to continue living under the torture tactics of the Hussein family, stomp their $200.00 Reboks on the pavements and declare, "Well, it was HOW he did it!" I have no problem with peace marches at all. I would welcome any march calling for peace anywhere on earth and condemning violence in any form. These protestors, however, aren't content with that. They have to berate Bush and the administration, call him a murderer and burn him in effigy....for committing the actions that they are afraid to condemn without basically telling the Iraqui people that the world would have preferred the Iraquis remain under the sadistic rule of Hussein as opposed to being given freedom. That would be a hard sell...

No, Ron, I don't honestly know what the Iraqi people feel, either, but we are all blessed with eyes, ears and brain enough to draw at least halfway reasonable conclusions of certain things based on what we witness. In the case of this thread, we have an attacked and occupied country NOT protesting that action and the other countries of the world screaming that it was wrong..what's wrong with that picture? I saw the program on 60 Minutes where dozens of Iraqis were interviewed about the situation and, although many were unhappy about the current conditions, NOT ONE said when asked that they would prefer that HUssein still be in power, nor have I heard any instance of any Iraqi anywhere in the world (not related to the Hussein regime) making that statement. Add that to the incredible turnout in the election, add that to the progress being achieved and pride shown as the Iraqis construct their police departments and army....and we don't have to know exactly how they feel to know that they are not unhappy that Husein was taken out of power. Next time you see a "Bush is a Murderer" sign being held on the streets of Baghdad, let me know. I don't think you'll see one - those people know what a real murderer looks like - one ruled them for over half a century.

I would have loved to have spoken with your nephew. I'm sure you had some excellent discussions about the situation over  there. Traveling through all the towns must have given him a great opportunity to see Iraq and its people in a much more intimate way than we can see from here. It's something that he will carry with him for the rest of his life. Give him a salute from me...
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
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5 posted 03-22-2005 08:32 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

regarding the incredible turnout of the legitimate elections in iraq
http://democracyrising.us/content/view/45/74/

Balladeer
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6 posted 03-22-2005 10:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If you will check the subject of this thread I think you will see that it is about the anti-war protests, Raph. I would welcome any comments that relate to that topic.
Aenimal
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7 posted 03-22-2005 10:38 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

if you will check your comments, i think you'll see references to 'incredible' election turnouts and other topics my comments and the links i've provided address
Balladeer
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8 posted 03-22-2005 11:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

True, I spoke of election turnouts to show a comparison to the non-protest turnouts, which is the topic of the thread.

I tried to phrase my comment politely but, as usual with you, it doesn't matter. Alicat, go ahead and close this one down, ok? I pass...
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
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9 posted 03-22-2005 11:09 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

you're taking this rather personally, i stated the links i've provided counter certain points you mention and am offering them for anyone who wants to read them
Alicat
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10 posted 03-23-2005 12:17 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Closed by request of author.
 
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