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Passions in Poetry

"Old-Fashioned Religion"?

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Mistletoe Angel
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0 posted 03-04-2005 05:54 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Criminal defense attorney and nationally syndicated Clear Channel radio host Bill Cunningham, who appeared on Hannity & Colmes Thursday, discussed an amateur video that has recently surfaced showing a New Jersey high school teacher "screaming at his class and pulling the chair from underneath a student who refused to stand for the national anthem,", believing the teacher was justified for his actions, and also believes in teachers beating students physically in disciplining them when misbehaving.

Take a look at this transcript from the segment on ysterday's program:

*

ALAN COLMES (co-host): Look, is it OK? Do you have a First Amendment right not to stand up during the Pledge of Allegiance or "The Star Spangled Banner"?

CUNNINGHAM: Alan Colmes, I think if you're a 16- or 17-year-old miscreant, and you don't know the sacrifices of American soldiers from Iwo Jima through Fallujah, if you have no idea what the red, the white and the blue stands for, I think to have the chair pulled out from under you is the least of what should happen.

And back in the good old days at Deer Park High School, Alan Colmes, the board of education would have met my derriere, and Ma Cunningham would have beat me about the face and head if I had done similar things.

And I think it's reprehensible that you sit there and defend someone like this who has no right to be a clown. That kid was a clown, and he got exactly what he deserved.

COLMES: I bet you were never a clown in school, huh, Bill?

CUNNINGHAM: Never at all. I followed the American way.

COLMES: Look, are you OK with the idea that a school, a government school, a teacher in a government school, could whack your child, could hit your child, could physically harm and without your permission as a parent? That would be OK with you?

CUNNINGHAM: No problem. In the good old days, back when AIDS was an appetite suppressant and when gay meant you were happy, back in those days there was discipline in public schools. But not today.

We need more of that old-fashioned religion, and we need more teachers beating people about the face and head, especially on the derriere. If we had more of that, believe me, we'd have less people thinking like you.


*

(shakes head) Unbelievable.

But I just thought this would be an interesting discussion to start off after the differing views on the "Minor Death Penalty" thread, where there were some thoughts resonating in the belief that if we had public executions in the U.S, it would intimidate everyone to the point in encouraging no other murders and crime out of scare tactics or such.

Is Cunningham simply incredible here for even believing that like I feel, or could he perhaps be onto something here?

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Ringo
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1 posted 03-04-2005 11:21 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Noah- This is, indeed, a very interesting topic. SHould be good to see what everyone's thoughts are.

As for me, Do I feel that the teacher was right to pull the chair out from under the student? No.

Is not standing exercising the student's first amendment rights? Possibly. Probably.

Does the student have the right to defy authority in such a manner as to not obey school regulations that state everyone with first amendment rights will stand during the Pledge of Allegience or the National Anthem? Absolutely not.

Although every American, as well as those who live in America yet aren't citizens, have certain rights guaranteed to them by that ground-breaking and history-making document that people love to stand behind, There are times when those rights are temporarily suspended. One prime example would be when one joins the military. You will never have to ask any Marine the significance of Iwo Jima (to use his analogy), or what it is the military (and the men and women who have died in her service) has given for them to have the rights others have. Yet, the members of the military do not enjoy the same rights to free speech that they are giving to everyone else.
When a superior officer enters the room, all (in my case) Marines WILL come to the position of attention. End of story. Case closed, next case. If one chooses to exercises her/her first amendment rights to not stand, then one is subject to more severe punishments than haveing a chair pulled out from under them (and that might be where the punishment starts).

Let's go to a professional athelete. Let's say that they choose to exercise their first amendment rights to not run a lap around the stadium. Again, their consequences are much more harsh than losing their seat.

Finishing this line of thought, let's stop at Papa Stott's house, and his eldest son being stupid enough to exercise his forst amendment rights at the age of 17 to say what I wanted to say during the dinner blessing (and not use a properly respectful prayer), and to not stand during the National Anthem. OH, HELL, NO!!!!!! From experience, I can tell you that the punishments are very swift, very decisive, and very much more unleasant than getting a chair pulled out from under me.

One last thought (now that you have me thinking... always a dangerous thing!!):
If you read the Constitution carefully, you will discover that NOTHING in it is directed towards any minor. At first, it was white men only (with slaves being worth nothing, and freed male slaves being worth 3/5 of a "man"). Eventually, women entered the picture, and then did minorities. The ONLY thing that related to teenagers is the right to vote at the age of 18. I do agree that children are protected, however only to the extent where they are obeying the lawful, safe orders of those in seniority to them.
The final meaning of this entire rant? The kid was being a shmuck, and should be appropriately disciplined for not obeying school rules.

In the wooden chair
Beside my window
I wear a face born in the falling rain

Mistletoe Angel
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2 posted 03-05-2005 01:42 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Oh Ringo, you hit it right on the nail!

No, I am not defending that student's behavior here. He SHOULD be disciplined. I just don't believe in any sort of that physical contact or beating to do so. I don't know of his permanent record or anything to see if this is a recurring type of behavior pattern he has, but if this was an unusual act of disrespect, he ought to be put in detention and have a long conference or whatever. If this is a recurring situation, he ought to be suspended temporarily or expelled if in more extreme cases.

And it seems another video was just released from that same school as well that reveals even more unruly behavior on school there. It strikes me as that the kids are disrespectful, but also that this school may not be doing their job as well as they should.

That kid was acting up. But I happen to believe too that if this teacher can't control a classroom of 16/17 students, he's performing unexemplary in his job as well, and if he is going to continue to fail to discipline the class, maybe he shouldn't be teaching anymore.

This issue goes both ways. I feel both are guilty consciences in some means here.

But frankly, I am exceptionally bothered that, in response to this, there are actually those like Cunningham who see pulling a chair out from under someone is "the least that should happen" and he actually advocates the "beating" of students.

I'm assuming he means "beating" as paddling like teachers would do more often before when a child misbehaved in the past in public schools, but what bothers me especially is he wasn't even specific on how he believes the children should be "beaten". Some may actually believe in kicking a child or such, and that is child abuse in any form.

I'll tell you, if you ever saw that episode of "King of the Hill" with Peggy taking Cotton's advice and using a paddle to scare and discipline the classroom, and remember everyone in Arlen giving her a disgusted or troubled look, I believe that's generally how people think of that unhumane, outdated form of discipline. And I just feel we're exactly moving backwards should we may just have more Paddlin' Peggy Hills put back in our schools!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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3 posted 03-05-2005 03:12 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Inhumane? Come on, thats a bit much. I was spanked, and if I back-talked my mom today, at the age of 20 I'd get a much deserved smack in the face. (which I've gotten at the age of 13, and yeah, I pretty much deserved it)

I can see why spanking shouldn't be in public schools, but when my parents were in school, they got spanked. If they got spanked in school, they got it even worse at home, and well, things were better then than they are now. *shrug*

But inhumane? No.

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Mistletoe Angel
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4 posted 03-05-2005 03:45 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Erica, where did I say "spanking" here? I never said spanking in this thread until now.

Anyway, I, personally, don't believe in spanking, as I believe in the philosophy of Dr. Benjamin Spock, but I do also accept it is generally accepted that parents spank their children a few times or so in their lives. I'll never spank my children in disciplining them when I become a father in the future, but I understand parents apanking their children is natural.

In public schools, I certainly oppose spanking, and I'm sure many do. But that's not the point here.

I'm concerned here of Cunningham advocating "beating" a student to discipline him or her. He wasn't specific, so it can mean any number of things. Paddling a child, kicking a child in the ankle, maybe even smacking a child with a belt or with a whip. Maybe he wasn't careful enough with his words, but judging by his tone alone, I am concerned and just startled by what he said.

I acknowledge the average parent probably agrees with spanking. I don't believe the average parent believes in whipping or physically hitting a child in any fashion more extreme than that.

You know, as much as everyone knows here how I have a grudge against Fox News and their biased programming, I often watch either the O'Reilly Factor or Hannity & Colmes once a week because though they may be anything but fair and balanced, they still are a vital source of right-wing opinion and commentary and I tune in jus to understand their point of view. I happened to tune in to Thursday's Hannity & Colmes, saw this, and decided out of curiousity what the follow-up on the story would be like.

It was much tamer. They had the Vice President of the Heritage Foundation on condemning the teacher's actions and such. The Heritage Foundation is a conservative group that works in keeping the values of family together, and hearing the condemnation of his actions from her simply reinforces my belief the opinion of Cunningham is a small minority view.

Cunningham has every right to his opinion and such and I'm not scolding him for that in any fashion. I'm just troubled hearing him seize a story such as that in pushing the desire to bring back these forms of discipline beyond spanking that most find abusive to children.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Brad
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5 posted 03-05-2005 05:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
CUNNINGHAM: Alan Colmes, I think if you're a 16- or 17-year-old miscreant, and you don't know the sacrifices of American soldiers from Iwo Jima through Fallujah, if you have no idea what the red, the white and the blue stands for, I think to have the chair pulled out from under you is the least of what should happen.


Hmmm, maybe we should have sensitivity seminars?

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6 posted 03-05-2005 11:51 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

"I'll tell you, if you ever saw that episode of "King of the Hill" with Peggy taking Cotton's advice and using a paddle to scare and discipline the classroom, and remember everyone in Arlen giving her a disgusted or troubled look, I believe that's generally how people think of that unhumane, outdated form of discipline."

Now, what does one do with a paddle? What were you referring to when you said inhumane?

Using the paddle, right?

What do you use a paddle for?

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Mistletoe Angel
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7 posted 03-06-2005 01:27 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Well, naturally, a paddle was used in disciplining a child in the past by smacking their behind, which is essentially a more-aggressive spanking.

I personally consider it inhumane, but I guess I assume not all who don't agree in using a paddle to discipline their child would go as far as to consider it "inhumane". I recognize that.

But I have been in enough classrooms to recognize you just don't see paddles lying around anymore. That tells me we've evolved from that, we in general just don't believe in that form of punishment anymore.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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8 posted 03-06-2005 08:10 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

I have been in enough classrooms to recognize you just don't see paddles lying around anymore. That tells me we've evolved from that, we in general just don't believe in that form of punishment anymore.

It is true Noah, that most schools do not have paddles lying around any longer, and it is also true that behavior in many schools has deteriorated to the point where... well, we all know. Could there possibly be a connection? I am not advocating the unbridled butt-whuppin's that might possibly be suggested by Mr. Cuningham. I am however making a point for occasionally placing a firm hand (or paddle) on the seat of the problem.
When I was in school, (albiet Catholic school), I was a total dunce one day, and forgot my tie (I waas totally brain dead in those days) and when I was called on it, informed the teacher that I was done with those stupid things, and sisn't see the need for it, thank you very much. And that if she didn't like it, she could go to my house and get it for me. Well, after Sister finished applying her solution, she sent me to the school disciplinarian who provided me with his own particular brand of counselling. (sp) All I got was ONE swat across my clothed backside, and I promise you that in 1 more year of Catholic school, and 7 more years of publicx education (not including college), I never once even considered talking back to a teacher, and thought twice about talking back to an adult. Pretty strong re-inforcement for a crack from a frail old nun and another by a wooden paddle.


I'll never spank my children in disciplining them when I become a father in the future

With Respect, I can promise you that you don't know for an absolute what you will or will not do. I was of the same mind the enitre time I was growing up (and I didn't stop growing up uintil I had kids... and my ex would say not even then). However, my son was (and is) a strong-willed, bull-headed, gonna-do-my-thing- regardless kind of a boy. His mother and I tried yelling, grounding, taking away the Ninetndo (or other), taking away everything except his right to breathe, and sometimes it just didn't work. I only hit my son maybe twice, (and only once each time) however the infractions that I was reduced to corporal punishment for, he has never done in my presence again. The only other thing that I have ever done that was of a physical nature is when my son decided he was bigger (which he was) and badder(Which he wasn't) than I was (an inevitability in life), and pushed me. By the time he realized something was wrong, I had him in a headlock and was rubbing his face in the dirt, and he was screaming for mercy. It didn't hurt him, however he realized that *I* ws still in charge and that *I* made the rules. To this day, even though we have eveolved into more friends than parent/son, he still treats me with respectI do not suggest that anyone do such things, however, you have to fit your rearing strategies to each child individually. Dr. Spock forgot to teach us that.
BTW.. my daughter very seldom requires more than a stern warning, and a raised voice will usually stop her in her tracks and upset her. For her, Dr Spock has something to say.

In the wooden chair
Beside my window
I wear a face born in the falling rain

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9 posted 04-27-2005 01:48 AM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

Well, I am late as always at getting in on the good stuff lol.... but heres my pennies worth on the matter.

I have never, and never will say that "to beat a child is okay"  I think that if you beat your children, then you don't need them in the first place.  Now, with that being said, and having a 15 year old at home, I will tell you that "no no" doesnt work for him anymore.  You almost have to become physical with him to get your message across.  I have never hit him, but I have jacked his cocky little 15 year old rear end up against a wall and let him see that Girls can be just as BAD as boys if they wanna be LOL

As far as what happened to that child in the classroom, well... as a mother, if that had been my child, lets just say that I would have in my own sweet southern way raised the roof off that school house as soon as I could have.... Then?

Once we got home, this certain young man would quickly learn the meaning of "when mama aint happy, aint no one happy"

And? as an added note.  I think that if your child learns the right way at home, then he or she will be pretty safe in the real world as far as choosing the right thing to do when the time comes.  So what if you want to excercise your rights.... and even if you are totally opposed to war or whatever... some of these men and women that are over there ARE NOT THERE BY CHOICE... and there families feel that pain far more than a chair being pulled from under you will ever cause.

I dont agree totally with what that teacher done, but maybe to him showing respect means SHOWING RESPECT and not acting like a spoiled brat just because you can.  

Yes, I as a parent would certainly be angry and everyone including my child would know it. I would defend my childs right to be treated like a human being, but when we got home, that same child would know that respect for others is to given, and not asked for.

Oh almost forgot... I personally dont see that this incident has anything to do with religion.  He wasn't being asked to recite the book of Psalm, he was being asked to show respect.  Religion has nothing to do with school anymore, because we as a society have made it ok to remove prayer and the Bible, all the while opeing the doors for guns and drugs.  Maybe IF religion was allowed back in, these teachers wouldnt need to MAKE these kids mind... they would know to do so without excesive force, or chair yanking.
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10 posted 04-27-2005 09:57 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

SPANKING isn't BEATING

There is a huge difference.

And people wonder why children don't know how to behave anymore.. geez

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

 
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