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Where is the outrage?

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Sunshine
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200 posted 04-01-2005 02:09 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

jbouder
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201 posted 04-01-2005 02:22 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

I don't think demonizing Michael Shiavo is particularly productive.  There are other explanations (whether we believe them or not) for his determination to see this through.  We can't discount the possibility that he strongly believed he was being faithful to his wife's wishes, as he understood them.

Do I think the courts failed to give sufficient weight to Michael Schiavo's glaring conflicts of interest?  Absolutely.  If Terri Shiavo expressed to him, truly and unambiguously, that she wished to die rather than live the way she ended up living, is Michael Shiavo wrong for having done so?  I might answer "yes," others might answer "no," but under such circumstances, I might be inclined to admire his loyalty to her.  If Terri never really expressed such wishes and Michael fabricated the story for monetary gain, does that make him an immoral lout?  Yes.

There are just too many "ifs" in this sad story.  For me, I'm not willing to go further than saying the whole scenario was gravely unfortunate.  On the face, it seems that at least some of Mr. Schiavo's actions were unfair or even wrong (particularly when the parents were not permitted to be with Terri Schiavo when she died).  Whether that translates into maliciousness remains uncertain to me.  Maybe we'll know someday soon.  Maybe the autopsy will reveal she had some cognitive ability remaining that could have served as a foothold for new treatment.

If the courts followed the rule of law, then perhaps the legislature should consider improving the law, or at least clarify that living wills must be written in order to be actionable.  If the judges overstepped their authority, then there is a need for reforming the courts.  There's potentially enough blame to go around to exercise a little caution here.

Jim
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202 posted 04-01-2005 02:43 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Well, the problem was that Shiavo only remembered his wife's 'wishes' after the medical malpractice settlement.  Even then, it took a few years for him to recall passing comments 20 years prior.  Every single promise he made in court for the settlement were broken by the time he recalled her 'wishes', about the same time he persuaded Judge Greer to allow him to use all the funds earmarked for Terri's rehabilitation for legal fees, which promptly annulled a promise made during the settlement hearings to use the funds to help his wife.  I have no doubts that he put her there in the first place, and made very sure she would never contradict his stories.  People seem to forget that Terri could talk during those initial years, prior to the allegations of insulin injections.

He blocked access to all medical records, releasing only a handful 10 years after the fact from discovery attempts by the Shindler's attorney.  He refused MRI or PET scans.  He refused the polygraph.  He played the part of loving husband until he got a malpractice settlement, then sought and found cohorts who would help him legally kill his 'albatross'.

The physicians implicated during the malpractice hearings have all been cleared and reinstated, and several agencies are looking into possible fraud committed by Michael Shiavo.  I do wonder if he remembered to take out a large insurance policy on Terri, prior to feeding tube removals.
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203 posted 04-01-2005 03:08 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

I do think she was able to recieve Last Rights. Denise?

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
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Juju
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204 posted 04-01-2005 06:54 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

no me

I just say that, as a cathlic. If he wouldn't give her last rightss than there would be something seriously wrong.  You see, When I heard that she was a vegi... I remember thinking, oh wait she can talk right? I don't know. I just think it is to late to save her, all we can do is paass laws and get some detectived one that guys back... IF I was a family member that is what I would do.  I heard that the guy was abusive????? verbally?????? and was all ways trying to get her to lose wait.... But I wouldn't trust that, because I could be thinking of some one else.  I know that the one sister hated him previous to her heart attack so  eh.  I hate being stupid, but what does injecting insolin do?


Juju

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Alicat
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205 posted 04-01-2005 07:17 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

For a diabetic, insulin can be a life saver.  For a non-diabetic, it can kill you, sending you into glucose induced shock.  And I believe he was physically abusive.  The bone scan the family finally got hold of 10 years after it was originally taken showed 15 fractures, including several ribs, the sternum, and the femur.  The femur is the strongest bone in the body and can withstand impacts up to 400-450 pounds.  (Saw an episode on Myth Busters where they were rebuilding their dummy and needed to know the breaking point of the femur.)  By the time of the bone scan, all the fractures had healed on their own, but unless she was in a bad automobile accident, I'm at a loss how she could've gotten those naturally.  Not to mention her stiff neck upon initial admittance for her 'heart attack'.  Blood tests ruled out any heart attack, and the neck stiffness was synonymous with strangulation.  I did find it interesting that Michael first said she suddenly fell down in their apartment, then later said she had suffered a stroke, then later amended that to a heart attack which cut off circulation to her brain.  All those diagnoses from him were several years apart.

My view?  She demanded a divorce (which she was working up the courage to do...he is 6'8" after all), he beat the crap out of her, tried to choke her, then freaked out when he thought he had killed her.  His buddy the sheriff helped him out of a sticky legal mess.  I wish I knew who convinced Michael to file a medical malpractice suit against Terri's physicians, though I have an idea who convinced Michael to move Terri to a hospice.  Felos, who was on the board of the medical facility Terri was originally located.  My SO was stunned about the early move to a hospice, since that's where terminal patients go to die in relative comfort.  Felos, a proponent of euthenasia who became Michael's chief lawyer.  Felos, a personal friend of Michael's, along with Judge Greer.

It's quite a stretch of the English language to call Michael Terri's husband, seeing how he had already moved on, and moved in with another lady, and had 2 children by her.  But I guess you can't continue to be a legal guardian, executor of her estate, and payee of malpractice and insurance monies without being a spouse.  If he had divorced Terri, he would've had no say in anything, nor any claim to her settlement monies or insurance.
Denise
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206 posted 04-01-2005 08:27 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yes, she received the last rights/sacrament of the sick and dying, the day of the feeding tube removal, and again on Easter. Bobby Schindler requested it again on Wednesday, the afternoon before she died and Michael denied permission.

Jim, as Ali said, there are too many documented inconsistencies with Michael Schiavo in his behavior.

There is no doubt in my mind that he attempted to kill her the night she collapsed, and I don't think it would be too hard to prove in a court of law if an honest autopsy is done. It would be so much neater, wouldn't it, though, for the judge, and the members of the Florida senate, not to mention Michael and Felos, if the autopsy reveals nothing remarkable other than a brain so deteriorated that it's amazing that she was even able to breathe without a respirator? "Geeze, aren't we wonderful for knowing how bad off she was and putting her out of her misery. Oops, well no, we didn't mean misery, because how could she feel misery when she didn't have a brain? But if she did have a brain and could tell us what she wanted, why of course she would want to be starved and dehydrated. Only dogs and criminals don't deserve that kind of treatment. Then it's cruel and unusual, and obviously extremely painful. If you are sick or disabled, it's a thing of beauty, a 'process' to be desired.

Sorry, I've become a bit jaded over the past few months. Nothing can surpise me anymore. I wonder why the governor didn't take control of the body and have an autopsy performed by a medical examiner from outside of Pinellas County due to all that has happened and with faith in the officials of Pinellas County non-existent? Maybe Greer wouldn't have permitted it. Maybe there was a stipulation to that in the court order that Michael obtained just prior to pulling the tube pertaining to the disposition of Terri's body after death. Too bad Bush didn't get elected judge, then maybe he would actually have some authority in the goings-on in Florida. Terri would at least have had an outside chance of still being alive...maybe.
  
According to a couple of psychiatric profiles that have been done on Scvhiavo, his actions are consistent with a spouse abuser of the controlling type, which has been reinforced in his need to control even Terri's 'death process' and burial, his obsessive need to call the shots, despite the pain that he causes to others.

He not only refused to allow Terri's family to be in the room during her last hour, he also announced through a statement that the Schindler family is not welcome at the funeral and burial of her ashes (he is cremating her despite the wishes of her family, and he also refused permission to let them have her body at a funeral mass prior to the cremation), 'somewhere near Philadelphia' in a plot that was left to the Schiavo's by an aunt and uncle (he might have to sell one of his Mercedes to purchase a plot for her in Florida near him and her family? ...sorry for the sarcasm...nothing this guy has ever done makes any sense to me, other than as calculated attempts to cause as much pain as possible to those he despises) and will not disclose the location because he doesn't want the Schindlers to turn her burial into a 'circus'. It remains to be seen whether he will ever let them know where she is buried. I suspect that he won't, as he knows this will increase their pain, and would be consistent with all his other actions. Any one who has ever lost someone knows how vitally important it is during the grieving process, especially in the first six months or so, to be able to just go and be at the gravesite.

And putting her family aside for a moment, why would he bury his 'beloved' wife where he won't even be able to visit her?

And yes, getting insulin when you don't need it can kill you by sending you into hypoglycemic shock. According to the sworn affidavit of the nurse, four or five times, after a visit by Michael, who himself is a nurse, she found that Terri's glucose reading was non-existent and she had to administer glucose to stabilize her. She reported it to her superiors, and to the police, and was fired after the last time that she reported an incident. It was never investigated by anybody.  


*News Flash*

It was just announced that the Pinellas County medical examiner refused to allow any outside medical examiners to participate in or witness the autopsy.

Geeze, I am soooooo surprised.
Denise
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207 posted 04-01-2005 08:48 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thank you for putting up the candle, Karilea.

And thank you, Marge for being so thoughtful, and such a friend, in leaving such a lovely gift on my behalf for Terri's family at the hospice site. You are special.
Denise
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208 posted 04-01-2005 11:52 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
Terri is dead

After 14 days of torture, Terri Shindler-Schiavo finally succumbed to her court ordered execution by dehydration and starvation this morning.

The judicial branch of our government ordered an innocent disabled citizen to be summarily executed in the most horrendous manner.

Terri held on as long as she could. Many people who had the power to end her torture and save her life were given repeated opportunities do so. They turned down all opportunities. I think this is significant. Many judges in Florida and Atlanta, as well as on the US Supreme Court have blood on their hands.

Quite a few legislators in Florida also have Terri's death on their conscience. They may appear to be moving on, but they carry this crime with them.

Every single police officer who guarded the Woodside Hospice is tainted. These are the people who faithfully guarded Terri's room and searched her family to make sure they didn't smuggle in any water or food for Terri. These are the people who arrested the protestors who attempted to walk into the Hospice carrying water to offer to Terri. I wonder how they go home to their families every day. I wonder how they even sleep at night.

People at the Woodside Hospice are also implicated in Terri's death. After all, they were the ones who actually carried out the procedures that lead to Terri's death.

The US Congress made the most valiant effort to save Terri, in my opinion. Still, I think the presence of people in the Congress who wanted Terri dead may have hindered the emergency bill passed on Palm Sunday from truly being effective. They all know who they are, and they too have blood on their hands.

There has been much debate over whether or not the Bush brothers ought to have intervened despite the court orders and despite what the procedures were. I don't have a real answer to that question. When Jeb Bush attempted to send in the DCF to take custody of Terri last Wednesday, Judge Greer was tipped off and he responded by issuing a broad restraining order, which the police force of Pinellas Park pledged to uphold. Any further action on Jeb Bush's part could have lead to a showdown at the hospice leading to violence. I can understand why he backed down, but I can't say I respect that decision. Both a governor and a president take an oath to uphold the Constitution. The Constitution prominently states that all people have an inaleable right to life. Terri's inaleable right to life was not upheld by either her governor or her president. In that respect, neither Jeb Bush, nor George Bush fully lived up to their oaths to uphold the Constitution. In the end, they too allowed Terri to die.

Although I tried to save Terri's life by calling on the people who had any real authority to use it, in the end she still died. Should I have done more? What do I do now? Am I in some way responsible for her death as well? I mean, how did we get to this point as a nation, where our government can order the death of an innocent citizen? What do ordinary citizens like Terri's parents do when evil people are in power? What does your voice matter when activist judges can flip off Congress, the governor and the president?

Terri Schiavo is dead, killed by court order. In America. This is only the beginning of something truly awful.

We can't bring Terri back. But for the sake of our children we must fight this "something truly awful" the forces of the Culture of Death are hoping to usher in with her death. Please do not give up this fight. Take the time to mourn. Then find your place in this war and fight for all you're worth.

http://www.blogsforterri.com/

Denise
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209 posted 04-02-2005 01:12 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

For anyone wishing to send the Schindlers (Bob, Mary, Bobby and Suzanne) a sympathy card you can mail it to:

The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation
4615 Gulf Boulevard, 104-103
St. Petersburg, Florida  33706

For anyone wishing to send a Mass Card for Terri you can mail it to:

The Schindler Family
c/o Holy Name of Jesus Catholic Church
5800 15th Avenue South
Gulfport, Florida  33707

A funeral Mass will be held there on Tuesday, April 5th at 7 pm for Terri.

Please keep the family in your prayers.
Mistletoe Angel
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210 posted 04-02-2005 11:02 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



I have written a sympathy card for Terri's family and will have it mailed Monday! Thanks for the contact information, Denise!



*

*

God Bless You, Terri, rest in peace!

*

*

My prayers also go out to her family on this most sensitive day for them.

*

*

Now, again Denise, we haven't necessarily been eye to eye completely in the final days leading to her tragic passing, but I will say I still am deeply gladdened we found common ground together on this issue of life, I'm blessed by that!

I do hope that from this day forward we try and commit to ourselves the grave importance of this issue of long-term care and make sure those like Terri from here on out are given the fullest cushioning and respect before life decisions are made, and see to it that we can resolve future conflicts without resulting to political tug-of-war.

I myself was deeply troubled that Congress and others in higher positions of authority decided to intervene into the case and remove it from the state court, because it just saddens and troubles me to imagine in an editorial cartoon sense the depiction of one side that shares Terri's family's sentiments pulling Terri's arms and the other side that shares the sentiments of her husband pulling at her legs. In the end, I believe it not only tears the case apart, but the individual centered to the case itself.

I pray from this day forward that together we can recognize the issue of long-term care with both compassion and common sense. I fear myself that the end result of this will be Terri used as a stamp to further certain agendas, and I believe we must discipline ourselves to the best in taking the nervous energy generated from this debacle not for vilification of one another but as a positive outlet in the comfort and knowledge many have been truly touched and inspired by Terri and are interested in her example to see to it this sort of mistake doesn't happen again and in holding to that word we cooperate together in embracing the disabled and handicapped community.

Again, I am blessed we could have this thoughtful and productive discussion here.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

A Romantic Heart
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211 posted 04-03-2005 03:14 AM       View Profile for A Romantic Heart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for A Romantic Heart

Michael Shiavo is worse than Scott Peterson...makes me sick!

He wanted her dead to destroy evidence,(That is why the cremation not burial) he has been so afraid since he had tried to kill her the first time, that she would come out of this and tell the truth, and that is why no divorce, no recovery therepy. Think about it, it is all there in black and white.

You can't say you love someone in one breath and that you want to honor (your) their wishes,and be loving and living with a live-in wife with KIDS!
The proof is there, it has all been for his self!
Parents know, they just know, gut feelings, they know their children more than anyone and her parents knew who he was and what he has done!
At least Scott Peterson didn't have the government helping him to kill his wife!

This country needs another 911 wake up call, to open their eyes!(no, looks as though this one didn't help, or we would not have witnessed this unlawful act of injustice)

Now if the Schindlers had some oil or money to bargin with maybe their voice would have been heard,

Or if it was Ben Laddin or Hussin starving one of their disabled citizens, we would have to go in and demand justice, a cruel leader to preform such vile acts upon a human being? but the Shindlers don't own a country with oil do they?

The gas prices are outrageous,
Our troops need to come home,
Babies are being killed,
Starve a woman to death on national tv, allowing her husband to do it who probably abused her to put her there in the first place!

IS this is what America has become?

I hope Michael Shiavo reaps what he sows....
America needs to wake up and take a stand!

[This message has been edited by A Romantic Heart (04-04-2005 01:30 AM).]

Denise
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212 posted 04-03-2005 10:56 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Noah, The petition to Congress in this case to allow an appeal to the Federal Courts for a de novo hearing, (which the Federal Courts declined to grant) in light of all the obvious and blatant improprieties involved in the state court activities that led to the ORDER of death, would have been one of those cushions that you say we need.

And I see nothing wrong or inappropriate, in the attempt to have laws changed that would prevent another innocent person finding themselves in Terri's situation, to invoke the name, image, facts and details of Terri Schiavo.

Speaking of the final ORDER of Judge Greer, I'm sure many do not know that it was not an ORDER simply allowing Michael Schiavo to have the feeding tube removed as was the original ORDER of 2000. This was an ORDER that stated that Schiavo shall cause it to be removed, essentially removing even Michael Schiavo's right to act in the event of a change of heart about the situation, a fact that George Felos, Michael Schiavo's lawyer, was only too glad to state to the public. And it didn't merely state the 'feeding tube' shall be withdrawn, it stated 'food and hydration' shall be withdrawn.

The court did more than affirm the guardian's right to act, the court directly ordered the death to be effected, of a person who was not terminally ill, of a person who could not physically enunciate clearly enough, to the court's satisfaction, that she wanted to live. In response to one of the family's lawyer's urging to Terri that she could stop all of this right now, shortly before the feeding tube was removed, if she could only say, "I want to live", the court did not find the sworn affidavit of the attorney asserting Terri's reply of "AAAAHHHHH WAAAAAAAA" followed by an anguished scream, and then sobbing (by a pesron who has been denied speech therapy for 15 years), all heard by Terri's sister and brother-in-law and the police guard at the door (who initially stated that she did in fact hear it but then later recanted her statement) credible, and that even if he did find it credible, he was denying the motion because, in his opinion, it was not timely filed, regardless of the fact that the affidavit was part of the attorneys' planned submission to the Federal Court, if they were granted the de novo hearing, as authorized by Congress, that they tried to obtain that entire week, which as we have seen, was denied them, and since all hearings at the Federal level were denied, making it impossible to present this affidavit at the Federal level, they subsequently petitioned the State Court with the evidence.  Here is what I shared earlier about this:

quote:
  
I've also been sickened and angered by the media spin and Felos's spin about the family waiting until last night to tell Judge Greer about Terri trying to say "I want to live", implicating that it was a false statement. I personally read that statement by Barbara Weller the same evening of the day that the feeding tube was removed on March 18th. And here is the proof: (notice the date of the report)  http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43383  



The judge then further overstepped his authority, by Florida statute, when the parents petitioned to be able to attempt to nourish and hydrate her orally, since she could swallow, even if minimally, in that she did eat soft foods by spoon prior to the husband forbidding it after the feeding tube was placed (to ensure proper levels of nutrition), and in that she swallowed her own saliva and sinus secretions without choking. People who can't swallow can't do that. In reponse to this final petition the judge ordered that no food and hydration could be administered orally, even to the extent that not even ice chips could be placed on her tongue, nor a wet sponge applied to her dried cracked and bleeding lips, nor could the inside of her mouth be swabbed with water, all standard protocols for hospice care, in the relieving of suffering.

And in response to your dismay at my saying in Aliís thread  (to which I wonít be replying in there anymore about this, out of respect for Ali) Ďliberals are from another planetí, I was mistaken. I should have said that Ďmost liberals are from another planetí, because some liberal politicians actually did take a stand for justice and for the importance of the principle of the guarantee of the right to life in this case, refusing to bring this down to the level of playing politics with a personís life on the line, whereas there were some conservative politicians who did just the opposite and placed political maneuverings and considerations above what should have been the paramount issue under consideration, the Constitutionally guaranteed right to life of a fellow human being. They too are from another planet, as far as I am concerned. My sincerest apologies.

ARH, youíre right, 911 didnít wake us up and apparently this hasnít either. I plan to work to change that.

And I agree that it is hypocritical to be sacrificing our sons and daughters on the battlefield to ensure the human rights of others, when here at home there is seemingly very little political will, or courage, to protect those same rights of American citizens, particularly the weakest among us.

I am still proud to be an American, but I am ashamed of our leaders. No one, not even the president, is bound to honor a court order arrived at through blatant violations of the law or an order at odds with the law and the moral or natural law. But that is also something that we can work to change.

[This message has been edited by Denise (04-03-2005 11:29 AM).]

Denise
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213 posted 04-03-2005 02:54 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Here is a link that you may want to bookmark to access news on the latest investigative efforts and happenings regarding Terri's situation that, sadly, led to her death.
http://www.theempirejournal.com/

Denise
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214 posted 04-03-2005 11:25 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise


Finally, a poll that asked the right question. What a difference the truth makes in the outcome.

quote:
Another Zogby question hits directly on Terri's circumstances.

"If a disabled person is not terminally ill, not in a coma, and not being kept alive on life support, and they have no written directive, should or should they not be denied food and water," the poll asked.
A whopping 79 percent said the patient should not have food and water taken away while just 9 percent said yes.


http://www.lifenews.com/bio891.html
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215 posted 04-04-2005 12:02 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

This country needs another 911 wake up call, to open their eyes!(no, looks as though this one didn't help, or we would not have witnessed this unlawful act of injustice)'''


----------


With out a doubt thats the worst thing I have ever read!!! and it has NOTHING to do with this case.....how shameful a thought!
jbouder
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216 posted 04-04-2005 01:53 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

quote:
This country needs another 911 wake up call, to open their eyes!


No, it just needs to stop pushing the rights of the disabled to the margins of our civilization.  Disability is a fact of the human condition - treating it as an unwanted drain on resources dehumanizes the disabled and diminishes the humanity of both the disabled and the nondisabled.  A "wake-up call" won't suffice - what must happen is a systematic change of common attitudes toward disability and a willingness to go to bat for those who, for whatever reason, cannot go to bat for themselves.

Jim
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217 posted 04-04-2005 03:30 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I have mailed the sympathy card for Terri's family!

No, Erica, I absolutely do not believe in your comment regarding that "this country needs another 911 wake up call." I actually find that type of thought offensive to me, similar to the thinking that got Ward Churchill into such controversy when he said the only way everyone would understand, in his view, that some America foreign policies were repressive regimes in the minds of others across the world, would there to be more 9/11 like attacks on our own soil.

I absolutely disagree. Look, about 4 in 5 Americans believed it was wrong for Congress to intervene in the manner it did (like I do), while a majority of Americans also believed they would have made the same decision of a feeding tube removal in their own situation like that (I wouldn't).

The important thing to notice here is that there is approximately a 20% spread between those who believe it was wrong for Congress to intervene and those who believe in the decision to have the feeding tube removed. That means something to me here in the overall potential her survival case may have had.

Even there, we may be in the minority view here regarding the feeding tube debacle, but I'm inspired by the symbolic display of millions who pulled for and supported Terri in this unfortunate tug-of-war on her life, and despite the disagreements in every pocket, I believe that most believe beyond the differences we must see to it this type of instance doesn't happen again and together we can reach beyond the dissent of Schiavo and work to save other lives like hers.

I have faith enough have already awakened to understand the importance and dignity behind the rights of the disabled and handicapped.

*

*

Denise, your apology is accepted. I will add though that I just don't believe this sort of "you're from another planet" behavior ever helps anyone, and certainly wouldn't have ever helped Terri if she were still alive, as well as those who are facing similar fates right now.

Look, I can admit and anyone can agree I paint negative portrayals of Bush. I truly believe he has done more wrong than he has done good, and the nation has been going in the wrong direction under him. But I also have never made inflating generalizations that all conservatives must treat Bush like a messiah and such just because most vote his way in the election, thus must be from another galaxy or such. I don't believe that and never will, for we are all unique and we are a lot deeper and individual than many often forget to think.

I don't agree with the Democratic Party on many things as well, which make me not a Democrat, but an independent. I believe they've been too soft on corporate crime, they supported the war in Iraq before coming to their senses more, though many Democrats in the House still voted for the $82 billion resolution. And they just don't make many courageous stands for progressive values and such which most Americans want, such as environmental protection, a living wage and funding into alternative fuels.

Just because two Democratic senators from Hawaii happened to have went the wrong way on the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge vote, which was very troubling to me, doesn't automatically make me believe they must be from another planet. Just because a number of Democrats signed that troubling class action bill to make it harder for individuals to ever sue corporations for wrong-doings and injustice in the workforce, which was beyond troubling, doesn't automatically make it so.

I believe there are many wonderful Republicans and conservatives out there, like my grandparents. And even among those I have general disagreement with I believe there is a human and spiritual connection between us all and it is essential we try and explore that sort of relation.

That's just what I was trying to get across in reaction to that comment. I just don't think that sort of comment really helps advancing these sensitive issues in a way we can be prepared to find unison. I'm a more patient person, but there are other liberals out there who are not so much so, and that sort of comment would shy them away from wanting to cooperate because they may perceive the comment as being the impatient bi-polar.

(angel friendship hugs) I hope what I said made sense! Thanks, dearest friend!



*

*

There's one other thing that hasn't necessarily been brought up here that I find extremely relevant.

The Schiavo protests outside the hospice that were televised.

I was absolutely gladdened to see their voices were being heard, that their protests were being televised. Especially considering, according to poll results, that they were representing the minority opinion on this sensitive issue that urgently wanted their message to be received and hope to make a difference. I cried in warmth seeing that happen.

And my response to that is, "Let this be example to how all sorts of protests should be televised."

I hope you can see now what I was arguing before about the way the anti-war protests and such were virtually completely shut out of the major networks and cable news outlets, with not ONE interview with a protester being conducted on the second anniversary of the war in Iraq, which tens of thousands of Americans went out and protested the invasion, with tens of thousands more worldwide.

Imagine, if you will, that none of those protests that were fortunately televised weren't. You'd feel rejected, isolated, pushed aside, even when you believe you speak with a true conscience so many others can relate to.

That's exactly how I've been feeling, despite many polls now revealing tha a majority disapprove of the handling of the war in Iraq, of the media continuing to flush all dissenting voices out of the lens.

Whether the protest is anti-war, pro-life, pro-choice, you name it, all these protests SHOULD be aired in the manner the Schiavo protests were, for we are the people, and the megaphone must return back to democracy and restricted not to "officialdom".

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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218 posted 04-04-2005 06:36 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

I didn't say that :P

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219 posted 04-04-2005 06:40 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The people holding vigil and protesting outside the hospice weren't the minority voice, Noah. You may have missed the results of the Zogby Poll, the only published poll that I know of that actually asked the right question as it pertained to Terri's situation and circumstances. Here it is again for you:

quote:
Another Zogby question hits directly on Terri's circumstances.

"If a disabled person is not terminally ill, not in a coma, and not being kept alive on life support, and they have no written directive, should or should they not be denied food and water," the poll asked.
A whopping 79 percent said the patient should not have food and water taken away while just 9 percent said yes.


http://www.lifenews.com/bio891.html
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220 posted 04-05-2005 12:43 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Noah my friend, you Took her words out of context.

Juju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

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221 posted 04-05-2005 01:50 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I do wholeheartedly apologize if I took your comment out of context, my friend. It was not intentional if I have accidentally done so.

But I believe it's important to add, however, you must be careful in how you phrase out points with 9/11 in particular attached to it. There's just so much controversy eclipsing that term alone wherever it is stamped, and when you phrase it in terms of "this country needs another 9/11 wake-up call", many may misunderstand or misinterpret you and may feel offended.

And I wasn't directly comparing your comment to Ward Churchill's, by the way. I brought up Churchill because that's how his huge controversy surrounding him and the University of Colorado began. He argued in his essay, "Some People Push Back" that it's no suprise 9/11 happened because others in the world felt repressed under some American-led foreign regimes and that encouraged repressive behavior that motivated the attacks, calling those who encouraged those repressive foreign policies "little Eichmanns" and then saying that Americans in general won't ever stand up and protest these sort of foreign policies unless more 9/11's happen.

You see, though Churchill and his opinions are not to my taste personally, it's no suprise that his words and arguments were taken out of context very much, with many pundits saying because Churchill made that argument that in conclusion, Churchill wants more 9/11 attacks to happen in America and such. On a topic so sensitive as 9/11, anything can instantly become a headline.

(hugs) I apologize if I took your comment the wrong way. I only ask for you to be careful is all, only trying to help here.



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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222 posted 04-05-2005 02:00 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

That's correct, Denise. Thanks for sharing that! I do believe those results.

By minority voice, I meant regarding the debate if Congress and the president should have intervened or not, as well as if others would have had their spouse's feeding tube removed in their own situation. In those instances, we are currently the minority.

Sorry for the misunderstanding there, Denise! (hugs)

Indeed, however, that still doesn't shift the importance of all voices in being represented in our mainstream media.

Those protests that were televised during every 15-minute update on Headline News and earned slots during the nighlty cable broadcasts, THAT'S exactly how I wish all other protests could be treated in terms of coverage. Is it too much to ask for five minutes every hour or so?

Is it too much to ask one day of the year (March 19) to have those anti-war protests televised in a format similar to the protests outside the Florida hospice? Is it too much to ask that, even if only for the day on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade that both pro-life and pro-choice protests could be represented on the airwaves?

That's all I'm arguing here.

I'm very happy that all those who pulled for Terri's life had their voices heard and were represented much of last week.

This may be blind hope, but I do hope that perhaps some lesson has been learned from all of this how true it is that dissent completes democracy.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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223 posted 04-05-2005 03:22 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

quote:
I do hope that perhaps some lesson has been learned from all of this ...

Noah, in several ways, the answer is "yes".

Today at lunch with a dear friend, with "very old" in-laws, explained to me that "finally" her in-laws are learning that they can't go on much longer without getting their affairs in order. Not just as to Wills, but directives such as Terri did not have, as well. While that's the barest of things many of us learned, there is much more that we as a nation learned as a whole. And not just about one person.
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224 posted 04-05-2005 10:27 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Noah, polls are only as good as the questions asked. I'm sure if the polls had asked "should a mentally disabled woman who is not on life support, is not terminally ill, is not brain dead, has no written directive, has a guardian who has severe and several conflicts of interests who has petitioned a judge to withdraw her food and water, and a judge who has broken several statutes to be able to arrive at his decision for the withdrawal, should the Congress intervene to insure her 14th Amendment right to life?" I'm sure the numbers would be different.


Yes, we've learned quite a lot, Karilea, and I can already see the hand of God bringing much good out of this.

For one thing, educating people needs to be done about so many issues. Issues such as the promotion of "living wills", which are actually focused toward death and are supported and promoted by euthanasia proponents. The wordings tend to be vague enough in most cases to leave them open to interpretation. And they usually lump "conditions" in with terminal illness, so you could end up being starved to death, legally, even if you have a non-life threatening condition or disability. You may mean one thing, your family may think you meant another, but in the end, it is the doctor's interpretation that matters, if you can't physically speak for yourself. Thanks to a "living will", he overrides your family in that case. And if it is the doctor's interpretation that you didn't want something in a particular situation, you're not going to get it, including food and hydration, even if you are only disabled and not in a terminal illness situation. The wordings can trip you up and your understanding of a word is probably not a lawyer's or doctor's understanding. If you aren't careful, you could be signing your own death warrant. And relieving society (insurance companies, medical institutions, the government) of the "burden" of you. Be very careful what you sign.

A much better, and safer vehicle, is something called the "Will to Live" which can be downloaded from the National Right to Life site and can also be obtained from Catholic churches. They are geared toward life, and are worded more to what most of us understand (incorrectly) "living wills" to mean, removing extraordinary life support measures when death is imminent, when we are already in the end stages of death and the extraordinary measures just prolong the dying. And you can state that nutrition would only be withheld if your body could no longer process it, and request that hydration be continued to prevent undue suffering.

We also need to reducate people about the workings of the government, how it is supposed to work, and how easily corrupted from its principles it can become.

People also need to take a hard look at the notion that the "rule of law" must be upheld to the extent that innocent people are put to death at the behest of a corrupt court. How far have we fallen? Didn't even Jesus admonish the Pharisees for their meticulous adherence to the law to the extent of even "tithing mint, dill and cumin, but neglectling the weightier provisions of the law, such as mercy and justice and truth"? If we had courageous leaders back in the 60's that went against a State court order, and sent in the National Guard to escort black children safely into what had always been a whites only school, in violation of the state court order, why did we not have courageous leaders to send in the National Guard to save an innocent disabled person from the cruel and inhumane order of death by starvation and dehydration? Does anyone seriously believe that the local police would have engaged in a shoot-out with the military?

Something that is considered cruel and inhumane for animals and criminals was allowed to happen to a fellow human being, with the entire world looking on at the agonized pleas for mercy from her family, and to the extent that she was even denied the normal hospice comfort measures of ice chips and a wet sponge to alleviate her suffering, all by court order. I can't get my mind around any of it. It has pierced me to the core of my being. It has sent me crashing to my knees before God. And I can't stop crying.

The mother was denied her request to the judge and her son-in-law, first the very life of her daughter, and to add insult to injury, after her death and before the cremation, a lock of her daughter's hair, or a small portion of her ashes. DENIED.

Many issues have to be looked at, evaluated and reevaluated. Laws need changing. Corrupt judges and lawyers and politicians need to answer for their actions.

Foremost, we need God's wisdom to navigate this treacherous world. We are facing the increasing devaluation of the sanctity of life, with an increasing emphasis on the quality of life. We are slowly but surely becoming brainwashed to the philosphy that it isn't life that matters, but its quality, and if a person lacks in some way what the norm has become in terms of the current definition of quality, then that person's life is not worthy of protection, not worth fighting for, not worth dying for. In essence, in our thinking they become non-human. We are quickly forgetting our responsibility of the strong defending the weak and we are becoming more like the inferior animal world where it is survival of the fittest.

The euthenasia proponents are cunning and frame this as an issue of choice. But they in effect are taking choice away from us when they lobby for laws that favor their philosphies and push policies in hospitals that give the authority over life and death to the doctors and remove that authority from the patient and the patient's family members.

Perhaps what needs to be done is to figure out a way to write the laws whereby the euthanasia propenents can only kill each other and leave the rest of us alone.
 
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