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Denise
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0 posted 2005-02-12 11:23 AM


What rights do we really have in this country when even the most basic, the right to life, is not honored and protected and fought for? First it was the unborn, now it is the 'inconvenient' sick in our society. If this woman is allowed to be killed by judicial decree, then every other liberty that we fight for is in vain. We might as well just give up and give in to the enemies without and within. Because our liberty will just be a farce.

This is the slippery slope that was created by Roe vs. Wade.

When will we wake up?


quote:
Ironically, while media focus on evacuations aimed at saving lives, the Florida Supreme Court ruled 7-0 last week, that a helpless young Florida woman should die. Her name is Terri Schindler-Schiavo.

I take that back. Not just die. Be killed.

That is what's involved when a person is denied food and water. That person will die a prolonged, painful and horrible death. According to the black-robed justices of the Florida high court, that's exactly what should happen to Terri.

It will be done for a sole and not-so-subtle reason: to cause her to die.

Memo to the court: If this murder isn't prevented, Terri's blood will be on your hands.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40641


quote:
The Schindlers are heartened by Scantlin's recovery and are expected to appeal.

"In light of the miraculous awakening of Miss Sarah Scantlin in Kansas and the success of the new brainwave test reported in the New York Times this week, my daughter deserves to have this test before she is starved to death by judicial decree," Bob Schindler said.

Dobson agrees.

"Mental disabilities do not damage a person's worth – the preciousness of life is not defined by one's abilities. Those who suffer a disabling injury are entitled to the same right to life as we all are. Those seeking to take away Mrs. Schiavo's right to life should have second thoughts after hearing Sarah Scantlin's story." .


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42827

© Copyright 2005 Denise - All Rights Reserved
LoveBug
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1 posted 2005-02-12 12:31 PM


Are we going to go back to putting the elderly out to sea?

Seriously, this burns me up.. my cousin was born without being able to walk, and he has limited use of his hands. He is, however, a wonderful singer, drummer, and the pastor of a church. He leads people and touches so many, but the doctors said he wouldn't live to be 5 years old. He is married and has two healthy sons as well.

Even if people don't believe in God, they can't look at these things and think that science is an absolute answer. There is something we don't understand about these cases... every life has a purpose, and it is NOT our right to decide that a life has lost its worth.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Brad
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2 posted 2005-02-12 03:02 PM


I don't know the facts of this case yet, but the question remains. If a right cannot be exercised, whose responsibility is it to assist in exercising that right?

How far are you willing to take this?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you guys. A person should be kept alive. The question in the back of my head is always, how much money are you willing to spend for your beliefs?

Denise
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3 posted 2005-02-12 05:05 PM


Brad, in this particular case a jury awarded something in excess of a million dollars for her rehabilitation and lifelong care.

Shortly afterwards her husband ceased her rehabilitive therapy, forbade even minimal health care, such as dental care and cleaning and the administration of antibiotics, etc., and transferred her to a custodial nursing home, owned by a powerful figure in the euthenasia movement, who is a relative of the lawyer that the husband hired, and a friend of the judge, or vice-versa, I don't remember whom is exactly connected to whom and how, but there is a connection between all three. The courts have never even allowed a court appointed attorney to look out for her interests in any of the hearings.

Most of the money that had been awarded for her care has been spent on attorney's fees in the husband's legal fight to have her starved to death, and her parents are on the verge of bankruptcy due to their court battles to prevent his goal of killing their daughter.

She's not on machines to keep her alive. This is not a case of a machine breathing for someone or a machine pumping someone's heart. She has a simple feeding tube.

The husband remains the legal guardian despite the fact that he has a conflict of interest, aside from the money, in that he long ago became involved with another woman and has had two children by her. They are living together as if they were husband and wife, and despite the mounting evidence that suggests the husband was possibly responsible for Terry's loss of consciousness in the first place (evidence of spousal abuse, x-rays of broken bones, evidence of injuries not consistent with someone simply passing out and being derprived of oxygen) that the courts won't look into and that the police won't investigate, I guess due to the passage of time).

How much would I be willing to spend? Every last penny available to me, just as I am sure that you would if this were your daughter. For what is money compared to human life and the protection of our right to it?


Capricious
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4 posted 2005-02-12 07:53 PM


Looks to me like the money to maintain this woman has already been provided by a previous legal settlement. I am curious why the girl's parents have not filed for divorce on her behalf citing adultery on the part of the husband.  

Conflict of interest indeed.  I presume that the remainder of the monies awarded for his wife's care will default to the husband in the event of her death.

Has the family exhausted all appeals?  This is a death sentence, as surely as if she were on death row, especially in the absence of a living will.

Denise, I will have to respectfully disagree with you regarding your blaming this case on Roe v Wade.  The circumstance of a mother with child is a unique one, where the burden of childbirth cannot be shifted to another.  In this case, the woman could be remitted to the care of her parents, or even a state ward.  She is not inseparably connected to her husband, neither is she physically dependent upon him specifically for her survival (anyone may administer her feedings).

No one's rights but hers are being violated here, although I am certain her husband feels some "right" to her money that he is so doggedly determined to starve her to death to acquire.

If it were my decision, I'd have the husband arrested for attempted murder.  That a panel of judges have chosen to assist him in this undertaking is absolutely outrageous.  

Denise
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5 posted 2005-02-12 10:29 PM


Capricious,

The parents have filed to become her guardian, and if that weren't acceptable to the court, they had told the court to then make her a ward of the state. The court has smacked down their every request, even the request that she have an attorney to represent her interests in the multitudinous hearings, and the request to review the spousal abuse evidence.

The court has also denied their filings regarding the husband's suitability to continue being her guardian due to his evident conflict of interest. It seems to me that the fix is in on this with the judge, the euthenasia advocate, the husband and his attorney (who is also a euthenasia advocate).

They have also appealed to the husband to divorce their daughter, grant them guardianship, even with the stipulation that he can even keep the rest of the money. They don't want the money, they want their daughter. He turned them down. It seems he will not be satisfied with anything less than her death.

They can't file for divorce on her behalf I guess because the husband is the guardian in the eyes of the law, the one who calls all the shots and makes all the decisions, not them. The parents have no legal standing to speak for her or to do anything on her behalf in the eyes of the law, to my understanding. Maybe that is different from state to state, I don't know.

Of course there are differences between this and abortion, but there is a similarity...the devaluing of human life in the eyes of society. That is the slippery slope. It started with abortion. Now in one country (can't remember which one) doctors  have the right to kill babies and children, ones already born, if they are sick or disabled and don't meet some 'standard of life' quality. And in this country I've heard that euthenasia is practiced on the sick elderly more than most might realize. Keep slowly upping the morphine dose until they stop breathing (morphine depresses the repiratory function).

I guess that is sort of like putting them out to sea, LoveBug, just a little less obvious, even viewed as compassionate if they happen to be in a lot of pain from something. Of course, I don't think you'd have many doctors publicly admitting to this practice due to fear of prosecution in some places. Seems like they wouldn't have a problem with these Florida judges, though.

Ron
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6 posted 2005-02-12 11:37 PM


quote:
Of course there are differences between this and abortion, but there is a similarity...the devaluing of human life in the eyes of society. That is the slippery slope. It started with abortion.

LOL. That particular slippery slope, the devaluing of human life, started somewhere back around Abel and Cain, Denise.

LoveBug
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7 posted 2005-02-13 09:33 AM


I have a cold and a headache. Should I blow my brains out?

Every life is full of pain, and some much more than others. However, who decides how much is too much? Who has that right? Who says that I DON'T have the right to blow my brains out over a cold... common sense tells you that I shouldn't, right?

What about a living woman? She is unable to speak or interact. So are many autistic children. Do they deserve to die? She can't walk or stand on her own. Neither can my cousin, the pastor of a church and father of two. Does he deserve to die? Are their lives worth any less than ours?

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Denise
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8 posted 2005-02-13 01:05 PM


quote:
That particular slippery slope, the devaluing of human life, started somewhere back around Abel and Cain



One of the differences I see though, Ron, aside from it being the first murder of passion (committed in the throes of anger produced by jealousy), is that Cain's act was not enshrined as an acceptable practice in the ridding oneself of an incovenience. It was murder and was viewed and recorded as murder, and as an unacceptable behavior.

The slippery slope comes into play when something previously not condoned by society, and the laws of a society, becomes acceptable, and then from that, even more things that were previously unacceptable become acceptable. It's a snowball effect.

From the decree of judges that States could not pass laws against abortion, we started with abortions being acceptable in the first trimester only back in the 70's, and then 25 years later we had degenerated to the point of partial birth abortions, that are performed at or around the expected time of delivery...doctors just have to reach in to turn the baby around to ensure that the head is inside the womb when they kill it with their instruments, then it isn't considered murder, otherwise it is. Same baby, same healthy condition, same viability, just a different positioning of the baby's head makes the difference between an accepted surgical procedure and murder.

And now one country (Denmark, I think) has legalized the killing of infants and children who are in one way or another disabled, physically or mentally. And now we in this country are at the point where judges are decreeing that a woman can be legally starved to death because she is brain damaged and on no life-supporting machines whatsover other than a feeding tube.

In my opinion, this is what happens when a society forsakes the revealed standards of God (that God says in the Bible that He reveals to every person, innately, we don't have to be taught them), and prefer instead to turn away from that knowledge that God has implanted within and become our own gods, to do what seems expedient in our own eyes (relativistic morality).

quote:
What about a living woman? She is unable to speak or interact. So are many autistic children. Do they deserve to die? She can't walk or stand on her own. Neither can my cousin, the pastor of a church and father of two. Does he deserve to die? Are their lives worth any less than ours?


Sadly, some people seem to think so, LoveBug.

But this particular woman does interact. Her eyes follow people and moving objects. She reacts to sounds, she can sit in a chair. She attempts to communicate by making gutteral sounds. She smiles, laughs and cries. She isn't the 'vegetable' that some try to make her out to be. She is brain-damaged, yes, and operates at a different level of consciousness, and several doctors have testified on her behalf that there is every reason to expect her to improve, with the therapy that the jury awarded money was intended to provide for her. But the courts keep ruling in favor of the husband's position, and the doctor's hired by his lawyer that depict her as a hopeless vegetable, despite the obvious evidence to the contrary.

Marge Tindal
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9 posted 2005-02-13 03:21 PM


Denise~
You already know how this case breaks my heart~

While there are MANY of us who have expressed outrage at what is happening to Terri ... it seems that all pleas for Terri's care and well-being, and the right to CONTINUE to live, have fallen on a court of deaf ears !

It just tears us up to see that the judicial system would deny Terri's parents the right to care for their daughter for all her future needs~

Doesn't make sense ... not even to attorney's and judges I've discussed this with~

Many of us are still working, trying to use our voices to get the right ear to HEAR our outrage ...~

This morning the pastor of my church led us in prayerful reminder that Terri is very much in need of all the prayers we can muster~

Miracle ?  That looks like what it's going to take to spare her life~

LoveBug
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10 posted 2005-02-13 05:09 PM


"Cain's act was not enshrined as an acceptable practice in the ridding oneself of an incovenience."

Exactly, and I also agree with your comparison to abortion. It shows the trend in this nation, and it's frightening.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Denise
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11 posted 2005-02-14 08:41 PM


It does seem that a miracle is what is needed in the face of this utter disregard and disdain for the sanctity of human life by these judges and attorneys who would sacrifice a human live on their agenda altar.

Yes, it is frightening and very sad. And none of us are safe from similar situations if they set a precedent with this case.


hush
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12 posted 2005-02-14 11:49 PM


I don't see this so much as a sanctity of human life issue as a simple issue of rights.

If she did not have any advance directives written (IE, a DNR (do not resucisstate) order) she has a full right to all life saving procedures. Now, in reading the timeline on the official family website, it said that her husband did get her DNR status- however, I'm not sure, legally that being a DNR would in any way require/allow taking away procedures you've already had done, like her feeding tube. There is a DNR comfort care- nothing is done to treat a terminally ill patient, including feeding tubes, antibiotics, etc.

But if there is no clear indication that Terri did not want to live this way, it would, legally and humanistically, make sense to err on the side of life.

Now, on the issue of eauthanasia... I work in a nursing home. I watched my grandmother die, and I recently saw my mother struggle through a long period of disability that ended in death. I fully support the right of the individual to choose a painless and dignified death over a prolonged one. Key word- that individual, not their family or spouse. You know what else? I see cancer all the time... and I don't believe for one second that it is cruel to provide palliative pain relief based more on effectiveness than safe dosage range in the end stages of cancer or other progressive and terminal conditions. I think if the individual had agreed to it beforehand (as most will have had time to think about before becoming that severely ill) it is a humane and decent thing to do. I'd rather go painlessly in my sleep than with a drowning sensation because there is a tumor the size of a football in my lungs.

I think that the euthanasia camp can go too far- but then, so can the right-to-life (any life, at all costs) camp.

Denise
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13 posted 2005-02-18 07:44 PM


And that's the rub here, hush, where the line has been crossed by her husband with the DNR comfort care order. She is not terminally ill. She is disabled. And the reason the jury award was for such a huge amount was because experts testified that she would have to be cared for, to some extent, even with rehabilitative therapy, for the rest of her life and that her life expectancy was projected to be similar to that of a non-disabled person.

It is a dangerous precedent that these judges are trying to establish with this case, making it legal to withhold nourishment from a disabled person, starving them, somone who doesn't meet some 'quality of life' test, but with an otherwise normal life expectancy.

It appears that they may be successful. Very frightening, but more than that, very, very sad.


Brad
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14 posted 2005-02-18 08:23 PM


To be honest, this case baffles me. She's been in a coma for 13 years, there are some reports that she is on life support (it was a blog so perhaps inaccurate).

Nevertheless, there's no reason to believe she's there.

Yet, given the outpouring of support for this case at least on the internet, I don't understand why the guardianship and responsibility simply aren't given to someone else?

From a secular point of view, if she's not there it doesn't hurt anyone to keep the body going (as long as you're willing to pay for it.)


Denise
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15 posted 2005-02-19 01:57 PM


Actually much of the mainstream media that have even featured the story have also said that she is on life support, which of course, to most people means machines breathing for her and keeping her heart beating, and not merely a feeding tube. I guess food can be considered life support, since without it we die.

This is a misconception that the husband's attorney keeps alive and well. Ignorance fosters his agenda. It's much more palatable to compassionately "pull the plug" to put someone out of their misery, than it is to admit that what you are actually attemtping to do is starve someone to death, creating misery and a slow painful death.

He was on Greta VanSusteran the other night calling on all those who love the Constitution to stand by Terri's "right to die" and to stand against those who oppose her right to die who will be holding prayer vigils and demonstrations, characterizing them as extremists (and by implication haters of the Constitution?) What these "extremists" oppose is her being allowed to be starved to death by her husband, with the sanction of the court. And I don't find a "right to die" in the Constitution anyway, but some lawyers and judges seem to find anything they want to find in the Constitution.

But I do think that she is 'there' to some extent. She is operating at some level of consciousness. Science just doesn't have all the answers.

In my opinion, guardianship hasn't been turned over to someone else because the husband and the courts want her dead. I think the courts want to set a precedent for euthenasia in cases such as this, and as for the husband...I don't know, maybe he doesn't want to take the chance that she might "come out of it" some day and start speaking?

Juju
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16 posted 2005-02-19 03:32 PM


If they honor this, than suicide is technically legal.

Convinience is a common theme to such taboo.

Juju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

hush
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17 posted 2005-02-19 03:54 PM


'Nevertheless, there's no reason to believe she's there.'

If I'm not mistaken, she can respond (in a limited degree) to her mothers commands, such as to blink, or smile. I've seen videos featuring her, both on TV and in school, and there is every reason to believe she's "there." Even someone who stares at a ceiling all day without the ability to move or speak could still be thinking somewhere inside. I care for the elderly and disabled, and I have known people who can do no more than shift their gaze to look at me about once a week, and people who can't even do that. Sure, we can't prove that they're "there," but we can't prove that they aren't except in the case of persistent vegitative states. I mean, is someone with demetia who keeps repeating "The cats are here! The cats are here!" really "there?" Should we kill them, too?

Sorry, that makes me sound a little more extreme/determined on this issue than I really am. The point isn't whether you are there or not- the point is whether you wanted to be kept alive or not, and whether, should your heart stop, you would or would not want to be recussitated. A feeding tube, for the most part, is a standard form of life support for someone who will be disabled long-term. Unless she specifically stated beforehand (and in this case, to someone other than her husband who is suspected of putting her in this condition) that she would not want to be alive in these conditions, it is immoral not to. And while a DNR-CC code status will allow for prevention of the placement of a feeding tube, I don't really see how it can be legal (or in any way humane) to take it out and, yes, as Denise says, allow someone to starve to death. Assuming that the ill, elderly, and comatose cannot feel pain is, in my opinion, just as bad as assuming that being black means someone is property. Which, incidentally, is why I support DNR orders, as well as euthanasia... when the DNR is chosen either by the patient or a caring family member who clearly has no ulterior motives, or when the euthanasia is chosen by the patient.

If he really wants Terri dead in a humane way, he should try tfor a lethal injection. Still immoral, but far less miserable a death, IMO.

hush
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18 posted 2005-02-19 03:58 PM


Oh, to get back to Denise-

Someone who suffers a stroke is not terminally ill. But if all I could do was lay in bed all day with contracted arms, unable to speak or write to express myself, and unable to eat... I would hope my family would be kind and unselfish enough to recognize that when it's time for me to go... it's time for me to go, not to be CPR'ed back for more suffering.

Denise
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19 posted 2005-02-21 12:11 PM


Those are decisions, hush, that are personal preference and conscience issues that can vary greatly from one person to the next and should only be acted upon by written direction of the patient, through means of a "Living Will" or "Will to Live" document. Absent that, the family and the medical and legal system should always act to protect the life of the patient.

Some excerpts from an article:

quote:
Terri Schiavo is alive, brain damaged from a mysterious injury 15 years ago in her apartment with her husband present. She cannot swallow. Her husband, Michael, has refused her therapy that might wean her from the feeding tube.

Therapy that might mean Terri could talk again. Perhaps she could tell what happened that night she mysteriously fell ill. Perhaps she could explain the full body x-rays that show a variety of broken and healed bones in her body from injuries no one knows about.

Perhaps that might explain why legal moves kept the x-rays hidden for years. Perhaps it might also explain why the one judge, George Greer, who has consistently ruled against Terri all these years, refused to allow the x-rays introduced as evidence in any of the many hearings on the case.

Perhaps. I'm just asking.

But time is short. Terri may begin "processing" tomorrow, unless there's a legal miracle – or any other kind – to stop what her father calls "judicial murder."

Who gets "processed"? Maybe the person is old, not necessarily sick, just old – too old. Perhaps young, too young to be worth spending time, effort and expense to bring to health. Perhaps sick, requiring "too much" money or time or bed space to heal. Perhaps handicapped, so the person can't live a "normal" life – whatever that means.
Michael Schiavo wants Terri's feeding tube removed. That will kill her. She will die a prolonged, painful death from starvation and dehydration. He says she'd want that, but he has no written proof. He just says it, and has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in the legal system to get his wife dead.


If the legal system kills Terri Schiavo, none of us is safe. The system is big and powerful and, if it wants you dead, you will be.

Read it and weep.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42957

Denise
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20 posted 2005-02-21 09:04 PM


I am sitting here crying reading the latest round of court filings and denied appeals.

I just don't understand how these courts and judges can get away with this. Are judges above the laws that they are supposed to be interpreting?  How can they blatantly ignore the statutes that are already on the books in Florida for the protection of the incapacitated like Terri? Why in her case are they simply ignoring those laws that are supposed to guarantee those protections?

Why can't somebody do something to hold them accountable to those statutes and prevent them from doing this? What law are they interpreting that allows them to decree that an innocent person can be starved to death? They wouldn't allow this to happen to a convicted criminal on death row. Why is she not entitled to the same due process as a criminal?

Her husband has stated his intention to issue the order to stop feeding and hydrating Terri at 1 pm tomorrow.

Why can't somebody do something? I don't understand it. I just don't understand it.

  

Denise
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21 posted 2005-02-23 09:09 PM


The latest news is that a Stay has been issued today until Friday while Judge Greer considers whether he will allow medical tests to try to determine Terri's brain activity level, since new testing breakthroughs have recently been developed.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43006

Another commentary on this heartbreaking situation:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42991

Contact information if you wish to let your voice be heard on Terri's behalf:

Governor Jeb Bush
Office of The Governor Florida Capitol Building, PL-05
Tallahassee, FL 32399-0001
(850) 488-7146
(850) 488-4441
jeb.bush@myflorida.com

Attorney General
Charlie Crist
Office of Attorney General
State of Florida
The Capitol
Tallahassee, FL 32399-1050
(850) 414-3990
Fax: (850) 487-2564
ag@oag.state.fl.us

State Attorney
Bernie McCabe
14250 49th Street
North Clearwater, FL 33762
(727) 464-6221

LOCAL MEDIA
Mr. Bill Levesque, The St. Pete Times -- levesque@sptimes.com
The St. Pete Times -- letters@sptimes.com
The Tampa Tribune -- tribletters@tampatrib.com
970 WLFA AM Radio -- news@970wfla.com

Mailing Addresses:
Tampa Tribune
Letters to the Editor
P.O. Box 191
Tampa, FL 33601-4405
          
St. Pete Times
Letters to the Editor
P.O. Box 1121
St. Pete, FL 33731

Please pray for Terri's protection and for strength for her family during this emotionally trying time, and also for a change of heart for her husband.

Thank you.



Denise
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22 posted 2005-02-23 09:57 PM


And here is another commentary:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/terencejeffrey/tj20050223.shtml


Huan Yi
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Waukegan
23 posted 2005-02-24 12:34 PM



Again, I can not reconcile a professed faith
in a worthwhile afterlife and the fierce opposition to letting someone
in such a condition as is Terri Schiavo, (who I assume as no great
burden of sins to carry), die. . .   It seems to me to betray a disbelief
at the core.

hush
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since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
24 posted 2005-02-24 08:38 AM


"If the legal system kills Terri Schiavo, none of us is safe. The system is big and powerful and, if it wants you dead, you will be.

Read it and weep."

Well, if they do go through with this, I think it's a terribly unfair decisiion, but the idea that courts are going to somehow look through medical records and start killing any of us that are inconvenient is just silly. It's not like the courts themselves went looking this- it was brought to them. So maybe the moral here should be to worry about what your next of kin might say or want- and never leave it to chance- get your living will.

Mistletoe Angel
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25 posted 2005-02-24 01:41 PM




I apologize for my late input into this thread. I truly care and am outraged by this from the bottom of my heart, but just have had difficulty expressing my emotions to this issue, because it is all such a  tragic mess.

What troubles me most of all is how the media presents Terri in the news updates as a weak, motionless, almost dead like a fish woman with her mouth gaping open and her eyes frozen wide. I am just angered by that. This is NOT, I REPEAT NOT, how Terri physically feels and acts now in company with her parents and loved ones. There's overwhelming evidence, according to her parents and others, that she is able to communicate to her parents, talking fairly fluently, able to move, etc. Look, no one can argue that she has a condition and she is handicapped to some degree. But I for one CAN NOT TOLERATE OR ACCEPT this pulling the plug on her life, especially when her loved ones won't stand for it.

Isn't there some way our outrage can actually be organized together in fashion? Isn't there some petition out there supposedly like the hunting of seals one anyone can sign to ship off to these Florida legislators and let them know once and for all America will not stand for the death and punishment of our handicapped citizens?

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

hush
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26 posted 2005-02-24 08:00 PM


Is euthanasia necessarily a punishment?

Once again, I think this is more about legal rights- the legal right to choose death or life- than it is about human right to life.

Keeping someone alive might be just as much a punishment. The problem is, if they haven't already told us, and they can't tell us now, we just don't know. Suffering is subjective.

Denise
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27 posted 2005-02-24 08:50 PM


John, I think most people who believe strongly in an afterlife also believe strongly that the life we are given here on earth, though temporary, and often times less than 'perfect', is a precious gift endowed by God. It is also one of our protected rights under the Constitution. I don't think it is contradictory to believe in and look forward to the afterlife, when the time comes, while at the same time cherishing the life we have in the here and now.

I think we will find ourselves where we don't want to be if we allow the courts (or someone who will benefit in some way by our demise) to start deciding whose life is of value and whose isn't. I don't think that is a judgment that we are capable of making, and therefore shouldn't make, that a disabled person would be better off in the afterlife. We aren't qualified to play God. And why stop there? Maybe the poor and disadvantaged would enjoy the afterlife a lot more than their sub-existence here on earth. Should we deny them food and water, "for their own good"? I'm sure you can see the potential for abuse when we set ourselves up as judgers of the quality of life of others.

Hush, but I think a very dangerous precedent could be set if Terri is allowed to be legally starved to death by the courts.

Not too long ago it would have been unthinkable for the 'plug to be pulled' without a written advance directive by the patient. Now it is common place for next of kin, or even a doctor without the knowledge or consent of the family, even without something in writing, to make those decisions.

I can see it happening in the not too distant future that even if someone has something like a "Will to Live" document specifically outlining their wish to live under certain conditions, that it could very well be overridden by a court order, if they or a family member, think they know better ("surely Uncle Charlie couldn't possibly have meant that he would have wanted to live like this". )

Last Will and Testaments are overturned routinely by courts nowadays, if it is to some powerfully connected person's or organization's financial advantage, so why not Living Wills? Lawyers like to say "they (wills) aren't written in stone". Well, they should be considered as written in stone. If not, why have them, afterall?

Yes, suffering is subjective, I agree. We can't speak for someone else if they can't communicate their wishes to us, because we just don't know how they are perceiving, and handling, their situation.

As for euthenasia, I can only speak for my own convictions. I don't agree with "active" euthenasia, such as assisted suicide, lethal injections, withholding of food and water, etc.

Noah, you can contact the governor of Florida, the Attorney General, and the news outlets. I don't know of any petitions, per se, but there may be some available at some of the blog sites. And most importantly, you can continue to pray for her.

Terri has been presented poorly in much of the media, that's true. But I think the truth of her condition is coming to light. There are some video clips that you can view at terrisfight.org that show how full of life she actually is.

She does attempt to communicate, though not fluently. She was able to speak a few words in the beginning, but after 10 plus years of being denied therapy, she has lost that ability. But she still keeps trying.

  

Alicat
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28 posted 2005-02-24 09:22 PM


Odds are, sadly, that her broken bones before she was admitted, and her mended bones during her semi-vegetative state, will remain sealed, and her husband will get away with spousal abuse, approved murder, and adultry.  In short, his little inconvenience and roadblock will be removed, and he'll be able to marry the mother of his children, and he would have pulled the blinds on many people.

I wonder how his new wife will fare when he tires of her and seeks solace on another bosom.

Denise
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29 posted 2005-02-25 12:46 PM


Here are some more interesting links that I came upon tonight.

http://www.ginzell.net/florida_law_vs_scientology_policy.html
http://www.ginzell.net/terris_wish_or_hubbards_hurrah.html
http://www.crosswalk.com/news/weblogs/mohler/1227005.html?view=print
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/terri.htm


Something more sinister is at work here, I think, Ali, than a husband who wishes to rid himself of a roadblock to his future happiness with a new wife. He could have that by divorcing Terri. Her parents have already stated that if he did so, he could keep whatever money is left of her funds. Although I do believe that he fears what would happen if Terri were able to start speaking about what happened the night of her collapse.

The connection to Scientology has answered alot of the unanswered questions, in my mind anyway. And they seem to own the Clearwater, Fla. area, and many of the powerful citizens in it (politicians, judges, lawyers, etc.) I've done a lot of reading about them tonight. I never knew their philosophies about the disabled before, and their quest for the "perfect new world order", without the sick and disabled bringing down society. I was absolutely chilled to the core reading some of Ron L. Hubbard's statements and philosophies, and reading the tactics that they use against those who oppose them.

So much about what has happened, and is still happening, in Terri's case makes perfect sense now.  

Denise
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30 posted 2005-02-25 12:56 PM


And here's another interesting article.
http://www.theempirejournal.com/doh_scandal_grounds_for_new_trial_in_schiavo_case.htm

Denise
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31 posted 2005-02-25 01:23 AM


Ali, here is the link to her bone scan (the one Judge Greer said isn't relevent to Terri's situation today. Why? I guess because he says so.)

http://www.ginzell.net/terri_schiavo_bone_scan.html

And another one that seems to show the influence that the Church of Scientology seems to have over lawyers, judges and officials in Clearwater.
http://www.ginzell.net/scientology_clearwater_bar_association_judge_greer.html


Denise
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32 posted 2005-02-25 09:26 AM


I found a link for a petition to save Terri, Noah.

I urge everyone to sign it. There is also contact information that will display after signing the petition if you wish to do more.
http://www.cfra.info/213/petition.asp

Thank you.

Denise
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33 posted 2005-02-25 10:27 AM


Here is a link to a letter from Terri's father, and below it a plea to the governor, and also a letter from Randall Terry who is helping the family in their effort to save Terri from court ordered starvation.
http://www.conservativealerts.com/terri-tj.htm

LoveBug
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34 posted 2005-02-25 01:51 PM


Thanks for all the info... I hope something can be done..

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Denise
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35 posted 2005-02-25 04:34 PM


You're welcome, LoveBug.

Judge Greer has ordered Terri's feeding tube removed and has set the date at March 18 in order to allow her parents time to appeal.

I hope and pray that they are successful and that someone with authority will actually investigate this horrible situation and allegations of abuse and will remove Michael Schiavo as her guardian.

In my reading of this case, I found that even if the feeding tube is removed, it is still illegal for Terri to be deprived of food and water orally, which Michael ordered the last time that the feeding tube was removed (he also forbade anyone to attempt to feed her naturally, which in Florida is a felony.)

And as some may be unaware, euthenasia is still illegal in all 50 States.

Let's keep up the pressure on this. You can be sure the other side will. We can't allow a judge in Florida, or anywhere for that matter, to set a legal precedent for euthenasia.

The petition that I provided a link to was only started two days ago and in that short time had garnered over 100,000 signatures.


Denise
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36 posted 2005-02-26 01:44 PM


I've read the judges order and I am dismayed by it. It seems to be nothing more than another stonewall effort against the parents to seek medical evaluation, treatment, and the removal of the husband as guardian.

He states that he will grant no more stays beyond the March 18 date and it is up to the parents to prove to the appellate courts that their petitions have merit. To whom are they to prove this, and how, when the courts have routinely denied their petitons, without explanation, as having no merit? And they have only 3 weeks in order to prove the merit of their petition to get her medical testing (they can't just ask the medical community for this new testing that is available...it has to be approved by the court, or by Michael Schiavo) and the court would also have to remove Terri's husband as guardian...something that seems unlikely since Judge Greer recently returned their filing requesting that, listing all of Michael's violations of Florida guardianship laws, evidences of conflict of interest, and evidences of past abuse with simply the finding of "unfounded" and dismissed it out of hand.

I think in light of this judicial travesty that the Justice Department should be called upon to investigate what has been going on in this case. That may be Terri's only hope at actually having her rights afforded to her.

[This message has been edited by Denise (02-27-2005 12:55 PM).]

Denise
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37 posted 2005-02-27 02:57 PM


I am aware that most people are sadly misinformed regarding this case and have based their opinions only on the misinformation being fed to the press and media by Michael Schiavo and his attorney, George Felos. She is far from the ‘house plant’ that Michael stated that she is, and is not in a vegetative state induced by bulimia as Michael and his attorney constantly feed to the media. She is not on any extraordinary means of life support. Her only tube is a feeding tube that provides her with nourishment since her husband has long ago denied that she be fed by mouth, even though she was eating soft foods by spoon before her therapy was stopped. She can still swallow, as she swallows her own saliva, but she needs therapy to improve her swallowing ability, something that her husband has denied for over 13 years against medical advice.

Here is a link to a very good article on this case.
http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/02/terri_schiavo_n.php#more

Here are some action items excerpted from the article.

quote:
Contact Florida’s Governor, Jeb Bush at jeb.bush@myflorida.com and demand that he invoke Florida Statute 415.1051 to provide protective custody until investigations into abuse and neglect can be carried out.

Contact Florida Senate at www.myflorida.com  and ask them to institute an immediate moratorium on withholding assisted nutrition and hydration until Florida can adopt a new standard of testing protocols for brain-injured patients.

Contact Florida’s House of Representatives at www.myfloridahouse.com  and ask them to pass legislation that would forbid the removal of food and water without the informed consent of the patient.



And this:

http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/02/should_michael.php

quote:
  
Even if one assumes the best of Michael Schiavo and assumes that he feels Terri's death would be in her best interest because her life as it is must be intolerable, even if he is frustrated by the years of legal wrangling out of cencern for her, and not his own needs, one cannot explain his behavior toward her. Why, if she must be kept alive while legal issues are settled, doesn't he let the nurses clean her teeth? Why does he order her window shades down at all times, banish cards, flowers and family pictures from her room, and not allow her to be taken from her room at all? Why doesn't he allow her testing and therapy that may increase her functioning and even help her to swallow and speak? Is he really concerned for her suffering? One would think that if he truly wanted to reduce her suffering, he would not add to it in these ways.



And here is a link to a petition to the Florida legislature to impeach Judge Greer. The petition lists each incidence of malfeasance by him in regard to his handling of, and rulings in, the Terri Schiavo case.
http://www.petitiononline.com/ijg520/petition.html


And here is another very good article:
http://www.theempirejournal.com/021005bci_bush_could_intervene_i.htm


Please become involved and do whatever you can to get the truth out about Terri and her situation, and urge your family, friends, email buddies, and houses of worship to become involved as well. And pray. Time is short, and a life hangs in the balance, as well as many other lives in the future if a precedent for euthenasia is allowed to be set in this case.

Thanks again.



Denise
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38 posted 2005-02-27 05:07 PM


If you don't have the time to email each senate member, here is the email for the President of the Senate.

lee.tom.web@flsenate.gov



Denise
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39 posted 2005-02-28 10:22 PM


The Jacksonville Justice Coaliton, of Jacksonville, Florida, has initiated a petition on Terri's behalf.

Please sign it and pass it along to everyone you know.

Thanks so much.
http://www.justicecoalition.org/petition2.htm

Denise
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40 posted 2005-02-28 10:58 PM


You may also send an email to Amnesty International USA, asking them to intervene to prevent Terri's death by torture (starvation and dehydration), which people can go to jail for if they were to do the same thing to their house pets.
Here is their email address:

aimember@aiusa.org

Here is their website:-
http://www.amnestyusa.org/contact/

Hitler's Germany viewed the disabled as expendable and worthy of nothing but death. We're better than that, aren't we?


Denise
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41 posted 2005-03-01 12:08 PM


quote:
In October of 1939 amid the turmoil of the outbreak of war Hitler ordered widespread "mercy killing" of the sick and disabled. Code-named "Aktion T4," the Nazi euthanasia program to eliminate "life unworthy of life" at first focused on newborns and very young children. Midwives and doctors were required to register children up to age three who showed symptoms of mental retardation, physical deformity, or other deviations included on a questionnaire from the Reich Health Ministry.

A decision on whether to allow the child to live was then made by three medical experts solely on the basis of the questionnaire, without any examination and without reading any medical records. Each expert placed a + (plus) mark in red pencil or a - (minus) mark in blue pencil under the term "treatment" on a special form. A red plus mark meant a decision to kill the child. A blue minus sign meant meant a decision against killing. Three plus symbols resulted in a euthanasia warrant being issued and the transfer of the child to a 'Children's Specialty Department' for death by injection or gradual starvation. . . .

Next came the mentally retarded, then the handicapped, then the intellectuals. . .

http://www.gopinsight.com/2005/02/is-it-happening-here-in-terris-fight.php


Mistletoe Angel
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42 posted 2005-03-01 01:06 PM




Yes, we are indeed much better than that.

You know, I've always been uncomfortable in using World War II comparisons to other issues politically and all, as I just find it always brings back bad memories and bad blood. In one way or another, however, I believe it's very important we understand we have learned from the mistakes of the past, and embrace the disabled, sick, and mentally challenged, and do just that by providing the legislative cushion and the compassionate blanket.

I can see why this has remained a quiet thread. I, myself, felt this as an extremely sensitive thread with so many strong emotions reeling and I was a little timid in coming in here myself. But before deciding to add my two cents, believe me that I was thinking and considering this issue among others strongly, and that you're not alone in your thoughts and sentiments. Indeed this is a sensitive issue and I have been debating it with my parents this last week and a half or so. And though generally we have disagreed on a majority of issues, I am glad we could have this talk and blessed we could seek common ground together here.

Don't be discouraged that this thread does remain quiet. I believe that's just the attitude others are taking here. This is sensitive, shaky ground, but I believe others are truly quietly thinking to themselves with some of the passion you have shared with us all, regardless of their overall opinion on social issues like euthanasia, the death penalty, abortion, etc. I don't believe anyone else here should be forced to speak here, and the best approach is to just believe in our hearts with faith that regardless of overall opinion, so many are offering their compassion and well wishes to Terri.

As an aside, but still relevant to the issue of life, hooray for the Supreme Court in banning the execution of minors today. This is a victory that has been long delayed, and I certainly hope soon we can follow the lead of approximately 110 nations around the world in banning the death penalty in its entirety.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Denise
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43 posted 2005-03-01 08:14 PM


I admire your courage, Noah. Thanks for speaking up about your convictions on this matter, despite its controversial nature, although I can't for the life of me understand the preservation of life being controversial.

I have felt like I have been, for the most part, talking to myself in here. Maybe I should watch that, someone may want to take away my food and water!

I think a lot of people are just under the mistaken notion that Terri is somehow 'terminal', and on some sort of life support other than the kind we are all on...food and water. But she's not in a 'terminal' condition physically. She is cognizantly disabled, not suffering from a terminal ailment. Not that I would consider the starvation and dehydration of anyone even if they were terminal. I would continue to feed someone who is terminal whose body can handle it and provide non-lethal doses of morphine, enough to make someone comfortable but not enough to make them die, and let the natural dying process procede as humanely as possible.

When my father suffered brain damage and was in a coma, we opted not to have a feeding tube placed because his brain damage was so severe that all his bodily organs were shutting down and feeding him would have caused him agony since his body couldn't eliminate anything. His condition was terminal (but the hospice did continue to provide hydration to him, because allowing him to dehydrate would have been excruciating, according to the hospice, and they believed that even people in comas can feel pain). Too bad that Terri is in the hospice controlled by George Felos (Michael Schiavo's attorney) and not in the one my father was, in Sarasota, Florida.

But that's not the case with Terri Schiavo, whose body functions quite well with the feeding tube, for almost 15 years now. The only reason for its removal is to cause her death, which it will, since no sickness or disease will be causing it, but rather starvation and dehydration.


Denise
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44 posted 2005-03-01 09:02 PM


quote:
Judge Greer Obstructing Justice

Terri Schiavo and her family flagrantly denied due process by probate judge

Clearwater, FL – On February 28, 2005, the parents of Terri Schiavo were informed, through their Attorney David Gibbs, III that Judge George Greer of Pinellas-Pasco’s Sixth Judicial Circuit has denied, without access to hearing, motions filed by Terri Schiavo’s immediate family for

Updated neurological evaluations based on new MRI testing protocols;

A motion to compel the deposition of Michael Schiavo;

A petition for extraordinary authority to provide Terri Schiavo with updated rehabilitative protocols;

A petition for divorce, citing open adultery on the part of Terri Schiavo’s husband and guardian;

An objection to the guardian’s annual guardianship plan;

A motion to remove Michael Schiavo as guardian, citing his failure to comply with Florida Law mandated guardianship requirements. This motion dates back to November of 2002, but the court has never ruled on it.

Judge Greer has stated that he will only consider motions from Terri’s family as they relate to the death process, which include but are not limited to a motion to allow Terri Schiavo to die at home instead of a Hospice facility, a motion for a Florida burial, and a motion allowing her immediate family uninterrupted access to her throughout the death process.

The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation finds the actions of Judge Greer reprehensible and a clear denial of the due process rights afforded to Terri Schiavo under Federal and Florida law.

With new medical diagnosis protocols and new levels of rehabilitation protocols, Terri Schiavo’s adjudicated condition of ‘persistent vegetative state’ is no longer equitable and any responsible jurist would eagerly recognize and accommodate more thorough means of determining the disabled woman’s true condition – a condition that remains in great dispute.

Additionally, the Foundation finds the behavior of Judge Greer an absolute obstruction of due process for Terri Schiavo by his refusal to hold the guardian accountable for violation of Florida’s guardian laws. The guardian has spent Terri Schiavo’s medical fund on representing his own legal interests, has denied her necessary medical services, lives in open adultery with his girlfriend and their two children, has petitioned the courts to cremate Terri immediately upon her death and has repeatedly and flagrantly failed to comply with Florida Statutes that mandate the terms of guardianship. Judge Greer couldn’t be bothered with those details so long as Terri Schiavo’s death is a guaranteed outcome.

Statement of Pamela Hennessy, Media Representative of the Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation: Never in my life have I seen a judge so afraid of the truth. Why is it that admitted criminals are protected to every reasonable measure of law, but our disabled and vulnerable citizens are discarded by the courts as unworthy lives?

http://www.terrisfight.org/press/022805.html

This is what this family has been up against all these years in the court system.

Alicat
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45 posted 2005-03-01 09:13 PM


Thank you Denise for all the info and links, and I am indeed saddened by this perversion of legal justice.  I have to wonder if that Judge is appointed or elected.  Either way, he needs to be impeached on grounds of gross negligence, collusion, obstruction of justice, incompetance, and anything thing else they can easily find on him.  Perhaps, if nothing else, he can be brought before the Court in a civil lawsuit, or possibly a criminal suit if he's indicted for accessory to murder.
Denise
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46 posted 2005-03-01 09:56 PM


You're welcome Ali. I am saddened to tears over this latest development.

I understand that he is an elected judge. I agree, he should, at the very least, be impeached.

Here is the link again for anyone wishing to sign the petition for his impeachment, who hasn't already done so.
http://www.petitiononline.com/ijg520/petition.html

And please email Jeb Bush and ask him to immediately put Terri in protective custody under the guardianship of the State, at least until the new MRI testing can be done to determine her actual condition, and evaluation by objective parties. He does have the authority to do that.

jeb.bush@myflorida.com

Thank you.


Denise
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47 posted 2005-03-01 11:02 PM


quote:
March 01, 2005
Disability Rights Activist Has Experienced Medically Induced Starvation

Kate Adamson, award winning author and disability rights activist, by request of the Schindler family, has launched a campaign to save Terri Schiavo from starvation. Like Terri, the doctors felt that Kate was someone who should not or could not be saved. Kate suffered a catastrophic brain stem stroke and was dependent on a feeding tube for all her nourishment. Kate had her feeding tube turned off for over a week.

Now fully functional except for some paralysis on the left side of her body, Kate is in the unique position of knowing what it is like to be starved. She is hopeful that her story will get people to stop before they sign on to the idea that Terri Schiavo should be starved to death. Unlike Michael Schiavo who is trying to have his wife starved to death, Kate's husband Steve fought to save her life.

Adamson, author of Kate's Journey, appeared on Paula Zahn Now to make an impassioned plea to save Terri's life. That program, along with numerous other radio and television appearances, has resulted in thousands of responses from people who agree that Terri Schiavo deserves a chance to live.

Planning a trip in hopes of visiting Terri's bedside, Kate is hopeful that she will be able to meet with Governor Bush and the members of the Florida State legislature.

"I have a unique understanding of what Terri is feeling. I could feel everything that the doctors did to me, and I could do nothing. I was at the complete mercy of others, and they couldn't hear me." -- Kate Adamson

For more information, please visit her website at www.KatesJourney.com.

http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/03/disability_righ.php#more

Denise
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48 posted 2005-03-02 09:56 PM


Here are two more petitions that I found. Please sign them and forward them to all your family, friends and email buddies. Thanks! And keep praying too!

http://www.petitiononline.com/chisana7/
http://www.petitiononline.com/19461949/

Denise
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49 posted 2005-03-02 10:26 PM


And this:

quote:
  Don't Forget To Call President Bush: Please intervene to save Terri Schiavo

I just called the White House comment line listed below. You actually get to speak to someone, it's not just a recording. I was told that the calls do help and to get more people to call.

She need not ask twice. The White House asks, now let's see to it that they receive -lots of calls!

Call President Bush and ask him to personally intervene:

President George W. Bush
(202) 456-1111
president@whitehouse.gov  


http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/02/dont_forget_to.php


And more petitions!  Seems like everyone has caught on to your idea, Noah!
http://www.renewamerica.us/news/050224petitions.htm

hush
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50 posted 2005-03-03 10:01 AM


"I can't for the life of me understand the preservation of life being controversial."

If you worked in a nursing home and saw people suffer day in and day out, you might have a different perspective.

Once again, I agree that it would be entirely immoral (and should be deemed illegal) to take Terri off the feeding tube. But this case is a unique case, and it is not what is usually seen in nursing homes. People have the right to legally decide what they want done (or not done) to preserve their lives, and in that persons inability to communicate, that responsibility usually does fall to the family.

Denise
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51 posted 2005-03-03 08:34 PM


You're right, hush, it would be the height (depths?) of immorality to remove a feeding tube in order to starve and dehydrate someone.


quote:
  
Congress May Step in on Terri Schiavo Case
Congressman David Weldon (R-FL), a medical doctor, plans to introduce legislation titled the Incapacitated Person's Legal Protection Act (Terri's Law), which will hopefully help save Terri Schiavo's life. The legislation would give Terri and others in similar situations the same constitutional protection of due process as death row inmates. Already this week, attorneys for Terri's parents have filed six different motions to help save their daughter, all of which are now on appeal. Dr. Weldon's legislation would allow Terri to have her own counsel who can argue her case, a right given to any criminal in the United States. Terri is, of course, not a criminal but a woman fighting for her life. As Terri's fight intensifies, I cannot be more frank on the fate of this poor woman if her husband has his way. If Terri's feeding tubes are removed, she will face a slow death through starvation, which can take anywhere from 7 to 30 days. Terri's parents, as do Congressman Weldon and I, truly believe Terri is alive and deserves to continue living. Please call, e-mail, AND fax your U.S. representative to support Terri's Law -- truly life-saving legislation. Time is of the essence.
Contact Your Elected Officials. Source: Family Research Council


http://www.blogsforterri.com/

Please contact your elected officials immediately about this new piece of legislation. It will be voted on March 8th. No time to lose. And please pass this info on to everyone you know and ask them to do the same. Thanks!

hush
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52 posted 2005-03-04 12:06 PM


Denise-

Do you think, in the absence of a living will, a family should have the right to say "No, I don't believe my mom/dad/whoever would want to live this way- please do not place a feeding tube." Is preserving life always the right decision?

Denise
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53 posted 2005-03-04 06:37 PM


In my opinion, without a written advance directive, no one can really know, or prove, what someone else would want in a given situation, hush. They can only speculate.

But I don't consider food and water extraordinary means of life support anyway. I think if a person's body can tolerate the feeding process then they should be fed and be kept comfortable and allow for the natural progression of the dying process if they are terminally ill. In Terri's case there is no dying process, unless she is deprived of food and water. She isn't terminally ill, as you know. She's disabled.

So no, I don't think anyone should have the right to be able to deprive someone of food and water in order to facilitate their dying. Let the disease, if they have one and it isn't responding to treatment, be the cause of their death, not starvation and dehydration.

Denise
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54 posted 2005-03-08 07:46 PM


Here is the latest news. Let's pray that this legislation passes for Terri's sake and for other disabled people who do not have advance medical directives.

Also in the article is a statement from a renowned physicican stating that Terri can be helped with therapy, and is definitely responsive and not in a coma.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43205


Denise
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55 posted 2005-03-11 08:21 PM


quote:
Greer has denied the motion for new medical testing, the motion to reconsider his error in the testimony regarding Karen Quinlan and has ordered that Terri cannot be given food and water orally after tube removal.



quote:
- From the Empire Journal
The battle lines were clearly drawn Wednesday in the courtroom of Pinellas County Judge George W. Greer when the chief legal counsel for Florida’s Department of Children and Families told Greer that the court cannot impede an agency function during a contentious court hearing on various motions in the Terri Schiavo case, the neurologically impaired woman whom Greer has ordered to death by starvation.

Greer also finished denying the rest of the motions which had been submitted by Terri Schiavo’s parents following his order issued on Feb. 25 that her execution will begin at 1 p.m. on March 18.

http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/03/as_judge_greer.php

Please continue to keep Terri in your prayers and continue to contact the Florida politicians. If you haven't signed any of the petitions available, please do so. All the links are in a previous post.

Thanks.

Denise
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Posts 22648

56 posted 2005-03-13 06:15 PM


Here are email addresses that you can copy and paste. They are grouped in 20 or less since some email providers only allow 20 at a time. If you have AOL, I understand that you have to wait at least twenty minutes between emails that are addressed to twenty people or they will deactivate your account until you call them to get it reactivated. Whether you have AOL or another provider, I'd wait at least twenty minutes anyway to be on the safe side.

Please email all these folks and ask them to do whatever they can to save Terri and other disabled people who can't speak for themselves from euthenasia.

Thanks so much.


jeb@jeb.org, jeb.bush@myflorida.com,  wise.stephen.web@flsenate.gov, drawdy.ann.so9@flsenate.gov, fasano.mike.web@flsenate.gov, giordano.gregory@flsenate.gov, dockery.paula.web@flsenate.gov, lynn.evelyn.web@flsenate.gov, miller.leslie.web@flsenate.gov, siplin.gary.web@flsenate.gov, smith.rod.web@flsenate.gov, alexander.jd.web@flsenate.gov, aronberg.dave.web@flsenate.gov, bennett.mike.web@flsenate.gov, carlton.lisa.web@flsenate.gov, constantine.lee.web@flsenate.gov, cowin.ana.web@flsenate.gov, jones.dennis.web@flsenate.gov,
  
  
crist.voctor.web@flsenate.gov, lee.tom.web@flsenate.gov, posey.bill.web@flsenate.gov, fernanr@eog.state.fl.us, raquel.rodriguez@myflorida.com, calamac@eog.state.fl.us, bob.marshall@trincomm.org, speaker@myfloridahouse.gov, sharron.brown@myfloridahouse.gov, peterman.frank@myfloridahouse.com, farkas.frank@myfloridahouse.com, flores.anitere@myfloridahouse.com, waters.leslie@myfloridahouse.com, diana.caridad@myfloridahouse.com, berfield.kim@myfloridahouse.com, detert.nancy@myfloridahouse.com, clarke.donna@myfloridahouse.com, galvano.bill@myfloridahouse.com, homan.ed@myfloridahouse.com,
  
  
joyner.arthenia@myfloridahouse.com, justice.charlie@myfloridahouse.com, legg.john@myfloridahouse.com, machek.richard@myfloridahouse.com, mahon.mark@myfloridahouse.com, mayfield.stan@myfloridahouse.com, kravitz.dick@myfloridahouse.com, kreegel.paige@myfloridahouse.com, kyle.bruce@myfloridahouse.com, mealor.david@myfloridahouse.com, murzin.dave@myfloridahouse.com, needelman.mitch@myfloridahouse.com, negron.joe@myfloridahouse.com, patterson.pat@myfloridahouse.com, poppell.ralph@myfloridahouse.com, porth.ari@myfloridahouse.com, reagan.ron@myfloridahouse.com, rivera.david@myfloridahouse.com, robaina.julio@myfloridahouse.com,
  
  
roberson.yolly@myfloridahouse.com, rubio.marco@myfloridahouse.com, sands.franklin@myfloridahouse.com, sansom.ray@myfloridahouse.com, sobel.eleanor@myfloridahouse.com, sorensen.ken@myfloridahouse.com, stansel.dwight@myfloridahouse.com, stargel.john@myfloridahouse.com, taylor.priscilla@myfloridahouse.gov, vana.shelley@myfloridahouse.com, williams.trudi@myfloridahouse.com, zapata.juan@myfloridahouse.com, domino.carl@myfloridahouse.com, culp.faye@myfloridahouse.com, evers.greg@myfloridahouse.com, fields.terry@myfloridahouse.com, garcia.rene@myfloridahouse.com, gardiner.andy@myfloridahouse.com,
  
  
gibson.audrey@myfloridahouse.com, gibson.hugh@myfloridahouse.com, goldstein.susan@myfloridahouse.com, greenstein.ron@myfloridahouse.com, harrell.gayle@myfloridahouse.com, hasner.adam@myfloridahouse.com, hukill.dorothy@myfloridahouse.com, johnson.randy@myfloridahouse.com, jordan.stan@myfloridahouse.com, cretul.larry@myfloridahouse.com, davis.mike@myfloridahouse.com, davis.don@myfloridahouse.com, cannon.dean@myfloridahouse.com, carroll.jennifer@myfloridahouse.com, bucher.susan@myfloridahouse.com, brutus.phillip@myfloridahouse.com, benson.anna@myfloridahouse.com, brandenburg.mary@myfloridahouse.com,
  
  
bean.aaron@myfloridahouse.com, barreiro.gustavo@myfloridahouse.com, ausley.loranne@myfloridahouse.com, attkisson.frank@myfloridahouse.com, arza.rafael@myfloridahouse.com, antone.bruce@myfloridahouse.com, altman.thad@myfloridahouse.com, allen.bob@myfloridahouse.com, adams.sandra@myfloridahouse.com, simmons.david@myfloridahouse.com, planas.juan-carlos@myfloridahouse.com, ambler.kevin@myfloridahouse.com, baxley.dennis@myfloridahouse.com, brummer.frederick@myfloridahouse.com, gelber.dan@myfloridahouse.com, grant.michael@myfloridahouse.com, kottkamp.jeff@myfloridahouse.com, mcinvale.sheri@myfloridahouse.com, pickens.joe@myfloridahouse.com, richardson.curtis@myfloridahouse.com,  
  
ross.dennis@myfloridahouse.com, seiler.jack@myfloridahouse.com, stephen.hogge@myfloridahouse.gov, david.delapaz@myfloridahouse.gov

chawes@baynews9.com, mdeeson@tampabays10.com,  oreilly@foxnews.com, Squawk@CNBC.com,
wvcy-tv@vcyamerica.org, hannity@foxnews.com, rush@eibnet.com, ruddyc@newsmax.com, jfarah@worldnetdaily.com, dsaunders@sfchronicle.com, dsommer@tampatrib.com, editor.letters@heraldtribune.com, editor@envoymagazine.com, dklement@bradentonherald.com,
  tribletters@tampatrib.com, colmes@foxnews.com, genesis@genesisrp.com, Radioqop@aol.com, CfRA@coralridge.org

  


Mistletoe Angel
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57 posted 2005-03-14 02:14 PM




(angel friendship hugs) Oh Denise, it has touched my heart so much as you continue to keep us informed each day on Terri, as you care about her life soooooo much and your golden heart is full of so much passion and youthful energy for her and her loved ones!



I signed the new petitions since the last time I commented here and e-mailed all those Florida politicians, LOL! (smiles) It touches my heart deeply to see that activism spirit in your heart and following your heart and doing what you believe is right! I respect you so much for that, and I know even those who disagree with you on issues like this do too, and seeing the passion in you gives me great faith in the world that there are still plenty out there with that spirit, and that it'll still shine in my heart in the future across all issues I feel strongly about!



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Denise
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58 posted 2005-03-17 10:14 PM


Thanks, Noah, for standing with me for this disabled woman's right to life.

With no written advance directive and questionable circumstances surrounding her condition and care, or lack thereof, and the cause of her even being in her current condition under suspicion, and due to the fact of her not being in a state of terminal illness, and due to her not being in a Persistent Vegatative State, by Florida's own definition of PVS, it's a no-brainer to me. There's something very rotten in Clearwater.

quote:
Pamela Hennessy, spokesperson for the Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation, has issued a statement concerning the current situation in the U.S. Congress involving the needed compromise of the approved, but different, versions of the “habeas corpus bill” that would save the life of Terri Schiavo.

http://www.theempirejournal.com/
quote:
“House leaders, listed below, can make a condition of adjournment the approval of the Incapacitated Persons Legal Protection Act (Habeas Corpus) a requirement.



House Speaker Dennis Hastert
Phone: 202-225-2976
Fax: 202-225-0697 http://www.house.gov/hastert/write1.shtml

Majority Tom Delay
Ph. (202) 225-5951
Fax (202) 225-5241 http://tomdelay.house.gov/contactmecase.htm

Representative James Sessenbrenner
(202) 225-5101
mailto:sensenbrenner@mail.house.gov


Please continue to pray for Terri and for her family and please contact the folks listed above asking them to make the approval of the Incapacitated Persons Legal Protection Act (Habeas Corpus) a condition of adjournment.

And please email Governor Bush to place Terri into the protective custody of the DCF, especially if the U.S. Supreme Court fails to issue a stay while deciding if they will hear the parent's petition to them and if the Incapacitated Persons Legal Protection Act isn't finalized tomorrow morning and the House adjourns without finalizing it, because Terri will be dead by the time they return after their two week recess.

Thanks so much.  



Mistletoe Angel
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59 posted 2005-03-18 02:26 PM


Well, it appears the congressional subpoenas have been delivered to the Florida hospice, and a Florida judge has temporarily blocked the removal of her feeding tube, just moments before the deadline was there to ask for her husband to remove the tube.

I guess right now we have the unpopular opinion on Terri Schiavo and her husband appearing before Congress to testify next week. (One poll reveals 80% believed it was inappropriate for Congress to get involved). But look, I just feel that there still lacks that legislative cushion in respecting these individuals like Terri in these right-to-die cases and debates, I believe she continues to be falsely depicted of her condition in the media, and if she really wants to testify, let her testify. She's the victim here, so she should be entitled to her say. That's democracy.

I believe it's quite appropriate what the House Republican leadership has done here, in just offering her more time while Congress can fully understand what has been keeping her alive and all.

Long-term care is an issue beyond worthy of an inquiry, and I have faith in my heart the activism that Terri's case has generated these past seven years can broaden this senstitive issue more into the spotlight in the months to come.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Mistletoe Angel
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60 posted 2005-03-18 05:26 PM


Oh dear.

I was busy helping set up tomorrow's teach-in and now I've heard her feeding tube has been removed again.

I'm praying for her and her loved ones in hope for a resolve.



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

SEA
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with you
61 posted 2005-03-18 06:07 PM


I sent emails to the emails you have listed. I am keeping her in my prayers. You know it's disgusting, that someone that is about to be executed can get a stay from the Governor, but this is happening to Terri and no one seems to be able to do anything! Why in the world is the care of her not simply turned over to her parents?!? It is just something I can not wrap my mind around. It is unbelievable, disgusting, and heartbreaking.
Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
62 posted 2005-03-19 07:38 PM


An article my wife found. National Review Online. Interesting.

Denise
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Posts 22648

63 posted 2005-03-19 10:21 PM


Noah, I think the subpoena issued to Terri was just an attempt to have the feeding tube not removed in order to buy some time to iron out the legislation that is pending since it is illegal to cause harm to a Federal witness. But Judge Greer is apparently above the law, so the attempt failed. I think it showcased this judge's arrogance to the Congress, which is probably a good thing and probably partly why the House and Senate convened today to iron out the language of their Incapacitated Persons bills and why they will meet tomorrow to vote. I hope and pray that they are able to move things along quickly and restore the feeding tube. If they are able to do so, then DCF can continue on with their investigation of alleged neglect and abuse and reach a conclusion while Terri is still alive. It would be a hollow victory to have them find neglect and abuse allegations to have been true, and have Michael Schiavo found not to have fulfilled his guardianship responsibilities under the law, but have Terri already dead in the meantime.

SEA, the only thing that makes sense to me is that her husband, his attorney, George Felos, and Judge Greer want her dead.

It's only speculation, for now, but I tend to believe that the husband does not want Terri to receive speech therapy and be able to tell anyone what happened to her the night of her collapse that left her brain damaged. Their marriage was a stormy one, her family had seen bruising on her at times which she always gave excuses for, and she had told her brother shortly before the 'incident' that if she had the guts she would divorce her husband. Maybe she found the guts that night and told her husband that she wanted a divorce. I guess we'll never know one way or the other until Terri tells us. I think there is plenty of probable cause to launch an investigation, though, and in the meantime not allow the subject of the investigation to starve his wife to death.

A full body bone scan done shortly after her initial hospitalization, but not made available to her parents until 2002 because Michael Schiavo would not consent to have them released, showed multiple broken bones and multiple healed fractures, prompting the doctor reading the scan to notate that Terri had a history of abuse.

Why was an investigation never done? The parents requested one in 2002 when they first saw the bone scan results, but the police said the case was too old. Perhaps the hospital did alert the police when the scan was done, as I think they would have been required by law to do, or perhaps it just fell through the cracks. My suspicion is that they did alert the police, but since Michael Schiavo and the then Sheriff were, and still are, friends, it was "taken care of".

The parents then petitioned the court to investigate Michael's suitability to continue being her guardian based on the possibility of spousal abuse that the bone scan raised, and the fact that he never provided any therapy at all with any of the jury awarded money that he received as Terri's guardian to provide for her life-long care and rehabilitative therapy. Not one penny of it ever went for Terri, as it should have. As soon as he got the money he forbade any treatment or therapy of any kind, against medical advice, even routine dental care and brushing of her teeth, and Judge Greer later gave him permission to use her funds for lawyers fees in his attempt to starve her. True to form, Judge Greer denied the petitions of the parents.

I find it odd that Michael Schiavo didn't "remember" Terri's supposed statement of not wanting to be kept alive artificially until seven years after the fact, which if the statement ever really was made, which I highly doubt considering that she was upset after seeing the movie about Karen Ann Quinlin's parents taking her off the respirator and disagreed with their decision, a feeding tube was not at that time considered a medical treatment, or viewed as an artificial means of life support in Florida. I also heard Michael say on the news that he had given his approval for the withdrawal of nutrition and hydration for both his parents.

George Felos and Judge Greer are right-to-die advocates, as is their medical expert witness. I believe they want to set a precedent for euthenizing disabled people, even if they are not terminally ill and even if they don't have a written advance directive. As it states in the article for which Pete provided a link (thanks Pete! ), the medical expert used by Greer has stated that Alzheimer's patients should also have their food and hydration withheld. He's also an advocate for assisted suicide. And it seems he's been quite busy in his career in testifying on behalf of having people starved to death. How many "Terri's" have there been? I never knew this was going on before now.

I think it would be a good idea to continue emailing Governor Bush and requesting that he immediately place Terri into protective custody under the DCF, because even with the passage of the legislation, it still may not be enough because briefs will be immediately filed by Felos declaring the legislation unconstitutional, as was done before. And if it's ruled unconstitutional before the feeding tube is even put back in, or Judge Greer simply ignores Congress again, she'll starve to death.



Denise
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64 posted 2005-03-20 12:17 PM



Please sign this emergency petition that will be delivered in Tallahassee on Monday afternoon. Every signature will be included up until Noon on Monday. And continue to pray. Thank you.

Petition:

TO: Governor Jeb Bush, Florida Legislators, Federal Judges
CC: President George W. Bush

As a concerned citizen, I am signing this “Petition to Save Terri Schiavo” and I am urging you to take immediate action to stop the forced starvation of Terri Schiavo. It is vitally important to safeguard Terri’s right to life. Further, we cannot afford to set a legal precedent which puts the lives of other Americans at risk. I support legislative, judicial and executive efforts that will stop the forced starvation of Terri Schiavo.
http://www.cfra.info/213/petition.asp?PID=8141803
Contact Info that was listed after I signed the petition.

PHONE CALLS NEEDED!
Please take a moment to contact key leaders on this issue. Phone calls are absolutely vital!

Governor Jeb Bush
(850) 488-4441
Email: jeb.bush@myflorida.com

Senate President Tom Lee
Tallahassee: (850) 487-5072
District Office: (813) 744-8683
E-mail: lee.tom.web@flsenate.gov

Speaker of the House Allan G. Bense
Tallahassee: (850) 488-1450
District Office: (850) 914-6300
E-mail: speaker@myfloridahouse.gov

Also…

Call President Bush and ask him to personally intervene:

President George W. Bush
(202) 456-1111
president@whitehouse.gov




Marge Tindal
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Florida's Foreverly Shores
65 posted 2005-03-20 10:14 AM


Denise~
As you already know, I have been actively contacting everyone that will listen !

Look ... the entire nation is now responding with thier hearts and heads !!!!

May God's will be done~
Thank you, Denise, for standing so strong on this issue of immense importance~
*Huglets*
~*Marge*~

~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost,
the spirit rejoices over what it has left.
- Sufi epigram <))><

Email noles1@totcon.com

Denise
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66 posted 2005-03-20 06:30 PM


Thank YOU, Marge!

We should have news of the vote in the House shortly after midnight.

Denise
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67 posted 2005-03-20 06:43 PM


Oh, and since last night I've been thinking that it was too bad that Terri didn't have a judge with the wisdom of King Solomon presiding over her case, you know the guy who gave the child to the woman who wanted to keep the child alive, even if she couldn't physically have custody and denied giving the child to the person who was willing to let it be killed just to prevent someone else from having it? I can definitely see the parallels.
Denise
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68 posted 2005-03-20 07:15 PM


From an article by Rabbi Smuley Boteach:

quote:
How the United States could today devalue the life of the infirm by removing a brain-damaged woman's feeding tube, and unwittingly ally itself with the euthanasia program of the history's foremost monster, should send shivers down the spine of every American.

But biblical ethics aside, there is also common sense and logic. Should we really take what might have been a throw-away comment from a wife to her husband about not wanting to live in a vegetative state as the rationale to murder a human being?

Apparently, Terri and her husband were watching some film about a person in a coma when Terri told her husband she would never want to live like that. But people make comments like that during movies all the time without really meaning them.

And even if Terri Schiavo expressly wanted to die, does that mean we should kill her? Dr. Kevorkian is sitting in prison for the rest of his life precisely because he killed people who wished to die. How is this different?

And what jurisdiction should Terri's husband, Michael, have here? He maintains that he is fighting to remove his wife's feeding tube to keep his pledge to her that she be allowed to die with dignity.

Now this is curious. The husband has taken other pledges to his wife, which apparently are far less meaningful to him. For example, in marrying her, he pledged to stand by her "in sickness and in health." Yet, many years ago he abandoned Terri, moved in with his girlfriend and had children with this other woman. Apparently, his pledge of sexual fidelity did not mean much to him, either.

Now, I'm not suggesting that Michael Schiavo should have remained celibate for the last 15 years, and I understand the need for human companionship. But he could easily have divorced Terri and left her in her parents' care rather than cheating on her and having children out of wedlock. But staying married to your wife just to ensure that she dies sounds a lot to me like wanting to inherit her estate. But honestly, which sane judge, in this case Pinellas Circuit Court Judge George Greer, would allow a man who is living with, and has children with, another woman, to make life-and-death decisions concerning his wife? This is a shocking affront to basic decency.

Furthermore, Judge Greer accepted the opinion of doctors who said Ms. Schiavo, 41, is in a "persistent vegetative state," the definition of which, according to the New York Times, is "damage to her cerebral cortex [that] has made her incapable of emotion, memory or thought."

But woe to a nation that determines that the sanctity of life is determined by a capacity to feel emotion, memory or thought. Before he died, Ronald Reagan was so ravaged by Alzheimer's that he had lost all memory and all capacity for cognitive thought. But could one only imagine a sane individual arguing that Reagan should have been denied food years before his 2004 death because he had become worthless? The same applies to millions of the elderly who inhabit our homes for the aged. A great many do nothing but sit in a chair or lie in bed with scarcely movement or memory. How far are we from a time when calls will go forth to deny them all food as well?

What comes to mind in the story of Terri Schiavo is the famous quotation of Pastor Martin Niemöller concerning moral failure in the face of the Nazis: "First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me." Terry Schiavo has no voice, so we must become her voice.

I shudder for my country to think that such acts of barbarity can take place in the world's foremost democracy and humanity's guarantor of liberty and freedom.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43381


Denise
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Posts 22648

69 posted 2005-03-20 07:57 PM


Exclusive
MICHAEL ADMITS HE DIDN’T KNOW WHAT TERRI WANTED

Bush Must Exercise Protective Custody Now


The Empire Journal

According to a transcript of the Larry King Show on Friday, March 18 after the nutrition and hydration had been removed from his wife by the death order of Florida judge George W. Greer, Michael Schiavo admitted on national television that “we didn’t know what Terri wanted but this is what we want……”

A review of the transcript of Friday night’s Larry King show when Schiavo and his attorney, George Felos were guests, clearly indicates that Michael Schiavo admitted that he did not know what the wishes of Terri Schindler-Schiavo are in regard to being kept alive by assisted feeding.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/18/lkl.01.html

http://www.theempirejournal.com/03200544_michael_admits_he_didn.htm

Denise
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Posts 22648

70 posted 2005-03-20 08:21 PM


From a neurologist who actually examined Terri for more than 10 minutes or by video only:


With stimulation Terri improved and was interactive. Dr. James Barnhill examined her for ten minutes and said she was in a persistent vegetative state. A persistent vegetative state means the patient only has sleep-wake cycles and cannot interact or respond to others. Clearly Dr. Barnhill is quite wrong after his ten minute examination. Dr. Hammesfahr's findings after examining Terri were:


"The patient is not in coma.
She is alert and responsive to her environment. She responds to specific people best. She tries to please others by doing activities for which she gets verbal praise. She responds negatively to poor tone of voice. She responds to music.
She differentiates sounds from voices.
She differentiates specific people's voices from others.
She differentiates music from stray sound.
She attempts to verbalize.
She has voluntary control over multiple extremities
She can swallow.
She is partially blind
She is probably aphasic and has a degree of receptive aphasia.
She can feel pain.


These were some of his observations:


On September 3, I spent from approximately 11AM until 4PM with Ms. Schiavo, returning the next day to also observe Dr. Maxfield and complete my portion of the exam (which duplicated that of Dr. Maxfield, so I observed without myself specifically repeating that part of the exam that same day). The exam was videotaped at my request. The exam started with the setting up of the video camera by the videographers, with Mr. Michael Schiavo present.

...Her mother then entered the room, coming toward her and speaking her name. The daughter immediately showed awareness of the presence of her mother, looking for her, then finding her visually when the mother was approximately 8 inches from her face. She then smiled and made sounds. Her father also entered the room with further apparent recognition by the daughter. The first part of this exam included observing her interactions with her mother and her father. Here she clearly was aware of them and attempted to interact with them: the sounds, facial expressions, and searching out and tracking them.

...I asked the mother to bring a tape of piano music. Two separate pieces were listened to. The first she appeared aware of the sound, but would not sing or interact significantly. The second she did interact making sounds with the music. She stopped making these sounds, when the music stopped.

...Alertness: The patient was alert throughout essentially the entire exam.

Responsiveness: The patient would immediately respond to sound, tone of voice and to touch and pain. With respect to responding to those around her, she had limited responsiveness to me personally until approximately 45 minutes into the exam. She started to look at me, against her traditional right gaze preference, about the same time that we started getting significant relaxation in her contracted left arm (the arm that had been contracted for several years.) She appeared to identify the sound of my voice, with the relaxation of the arm. From that point, she would generally look toward the sound of my voice when heard, attempt to find me visually, then track the sound of my voice in its movements, or track me if I was within approximately one foot of her eyes. Prior to that time, she did not track me, or try to locate me visually. When playing music, she had a clear preference to the specific sound track played, and would listen to piano music, but change levels of listening depending on the track played. Her attention to the music would not wander during the track she preferred. She would pick out her mother's voice or her father's voice separate from the music or other voices or sounds in the room, and re-fix her gaze to those people. She would tend not to blink when watching those people.

She ignored her husband's loud foot-tapping that went on for approximately five minutes at one point. She also ignored his voice and did not try to seek him out visually when he would at times interject comments during the exam or immediately afterwards.


It is evident that Terri Schiavo is responsive, and not only interacts with others and with her surroundings, but chooses who to interact with. She responds immediately to her parents, takes time to get to know the doctor, and ignores her husband who is being deliberately distracting.
http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/


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71 posted 2005-03-20 09:16 PM


I had another response, but I'm so very pissed at her 'husband', his judicial defenders, and various House Democrats that I can't even think straight right now.  All I can do is shout certain explitives at the TV, especially when those Democrats natter on irrespective of their elected constituents.  BLEAH!
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72 posted 2005-03-21 02:45 PM



As you read this ... most of us have  consumed at least nine meals since Friday P.M., when Terri's feeding tube and hydrating mechanism were removed ... how long would you be willing to go without food or water ???
(I made a personal decision to do without food for a period of four days (96 hours) ... my lifemate wouldn't let me give up the liquids ... so at least I'm hydrated !!!  That's more than poor Terri gets !!!

Though Terri has been 'in the Florida news' for many years ... it took a movement of caring people to bring her plight to the forefront of the nation and the world !

May God's will be done and Terri's feeding tube re-inserted so she can get on with LIVING~

I asked an acquaintance, who is as adamant about the removal of the feeding tube as I am about re-inserting it, ... are YOU willing to go on a hunger (no liquids either) strike until Terri starves to death ?

What I got was a cocky, "Well, not tonight dear, I have a banquet to attend."

Continuing to pray that the Federal Judge will act quickly~

I'm sure that if I'M getting hungry ... that Terri is too !!!





~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost,
the spirit rejoices over what it has left.
- Sufi epigram <))><

Email noles1@totcon.com

[This message has been edited by Marge Tindal (03-21-2005 04:57 PM).]

Denise
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73 posted 2005-03-21 09:23 PM


Dr. Hammesfahr is on Hannity and Colmes right now, the doctor I quoted above.
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74 posted 2005-03-21 10:27 PM


Ali, I know how you feel. I have to leave the room when they come on with their predictable comments about the Congressional action. The very ones who otherwise think that the government has every right to insert itself into our lives, layering it endlessly with their regulations, all of a sudden are outraged that Congress would involve itself when it comes to attempting to save an innocent life from a cruel death by starvation and dehydration.

Marge, I thought about doing that but I couldn't hold out. I guess my sugar levels drop quickly because I get sick if I don't eat on time.

Yes, continuing to pray...


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75 posted 2005-03-21 10:51 PM


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43393

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20400


SEA
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76 posted 2005-03-21 11:58 PM


my prayers are constant....
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77 posted 2005-03-22 01:48 PM


They were denied again.. so Terry will starve to death, thanks to the Judicial system of the United States.

We should all be ashamed of ourselves.

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

SEA
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78 posted 2005-03-22 05:16 PM


I don't think I have anything to be ashamed of....

now that "husband" and judge sure as heck do...

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79 posted 2005-03-22 07:05 PM


We as a nation, I mean....
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80 posted 2005-03-22 08:31 PM


As Terri said to a friend while visiting her grandmother in a nursing home..."Where there is life there is hope."

It's not over yet.

Whittemore did not give the family the de novo hearing that they had requested. He simply, as did all the other judges that they have come before in the past, basically said they had no case or standing before the law and in his opinion they had no hope of prevailing due to that fact. He did not review the FACTS of the case. He did not consider the allegations of abuse and neglect by her guardian, nor the probable cause evidence of spousal abuse, nor the conflict of interest of the guardian which makes suspect his assertions on Terri's behalf.

Hopefully justice will prevail and we will not have to witness the legalized murder of one of the weakest members of our society because she is viewed as an inconvenient non-productive member of society.

This is more than a feeding tube being pulled. The judge also ordered that she couldn't be fed and hydrated orally.

She is not being "allowed to die". Let's call it was it is. She is being starved and dehydrated to death by a court order. No disease or illness will cause her demise. Lack of what we all need to survive, food and water, will do the job, if her feeding tube is not reinserted, or if it is not ordered that she be fed and hydrated orally. And that is murder.

And the question is not whether we think Terri would rather live or die (and all anyone can do is speculate since we only have the word of her conflicted husband as to her wishes) in her condition. The question is not whether or not we think we would want to live or die in a similar debilitated condition. The question is whether or not, in the absence of a written advance directive, does a court have the right to order someone's death due to a physical disability. Is this the precedent that we want to have set, the kind of power that we want to yield to the judiciary?

I would urge everyone to email Jeb Bush and President Bush and urge them to use their executive powers to place Terri into protective custody pending the outcome of the appeal process and pending the Justice Department investigation and the DCF investigation into the circumstances surrounding the myriad of issues in this matter.

jeb.bush@myflorida.com

president@whitehouse.gov


Denise
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81 posted 2005-03-22 08:36 PM


And let's continue to pray for Terri and for her family.

Thanks so much.

Denise
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82 posted 2005-03-22 08:56 PM


Here is a new petition that I forgot to post earlier.
http://www.justicecoalition.org/petition2.htm


Here is a link to an article about a nurse who took care of Terri for over a year and whose sworn testimony was simply ignored by Judge Greer, along with all the sworn testimony of anyone who ever testified on behalf of keeping Terri alive. I believe she will be on Hannity and Colmes, which starts in about 5 minutes.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43427


TexUS
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83 posted 2005-03-22 10:56 PM


Denise, you are amazing.
THANK YOU for all the information,
and your tireless efforts in getting
it out there...



Denise
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84 posted 2005-03-23 06:44 AM


You're welcome, Tex.

I woke up to the news that the emergency appeal to the 11th Circuit has been denied. My heart breaks for Terri and her family.

I don't hold out any hope that the Supreme Court will come to her rescue either. She will never get the de novo hearing that the family requested, because the judiciary is bent out of shape that the Congress sent the case to them in the first place. So now all the liberals and Democrats who suddenly care about States' rights can sleep a little better now. How dare anyone question the decision of the State courts! Except of course when convicted criminals are sentenced to death. Their appeals have plenty of merit. Judges are the supreme rulers of the land.

This is where the slippery slope has brought us. First it became acceptable to withdraw extraordinary means of life support from the terminally ill, at their advance written direction. Then it became acceptable to withdraw extraordinary means of life support from the terminally ill without their advance written direction. Now we have come to the point where it is apparantly acceptable to withdraw FOOD & WATER from the disabled who are not even ill because we have determined that their quality of life does not meet some acceptable standard, and by order of a court, no less. How shameful.

My friend's son would be dead now by these standards. But after years of intense therapy and loving care (something demonstrably not afforded to Terri by her "husband"), after being run over by a motorcycle at the age of 5 and suffering severe brain damage, he is in his third year of college, where he lives on campus AND is on the Dean's List. Sure, he looks funny, talks funny and walks funny, but he's alive and happy and productive.

Please continue to pray for Terri and her family.

Sometimes justice isn't done in this world. But God can even use the injustice of man to a glorious end.

Thank you.




Denise
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85 posted 2005-03-23 06:59 AM


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43439
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43447

Marge Tindal
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86 posted 2005-03-23 08:39 AM


Denise~
My heart breaks along with yours that no stay of execution has been given Terri on this round~

Still praying so hard for her and her blood family~
Thank you, dear friend, for letting others know about Terri's plight ... so many go uninformed for too long of the atrocities happening in our REAL WORLD~

Love you~
~*Marge*~

~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost,
the spirit rejoices over what it has left.
- Sufi epigram <))><

Email noles1@totcon.com

Denise
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87 posted 2005-03-23 07:01 PM


Still praying too, Marge, for a miracle and for justice.

And now the latest? A Florida judge has forbidden the DCF to take Terri into protective custody?


Denise
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88 posted 2005-03-23 07:16 PM


Excerpts from Starved for Justice by Ann Coulter:

quote:
Liberals' newfound respect for "federalism" is completely disingenuous. People who support a national policy on abortion are prohibited from ever using the word "federalism."

I note that whenever liberals talk about "federalism" or "states' rights," they are never talking about a state referendum or a law passed by the duly elected members of a state legislature – or anything voted on by the actual citizens of a state. What liberals mean by "federalism" is: a state court ruling. Just as "choice" refers to only one choice, "the rule of law" refers only to "the law as determined by a court."

Just once, we need an elected official to stand up to a clearly incorrect ruling by a court. Any incorrect ruling will do, but my vote is for a state court that has ordered a disabled woman to be starved to death at the request of her adulterous husband.

Florida state court Judge George Greer – last heard from when he denied an order of protection to a woman weeks before her husband stabbed her to death – determined that Terri would have wanted to be starved to death based on the testimony of her husband, who was then living with another woman. (The judge also took judicial notice of the positions of O.J. Simpson, Scott Peterson and Robert Blake.) The husband also happened to be the only person present when the oxygen was cut off to Terri's brain in the first place. He now has two children with another woman.

Greer has refused to order the most basic medical tests for brain damage before condemning a woman to death. Despite all those years of important, searching litigation we keep hearing about, Terri has yet to receive either an MRI or a PET scan – although she may be allowed to join a support group for women whose husbands are trying to kill them.

Greer has cut off the legal rights of Terri's real family and made her husband (now with a different family) her sole guardian, citing as precedent the landmark "Fox v. Henhouse" ruling of 1893. Throughout the process that would result in her death sentence, Terri was never permitted her own legal counsel. Evidently, they were all tied up defending the right to life of child-molesting murderers.

Given the country's fetishism about court rulings, this may be a rash assumption, but I presume if Greer had ordered that Terri Schiavo be shot at her husband's request – a more humane death, by the way – the whole country would not sit idly by, claiming to be bound by the court's ruling because of the "rule of law" and "federalism." President Bush would order the FBI to protect her and Gov. Bush would send in the state police.

What was supposed to be the "least dangerous" branch has become the most dangerous – literally to the point of ordering an innocent American woman to die, and willfully disregarding congressional subpoenas. They can't be stopped – solely because the entire country has agreed to treat the pronouncements of former ambulance-chasers as the word of God. The only power courts have is that everyone jumps when they say "jump." (Also, people seem a little intimidated by the black robes. From now on we should make all judges wear lime-green leisure suits.)


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43464


Denise
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89 posted 2005-03-23 07:55 PM


Please email President Bush and Governor Bush and ask them to immediately take Terri Schiavo into protective custody. They both have the executive power to do that. They are both sworn to uphold the Constitution, and the foremost right is the right to life. A thousands courts can rule otherwise. That doesn't make them correct.

president@whitehouse.gov

jeb.bush@myflorida.com

Please, let's do all we can to save Terri from this judicial homicide.

Denise
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90 posted 2005-03-23 08:14 PM


Excerpts from an open letter to Governor Bush:

FL.S.765.309 Mercy killing or euthanasia not authorized;(1) Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to condone,authorize, or approve mercy killing or euthanasia, or to permit any affirmative or deliberate act or omission to end life other than to permit the natural process of dying.

A JUDGE CANNOT NULLIFY LAW

Floridians expect you to save Terri's life because this the only moral and legal thing to do.

The option you now have is granted to the DCF under FL.S. 415.1051 to go take possession of a disabled adult that is being abused.

After the DCF takes Terri into custody with the FDLE which they are authorized to do, you should immediately appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the allegations of criminal abuse and guardianship laws.

I know that you have only 2 boundaries to your authority, they are the United States Constitution and the Florida Constitution.

As Chief Law Enforcement Officer you possess the authority to enforce the laws of Florida which are being violated by Michael Schiavo against Terri, a Florida citizen & a disabled adult.


http://www.theempirejournal.com/03220502_reader_speaks_out_to_go.htm


Denise
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91 posted 2005-03-24 01:21 AM


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43470
ESP
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92 posted 2005-03-24 01:49 AM


I don't understand why they don't put the nutrition tube back in, if there is so much evidence that she has been wrongly diagnosed as being in persistent vegitative state, that she isn't terminally ill or suffering as a result of being kept alive. I know alot also depends on financial issues of being able to keep her alive but I bet her family would sacrifice what it took if need be. I think legally starving and dehydrating somebody to death is abhorrent, it is no better than torture--in fact it is a type of torture.

Denise--I have been following this thread closely from across the seas, and really applaud your efforts in fighting the injustice. If "I didn't know" can't be an excuse, that is already a good thing and must help the cause as well as all the petitions and letters.

Thank you for fighting the system, cos it sure does need fighting in this case.

"Time has told me not to ask for more, one day our ocean will find its shore" ~Nick Drake

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93 posted 2005-03-24 11:06 AM



And once more Terri's fight for the right to LIVE is denied by the judicial system~
No Stay of Execution by the Supreme Court~
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7283607/

Why am I reminded of the last days of Christ upon this earth ?

The Judas' have spoken ... the cross is again in place for Terri Schiavo ... and her walk to that final resting place gets shorter and more inhumanely cruel with each passing hour~

Save a cross for each of the thieves of her life !!

I pray for mercy ... tender, tender mercy~

~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost,
the spirit rejoices over what it has left.
- Sufi epigram <))><

Email noles1@totcon.com

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94 posted 2005-03-24 11:42 AM


Amen to everthing.

Denise, where is the article or document where it says that Terri's husband had an affair and she had life insurance? There were two horrible and misinformed editorials in the university paper, stating that this was an "act of love by a loving husband"

I got tears of pain and anger in my eyes as I read it, and I want to submit a rebuttal. Even if Terri must perish, which I hope she doesn't, lets not let her life be in vain.

Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our debts...

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

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95 posted 2005-03-24 01:21 PM


Well, I guess it's all over but the dying. After all is said and done, after all of the political rhetoric has been discarded, these facts remain clear...

A woman who is not terminal, who is not on life support with the exception of a feeding tube, who would not die if that tube were not to be removed, who has been in hospice for five years, almost unheard of, a woman who has a family willing and ready to care for her....is going to die because others state she has no quality of life and would be better off dead.

Pandora's box has been re-opened. Let's see what comes out in the future....

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96 posted 2005-03-24 03:11 PM


This is a serious blow to the individual dignity of people with disabilities.  Families already struggle daily against the diminution of the value of a disabled child's life ... now it appears the state has diminished the significance of the disabled person's death.

Jim

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97 posted 2005-03-24 05:49 PM


May as well see a picture of the woman the courts have decreed has no quality of life and deserves to be killed.



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98 posted 2005-03-24 06:04 PM


And then there's Michael's lawyer, denouncing the neurologist who sided with Terri as being part of a Christian group with hidden agendas with bio-ethicists.  Guess that lawyer forgot about their own specialist, who's a spokesman for the Hemlock Society and gives speaking engagements endorsing euthenasia.  And it's that specialist that Judge Greer took a shine to.
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99 posted 2005-03-24 08:31 PM


I hope the fighting of everyone helps to save her life, ESP. I've been following her plight for about 3 years now. I never actually thought that the husband and judge would succeed in their efforts to starve her to death. The very thought of it is just such an affront to common decency that it borders on the surreal. Governor Bush has filed an appeal of his blocked custody order. I hope he can somehow get custody of her.

Marge, the husband and judge picked a great time to put the family through all this excruciating agony, not that any time would ever be a good time, but did they pick this time of year to maximize their agony? The husband has even issued orders almost daily to lock out the parents, brother and sister from seeing her for up to five hours at a time. Is there no end to this man's cruelty?
And immediately upon her death he has had a standing order for years at a local funeral home to have her immediately cremated, no autopsy, and is having her ashes sent back home to her hometown near me. The parent's won't even be able to see her after she dies. I guess that will teach them that they never should have argued with him back in 1993 about his not allowing their daughter to have any rehabilitative therapy or antibiotics for her urinary tract infections.

Erica, I’ve read it in several stories, some at the family’s website in articles by their lawyers. I’ve read it in several articles at blogsforterri and related sites. Here is one article from The Empire Journal, which is doing an excellent job of investigative journalism into all the corruption and collusion surrounding the case of those in the Clearwater area. It’s a real eye-opener, provides lots of information that may lead to possible answers to the questions of WHY? of  this horrible situation:

Michael has admitted being involved with multiple women since Terri's illness and has lived in adultery with a woman since 1996; they have two children.
http://www.theempirejournal.com/03080514_national_womens_group_p.htm

He was even involved with a woman in 1991 prior to and during the malpractice suit that he won, where he stated that his marriage vows were of paramount importance to him. Terri’s lawyers have her sworn affidavit that Michael told her at that time that he had no idea what Terri would have wanted since they were both only in their twenties and never talked about death.  She also stated that after they broke up he stalked her and once even ran her off the road. Of course, Judge Greer ignored and discounted her sworn affidavit as well as every other one ever submitted on Terri’s behalf to prove that Michael should not continue to be her guardian and affidavits submitted contradicting Michael’s and his brother and sister-in-law’s claims that Terri said she would not want to be kept alive by extraordinary means.
http://www.blogsforterri.com/

Here is the family’s site: http://www.terrisfight.net/

You will find plenty of rebuttal evidence all over the place.

Michael, yes it is a travesty of justice. It is a mockery of justice. It is a perfect example of an arrogant judiciary that believes it is above the law. It looks evil, it even feels evil.

Thanks for sharing the picture. She is beautiful, isn't she?

Jim, I can't think of anything that diminishes the rights of the disabled more than this. The damage that one group of people in Clearwater can do to decades of legislation on behalf of the disabled is mind boggling.

Ali, yes, the "expert" doctor that Felos hired is a pro-death, pro-physician assisted suicide advocate and lecturer. Bur Greer saw no bias in his testimony. Unreal. Greer is also a right to die advocate, as is Felos and Michael Schiavo, as are most of the powerful influential people in Clearwater. Is it a coincidence that the Church of Scientology has its world headquarters in that city? They don't believe that the "defective" (sick and disabled) of society have any rights. L. Ron Hubbard's philosophies are very easy to authenticate by doing a search on his name. Curious, the "expert" doctor has said the same thing in past lecture papers that he has written. No, but the only bias you hear about is the supposed bias of anyone saying that she isn't PVS, and that she should at least be given a PET scan and MRI to validate such an assertion, but Michael Schiavo and Judge Greer have always denied that request too. Neurologists believe these are essential tools in making such a diagnosis, and I would think expecially in Florida where it is now legal to pull someone's feeding tube if they are PVS. Greer went beyond the pale, even if it were proven that she were PVS, in ordering that no one could attempt to feed and hydrate her orally.

I refuse to give up hope until all hope is gone. I'm still praying that Governor Bush will do the right thing and take her into custody, reconnect her feeding tube and have the medical tests done that should have been done years ago.


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100 posted 2005-03-24 09:08 PM


More from Ann Coulter's article:


quote:
  
Democrats have called out armed federal agents in order to: 1) prevent black children from attending a public school in Little Rock, Ark. (National Guard), 2) investigate an alleged violation of federal gun laws in Waco, Texas (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms), and 3) deport a small boy to Cuba (Immigration and Naturalization Service).

So how about a Republican governor sending in the National Guard to stop an innocent American woman from being starved to death in Florida? Republicans like the military. Democrats get excited about the use of military force only when it's against Americans.

In two of the three cases mentioned above, the Democrats' use of force was in direct contravention of court rulings. Admittedly, this was a very long time ago – back in U.S. history when the judiciary was only one of the three branches of our government.

Democratic Gov. Orval Faubus called out the Arkansas National Guard expressly for purposes of defying rulings of the U.S. Supreme Court and lower federal courts.

The decadent buffoon Bill Clinton sent armed agents from the INS to seize a small boy from an American family – despite rulings by the majestic and infallible Florida courts granting custody of the boy to that very family.

None of these exercises of military force has gone down in history as a noble moment, but that's because of the underlying purpose of the force, not the fact that force was used.

To the contrary, what has gone down in history as a glorious moment for the republic was when President Dwight Eisenhower (Republican) called out military force of his own. In response to Gov. Faubus' abuse of the National Guard, Eisenhower simultaneously revoked Faubus' control of the National Guard and ordered the 101st Airborne Division to escort black students to school. (Minutes later, Democrats pronounced the Arkansas public schools a "hopeless quagmire" and demanded to know what Ike's exit strategy was.)

As important as it was to enforce the constitutional right to desegregated schools, isn't it also important to enforce Terri Schiavo's right to due process before she is killed by starvation?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43464


TexUS
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101 posted 2005-03-24 10:56 PM


Thank you Denise.

This is so heartbreaking.


You see that picture posted by Balladeer,
Terri smiling at her mother, and wonder,
how this can be happening?


HOW?


I can't wrap my mind around it...
and my heart grieves.



Denise
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102 posted 2005-03-24 11:16 PM


Neither can I, neither can I.
Denise
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103 posted 2005-03-24 11:21 PM


"The governor may not disregard that obligation even if a member of the judiciary has ordered otherwise," Kennedy said. "He is not bound by a court order that is at odds with a constitutional guarantee."

After all the "praying, petitioning, and lobbying," it comes down to this, Kennedy said: "Jeb Bush must choose between the clear mandate of Florida's constitution and a judiciary which, in this case, has acted in defiance of that state supreme law."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43481

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104 posted 2005-03-25 09:40 AM



Cruel ... crueler ... cruelest !!!!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7293186/

And on the off-chance you don't read all the way through the points on which Judge Whittemore denied this appeal - here's a *kicker* for you -
quote:
That state judge George Greer violated the Constitution's ban on "cruel and unusual punishment" by withholding nutrition. Whittemore said that applies only to people convicted of a crime.


Oh my God ... what a slap in the face !

Each hour brings more and more heartbreak~

~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost,
the spirit rejoices over what it has left.
- Sufi epigram <))><

Email noles1@totcon.com

Denise
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105 posted 2005-03-25 06:16 PM


I knew one of the judges would come out with that comment. They aren't "punishing" Terri, afterall, they are fulfilling her "wishes" (hearsay evidence that was accepted by Greer, despite the refutation of her family and friends). Criminals have more rights in our society than the disabled do.
Denise
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106 posted 2005-03-25 06:32 PM


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43493

Just a taste of the inpropriety that has surrounded this case.

Denise
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107 posted 2005-03-25 06:43 PM


Here is an article that outlines the entire 15 year saga.
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463

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108 posted 2005-03-25 07:34 PM


CNN is reporting that a judge may rule to give Terry nutrition to investigate her condition further.

Her family heard her trying to SAY "I want to live"........

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Denise
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109 posted 2005-03-25 08:02 PM


Hi Erica, that would be Judge Greer (who else?...who has failed for the forth or fifth time to recuse himself from the case at the requests of the family dating back a few years now, in violation of Florida statutes) who agreed to hear the testimony of the lawyer who was with Terri right before they removed the feeding tube. I read the story the night of the 18th. This is a last ditch effort to try to convince the judge that Terri didn't want to die. But there were reports that the attorneys for Michael Schiavo and the Judge gave mocking and disparaging looks at this hearsay evidence, in front of the parents, (only hearsay evidence by Michael is allowed, I'm sure). The parents requested an IV for fluids only at this point. Greer said he will issue a ruling by 12 Noon. These judges sure do love to waste time when they already know what they are going to rule ahead of time. They love "running out the clock".

There is no doubt how Greer will rule, who decided long ago that Terri will die.

Her only hope now is for Governor Bush to excerise his Executive authority under the Florida State Constitution, or for President Bush to issue an order pursuant to his authority due to the obvious and outrageous irregularities and blatant illegalities surrounding this case, of which they are both fully aware.

Let's see if either is the man of courage and character that they present themselves to be.


Denise
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110 posted 2005-03-25 08:05 PM


quote:
I want to be optimistic. I want to believe there is still some virility, some manhood, some courage, some godliness, some morality and some intestinal fortitude in public officials who could save her life with the stroke of a pen, with a phone call.

But as Terri, now in her eighth day of court-ordered starvation, weakens, I am forced to contemplate the strong possibility that this young lady may be purposely and torturously killed with the whole world watching.


Like Jesus, Terri was an innocent – at least for the last 15 years. By definition, she was virtually incapable of committing sin during her disability. Yet, she was treated more harshly than our society would ever treat even the most abominable serial killer.

Like Jesus, Terri was betrayed. She has her Judas. His name is Michael Schiavo. He claims he is starving her to death because that would be what Terri would want. And this specious, unsupported claim is the sole basis for starving to death a young handicapped woman denied rehabilitative efforts by her so-called "guardian."

Like Jesus, Terri's mother has been forced to watch this public execution helplessly. Imagine what this must be like for mother Mary Schindler. Can anyone reading my words today imagine watching your child starve to death by court order? Can you imagine what it must be like to be kept from your loving child in these hours by armed guards?

Like Jesus, Terri has her accusers. The high priests today wear black robes. Judge George Greer, an obscure county bureaucrat just a few weeks ago, is having his 15 minutes of fame at Terri's expense. Driven either by some blind ideological desire to pull the plug on handicapped people or in the death grip of fear of admitting a mistake, Greer was not so much a judge as he was the prosecutor and executioner. His supporting cast included the entire U.S. Supreme Court, the Florida Supreme Court and the entire 11th Circuit.

Like Jesus, Terri has her Herod. In this case, his name is U.S. District Judge James Whittemore, a Bill Clinton appointee who could have saved her or decided to hear the case himself. He could have listened to the will of Congress and the president of the United States. Instead, like Herod, he kicked the case back to Greer.

Like Jesus, Terri may, too, have her Pontius Pilate. It's not too late for Gov. Jeb Bush of Florida to avoid playing this role. He doesn't have to wash his hands of the matter. He has found no fault in the woman. He has spoken favorably of her and championed her plight. But he is uniquely positioned at this moment to save her. He, himself has already acknowledged he has the power and the legal authority to do it. He has even threatened to do it. But, like Pilate, he seems to be weighing the political implications of saving her life rather than using the scale of moral imperative.

I pray today Jeb Bush is reflecting on all this. I pray he has considered he has a big decision to make. I pray he listens to that still small voice in his heart that, I suspect, is speaking to him right now about this. I pray he is not distracted by the routine business of the governorship of his state to see this matter clearly. I pray he recognizes that if he washes his hands, pretending he did everything he could possibly do under the law, that he will become complicit in this horrible crime.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43489



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111 posted 2005-03-25 08:15 PM


Even governors and presidents have to obey the law, or at least they're supposed to obey the law.  Governor Bush has a restraining order against him, issued by Judge Greer.  So there really isn't anything Governor Bush can do without breaking the law.
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112 posted 2005-03-25 11:01 PM


Denise, it is Judge Greer... but hopefully he will have a change of heart. God was able to harden and soften the heart of Ramses for Moses and the slaves..

And Ali, you're right. I believe Gov. Bush wants Terry to live. Him and his team are working hard to find a way to do so. Checks and balances... usually a good thing. Sigh.

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
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Denise
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113 posted 2005-03-26 12:20 PM


Does anyone have to, morally, obey a court order that is itself a violation of the law in that it calls for the taking of a life, Ali?

We had quite a debate in here awhile back concerning civil disobedience and whether people are justified in ever going against a law. As I remember, all those who participated considered civil disobedience concerning the civil rights issue, the mayor of San Francisco marrying gay couples in violation of the State law, and anti-war protestors ignoring the conditions of their demonstration permits completely acceptable behavior.

I came down on the side of always obeying the law whether you agreed with it or not, that you should go the route of changing the system from within, orderly and legally, EXCEPT in the case of saving a life. This is exactly the type of situation I was talking about. Because of judicial tyranny by the Federal Courts refusal to obey the Congressional legislation, signed into LAW, granting the Schindler's a de novo hearing, and judicial misconduct by Judge Greer, who along with Geroge Felos and Michael Schiavo, with funding from the ACLU and the Hemlock Society, have brought this situation to a Constitutional crises, we have a woman about to die. Can we not even muster the same amount of moral outrage at this as we did over the civil rights abuses of the past?

Sure, he would technically be in contempt of court and could ruin his political aspirations, but what is that when weighed against the violation of the higher moral law, or natural law, not to kill?

The laws are meant to protect society. We don't put the law on a pedestal to the point of elevating it above the very lives that it was intended to protect. Laws have been wrong in the past, and this latest order by Judge Greer is in error, as was he initial order to put her to death, as was the conduct of the Federal courts.

Yes, Governor Bush can act. As the Chief Law Enforcement Officer, and Chief Executive of Florida he has a duty to act in light of Greer's conduct, in light of all the mounting evidence of his bias and misconduct involving this case, and in light of all the mounting circumstancial evidence of spousal abuse and perjury.

The Executive, legislative and judicial branches are co-EQUAL. We don't have a system where the  Executive and Legislative branches have to bow down to the Judicial branch under any and all circumstances, but where the judicial branch can ignore at will or whim the other two branches. It is in believing that that is the way it is supposed to be that we have what we have today, runaway judicial tyranny.

If a State or Federal court came out and ruled tomorrow (after years of litigation) that all disabled people who are dependent on feeding tubes are to be taken off of them immediately, for the good of society due to the expense of caring for them, for the sake of the hospitals and insurance companies, and for there own good too, because, really, who would want to live like that, what quality of life can they really experience, would we be bound to obey such a law because it was decreed by a court? Of course not. Well, that's what all the courts have just done to Terri Schiavo, and God knows how many other countless folks under the radar of the media.

And if Governor Bush refuses to fulfill his duties, then there is also plenty of federal misconduct concerning Terri Schiavo's hospice care (medicaid fraud) and similar charges against George Felos involving medicare and medicaid fraud with his involvement with Terri Schiavo and other "patients" at the Sun Coast hospice worthy of the Justice Department's current investigation (those were the subpoenas that Greer ignored) of the situation, and cause for President Bush to take Terri into custody as a Federal witness (or evidence if you prefer) in that investigation. Because as soon as Terri dies, the evidence will be gone as she will be cremated immediately upon her death, with no autopsy, at the instruction of her husband for which he conveniently requested and received of Greer a Court Order to ensure that it happens. They don't want to take the chance that it would be discovered that their contentions were incorrect all along in the diagnoses of PVS, which was their only legal grounds for doing to her what they are currently doing and for having her fraudulently in a hospice in the first place, being paid for by medicaid.

Both Governor Bush and President Bush have plenty of reason and authority to act. I also believe that they both want her to live, but enough to stand against the judiciary?

We'll see what they are made of.

A change of heart would be nice, Erica. But Terri might be dead by Noon tomorrow.

We'll see what comes next.  


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114 posted 2005-03-26 01:22 AM


Watching and praying..

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Denise
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115 posted 2005-03-26 07:52 AM


Yes, Erica, continuing to pray for Terri, her family and for courage for our leaders to do the right thing.


quote:
Open letter to Jeb Bush

Elizabeth Farah

Posted: March 26, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

Dear Gov. Bush:

You are in a difficult position. There are few men who find themselves in a situation such as yours. Quite literally, you are the only hope, the only person in the world who can save the life of this defenseless woman facing an unjust death.

I want to give you courage. I understand that advisers may point to polls and public opinion that seem to show most people believe the government should never have become involved in this conflict. While it is true these polls are misleading because the questions misinform the respondent in telling them that Terri is brain-dead, etc., the fact that public opinion is really not against you is of little importance. Let me tell you why.

The Lord God is truly on your side. You know the Scripture, "If God be for me who can be against me?" The Lord is always searching for "mighty men of valor" to do His work. You must instinctively know that Americans yearn for men of courage, principle and perseverance. We see over and over our leaders making an initial effort to do what is right and then, when the going gets tougher and the odds seem insurmountable, they feint. That lack of perseverance, determination and resolve has led to a lack of faith in our leaders.

You know that God is present in every situation. He never advocates injustice or any other evil. Only God has the authority to give and take innocent life. But He most often works through godly men and women, and he expects all believers to do His will regardless of the perceived cost. God has allowed this task to come to you. All life is a test, and this is clearly a test of your faith in God.

God loves you and will never test you beyond what you are able to do. But he tells us to take His yoke. He will carry you through this challenge. Don't rely upon yourself. There is a point at which we all throw up our hands and say, "I have done all I can." The pressure and stress seem overwhelming. But God says, if you have faith in Me I will do the work for you – I will give you victory. He promises that he wants only good for you:

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Jeremiah 29:11
But he expects you to trust in Him:
The LORD is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The LORD is the strength of my life, of whom shall I be afraid?

This trust isn't a belief that God exists, but a faith that God will always sustain us when we do His will, that he is a rewarder of those who seek His will and do it.

Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage, be not afraid, neither be dismayed: for the LORD your God is with you whithersoever you go. Joshua 1:9
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

You are the chief executive of the state of Florida. You are not the servant of an un-elected judiciary. You have been given power by the people of Florida to protect their rights and lives. Don't fail them!

Speak for those who cannot speak for themselves in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction. Proverbs 31:8
You've been given a gift of leadership. On one hand you probably think that the Schaivo case is a burden that you wish God had never given you. But think of this – God has entrusted you with the honor of responsibility. He expects you to do much because He has given you the opportunity and ability to do much.

For whom much is given, of him much shall be required. Luke 12:48
Moreover it is required in stewards that a man be found faithful. 1 Corinthians 4:2
I believe this culture of death that is now overtaking our country is fostered by a movement away from God.

In Proverbs God says, "All they that hate me love death." (Proverbs 8:36)

Gov. Bush, you have the right to exercise your authority to save this woman's life. You have the authority to reject a corrupt judge's corrupt decision. Remember when the pharoah issued the order that all Hebrew male infants should be killed? What did Moses' mother do? She broke the law of the civil authority. She saved the life of her son. This act of civil disobedience or lawbreaking gave her a place in the great chapter of the Bible known as the "Hall of Faith." Her courage was seen by God – not as lawlessness but as a supreme act of faith! (Hebrews 11:23)

Jesus says that yes, you will have many detractors – people who will revile you for doing the right thing, but you will be rewarded greatly by God.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad for great is your reward. Matthew 5:11, 12
… let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus … so that you may not grow weary and lose heart. Hebrews 12:1-3

Remember all the men and women of this country who are searching for leaders of courage. I have been profoundly affected by your obviously sincere concern for Terri Schiavo. I can see that you are deeply disturbed by her plight. I know I am right in believing you will always regret it if you don't do the right thing here. It will haunt you. I promise you, you will never regret fighting the good fight through to its end. People will follow that kind of a leader. People, even those who disagree with your politics, recognize the value of a man who will not compromise his principles.
May God bless you.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43506

Denise
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116 posted 2005-03-26 08:00 AM


Commentary by Ilana Mercer:

quote:
As she lay dying

I've yet to hear one liberal enunciate in the Terri Schiavo case the principle that moral law supersedes man's law. But whether they defer to reason or to revelation, I've heard scores of conservatives articulate the a priori truth in this case – which is:

Notwithstanding my own belief in the right to die, the only authority that has jurisdiction over Terri Schiavo is Terri Schiavo. In the absence of a living will or a clear directive from her, a court's decision – no matter which court – cannot be equated with her will. Ditto her husband's hearsay. We simply don't know – and can't divine – Terri's wishes, although it's reasonable to assume that if she wanted to die, she didn't wish for the death she's been dealt.

As a society, we have no right to decide Terri's fate; ours is an obligation to do her no harm – to uphold her right to life in the absence of a directive from her, and in the overwhelming presence of evidence she is being harmed. (How do cognitively competent people know Terri is being harmed? Hmm … let me see: Does being starved qualify – in the absence of clear, persuasive evidence one has requested such treatment?)

Federalism, discovered belatedly by liberals, is not the issue here; the right to life is. The level of decision-making is immaterial; what matters is the decision. Had a federal court found for her life, the decision ought to have been hailed as the right one – one consonant with natural justice. No one has the right to kill an innocent human being. By logical extension, it matters not who saves her – which state or federal official – just so long as someone does.

For natural rights antedate the state apparatus. Although federalism is an excellent principle, it is not a religion. Predicating Terri's right to life, as it has been, on the outcomes of a judicial review is to concede that the courts have a right to deny her life. As I've written, to the extent the law upholds natural rights, it's good; to the extent it violates the right to life, liberty and property – it's bad. In this particular case, it doesn't matter who upholds the right to life, just so long as someone does.

Terri's condition is yet another irrelevance: The party that wants to err in favor of killing says she is in a "persistent vegetative state." The cautious camp claims she is "minimally conscious." Like federalism, Terri's medical condition is also immaterial in this particular case, the premise of which is that her right to life depends on state-of-the-art medical expertise.

Aside from having a hard time disguising their collective God Complex, most doctors are reductionists. They think squiggles on a machine are an accurate map of the whole person. That a person is more than the sum of his or her parts is not a proposition they often entertain. For example, it took doctors a long time to "discover" what mothers have known all along: Newborns do a great deal with their heavy, wobbly heads. In response to stimuli, my own 3-week-old girl used to crack a broad smile. Her pediatrician (this was admittedly a while ago) cautioned she was windy, not amused. Naturally, when the jovial child began chuckling at three months (to this day she finds her mother a scream), shoulders shaking and all, I didn't tell him. Who knows what St. Vitus' dance he'd have diagnosed?

The point being, the (disputed) state of Terri's cerebral cortex does not give the state the right to cause her death.

If the case of poor Terri Schiavo has taught me anything it is how utterly loathsome liberals are. In their ever-so "progressive" zeal for euthanasia, they've discovered principles for which they've hitherto had nothing but contempt. In the liberal vernacular, states' rights are synonyms for discrimination, that is, until Ms. Schiavo. Now Democrats shriek louder than Dixiecrats ever did that the intervention by a federal court in a so-called state (or personal) matter undermines this "cherished" principle. (So they know about the 10th Amendment?)

The only kind of marriage liberals had ever glorified is the gay kind. But thanks to Michael Schiavo, the sanctity of marriage is fast becoming a liberal sacrament, with the proviso it has to involve "mercy killing." It took Michael Schiavo's devoted efforts to starve and dehydrate his wife to restore liberal faith in the institution. As we know, liberals, inexplicably, have insisted over and over again that Terri Schiavo's husband is his helpless wife's sole and indisputable guardian. Furthermore, to liberals, males have always been the guilty party in just about any heterosexual interaction. Michael's monstrous single-mindedness has changed all that.

"We are a nation of laws" is the latest – not last – in liberal two-facedness. The law, after "due process," has sentenced Ms. Schiavo to death, therefore die she must. Illegal aliens are trampling the rule of law and states' rights as we speak. Show me a Democrat who'll support the right of state residents to refuse to teach or medically treat these lawbreakers.

Consider the liberals' "let nature take its course" chant. They generally believe "nature," the animal kingdom in particular, is the appropriate metaphor for civilization. It would apparently do humans a whole lot of good to imbibe even more animal "ethics" than we already practice.

What distinguishes civilized beings from animals, primitive societies and liberals is that they don't see nature as an exemplar of all that is fine and good. To the contrary: The civilized don't abandon the burdensome or the enfeebled to nature. When some of us do, others will always strive to rescue them.

The tragedy of Terri is a testament to how irreconcilable certain liberal leanings are with civilization itself.



http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43500


Denise
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117 posted 2005-03-26 08:19 AM


Sorry for the double post. It didn't show for me the first time despite refreshing several times.
Denise
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118 posted 2005-03-26 08:34 AM


quote:
Political corruption alleged in Schiavo case
Criminal probes reportedly shut down despite investigators' concerns

Posted: March 26, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Diana Lynne
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

As Terri Schiavo enters what are thought to be her last hours of life, allegations of political corruption and obstruction of justice on the part of state officials raise questions as to whether the brain-injured woman's court-ordered death by starvation might serve to cover up crimes committed against her.

Criminal probes launched by two Florida agencies looking into allegations the incapacitated woman was abused, neglected and exploited were shut down, despite investigators' concerns.

One investigation took place at the Department of Children and Families, or DCF, in late 2001. The other was conducted by agents with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, or FDLE, in August 2003.
Both agencies are mandated by Florida Statutes 415 and 825 to detect and correct the abuse, neglect, and exploitation of the elderly or disabled adults.

The individual whose 700-page anonymous complaint prompted the DCF to conduct a 60-day investigation into numerous alleged violations of state statutes protecting disabled and incapacitated people tells WND the DCF investigator gave him the impression he thought the allegations were credible and he was sorry the probe got aborted by his superiors.

The complainant, who wishes to remain unnamed, tells WND he spent numerous hours over a period of several weeks working with the DCF adult protective services investigator after filing his complaint in November 2001.

"It was clear to me that he found credibility in most, if not all, the charges," the complainant said of the investigator.

But when the investigator turned his report in to his superiors, he reportedly hit a brick wall.

"It went up the ladder. It crashed. The report findings were marked 'Unfounded but With Recommendations,'" the complainant recalls the investigator telling him.

When the complainant expressed disbelief at the outcome and asked what "with recommendations" meant, he says the investigator became tight-lipped.

"I've said too much. All I can say is keep up the fight," the investigator said.

At the time, DCF attorney Frank Nagatani publicly declared: "DCF is not going to get involved [in the Terri Schiavo case] until this is out of the court."

Florida Department of State Election records show Nagatani contributed to the 1998 election campaign of 6th Judicial Circuit Court Judge George Greer, the primary adjudicator in the Terri Schiavo case. While no records exist detailing the amount of Nagatani's total contribution, according to Greer's reported campaign expenditures, Nagatani was paid $18.75 on Aug. 11, 1998 for a "partial contribution refund."

WorldNetDaily reported Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, also donated to Greer's re-election campaign. The $250 contribution was made by Felos' law firm, Felos & Felos, on May 7, 2004 – one day after Pinellas County Circuit Court Judge Douglas Baird ruled "Terri's Law" unconstitutional.

Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, have been locked in a 7-year court battle with her estranged husband, Michael Schiavo, over her fate.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43509

Denise
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119 posted 2005-03-26 09:20 AM



quote:
Killing Terri Schiavo

Thomas Sowell (archive)

March 24, 2005 |


People who say that the government has no business interfering in a private decision like removing Terri Schiavo's feeding tube somehow have no problem with a squad of policemen preventing her parents (or anyone else) from giving their daughter food or water.

Do those who want to keep the government out of private decisions think that the police are not the government? Do they think that the judges who authorized this are not the government?

Sadly, this is not the only Alice-in-Wonderland confusion of words and deeds in this tragic case.

We are being told that Terri Schiavo is being "allowed" to "die a natural death." Such an argument might make some sense if this were a terminally ill person. But Terri Schiavo is not dying from anything other than a lack of food and water, from which any of the rest of us would die.

She is not dying a natural death. She is being killed.

What is being kept alive artificially is the liberal media version of events. One side of this story is being repeated endlessly, as if it were gospel, but anyone saying something different -- including doctors and nurses who have actually seen or taken care of Terri Schiavo -- is unlikely to be reported.

The nature of death by starvation and dehydration is also being depicted as "gentle" in the words of the New York Times -- the same New York Times which in 2002 reported starving people in India dying "clutching pained stomachs."

This "gentle" death is the story line in the liberal media but a priest who has actually seen Terri Schiavo tells a wholly different story of her visibly deteriorating condition. If this is such an easy death, why not videotape it and show those of us who are less enlightened how mistaken we are? Instead, there is a ban on anyone's photographing Terri as she dies.

Despite the oft-repeated claim that Terri Schiavo is being "allowed" to die, supposedly in accordance with her own wishes, the only person who says that these were her wishes is the one person who wants her dead and who personally stands to benefit from her death -- her husband, Michael Schiavo.

When Sean Hannity said this on the Fox News channel's "Hannity & Colmes" program, he was assured by a lawyer who was defending the removal of the feeding tube that Michael Schiavo was not the only one to hear Terri say this. But, when Hannity demanded to know the name of just one other person, the lawyer followed an old lawyer's maxim: "When your case is weak, shout louder!" He shouted and waxed indignant -- but did not produce the name of any other person.

This case is one where many people speak with certainty about very uncertain things -- and the certainties of one side contradict the certainties of the other.

Many seem certain that Terri Schiavo is vegetative, does not understand what is going on around her and cannot respond. But Carla Sauer Iyer, a nurse who attended Mrs. Schiavo for more than a year, has contradicted all of this. Moreover, she has painted a very different picture of Michael Schiavo than the one he presents to the courts and to the media.

But you are not likely to find her eyewitness account of events in the mainstream media.
According to this nurse, Michael Schiavo complained that his wife wasn't dying fast enough -- only the word he used was not wife or woman but a word that cannot be repeated in a family newspaper.

The nurse's sworn statement, under penalty of perjury, is that she reported to the police that she had found Terri in both medical and emotional distress after a closed door visit by her husband -- and that she also found a vial of insulin, as well as needle marks on Terri, after Michael Schiavo's visit.

The same mainstream media that will scour the country to find individuals to quote in support of killing Terri Schiavo will not lift a finger to investigate the chilling charges this nurse filed with the police years ago. It might disturb the picture they are trying to paint.

Terri Schiavo is being killed because she is inconvenient to her husband and because she is inconvenient to those who do not want the idea of the sanctity of life to be strengthened and become an impediment to abortion. Nor do they want the supremacy of judges to be challenged, when judges are the liberals' last refuge.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20050324.shtml


Killing Terri – Part II http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20050325.shtml

LoveBug
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120 posted 2005-03-26 02:26 PM


Thank you for the info, Denise.

Sigh.. The judge denied the request again.

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Denise
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121 posted 2005-03-26 06:41 PM


You're welcome, Erica.

Indeed he did. And he waited until 12:10 PM to make the announcement, after telling the family's attorney that he may rule well before that time as his reason for ignoring the request to allow Terri to have at least an IV in the meantime until the ruling comes down, leading them to believe that a ruling could come at any moment throughout the night, the same tactic employed by most of the other courts during this past week. In addition to being exhausted by all the stress involved in attempting to save their daughter's life, these judges are so cruel and arrogant as to add to their distress with these time games that they have been playing. I doubt the family has slept much at all this past week waiting for supposed "imminent" rulings. I know I haven't. I go to sleep thinking about it, leaving on the TV just in case an order is announced, and wake up thinking about it.

I have been particulary nauseated today listening to many of the talking heads on TV still mischaracterizing Terri's condition as PVS, as if there were no credible assertions to the contrary by upwards of 33 physicians, more than half of whom are board certified neurologists, as if Terri has had the testing required to even make or confirm that diagnosis, and as if over 38% of those diagnosed with PVS are later declared to have been misdiagnosed.

I've also been sickened and angered by the media spin and Felos's spin about the family waiting until last night to tell Judge Greer about Terri trying to say "I want to live", implicating that it was a false statement. I personally read that statement by Barbara Weller the same evening of the day that the feeding tube was removed on March 18th. And here is the proof:  (notice the date of the report)
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43383

She immediately left the hospice after it happened and announced it in a press conference outside stating that she had promised Terri that she would tell the whole world that Terri had tried to say it. Her attorney said they didn't bring it immediately to Greer until last night because they had intended to bring in the sworn affidavit as evidence in the Federal proceedings, as they were trying to obtain the de novo hearing as authorized by Congress all week long, being denied twice by each court in the process, the right granted to them by Congress, and finally petitioned to see Greer again when it became clear that the Federal courts were effectively shutting them out and would not hear anything about the case and they would not be able to present that or any other evidence that contradicts Michael Schiavo's and George Felos's contentions. So they again went back to Greer when all else failed.

And a word about George Felos' news conference this afternoon...it was classic Scientology spin about dying by starvation and dehydration being a peaceful, painless experience. He said he had never seen her looking so beautiful and peaceful and serene. If those assertions were even close to being true then we shouldn't worry ourselves about all the starving people in the world, should we? Just forget about trying to feed them and let them have this beautiful peaceful experience, if that's what it really is. It was just a blatant attempt to undermine the truth of Terri's condition being reported daily by the family that loves her and the agony that they are experiencing watching her deteriorate. He went so far as to say the family was lying about Terri's condition in order to foment anger in the general public. Bobby Schindler came out later and said let the video cameras in and it will become quite clear which side is lying. And Bobby also said that Michael Schiavo and Felos won't allow that, for the same reason they have forbidden any cameras for the past five years, because it would prove that they are mischarcterizing his sister's condition about being PVS, and now about dying a peaceful death. Felos covered the topic of the possibility of cameras already earlier by saying in response to a reporter that no cameras will be allowed to protect Terri's right to privacy. Terri's right to privacy needs protecting, but her life doesn't.

Denise
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122 posted 2005-03-26 07:38 PM


quote:
  LIFE AND DEATH TUG OF WAR

Terri's money used to pay for starvation death

Once well-provided for, disabled woman now dependent on taxpayers

Posted: March 26, 2005
11:45 a.m. Eastern

By Sarah Foster
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
When a jury awarded brain-disabled Terri Schindler-Schiavo over $1 million in a medical malpractice suit against her two physicians in 1992, it did so believing the money would be used to pay for the brain-injured woman's long-term care and rehabilitation.

But instead of the therapy he promised he'd provide for Terri, her estranged husband, Michael Schiavo, 41, who is also her legal guardian, used most of the money to pay attorneys to arrange his wife's death ­and he did this with full court approval.

The money awarded Terri was placed in a trust fund and a judge approved all expenditures ­ from pedicures to attorney bills. The latter has skyrocketed over the years, as Terri's parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, battled their son-in-law in the Florida courts over their daughter's right to live.

By June 2001, the trust fund money had dwindled to $350,000. Today, just $40,000 to $50,000 remains.

Deborah Bushnell, who has represented Schiavo since 1993 in a series of legal skirmishes with the Schindlers, this month told Associated Press she has been paid $80,309 since becoming involved in the case. "Right to die" advocate and attorney George Felos, who was surreptitiously hired by Schiavo in 1997 to win court approval for Terri's death by removing her feeding tube, has been paid $348,434, according to Bushnell. Informed sources say an additional $50,000 should be added, to include legal costs that Bushnell did not include in the figure she gave.

Four years ago the St. Petersburg Times reported that records showed Felos was paid more than $200,000 between 1997 and June 2001, while Bushnell netted $27,000 between 1993 and June 2001 – which means she has been paid over $50,000 in just four years. Schiavo, too, was reimbursed $6,000 for legal costs.

The fees include not only standard attorney services, such as preparing briefs and taking depositions, but thousands of dollars for “dealing with the media,” records show. The payoff has been the continuous slanting of news stories in newspapers and on television of the battle over Terri’s life, beginning after the trial in 2000.

Both attorneys claim they have not been paid since 2002, but Felos recently admitted to the St. Petersburg Times that the American Civil Liberties Union is helping underwrite Schiavo's litigation.

Spending Terri's money in litigation is highly unusual, according to Pat Anderson, who represented the Schindlers in their fight with Schiavo from 2001 through most of 2004.



You can read the entire story here:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43510

Denise
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123 posted 2005-03-26 10:59 PM


The Florida Supreme Court has also denied their last appeal tonight. Our system of "justice" has failed miserably for this family, who only asked to be able to take care of their disabled daughter instead of having her put to death. Who would have ever thought that this could happen in America?

Let's keep them is our prayers for strength to face what may come. They are in agony right now, understandably. And also to continue to pray that someone with authority will act to do the right thing. It may just take a miracle.

I wish you and yours a blessed Easter.

Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush afire with God, but only he who sees takes off his shoes.
Elizabeth Barrett Browning

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124 posted 2005-03-26 11:16 PM


"He said he had never seen her looking so beautiful and peaceful and serene. If those assertions were even close to being true then we shouldn't worry ourselves about all the starving people in the world, should we?"

So true, Denise.

Sigh.

I hate people. I really do.

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Denise
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125 posted 2005-03-26 11:57 PM


I hate what has become of this country due to judicial tyranny. Combined with a disregard for the sanctity of human life you have pure insanity.
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126 posted 2005-03-27 08:54 AM


OhDenise~
On this Holiest of Holy days ... I, too, have feelings of hatred for what continues to happen to Terri Schiavo~

This is despicable -
quote:
Paul O’Donnell, a Roman Catholic Franciscan monk, said the family unsuccessfully urged Michael Schiavo to allow his wife the sacrament of communion during the holiest day of the Catholic year. She received last rites the day the feeding tube was pulled.'

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7293186/




Marge Tindal
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127 posted 2005-03-27 10:47 AM


Kate Adamson
quote:
"The measure of a society is how they treat the least of us. Life is sacred or meaningless, there is nothing in between."


Do you wonder just 'who' Kate Adamson is ?
This links at Terri's site will tell you not only 'who' she is, but exactly how her story relates to Terri Schiavo's right to LIVE~ http://www.terrisfight.net/

Thank the Good Lord Kate had a husband, in the truest sense of the word, who CARED about her and LOVED her beyond all measure~
quote:

Recovered "vegetative State" patient Kate Adamson Speaks Before Schiavo Rally
Withdrawal of food and water was "one of the most painful experiences you can imagine"

CLEARWATER, FL., March 14, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) - On Saturday a rally of over three-hundred of Terri Schiavo’s most die-hard supporters heard the first-hand account of the sufferings and remarkable recovery of Kate Adamson. Struck down in 1995 at the age of thirty-three by a rare double brainstem stroke, Kate, then a mother of two young girls, was completely paralyzed; she was unable even to blink her eyes. Like Terri Schiavo, the medical staff treating her questioned the merit of continuing granting Kate the most basic human right of food and water.

Terri Schiavo, although not nearly as severely disabled as Adamson once appeared to be, is slotted to have her feeding tube removed at 1:00 pm this Friday. Similarly, Kate Adamson’s feeding tube was at one point removed for a full eight days before being reinserted due to the intervention of her husband (also a competent lawyer).

Frequently described by medical authorities as a humane way to die, Kate - now as vibrant and beautiful as before her stroke - testified before the crowd of Terri’s family and supporters that this form of legalized execution was “one of the most painful experiences you can imagine." Unable to respond or to indicate awareness, Kate Adamson asserts, “I was just like Terri…but I was alive! I could hear every word. They were saying ‘shall we just not treat her?’...I suffered excruciating misery in silence.”

This personal testimony confirms what Terri supporters have long suspected—that the execution sought by her husband Michael Schiavo is anything but painless and humane. Furthermore, Kate’s remarkable recovery to nearly full mental and physical health—-she still suffers partial paralysis of her left side—-gives Terri supporters hope that Terri too may still experience a similar recovery, if granted proper care and treatment.

During her early-afternoon speech Kate declared that "If they want to kill Terri they should have the guts to put a gun to her head” rather than condemn her to such a slow and painful death. She finished off by summing up the full import of the Schiavo case, saying, “The measure of a society is how they treat the least of us. Life is sacred or meaningless, there is nothing in between."

Contact Kate Adamson by visiting http://www.katesjourney.com  

JJ
---------------------------------------------
(c) Copyright: LifeSiteNews.com is a production of Interim Publishing. Permission to republish is granted (with limitation*) but acknowledgement of source is *REQUIRED* (use LifeSiteNews.com).


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128 posted 2005-03-27 10:52 AM


there is a special kind of hell waiting for that man (Michael Schiavo)...you know....the same kind as was for Hitler...and others of like kind...the true monsters of this world.

I just don't understand how someone could be that cruel.

I am still praying for Terri...

Denise
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129 posted 2005-03-27 12:02 PM


The seeming success of the pro-euthenasia  and anti-right-to-life for the disabled and sick among us, whom they consider 'defective', and detrimental to society, is in that they managed to frame this controversy over Terri Schiavo as a right-to-die issue. It's not.

If this were a case with clear and convincing evidence that Terri would have wanted to die in this fashion it wouldn't have even made the news at all. No matter someone's personal convictions on end of life issues for themselves, each person has the right to decide those issues for themselves.

Judge Greer issued his edict of death on her on hearsay evidence that would never have been accepted in a criminal case, would never have even been accepted in the obtainment of a search warrent.

He issued his edict of death on her despite the mounds of sworn testimony and sworn affidavits of countless witnesses bearing witness to her husband's conflict of interest and his statements regarding his lack of knowledge of Terri's wishes that contradict his court testimony. I think they call that perjury? He even slipped on Larry King on March 18th, saying..."we don't know what Terri's wishes were, these are our wishes." Additionally, he ignored stacks of evidence, that the sheriff's department and Attorney General's office also ignored by refusing to investigate of probable cause of spousal abuse, which should have been investigated and taken into consideration in determining his continuing suitability to continue being her guardian.

He issued his edict of death on her despite the sworn affidavits and sworn testimony of countless doctors and neurologists, who were not paid for their testimony or affidavits, who vehemently disagree with the paid expert hired by Geroge Felos.

He issued his edict of death on her despite not having a PET scan, nor MRI, to validate the diagnosis.

This is about a woman being sentenced to die, with no clear and convincing evidence of her wishes. That a judge has declared that hearsay is clear and convincing evidence doesn't make it so. If a thousand judges concurred it still wouldn't make it so.

This issue is about a gross miscarriage of justice that seems will result in an innocent woman's death at the behest of her husband-in-name-only, in collusion with a whacko death advocate lawyer who finds beauty in the death by starvation and dehydration process, signed on by the husband when it became clear that Terri would not soon die of natural causes, who was also insturmental in lobbying for, and passage of, the 2001 legislation that declared that feeding tubes are 'medical treatment' in Florida, and can thus be withheld, and who, along with his associates, drained Terri's trust fund that was supposed to go for her care and rehabilitation, in their attempt to murder her.

That is what this is about, and that is why people are so passionate about it. It is a true travesty of justice, a violation of the inalienable right to life guaranteed in the Constitution, with more than enough evidence of neglect abuse and collusion to convince the most skeptical person that something is rotten in Clearwater.

And I am truly grieved that those in power who could do something about it have apparently chosen not to. I have lost all respect for them.

This is a sad day for Terri, for the Schindler family, and for all decent people who honor and cherish life and truth and justice.

And this tragedy has been brought to us, in part, by the ACLU, who has been funding Michael Schiavo's lawyers' attempts to kill Terri after the lawyers exhausted her account.

  

Denise
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130 posted 2005-03-27 01:10 PM


quote:
Too Bad Terri’s Not a Terrorist or a Condemned Murder 3/26/2005
By Jan LaRue, Chief Counsel

I’m fed up with liberal hypocrisy.

I’m a conservative Christian attorney who has practiced criminal and juvenile defense. I wholeheartedly advocate that no matter how heinous the crime, the accused must be afforded his or her constitutional rights. That includes appeals and writs of habeas corpus to obtain federal review after state court remedies have been exhausted. I support the rights of convicted criminals to have DNA testing that may prove their innocence, no matter how many courts have reviewed their cases.

Question: When it comes to Terri Schiavo, where are the usual liberal civil-rights advocates, the criminal defense bar, liberal law professors? A few are speaking out for Terri’s rights, but very few. And I applaud their consistency.

Everybody agrees that Terri’s wishes should be paramount, but why is a hearsay statement supposedly said 20 years ago credible? And why does anyone think that if she said it, she was talking about a feeding tube? Who considered food and water to be artificial life support back then?

What lawyer wouldn’t challenge probable cause for a search warrant based on the kind of stale and highly suspect hearsay that Judge Greer found to be clear and convincing evidence of Terri’s wishes, sufficient for him to order her death?

Where are those who file suit when some terrorist detainee in Guantanamo Bay didn’t get a cookie on his lunch tray or suffered the “torture” of having a guard dog growl at him? Where are those who file every motion, brief or appeal based on any and every argument they can think of in order to save the life of a serial murderer or a child-killer? Why aren’t they making arguments and filing briefs for Terri? They’ve either become mute or they’re in the media arguing against the kind of zealous advocacy on behalf of Terri that they regularly engage in.

And no surprise—where is the ACLU?—advocating for Terri’s death while they advocate for convicted murders who killed and sodomized a young boy in Massachusetts.

There’s constant harping about how many judges have reviewed Terri’s case. So what? None of them has reviewed the evidence to see if, as a matter of law, it’s sufficient to sustain the court’s orders. That’s what Congress ordered to be done in “Terri’s law.” But it wasn’t.

Suddenly it’s all about state rights and limiting review to state courts and federalism. And how dare Congress interfere by enacting a statute that gives Terri the same kind of federal review that Scott Peterson will have? The reason “Terri’s law” applies only to her is because the Senate Democrats refused to agree to unanimous consent to pass a bill unless it applied only to Terri. How convenient that they now blame Republicans who wanted a bill that would apply to anyone in Terri’s circumstances.

In Robles v. Coughlin, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit held that “the Eighth Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment does require that prisoners be served ‘nutritionally adequate food that is prepared and served under conditions which do not present an immediate danger to the health and well being of the inmates who consume it.’”

Too bad Terri isn’t confined in a prison instead of a hospice. That’s where her husband placed her after he won a large award in a malpractice case, where he promised to care for her.

In 1984, the New Hampshire Supreme Court upheld a trial court order that authorized a prison warden to feed and nourish a prison inmate over his objection, even though he was mentally competent and wanted to die by starvation. Here we have a judge ordering the removal of food and water to cause starvation. Even if we knew that's what Terri wants, Florida law makes aiding and abetting a suicide a felony, and there's no black-robed exemption.

Terri Schiavo isn’t dying from a disease, she isn’t on a ventilator, she doesn’t meet Florida’s definition of “persistent vegetative state,” and she committed no crime. She’s being killed by a judge on the flimsiest of evidence.

Some missing advocates need to step up to the Bar.


http://www.cwfa.org/articles/7786/LEGAL/life/index.htm

Denise
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131 posted 2005-03-27 01:13 PM


quote:
Government's chief role: To protect life

Posted: March 26, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Ken Connor
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
Thomas Jefferson never knew Terri Schiavo. But his words resonate with relevance as we reflect on the roles that the state of Florida and the government of the United States have played in trying to protect her life. "The first duty of government is the protection of life, not its destruction," declared Mr. Jefferson. "The chief purpose of government is to protect life. Abandon that and you have abandoned all."

It was Jefferson who, in penning the words of the Declaration of Independence, declared that the right to life was "unalienable" because it was "endowed" to us by our Creator. Government's role, according to this revered founding father, was to "secure" the unalienable rights conferred by the Creator on his creatures.

In the hue and cry that has surrounded the controversy concerning Terri Schiavo's court-ordered death, many seem to have forgotten the role our Founding Fathers envisioned for government. There is a reason Mr. Jefferson and the founders attached such primacy to the right to life. The right to life is the "first" right. It is that right without which no other right can exist. The right to speak as one pleases, worship as one chooses or associate with those whom one prefers all depend upon the protection of the right to life. Without protecting the right to life, all other rights are meaningless. Even the "right to privacy," which has been at the center of the Schiavo litigation, means nothing to a corpse. The enjoyment of all of the rights that derive from the Creator and which are secured by our Constitution and laws depend, first and foremost, upon protection of our right to life.

Critics of government intrusion into the acrimonious battle between Terri Schiavo's husband and her family seem to have overlooked the fact that it was Michael Schiavo who first petitioned the Circuit Court of Pinellas County to authorize the starvation and dehydration death of his disabled wife. In doing so, Mr. Schiavo is the one who injected government into the controversy. Thereafter, in proceedings that accorded her substantially fewer due-process protections than afforded death-row inmates, the court not only "authorized" Terri's death, it "ordered" her death by starvation and dehydration.

The Legislature and the governor of the state of Florida acted in the finest tradition of government when they sought to intervene to prevent Mrs. Schiavo from suffering a slow, agonizing death that would have been deemed "cruel and unusual punishment" for serial killers like Ted Bundy. The United States Congress and the president, likewise, acted in the finest Jeffersonian tradition when they sought to provide relief for Terri Schiavo.

The 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "no state … shall … deprive any person of life … without due process of law." The amendment confers on Congress the explicit power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of the amendment. Thus, acting pursuant to its constitutional authority, Congress rightly sought to provide Terri Schiavo the same rights of review that are available to death-row inmates. After all, Mrs. Schiavo will be just as dead as Ted Bundy if the Florida court order is not set aside.

Contrary to the assertions of some, Congress' intervention did not offend principles of "states' rights" or "federalism." Neither states' rights nor federalism gives a license to the states to run roughshod over the rights of American citizens. Sadly, the states have a long and sad history of giving the short shrift to the constitutional rights of vulnerable or unpopular American citizens. It is precisely because of that history that the 14th Amendment was passed in the aftermath of the Civil War.

What is most surprising about the role of government in the Schiavo case is that the courts seemed to have cast a blind eye and a deaf ear to the need to protect the rights of a frail and vulnerable citizen.

Historically, courts have been a bastion for the protection of individual liberties. Traditionally, it is the courts that have been the great "equalizer" for the weak and the vulnerable and the poor and unpopular. In this case, however, and increasingly around the country, courts are becoming aiders and abettors of the strong in exploiting the weak, and accomplices of the rich in exploiting the poor.

As our country shifts away from a sanctity of life ethic and moves increasingly toward an ethos that calculates the net worth of individuals using cost-benefit ratios and quality of life calculus, who will protect us from exploitation and abuse when we become inconvenient or when we cost more to maintain than we produce? If not the government, who will stand in the gap?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43503

ESP
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132 posted 2005-03-27 02:06 PM


On another forum I post in, a heavily British forum, to do with climbing rather than poetry, had a thread on this case. And an overwhelming majority spoke in favour of the judge's decision, along the lines of "a right to die in dignity" and "quality of life not worth living" etc. But they didn't seem to recognise that she wasn't completely vegitative or whatever the correct term is. It's very strange yet very human how people can have such very different views of a single case.
Is there any hope left for Terri now?

"Time has told me not to ask for more, one day our ocean will find its shore" ~Nick Drake

TexUS
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133 posted 2005-03-27 03:02 PM


ESP, I don't think killing an innocent person, or the support of that murder, is very human.
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134 posted 2005-03-27 03:15 PM




~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost,
the spirit rejoices over what it has left.
- Sufi epigram <))><

Email noles1@totcon.com

Denise
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135 posted 2005-03-27 07:14 PM


I think most of the people who think this is really no big deal are judging Terri's wishes on the belief that they don't think they would want to continue to live if they were in a similar situation. Whenever I hear that, I point out that they really wouldn't know that for sure unless they were actually in that situation, and whether or not they actually would want to die, that doesn't mean that Terri would. And since we don't know what Terri really wants since we are not inside of her head, we should opt on the side of life.

I also believe that most people are not aware of all the judicial misconduct, and conflicts of interest, not only with Michael Schiavo, but also with the judges, lawyers, the hospice center, the Sheriff at the time, who is now a member of the House of Representatives, who was and is a friend of Michael's, as well as others in the legislature, who engineered this tragedy a long time ago.


http://www.theempirejournal.com/53209_schiavo_case_tangled_web_o.htm

sweetcollege_girl
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136 posted 2005-03-27 10:04 PM


ESP...I have to agree with Tex..There is no humanity in this...and there is no dignity either...
ESP
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137 posted 2005-03-28 03:49 AM


I don't think there is humanity or dignity either. To me, Terri should be kept alive. This opinion is based on all I have read surrounding the case, which is based on links and comments on this thread and bits that have cropped up in newspapers that I have come across. I was just pointing out that people have a diverse range of opinions on the matter, and all on a single case, and how difficult it is sometimes to understand an opinion that doesn't match your own.

"Time has told me not to ask for more, one day our ocean will find its shore" ~Nick Drake

Brad
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138 posted 2005-03-28 09:08 AM


Dignity?

What right do you have to talk about dignity?

If the family wants to play with a zombie, no pain is involved. Don't pretend anything more or anything less.

jbouder
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139 posted 2005-03-28 10:14 AM


Brad

But for five years of extremely hard work and high expectations, I might have become a parent of a "zombie" - cut off from the social world with little hope for an adult life outside an institution.

I think it's good that we're struggling with hard questions that often have no hard answers - What is human dignity?  When does a life become not worth living?  How much do we invest in a life that has a fragile or highly uncertain future?

I have great admiration for the tenacity of Terri Schiavo's parents.  They have done an outstanding job of advocacy - even to the extent of getting the U.S. Congress to intervene.  Who knows - maybe Terri Schiavo was in an persistent vegetative state without hope for recovery.  But that's just the point - who knows?

When we make life and death decisions involving others, we need to be damn sure we're making the right decision.  Terri is either a zombie as you put it, or a mind (even a severely limited mind) living inside an unresponsive body.  Until we know for certain which is the case, caution should compel us to err on the side of life.

Jim

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140 posted 2005-03-28 10:39 AM


Brad....that was really a nasty thing to say. Just really uncalled for. Obviously you have read nothing regarding this case and made a comment based on nothing. Play with a zombie? You must not have children, or a heart for that matter. That was seriously disgusting...

Jim, what you said was wonderful... thanks for that.

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141 posted 2005-03-28 10:58 AM


Brad~
quote:
Dignity?

What right do you have to talk about dignity?

If the family wants to play with a zombie, no pain is involved. Don't pretend anything more or anything less.
I'm not absolutely certain that I've understood your position with your statement above~
Would you clarify your comment before I make what could be an incorrect decision on your position ?
Thanks~
~*Marge*~

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142 posted 2005-03-28 01:10 PM


Ah Friends~
http://www.zimp.org/stuff/

Go ahead ... lose your lunch ... goodness knows I lost mine~

This deprivation of a United States citizens basic civil rights to protection under the laws of our country is appalling !!!

My God ... what have we become ?

'Let the woman die with dignity' I've heard some say .... Oh ... yeah ... Nazi camp tactics of starvation and dehydration are dignity served on a silver platter~

And, isn't it interesting that they've had not only Michael Schiavo and his mouthpiece, but so many others say that death by dehydration is painless ... dang ... I can't help but wonder why they are wasting that MORPHINE drip on Terri !!!

May the Lord in all His Mercy be with Terri in her hours of great need~



sweetcollege_girl
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143 posted 2005-03-28 05:50 PM


i agree marge...praying for terri and her family
Brad
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144 posted 2005-03-28 06:42 PM


quote:
I think it's good that we're struggling with hard questions that often have no hard answers - What is human dignity?  When does a life become not worth living?  How much do we invest in a life that has a fragile or highly uncertain future?


I do too. I don't see that happening here.

quote:
I have great admiration for the tenacity of Terri Schiavo's parents.  They have done an outstanding job of advocacy - even to the extent of getting the U.S. Congress to intervene.  Who knows - maybe Terri Schiavo was in an persistent vegetative state without hope for recovery.  But that's just the point - who knows?


The cerebral cortex has been dead for fifteen years.

quote:
When we make life and death decisions involving others, we need to be damn sure we're making the right decision.


Indeed.


quote:
Terri is either a zombie as you put it, or a mind (even a severely limited mind) living inside an unresponsive body.


The body does respond, it responds to stimuli on the outside.

quote:
Until we know for certain which is the case, caution should compel us to err on the side of life.


Not arguing that. Simply pointing out that you can't talk about diginity with someone who can't talk.


If 'who knows' is the correct assumption (I don't think it is.), don't assume that means your assumption is correct.

Essentially, this debate is an argument over two religious viewpoints.


LoveBug
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145 posted 2005-03-28 07:27 PM


I don't think that's entirely fair. I've talked to many non-Christians who think that what is happening is terrible. I have also talked to Christians who think that what is happening is right...

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Denise
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146 posted 2005-03-28 08:30 PM


Marge,

Thanks for the link. It's good to have so much of it all in one easy place.


Brad,

The condition of the cerebral cortex is unknown and will remain unknown until the tests that could tell us the answer to that question are done. They have been forbidden by Michael Schiavo and Judge Greer. Why? Because they can.

They may not like the answers that the necessary diagnostic tests would reveal. Then they couldn't legally kill her if it were determined that she were not in a PVS, as upwards of 33 physicians have submitted sworn statements either she is not or that she most likely is not.

Michael Schiavo also obtained a court order from his good buddy Greer to immediately cremate her with no autopsy. So we won't know after she dies  what the condition of her cerebral cortex was either.

A neat and tidy arrangement.

This is one topic that isn't respective of religious or non-religious worldview. I think it speaks to a basic sense of justice, as this case cries out for, in light of all the troubling and suspicious goings-on. You don't have to look very hard to find them.

Brad
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147 posted 2005-03-28 09:16 PM


http://slate.com/id/2115123/

It has become a circus.

Denise
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148 posted 2005-03-28 09:33 PM


If I were in Florida, Brad, you better believe that I would be one of those people symbolically carrying bread and water across the cordoned off area of the lawn of the hospice. No one even gets near any of the doors, so it can only be symbolic. I applaud them for making a principled stand even if it can only be symbolic.

And I would hope that if I ever found myself in Terri's situation, there would be principled people taking a stand to fight for my life against such blatant injustice, even if it could only be symbolic.

Denise
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149 posted 2005-03-28 09:51 PM


quote:
  In Nazi Germany, the death camps started for the disabled and mentally retarded. It's clear that in America we've begun calculating the quality of life rather than observing the sanctity of life. While Terri's life has raised a national debate, it's hardly the first time we have allowed the innocent to die because of court rulings that had little to do with the law or the will of the people.

Think Roe v. Wade.

As I write these words, Terri Schiavo is still suffering – still clinging to life. But I take some comfort in believing, in this Resurrection season, she will soon be in Paradise. The rest of us, however, will be left behind here to think about what could have been and what should be.

What lessons will we learn?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43516



Denise
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150 posted 2005-03-28 10:25 PM


I just heard that an autopsy must be done in Florida for everyone being cremated, according to Flordia statute. And Felos gave an interview this afternoon saying that Michael 'asked' for an autopsy. Kind of unnecessary if it is mandated, I would think.

This should be interesting. Maybe this will be one statute that doesn't get violated in this long sad story. Or maybe not. And if a court order can take away an innocent person's life via starvation and dehydration, violating an autopsy requirement should be no big feat for Greer to accomplish. That might not be too hard at all if the medical examiner is also "one of the boys".

LoveBug
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151 posted 2005-03-28 10:47 PM


I find it interesting that Brad chose not to address Denise's point about the cerebral cortex... hmm.

Good stuff, Denise. Thanks for all of your insight and information. I heard about the autopsy today. I'd really like if it showed she could have been rehabilitated, so everyone could see what a monster her 'husband' and his cohorts are. Then again, as you said, I'm sure the doctor performing the procedure will be chosen, and will be 'sympathetic' to the 'cause'.

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Denise
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152 posted 2005-03-28 10:59 PM


A simple PET scan and MRI could have shown her true condition.

It's so sad that it has come to this.


jbouder
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153 posted 2005-03-29 08:43 AM


quote:
Not arguing that. Simply pointing out that you can't talk about diginity with someone who can't talk.


Your statement in and of itself is true, but does an individual's dignity end when a person can no longer communicate?  Does an infant child's life only have potential value?  That's absurd.

I think it is a mistake to reduce this argument to one between conflicting religious points of view (unless, of course, you consider any idealogical discussion to be necessarily theistic).  I think the real issue is whether a severely disabled person should be afforded the same Constitutional protections as a nondisabled person.  In most cases, I would expect an answer in the affirmative.  Then, I think, we can ask ourselves the more important question - when does a person become a non-person?

I'm willing to accept, given sufficient evidence, that Terri Schiavo was, in fact, an empty shell.  The courts seemed to focus on whether Ms. Shiavo's verbal "living will" was actionable rather than whether there was sufficient medical grounds to consider her brain dead.  This, I believe, was a mistake.

Jim

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154 posted 2005-03-29 09:50 AM


quote:
The courts seemed to focus on whether Ms. Shiavo's verbal "living will" was actionable rather than whether there was sufficient medical grounds to consider her brain dead.  This, I believe, was a mistake.

Jim, you always seem to make the good argument. That is exactly what so many have tried to say but it always has come out long and convoluted.

Pete

Denise
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155 posted 2005-03-29 07:31 PM


The truth of her medical condition was so a non-issue, that the husband and the judge both refused a PET scan and an MRI, as requested by the parents several times, even though they couldn't legally have ordered the feeding tube removed UNLESS she were PVS. A death decree was ordered anyway.

Now he 'wants' an autopsy to prove that she was PVS, as if an autopsy performed in Penellis County by a Penellis County medical examiner would prove anything at this point. I would insist on an outside M.E. if I were the parents to be assured of a truthful autopsy in light of all the corruption and collusion being uncovered, but that would only be DENIED as well, without comment, by the very predicatable Judge Greer.

If Schiavo wants to prove so badly that's she's PVS, order a PET scan or MRI, WHILE SHE IS STILL ALIVE.

But that's not what he really wants. He wants her dead.

He doesn't want to prove that she IS PVS, he wants to prove that she WAS PVS, and the autopsy will say whatever he and Judge Greer and George Felos want it to say. Or Greer will again violate a Florida Statute and there will be no autopsy.

Will the death certificate say:

Cause of Death: Starvation & Dehydration

or will it say:

Cardiac Arrest secondary to PVS?

[This message has been edited by Denise (03-29-2005 09:20 PM).]

Denise
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156 posted 2005-03-29 07:38 PM


Just a taste of the weirdness of George Felos, the death lawyer, who is now being paid by the ACLU and the Hemlock society to continue persuing Terri's death since he drained Terri's trust account dry:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43535

Denise
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157 posted 2005-03-29 09:11 PM


I just heard that there is an emergency meeting in the Florida legislature right now.

Oh God, please, please let them take action before it is too late.

Denise
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158 posted 2005-03-29 10:46 PM


Jeb Bush is courting
dereliction of duty

Posted: March 29, 2005
11:44 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
The Florida state constitution declares unequivocally that in the state of Florida "the supreme executive power shall be vested in a governor … ." The word supreme means highest in authority. There can be no executive authority in the state of Florida higher than the governor. No state law can create an executive authority higher than highest in the Florida constitution. Therefore no court order based upon such a law can constitutionally create such an authority.

If the governor tells the local police in Pinellas County to step aside, they must do so, or else be arrested and tried for an assault on the government of the state, which is to say insurrection.
(If Gov. Jeb Bush fears that for some reason they would question the authority of his representatives, then he should take the necessary law enforcement officials to Tampa in person, thus making the situation crystal clear.)

Since Florida's highest law grants him supreme executive power, the governor's action would be lawful. No one in the Florida judiciary can say otherwise, since the whole basis for the doctrine of judicial review (which they invoked when they refused to apply "Terri's law") is that any law at variance with the constitution is no law at all.

Gov. Bush has said that he recognizes the injustice being done to Terri Schiavo but is powerless to stop it. He is obviously not powerless, and his view of injustice is fully warranted.

The Florida state constitution declares: "All natural persons, female and male alike, are equal before the law and have inalienable rights, among which are the right to enjoy and defend life and liberty … ."

The word "inalienable" means that the rights in question cannot be given away or transferred to another by law. Now, by allowing Michael Schiavo to starve his wife to death, Judge George W. Greer transfers to Schiavo the exercise of her right to life, doing on her behalf what the Florida state constitution declares she herself could not do (since an inalienable right cannot be given away).

Schiavo's decision, and any element of the law it is based on that has the same effect, are therefore unconstitutional on the face of it

The governor of Florida cannot be obliged to enforce unconstitutional edicts, nor can he be faulted for acting to stop an evident violation of the constitution. In his oath as governor he swore to "support, protect and defend the Constitution and government of the United States and of the state of Florida."

As supreme executive, he is obliged to act in their defense, and no court order can relieve him of this responsibility.

Any order by Judge Greer that seeks to prevent him from doing his sworn duty, as he sees fit, is invalid, and any attempt by the judge to incite armed forces to enforce his order would be an act of judicial insurrection against the constitution and government of Florida.

The judge may have whatever opinion he pleases, but when he attempts to use force to back it up, he breaks the law, going against the constitution of the state, which is to say against the supreme law in Florida.

In Federalist 81, when Alexander Hamilton lists the safeguards against "judiciary encroachments on the legislative authority," he cites in particular "its total incapacity to support its usurpations by force."

Accepting the notion that judicial orders at any level may constitute an executive power superior to the chief executive would give the judiciary just such a forceful capacity.

When every judicial decision carries the implied threat of armed insurrection, a key safeguard of liberty and self-government is removed. If any state governor, or the president of the United States acts so as to encourage the judiciary to assume such executive power, or the people to believe that it may constitutionally do so, he undermines the integrity of all our constitutions, and of American self-government as a whole.

This constitutes a grave dereliction of duty and would in saner times clearly be grounds for his impeachment by a legislature intent on defending the Florida constitution against "judiciary encroachments."

By God's grace, however, Terri Schiavo still lives, and Gov. Bush may yet act to redeem himself and his constitutional authority. Courageous action would be an act of statesmanship, defending the integrity of our constitutional system and the ultimate sovereignty of the people.

We have long been awaiting the statesman who could turn a crisis into such healing. Like Ronald Reagan before him, Jeb Bush could prove himself such a man. For Terri's sake and for the sake of constitutional self-government in America, he should act now. For failure to do so, he has no excuse.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43536


Local Rebel
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159 posted 2005-03-29 11:24 PM


One thing that I've always admired about you Denise is that you approach everything you do with passion.  I have my own concerns about state authority making medical decisions for individuals and there is no gain for anyone for me to discuss the particular merits of Terri's case, but just on a personal note I can understand fully what the Schindlers are doing having lost a child, but, I'm at a loss to understand the motives of Michael.  I've never met him, or Terri.  I'm not there.  I don't know.  

But for my Christian friends who have so much emotion invested in this some words from 2 Samuel come to mind;

quote:

16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.
18 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate."
19 David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked.
"Yes," they replied, "he is dead."
20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.
21 His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"
22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

2 Samuel 12:16-23 (New International Version)



Just something that might bring comfort when the time comes.



LoveBug
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160 posted 2005-03-30 08:30 AM


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/30/pope.monday/index.html

The pope is on a feeding tube now too. Good thing he doesn't live in the US, or he'd get to starve too.

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Denise
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161 posted 2005-03-30 08:41 AM


Thanks for your kind and comforting words, L.R.

I find strength and comfort in the arms of the Lord in everything and through everything. I don't know how people who don't believe in God or in His ultimate control over everything keep their sanity.

Yes, I believe that no matter how this situation resolves itself, it will be according to His will.

I also believe that some of those who are fighting to keep her alive are doing so out of a belief that every life is a sacred gift of God and that He is the only one with the authority to determine the time to depart this earth, not man, not a human court.

I believe others are fighting for the principle of protecting the right to life guaranteed to be secured in the Constitution, and to avoid the precedent that this will set if the current ORDER is allowed to stand.

I also don't believe that the government should involve itself in private affairs, normally. But this case is far from normal. Many allegations of corruption, collusion, abuse and neglect have been swirling about her sad situation for some time now, even though it has only recently become a national story of interest.

Due to these mitigating circumstances that make this case stand out from normal end-of-life issues is the reason that Congress was asked to step in, by the authority of the 14th Amendment, to ensure that Terri's Constitutional rights had not been violated by the State, the same protections offered to criminals receiving a sentence of death.

Perhaps God allowed this situation to occur to bring vivdly into focus the abuses of power that have been taking place, and how dangerous that can be to our rights if it isn't challenged. Perhaps He has hardened the hearts of the judges for that very purpose. Perhaps He is also working in the hearts of those who are fighting for her rights and life, challenging people to make a stand for justice, mercy and truth, things that God esteems highly.

The ultimate outcome for Terri is in His hands, as it has always been. The issues raised by her situation will be around for quite some time, and may well bring about needed changes in the current laws, that I'm sure most people didn't realize were so deficient, like doctors and health care facilities having the ultimate say in end-of-life issues, no matter the wishes of the patient and family, in Texas, and such as a 'spouse' being able to retain guardianship even after starting a new life with another, and despite 12 years of serious allegations of neglect and abuse, in Florida.

Good comes out of every tragedy, and as the verse you quoted says, Who knows what God will do, what His will is in a situation prior to its resolution. So we fast and pray.

A couple things I do know is that God says, "I set before you life and death; Choose life."  And "Do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God."

So I'll attempt to do that in the interim prior to the revealing of His will in Terri's case and the outcome will be as He wishes. And the lessons presented by this situation will also have been provided to us, according to His will.

Thanks again for your kind words.

Brad
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162 posted 2005-03-30 08:53 AM


Lovebug,

Thought I did, oh well.

Jim,

By two religious viewpoints, I meant death with dignity versus life at all costs.

Does communication thereby dictate one's right to live?

No.

Do those who do communicate or nature determine that?

Yes.

I have not seen the video, I have seen the pictures. I am not convinced of the  tabloid conspiracies I hear about, nor am I convinced that any person should ever be compared to Jesus (WND did that). I do not know the whole situation regarding the husband but it strikes as just a bit too neat to demonize the guy you disagree with.

How did she become what she has been for the last fifteen years?

Who has recovered from that?

(multiple documentation, please!)

It has become a circus and you know it. I'm not being disingenous at all when I say that you're situation is entirely, entirely different.

Love,

Brad

Denise
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163 posted 2005-03-30 09:12 AM


Bush's political obituary

Posted: March 30, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

I never had any desire to run for political office, but, if I did, it would be to make a difference.

If I didn't think I could make a difference, what would be the point?

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush told us last week he just didn't have the power and authority to save one innocent woman forced by court order and armed guard to starve to death in his state.

I don't believe that's true. Not for a minute do I believe it. Jeb Bush blinked. And that weakness that he showed for the whole world should represent the end of his political career.

It's unfortunate, because I believe Jeb Bush knew, deep in his convictions, it was wrong to let Terri Schiavo be murdered by a judge's order

He even dispatched a team of state law enforcement officers to seize her hours after Judge George Greer refused to listen to his pleadings in the courtroom.

But he backed down. When local cops informed the state officers that they would enforce the judge's order, the agents of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement stopped.

That's not leadership. That's capitulation.

Gov. Jeb Bush shouldn't have merely dispatched officers to the scene to negotiate with the local cops, he should have led them. He should have personally persuaded those local officers that he was the highest law enforcement official in the state and he was ordering them to stand down.

He should have been a field general, not an armchair general.

He should have walked up to that hospice with overwhelming force behind him.

He should have done so with the whole world watching.

Jeb Bush has been talked about as a potential presidential candidate. But who is going to seriously consider a commander in chief who backs down at the first sign of resistance?

Bush may have been trying to take the safe route in this crisis, but it represents, in my estimation, the end of his political ambitions.

Jeb Bush was tested, and he was found lacking.

He allowed a terribly immoral action to take place in his state and did nothing but huff and puff about it.

And it wasn't the first time.

Say what you will about former U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno. I think she was a fascist. I think she was a criminal. I think she was possibly stark, raving mad. But she backed up her misguided convictions by sending armed federal agents swooping in to pick up little Elian Gonzalez and take him back to Cuba.

It was wrong, but she wasn't afraid.

Back then, Gov. Jeb Bush sat by and watched his authority breached by Washington.

This time, he sat by and watched his authority breached by a puny, little county bureaucrat, a local politician, Judge George Greer.

Does the Florida governor have any authority?

If not, we shouldn't take the position seriously as a stepping stone to higher office. If it does, why didn't he use it when it counted?

I feel sorry for Jeb Bush today.

I think he knew right from wrong in this case but didn't have the courage of his convictions. I think he listened to all the wrong advisers. I think he will carry regrets about Terri Schiavo to his grave.

He could have been a hero. He could have been a leader.

Instead, he appears weak. Instead, he appears to vacillate.

My wife told me: "If Jeb Bush had done the right thing for Terri, I would have given up six months of my life to campaign for him. I would have done anything to help him."

I'm sure many people feel like that. Let me ask you today: Is anyone excited about the possibility of a third Bush administration?

  http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43542


Speaking of the lessons we learn...

I think both the President and Governor have been found lacking in this sad saga.

Perhaps both should be impeached for dereliction of duty.

Sunshine
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164 posted 2005-03-30 09:45 AM


quote:
Perhaps God allowed this situation to occur to bring vivdly into focus the abuses of power that have been taking place, and how dangerous that can be to our rights if it isn't challenged. Perhaps He has hardened the hearts of the judges for that very purpose. Perhaps He is also working in the hearts of those who are fighting for her rights and life, challenging people to make a stand for justice, mercy and truth, things that God esteems highly.

Stands to religious reason that He very well could be doing all of this, for reasons we may never know.

As I observe through the media not only Terri's plight, but the Pope's health as well, it has crossed my mind that they will meet, and he will greet Terri, explaining how she was used for His purpose.

Brings to mind the story of Bernadette...

You've made a lot of valid points, Denise, and you wear your passion well. I would only hope that you and I see the truths come out, before, AND after.

Because we both realize that there are far deeper events going on than what even the media has uncovered. But nothing remains hidden for long.

jbouder
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165 posted 2005-03-30 01:50 PM


Brad:

quote:
It has become a circus and you know it. I'm not being disingenuous at all when I say that you're situation is entirely, entirely different.


Even Cicero appealed to pathos and ethos from time to time (and I’m not comparing my own skills to those of Cicero, by the way).  

But my position isn’t entirely based on personal experience, nor do I believe it is irrelevant to the discussion.  Because of the database clutter on the Terri Schiavo issue, I couldn’t locate the research I was after on the efficacy of treatments for her type of brain injury.  I did, however, find some information that seems to confirm that people with traumatic brain injury can benefit from similar therapeutic interventions to those that have afforded people with autism significant and meaningful outcomes for more than 40 years:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/archive/20040830/pubs/cbm/tbi.html#15

I know several families with children who have recovered significantly from severe traumatic brain injuries.  Whether or not the types of brain injury brought on by head trauma are comparable to brain injury resulting from lack of oxygen, I’m not sure.  But if there is some cognition, some ability beyond reflex to respond to external stimuli, then many lost abilities can be reacquired and many of those that are perhaps forever lost can be functionally replaced with assistive technology.  What we don’t know is whether Terri does have some remaining cognitive ability – if she does, she can learn.  Of that, I’m certain.  We also don't know whether such interventions have been attempted with Terri and failed, and if they've failed, whether it was a result of poor delivery of such therapies (I've seen the latter in the case of my son and in many other children who were deemed by some professionals as "unresponsive" to behavioral interventions).

Regardless of the husband’s motives, I’m concerned that the court put undue weight in Terri’s alleged verbal living will, considering the words were apparently uttered at the funeral of a loved one.  Saying you do not wish to be resuscitated is one thing – committing such wishes to paper is an entirely different matter.

I’m not saying that the majority of those contributing to this thread are right.  I am saying that we need more information before we can make an informed decision on the issues at play, and that because of the finality of death, some forbearance is due Terri until what we don’t know is brought to light.

A prediction – the Feds will propose legislation following Terri’s death preventing the repetition of this sad story.  Our form of government is always reactionary.  I see no reason why they won’t behave in the same way they have time after time.

Jim

Denise
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166 posted 2005-03-30 03:14 PM


Nothing done in the dark remains hidden forever, Karilea, that's true.

Jim, as a point of information, Terri has had no therapy since 1992.

As soon as the husband received the malpractice jury award in early 1993 (for which the doctor involved in that case has since been found innocent of those malpractice charges that were lodged) of upwards of 1 million dollars, Michael Schiavo immediately did a 180 and put Terri on a DNR status and refused to resume the therapy that she had been receiving prior to that (from which she was benefiting from according to the family and the therapuetic records), and forbade the nursing home staff from administering anti-biotics for infections (to which the nursing home staff overrode his wishes stating that they were obligated to treat her for infections). This is what caused the rift between him and Terri's family. They begged him to provide for her the care and therapy for which he received the jury award to make Terri as well as she could possibly be. When he refused, they sought in court to gain the guardianship so that they could provide it for her.

jbouder
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167 posted 2005-03-30 03:44 PM


Denise:

I'd like to hear the other side's take on this.  Like it or not, there are two sides - both deserve an opportunity to be heard.

Jim

Denise
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168 posted 2005-03-30 03:57 PM


You're right, Brad, there are conflicting worldviews at play is this situation. I wouldn't call it 'death with dignity' vs. 'life at all costs', though. I'd call it 'death to the burdensome, inconvenient and defective' vs. 'all life, no matter the form it takes, has intrinsic value' (and as such should not be forfeited lightly), and in end-of-life issues, a person's life should not be taken without something in writing definitively attesting to their wishes.

And decades old word of mouth 'wishes' (not remembered or revealed until 4 years after a multi-million dollar jury award that came 3 years after the incident causing the disability), nothing more than hearsay testimony, by an estranged spouse, which is hotly contested by natural family members with nothing to gain monetarily or materially should be insufficient to result in a court order resulting in death.

quote:
"Life and Death in America" – a stunning special investigative report that will start with the Terri Schiavo story, but will go on to expose as never before America's rapidly expanding euthanasia/"right-to-die" movement – will be the focus of an upcoming issue of WND's acclaimed monthly Whistleblower magazine.

Just as WND first brought the Schiavo saga to national attention in 2002, long before it hit the radar of the rest of the national media, this powerful Whistleblower edition will expose the entire, ever-enlarging death movement of which most Americans are not yet aware.

The issue will expose the movement's bizarre occult and New Age underpinnings, physician-assisted suicide, the increasingly common euthanizing of newborn babies in Scandinavia, and much more – including abortion, embryonic stem-cell research, human cloning and other aspects of the life issue. It's literally a "life-and-death" issue, and promises to go far beyond previous journalistic explorations.

Despite saturation press coverage of the Terri Schiavo case, Felos's New Age spirituality has not emerged as an issue. However, as Richard Land, head of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission said to the St. Petersburg Times, the Terri Schiavo case represents a "clash of two very disparate civilizations – the Judeo-Christian civilization, which is based upon the sanctity of human life, and the neopagan, relativist, quality-of-life civilization."

Adds James A. Smith Sr., executive editor of the Florida Baptist Witness: "Both worldviews are in play in the Schiavo debate and it's long past time for the public to understand this."


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43550

And along with Erica, I too missed your comment concerning my statement that the condition of her cerebral cortex is unknown without the necessary tests being perfomed that would reveal its condition.

Denise
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169 posted 2005-03-30 03:59 PM


Understandable, Jim. The facts are a matter of record, which is a good thing since the other side isn't speaking about it.

And now I just heard that the 11th Circuit has again refused a de novo hearing.

How unfortunate.

Denise
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170 posted 2005-03-30 08:28 PM


quote:
The Emperor's New Robes
Posted: March 30, 2005
6:45 p.m. Eastern

© 2005 Ann Coulter


Opinions about the Schiavo case seem to break down less on morals than on basic knowledge of the facts of the case.

There are a lot of telling facts, but two big ones are:

 The only family member lobbying for Terri's death is her husband, who is affianced to a woman he's been living with for several years and with whom he already has two children. (Today's brain twister: Would you rather be O.J.'s girlfriend or Michael Schiavo's fiancee?)

 Terri's husband has refused to allow her to be given either an MRI or a PET scan, which are also known as: "The tests that could determine whether Terri is even in a permanent vegetative state." (I believe his exact words were, "PET scan? MRI? What do I look like, a guy who just won a $1 million malpractice settlement?")

On the basis of these facts, Pinellas County Judge George Greer found that it was Terri's wish to be starved to death. She requires no life support; all she needs is food and water. If being (a) on a liquid diet, and (b) unresponsive to one's estranged husband are now considered grounds for a woman's execution, wait until this news hits Beverly Hills!

Despite the media's idiotic claims that scores of courts have made painstaking findings of fact over 15 years that Terri is in a permanent vegetative state and would have wanted to die, only one judge made such a finding. Other courts have not made any factual findings whatsoever. They simply refused to overturn Greer's findings of fact as an abuse of discretion.

Greer made his finding based on the testimony of Terri's husband that Terri said she wouldn't want to live like this – a rather important fact the husband only remembered many years after Terri was first injured, but one year after he won a million-dollar malpractice award and began living with another woman. (Maybe when Terri said, "I wouldn't want to live like that" she was referring to being married to Michael Schiavo.)

Supporting the idea that positions on the Schiavo case are correlated with IQ, on the pro-killing side is Rep. Chris Shays, R-Conn., who denounced the legislation granting federal courts jurisdiction over Terri's case, saying the Republican Party "has become a party of theocracy." Yes, you remembered correctly: The House passed the bill overwhelmingly in a 203-58 vote, and the Senate passed it in a voice vote also with overwhelming support. (Surely, if anyone would defend the practice of being on a liquid diet, you'd think Ted Kennedy would.)

Also on the pro-killing side are conservatives still pissed off about the Civil Rights Act of 1964 who are desperately hoping to be elected "most consistent constitutionalist" by their local Federalist Society chapters.

You can't grow peanuts on your own land or install a toilet capable of disposing two tissues in one flush because of federal government intervention. But Congress demands a review of the process that goes into a governmental determination to kill an innocent American woman – and that goes too far!

It's not a radical extension of current constitutional doctrines – even the legitimate ones! – for the federal government to assert a constitutional right to life that cannot be denied without due process of law under the Fifth and 14th Amendments. Congress didn't ask for much, just the same due process John Wayne Gacy got.

But people even stupider than lawyers have picked up on the vague rumblings from "most consistent constitutionalist" aspirants and begun to claim that Congress' action is an affront to "limited government."

Of course, the most limited of all possible governments is a king. We don't have that sort of "limited government." What we have is divided government: three branches of government at the federal level and 50 states with their own versions of checks and balances.

Or at least that was the government designed for us by men smarter than we are. We haven't had that sort of government for decades.

Alexander Hamilton's famous last words in "The Federalist" described the judiciary as the "least dangerous branch," because it had neither force nor will. Now the judiciary is the most dangerous branch. It doesn't need force because it has smoke and mirrors and a lot of people defending the moronic scribblings of any judge as the perfect efflorescence of "the rule of law."

This week, an indisputably innocent woman will be killed by the government for one reason: Judge Greer of Pinellas County, Fla., ordered it.

Polls claim that a majority of Americans objected to action by the U.S. Congress in the Schiavo case as "government intrusion" into a "private family matter" – as if Judge Greer is not also the government. So twisted is our view of the judiciary that a judicial decree is treated like a naturally occurring phenomenon, like a rainbow or an act of God.

Our infallible, divine ruler is a county judge in Florida named George Greer, who has more authority in America than the U.S. Congress, the president and the governor. No wonder the Southern Baptist Church threw Greer out: Only one god per church!

It's a good system if you like monarchy and legally sanctioned murder. But spare me the paeans to "strict constructionism" and "limited government."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43569



Denise
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171 posted 2005-03-30 08:42 PM


And the 'spin' is already in from CBS for her obituary: Notice that they already know ahead of time that Michael was at her bedside when she died surrounded by stuffed animals and medical equipment on her bed (what medical equipment would that have been, I wonder?) Such talented people, seeing into the future like that! In all reality, Felos spent thousands of dollars from Terri's trust account to 'handle' the press. I guess that even extends to her obituary.

Note: She isn't dead yet.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43558


LoveBug
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172 posted 2005-03-30 08:54 PM


Brad, you said NOTHING in response to Denise's comments on the cerebral cortex, you only followed up with your 'circus' comment.

So YEAH, I think you didn't comment on it. OH WELL

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

SEA
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173 posted 2005-03-30 08:59 PM


that makes me sick...
like he would be at her bedside....
more like reaching for the champagne...

Denise
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174 posted 2005-03-30 09:49 PM


*groan*

It just gets more bizarre by the moment. No wonder Michael Schiavo was not worried about the autopsy. Florida law says that the actual autoposy documents and/or photos are only made public at the discretion of the legal next of kin...which in this case is him. So he doesn't even need a corrupt Pinellas County medical examiner in his pocket. He can just say whatever he pleases to say the report says.

But it doesn't really matter anyway in all reality. I read an article by a medical examiner today and he stated that it is not even possible to determine by autopsy that someone did or did not have PVS, since that is a clinical diagnosis, open to interpretation, and not something that a medical examiner could determine. And decades old healed bone fractures won't tell how they were broken, just that they were.

SEA, one thing I will bet on is that when it becomes quite obvious that she only has a few hours or moments to live, he will have her family escorted out so that they can't be with her, whether he is or not. I think that is how cruel he is. I could be wrong, but I just think he will do that. And if he does, her brother will tell us that...and I won't be surprised in the least.

So very very sad.

Denise
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175 posted 2005-03-30 10:59 PM


I guess Dr. Baden may have misstated Florida law regarding release of the autopsy results.

I just read that it is required to be made public.

Who knows?

Maybe they will allow Judge Greer to make that determination.

Alicat
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176 posted 2005-03-31 12:19 PM


Denise, your remark about Jeb Bush was wrong.  Yes, he did send state troopers prior to Judge Greer's decision regarding the State caring for Terri.  They were to be onhand if Judge Greer ruled in Bush's favor, to provide security for removing Terri from that hospice should Michael or his legal team try to fight the move.  Once the decision came down against Bush, the troopers were removed from that location.  They were not heading there to take Terri by force.  They were heading there on the off chance that Judge Greer might change his mind.

And Governor Bush could not break the law.  As Chief Executive for the State of Florida, he must hold himself to a higher standard regarding the law, just as Mods and Admins here must hold themselves to a stricter enforcement of the house rules.

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177 posted 2005-03-31 09:37 AM


Well, the final atrocity has come to pass. The family has been escorted from Terry's room and told they are now banned from seeing their daughter in her final hours.

There must be some law, somewhere, that prohibits parents from seeing their children as they are about to die at the hands of the State, but I can't find one. Even executions are open.....which is exactly what this is.

The husband wins another one....

Alicat
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178 posted 2005-03-31 10:13 AM


And he won yet another.  Terri died.  After 15 years of denied healthcare, physical therapy and basic medical needs, he's finally free of her, having spent almost all of her settlement money earmarked for therapy on legal bills, while he still has his allotment awarded in addition to her settlement.  Greer, Felos and Michael have a lot to answer for, in this life or the next.
LeeJ
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179 posted 2005-03-31 11:10 AM


AMEN Alicat, AMEN!!!  Hard times presently, very sad times.....
Sunshine
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180 posted 2005-03-31 11:34 AM


quote:
Greer, Felos and Michael have a lot to answer for, in this life or the next.

I am thankful I am not in their shoes.

sweetcollege_girl
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181 posted 2005-03-31 12:06 PM


I agree totally with you Alicat..I am praying for Terri's family..they weren't able to be in there when their daughter died..that is very cruel...my heart aches for them...

and i am praying for Michael Shiavo too..he certainly needs it...

~~SCG~~

LoveBug
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182 posted 2005-03-31 12:18 PM


Now that he's rid of Terri, maybe in a few years he'll find a way to knock off the woman he's been living with...

RIP Terri.. we know you were murdered.

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

LeeJ
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183 posted 2005-03-31 12:36 PM


I tell you true, cannot even begin to imagine what her parents went thru and have yet to go thru????
There is nothing to compare to having children...and for this man, to take this, their child from them like this....well, simply said....if she'd have been my child, God help me, and God help Michael!!!!!!!

I don't like that man very much, forgive me.

Cloud 9
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184 posted 2005-03-31 01:18 PM


May she rest peacefully now. My prayers go out to her and her family.
Mistletoe Angel
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185 posted 2005-03-31 02:58 PM




Love,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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186 posted 2005-03-31 03:51 PM


I find it very interesting that it was reported by AP this morning that the Pope's living will dictates his wishes never to be taken off life support, even to the point of going into a coma or vegetative state. The Vatican also stated that no new Pope will be selected for as long as the current one breathes. Therefore, the Pope is willing to take the chance of having the Catholic church go basically leaderless rather than go off life support, regardless of his condition. Seems a little ironic to me in some way.

Doesn't sound like the Pope is very eager to meet the Big Guy ....

Mistletoe Angel
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187 posted 2005-03-31 04:17 PM


I'd rather not engage in a debate right now about the Pope and his nasal feeding tube, etc., but I did hear about that story yesterday.

I really don't know what to think of it. I don't think it's that big of a deal, really. Most Popes in our history didn't step down or resign before passing away. Most resumed their position and a new Pope was assigned following each Pope's passing.

What is he, 83 years old now I believe? So indeed he can't collect or orientate his thoughts as well as he continues to age, and he is struggling to even speak from his hospital window (he was only there four minutes last time, making the gesture of the Cross to visitors). I myself understand that argument of age and authority, but all the same, it's nothing new, it's less common historically for Popes to end their terms personally.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Juju
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188 posted 2005-03-31 06:57 PM


I think that is not the case.  I think the pope is stating his opinion siliently about terri.  I think this is his way of telling  the family and all the world that it was wrong and he is with them.

Juju  

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The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Denise
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189 posted 2005-03-31 08:20 PM


I am often wrong about things, Ali, more times than I would like to admit.

His sending the state troopers in on the off chance that Greer would give his permission sounds more accurate, given Jeb's seeming understanding that he couldn't act contrary to a court's order.

I still don't agree with his understanding of the limitations on his authority in light of an innocent life being on the line, but I guess I can't judge his conscience based on my conscience in a matter like this.

I was dismayed for them, but far from shocked, since it was exactly what I expected he would do in a final act of cruelty, when I heard Bobby Schindler say this morning that the family was barred from Terri's room in what turned out to be her final moments. Other than fighting for all these years to end her life, I think this is the hallmark of this man's cruelty.

I was touched, and personally admonished, seeing the family tonight praying "Father forgive them, they know not what they do."

I had a strange sense of release on hearing of her passing, knowing that she was no longer suffering the cruel 'death process' forced upon her, and no longer under the control of Schiavo. She is now released from him and at peace.

Some good has already begun to be evidenced due to Terri's plight. A couple of States are already looking at the laws on their books concerning guardianship issues and tightening the guidelines on the qualifications for obtaining and maintaining a guardianship to prevent anyone else from ever slipping through the legal cracks as Terri did.

I was also heartened through all this by the outpouring of love and concern for Terri and her family, and the level of outrage that was expressed at something so obviously unjust and such an assault on the sensibilities of many decent people. Even though our courts and leaders failed Terri and her family, and us, we're still a country of some pretty amazing people who actually give a damn about the suffering of others.

Rest in peace, Terri. Because of your suffering, much good will come to others. It wasn't in vain.

Would someone with the capability put up a candle in Terri's memory?

Thanks,

I love you guys!  

Brad
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190 posted 2005-03-31 09:02 PM


http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

quote:
Ultimately, Terri's case is understandable, though painfully so. If you take away the "evil" allegations that have been leveled against everyone, it's easy to see what you're left with.

You're left with a woman who suffered a heart attack 15 years ago, who essentially died but was resuscitated, though not entirely. Her brain had suffered enormous damage from the heart attack. As time passed, her brain further deteriorated -- to the point where much if not most of her cerebral cortex (the portion of the brain that controls conscious thought, among other things) was literally gone, replaced by spinal fluid. Doctors hired by Terri's husband say the deterioration of Terri's brain left her without thoughts or feelings, that the damage is irreversible, and that Terri's life-like appearance is merely the result of brain stem activity -- basically involuntary reflexes we all have. An independent doctor hired by the court reached the same conclusions. Doctors hired by Terri's parents did not dispute the physical damage done to Terri, but they claim there are new therapies that could improve her condition. In two separate trials, the trial court found such claims of potential improvement to be without merit. Terri's body continues to function without her cerebral cortex. She is sustained by a feeding tube surgically inserted into her stomach. She cannot eat through her mouth without a strong likelihood of choking to death.

You're left with a husband who lived with his in-laws following Terri's heart attack, who apparently provided care and therapy for years but who later came to believe Terri would never recover. He believes she would not have wanted to be kept alive in this brain-degenerated condition by a surgically implanted tube. He is apparently willing to continue his fight to achieve what he believes Terri would want despite ridicule, hatred, expense, and threats.

You're left with parents who were once allied with Terri's husband in an effort to care for Terri and restore her but, unlike Terri's husband, they never lost hope. They believe Terri reacts to them and has conscious thoughts. They believe Terri would not want, and does not want, her feeding tube removed, and that some cognitive function could be restored through new therapies. Terri's parents are willing to continue their fight to achieve what they believe Terri would want despite ridicule, hatred, expense, and threats.

You're left with judges who have been placed in the utterly thankless position of applying Florida law to this impassioned situation.


I think a candle would be a good thing.

Marge Tindal
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191 posted 2005-03-31 09:37 PM


Denise~
You know I love you for your compassionate heart ... and the fact that you were and will continue to be a ~Warrior~ for others, so that they never have to suffer what Terri had to go through ...~

My heart grieves for the loss of a beautiful woman ... Terri Schiavo ... and as you already know ... I left a beautiful memento in your name and mine at her Hospice Care Facility yesterday~

Going there was the hardest and yet the easiest thing I have been called upon to do~
The news this morning rocked me to the core ...~

For a short time I will try to maintain a quiet vigil, in Terri's honor ... she deserves that from me ...~

I will return when I can~

Thank you for being my friend ... and Terri's friend~
~*Marge*~

~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost,
the spirit rejoices over what it has left.
- Sufi epigram <))><

Email noles1@totcon.com

Denise
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192 posted 2005-03-31 09:42 PM


quote:
  
Statement of the Schindler Family

Pinellas Park, FL – As you are aware, Terri is now with God and she has been released from all earthly burdens. After these recent years of neglect at the hands of those who were supposed to protect and care for her, she is finally at peace with God for eternity. We are speaking on behalf of our entire family this evening as we share some thoughts and messages to the world regarding our sister and the courageous battle that was waged to save her life from starvation and dehydration.

We have a message for the volunteers that have helped our family:

Thank you for all that you’ve done for our family. Thank you to the hundreds of doctors who volunteered to help Terri. Thank you to the fifty doctors who provided statements under oath to help Terri. Thank you to the lawyers who stood for Terri’s life in the courtrooms of our nation. From running our family’s website, to driving us around, to making meals, to serving in so many ways—thank you to all of the volunteers who have been so kind to our family through all of this.

We have a message for the supporters and people praying worldwide:

Please continue to pray that God gives grace to our family as we go through this very difficult time. We know that many of you never had the privilege to personally know our wonderful sister, Terri, but we assure you that you can be proud of this remarkable woman who has captured the attention of the world. Following the example of the Lord Jesus, our family abhors any violence or any threats of violence. Threatening words dishonor our faith, our family, and our sister, Terri. We would ask that all those who support our family be completely kind in their words and deeds toward others.

We have a message to the media:

We appreciate your taking Terri’s case to the nation. Please afford our family privacy to grieve at this time.The patience and graciousness of the on-site media here at hospice has been deeply appreciated by our family.

We have a message to the many government officials who tried to help Terri:

Thank you for all that you’ve done. Our family will be forever grateful to all of the outstanding public servants who have tried to save Terri.

We have a message to all of the religious leaders who tried to help Terri:

Thank you to all people of faith who demonstrated love for Terri and strength of conviction to defend the sacredness of all human life as a precious gift from God.
Our family is highly honored that the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, would speak out so boldly on behalf of our sister, Terri.

We have a message of forgiveness:

Throughout this ordeal, we are reminded of the words of Jesus on the cross: “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” Our family seeks forgiveness for anything that we have done in standing for Terri’s life that has not demonstrated the love and compassion required of us by our faith.

We have a message to parents worldwide:

Our family would encourage parents to spend time with their children and to cherish each and every moment of each and every day with them as a precious gift from God.

We have a message to Terri from her family:

As a member of our family unable to speak for yourself, you spoke loudly. As a member of our family unable to stand under your own power, you stood with a grace and a dignity that made your family proud. Terri, we love you dearly, but we know that God loves you more than we do. We must accept your untimely death as God’s will.

Terri, your life and legacy will continue to live on, as the nation is now awakened to the plight of thousands of voiceless people with disabilities that were previously unnoticed. Your family intends to stand up for the other “Terri’s” around this nation and we will do all that we can to change the law so others won’t face the same fate that has befallen you.

We have a final thought to share:

Our family had hoped this day would never come, but as it has now arrived, we ask ourselves a question in these incredibly sad circumstances: What would the Lord Jesus ask us to do in a moment like this? In John’s Gospel, Jesus responded to the questions of the rabbis, who asked why a man had been born blind. He said: “it is so that the works of God might be made manifest through him.”

God’s plan for Terri is unfolding before our eyes. Our prayer at this time is that our Nation will remember the plight of persons with disabilities and commit within our hearts to defend their lives and their dignity for many generations to come.

http://www.wnd.com/redir/r.asp?http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/03/statement_of_th_1.php#more


Denise
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193 posted 2005-03-31 10:29 PM


Thank you, Marge. I wish I could have been there too. My heart was with you.


Denise
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194 posted 2005-03-31 10:55 PM


Brad, that story is filled with many inaccuracies, one of the problems that the family has had to fight against while they fought to save their daughter. Those fighting to end her life were also waging a battle in the press 'blaming' Terri for her being in her condition in the first place. Felos, et al, spent thousands of dollars from her trust account to 'handle' the media.

There is no evidence that Terri ever had any eating disorder. Her family never saw any evidence, her closest friends never saw any evidence, her physicians never saw any evidence, for which they were sued in a malpractice suit that charged that since she had irregular menstrual cycles (which can have a multitude of causes, usually some type of hormonal imbalance or possibly even STRESS...maybe it was stressful living with Michael? ), her doctors should have considered that she may have had an eating disorder (which may or may not disrupt the cycle, but usually does in severe cases) even though nothing else about her physical condition indicated that possibility. The doctors later had the malpractice decision reversed and their names exonerated and their medical licenses restored.

The results of the bloodwork that was done in the E.R. showed no enzymes consistent with the diagonosis of a heart attack.

It also noted a particulary rigid neck, consistent with strangulation.

The condition of her cerebral cortex is unknown. The requisite tests to determine that were forbidden to be done. The degree of brain atrophy that was shown on the cat scan is consistent with that of some older people in their 70's or 80's WITHOUT any brain damage.

Greta had a defense attorney answering medical questions last night, unreal. And some of the doctors that I have heard on television would still have said that she was a 'vegetable' with only reflexive responses if she would have gotten out of her bed, walked out to the cameras, grabbed the microphone and said: "I want to live."  And Judge Greer would have ORDERED her back to bed and told her to DIE.

Terri's brother, Bobby, suggested that people check out the family's website to check out the facts and not to buy into the biased media spin.

sweetcollege_girl
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195 posted 2005-04-01 07:01 AM


Now that it is over, we should just be thankful that Terri has no more suffering, and that she is in a much better place than we are.

Forget the media, forget michael, forget the doctors, forget the judge. They will all have their days..and I for one, know I will be up there to see it. God is a good God. He knows their fates, and we should trust in him to take care of the situation.

I am in no way trying to step on other's shoes, this is just my opinion. Don't hate me

Praying for Terri's family,

~~SCG~~

LeeJ
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196 posted 2005-04-01 08:05 AM


I apologize on repeating, if I am, as I have not been able to read all of your replies,

personally I greive for her parents, now, to find out, even when her husband has won, he still persists on hate, and refuses to bury Terry, where her parents could visit her in Florida, but is shipping her back here to PA...what a hate driven man, foolish, selfish and unthinking...

sweetcollege_girl
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197 posted 2005-04-01 08:36 AM


That's not right..it seems to me that he really didn't want anything to do with her...why not just leave her where she's loved?

~~SCG~~

SEA
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198 posted 2005-04-01 11:01 AM


that's just it, he is a hateful person, and even in death does not want her to be loved. He does not want her parents to be able to see her easily. He is doing everything he can to make things be the opposite of what they want. No matter what...he is evil, vile and sad....
Juju
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199 posted 2005-04-01 12:49 PM


Did she even get last rights?

Juju

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Listening to every heart
200 posted 2005-04-01 02:09 PM



jbouder
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201 posted 2005-04-01 02:22 PM


I don't think demonizing Michael Shiavo is particularly productive.  There are other explanations (whether we believe them or not) for his determination to see this through.  We can't discount the possibility that he strongly believed he was being faithful to his wife's wishes, as he understood them.

Do I think the courts failed to give sufficient weight to Michael Schiavo's glaring conflicts of interest?  Absolutely.  If Terri Shiavo expressed to him, truly and unambiguously, that she wished to die rather than live the way she ended up living, is Michael Shiavo wrong for having done so?  I might answer "yes," others might answer "no," but under such circumstances, I might be inclined to admire his loyalty to her.  If Terri never really expressed such wishes and Michael fabricated the story for monetary gain, does that make him an immoral lout?  Yes.

There are just too many "ifs" in this sad story.  For me, I'm not willing to go further than saying the whole scenario was gravely unfortunate.  On the face, it seems that at least some of Mr. Schiavo's actions were unfair or even wrong (particularly when the parents were not permitted to be with Terri Schiavo when she died).  Whether that translates into maliciousness remains uncertain to me.  Maybe we'll know someday soon.  Maybe the autopsy will reveal she had some cognitive ability remaining that could have served as a foothold for new treatment.

If the courts followed the rule of law, then perhaps the legislature should consider improving the law, or at least clarify that living wills must be written in order to be actionable.  If the judges overstepped their authority, then there is a need for reforming the courts.  There's potentially enough blame to go around to exercise a little caution here.

Jim

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202 posted 2005-04-01 02:43 PM


Well, the problem was that Shiavo only remembered his wife's 'wishes' after the medical malpractice settlement.  Even then, it took a few years for him to recall passing comments 20 years prior.  Every single promise he made in court for the settlement were broken by the time he recalled her 'wishes', about the same time he persuaded Judge Greer to allow him to use all the funds earmarked for Terri's rehabilitation for legal fees, which promptly annulled a promise made during the settlement hearings to use the funds to help his wife.  I have no doubts that he put her there in the first place, and made very sure she would never contradict his stories.  People seem to forget that Terri could talk during those initial years, prior to the allegations of insulin injections.

He blocked access to all medical records, releasing only a handful 10 years after the fact from discovery attempts by the Shindler's attorney.  He refused MRI or PET scans.  He refused the polygraph.  He played the part of loving husband until he got a malpractice settlement, then sought and found cohorts who would help him legally kill his 'albatross'.

The physicians implicated during the malpractice hearings have all been cleared and reinstated, and several agencies are looking into possible fraud committed by Michael Shiavo.  I do wonder if he remembered to take out a large insurance policy on Terri, prior to feeding tube removals.

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203 posted 2005-04-01 03:08 PM


I do think she was able to recieve Last Rights. Denise?

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

Juju
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204 posted 2005-04-01 06:54 PM


no me

I just say that, as a cathlic. If he wouldn't give her last rightss than there would be something seriously wrong.  You see, When I heard that she was a vegi... I remember thinking, oh wait she can talk right? I don't know. I just think it is to late to save her, all we can do is paass laws and get some detectived one that guys back... IF I was a family member that is what I would do.  I heard that the guy was abusive????? verbally?????? and was all ways trying to get her to lose wait.... But I wouldn't trust that, because I could be thinking of some one else.  I know that the one sister hated him previous to her heart attack so  eh.  I hate being stupid, but what does injecting insolin do?


Juju

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Alicat
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205 posted 2005-04-01 07:17 PM


For a diabetic, insulin can be a life saver.  For a non-diabetic, it can kill you, sending you into glucose induced shock.  And I believe he was physically abusive.  The bone scan the family finally got hold of 10 years after it was originally taken showed 15 fractures, including several ribs, the sternum, and the femur.  The femur is the strongest bone in the body and can withstand impacts up to 400-450 pounds.  (Saw an episode on Myth Busters where they were rebuilding their dummy and needed to know the breaking point of the femur.)  By the time of the bone scan, all the fractures had healed on their own, but unless she was in a bad automobile accident, I'm at a loss how she could've gotten those naturally.  Not to mention her stiff neck upon initial admittance for her 'heart attack'.  Blood tests ruled out any heart attack, and the neck stiffness was synonymous with strangulation.  I did find it interesting that Michael first said she suddenly fell down in their apartment, then later said she had suffered a stroke, then later amended that to a heart attack which cut off circulation to her brain.  All those diagnoses from him were several years apart.

My view?  She demanded a divorce (which she was working up the courage to do...he is 6'8" after all), he beat the crap out of her, tried to choke her, then freaked out when he thought he had killed her.  His buddy the sheriff helped him out of a sticky legal mess.  I wish I knew who convinced Michael to file a medical malpractice suit against Terri's physicians, though I have an idea who convinced Michael to move Terri to a hospice.  Felos, who was on the board of the medical facility Terri was originally located.  My SO was stunned about the early move to a hospice, since that's where terminal patients go to die in relative comfort.  Felos, a proponent of euthenasia who became Michael's chief lawyer.  Felos, a personal friend of Michael's, along with Judge Greer.

It's quite a stretch of the English language to call Michael Terri's husband, seeing how he had already moved on, and moved in with another lady, and had 2 children by her.  But I guess you can't continue to be a legal guardian, executor of her estate, and payee of malpractice and insurance monies without being a spouse.  If he had divorced Terri, he would've had no say in anything, nor any claim to her settlement monies or insurance.

Denise
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206 posted 2005-04-01 08:27 PM


Yes, she received the last rights/sacrament of the sick and dying, the day of the feeding tube removal, and again on Easter. Bobby Schindler requested it again on Wednesday, the afternoon before she died and Michael denied permission.

Jim, as Ali said, there are too many documented inconsistencies with Michael Schiavo in his behavior.

There is no doubt in my mind that he attempted to kill her the night she collapsed, and I don't think it would be too hard to prove in a court of law if an honest autopsy is done. It would be so much neater, wouldn't it, though, for the judge, and the members of the Florida senate, not to mention Michael and Felos, if the autopsy reveals nothing remarkable other than a brain so deteriorated that it's amazing that she was even able to breathe without a respirator? "Geeze, aren't we wonderful for knowing how bad off she was and putting her out of her misery. Oops, well no, we didn't mean misery, because how could she feel misery when she didn't have a brain? But if she did have a brain and could tell us what she wanted, why of course she would want to be starved and dehydrated. Only dogs and criminals don't deserve that kind of treatment. Then it's cruel and unusual, and obviously extremely painful. If you are sick or disabled, it's a thing of beauty, a 'process' to be desired.

Sorry, I've become a bit jaded over the past few months. Nothing can surpise me anymore. I wonder why the governor didn't take control of the body and have an autopsy performed by a medical examiner from outside of Pinellas County due to all that has happened and with faith in the officials of Pinellas County non-existent? Maybe Greer wouldn't have permitted it. Maybe there was a stipulation to that in the court order that Michael obtained just prior to pulling the tube pertaining to the disposition of Terri's body after death. Too bad Bush didn't get elected judge, then maybe he would actually have some authority in the goings-on in Florida. Terri would at least have had an outside chance of still being alive...maybe.
  
According to a couple of psychiatric profiles that have been done on Scvhiavo, his actions are consistent with a spouse abuser of the controlling type, which has been reinforced in his need to control even Terri's 'death process' and burial, his obsessive need to call the shots, despite the pain that he causes to others.

He not only refused to allow Terri's family to be in the room during her last hour, he also announced through a statement that the Schindler family is not welcome at the funeral and burial of her ashes (he is cremating her despite the wishes of her family, and he also refused permission to let them have her body at a funeral mass prior to the cremation), 'somewhere near Philadelphia' in a plot that was left to the Schiavo's by an aunt and uncle (he might have to sell one of his Mercedes to purchase a plot for her in Florida near him and her family? ...sorry for the sarcasm...nothing this guy has ever done makes any sense to me, other than as calculated attempts to cause as much pain as possible to those he despises) and will not disclose the location because he doesn't want the Schindlers to turn her burial into a 'circus'. It remains to be seen whether he will ever let them know where she is buried. I suspect that he won't, as he knows this will increase their pain, and would be consistent with all his other actions. Any one who has ever lost someone knows how vitally important it is during the grieving process, especially in the first six months or so, to be able to just go and be at the gravesite.

And putting her family aside for a moment, why would he bury his 'beloved' wife where he won't even be able to visit her?

And yes, getting insulin when you don't need it can kill you by sending you into hypoglycemic shock. According to the sworn affidavit of the nurse, four or five times, after a visit by Michael, who himself is a nurse, she found that Terri's glucose reading was non-existent and she had to administer glucose to stabilize her. She reported it to her superiors, and to the police, and was fired after the last time that she reported an incident. It was never investigated by anybody.  


*News Flash*

It was just announced that the Pinellas County medical examiner refused to allow any outside medical examiners to participate in or witness the autopsy.

Geeze, I am soooooo surprised.

Denise
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207 posted 2005-04-01 08:48 PM


Thank you for putting up the candle, Karilea.

And thank you, Marge for being so thoughtful, and such a friend, in leaving such a lovely gift on my behalf for Terri's family at the hospice site. You are special.

Denise
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208 posted 2005-04-01 11:52 PM


quote:
Terri is dead

After 14 days of torture, Terri Shindler-Schiavo finally succumbed to her court ordered execution by dehydration and starvation this morning.

The judicial branch of our government ordered an innocent disabled citizen to be summarily executed in the most horrendous manner.

Terri held on as long as she could. Many people who had the power to end her torture and save her life were given repeated opportunities do so. They turned down all opportunities. I think this is significant. Many judges in Florida and Atlanta, as well as on the US Supreme Court have blood on their hands.

Quite a few legislators in Florida also have Terri's death on their conscience. They may appear to be moving on, but they carry this crime with them.

Every single police officer who guarded the Woodside Hospice is tainted. These are the people who faithfully guarded Terri's room and searched her family to make sure they didn't smuggle in any water or food for Terri. These are the people who arrested the protestors who attempted to walk into the Hospice carrying water to offer to Terri. I wonder how they go home to their families every day. I wonder how they even sleep at night.

People at the Woodside Hospice are also implicated in Terri's death. After all, they were the ones who actually carried out the procedures that lead to Terri's death.

The US Congress made the most valiant effort to save Terri, in my opinion. Still, I think the presence of people in the Congress who wanted Terri dead may have hindered the emergency bill passed on Palm Sunday from truly being effective. They all know who they are, and they too have blood on their hands.

There has been much debate over whether or not the Bush brothers ought to have intervened despite the court orders and despite what the procedures were. I don't have a real answer to that question. When Jeb Bush attempted to send in the DCF to take custody of Terri last Wednesday, Judge Greer was tipped off and he responded by issuing a broad restraining order, which the police force of Pinellas Park pledged to uphold. Any further action on Jeb Bush's part could have lead to a showdown at the hospice leading to violence. I can understand why he backed down, but I can't say I respect that decision. Both a governor and a president take an oath to uphold the Constitution. The Constitution prominently states that all people have an inaleable right to life. Terri's inaleable right to life was not upheld by either her governor or her president. In that respect, neither Jeb Bush, nor George Bush fully lived up to their oaths to uphold the Constitution. In the end, they too allowed Terri to die.

Although I tried to save Terri's life by calling on the people who had any real authority to use it, in the end she still died. Should I have done more? What do I do now? Am I in some way responsible for her death as well? I mean, how did we get to this point as a nation, where our government can order the death of an innocent citizen? What do ordinary citizens like Terri's parents do when evil people are in power? What does your voice matter when activist judges can flip off Congress, the governor and the president?

Terri Schiavo is dead, killed by court order. In America. This is only the beginning of something truly awful.

We can't bring Terri back. But for the sake of our children we must fight this "something truly awful" the forces of the Culture of Death are hoping to usher in with her death. Please do not give up this fight. Take the time to mourn. Then find your place in this war and fight for all you're worth.

http://www.blogsforterri.com/


Denise
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209 posted 2005-04-02 01:12 PM


For anyone wishing to send the Schindlers (Bob, Mary, Bobby and Suzanne) a sympathy card you can mail it to:

The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation
4615 Gulf Boulevard, 104-103
St. Petersburg, Florida  33706

For anyone wishing to send a Mass Card for Terri you can mail it to:

The Schindler Family
c/o Holy Name of Jesus Catholic Church
5800 15th Avenue South
Gulfport, Florida  33707

A funeral Mass will be held there on Tuesday, April 5th at 7 pm for Terri.

Please keep the family in your prayers.

Mistletoe Angel
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210 posted 2005-04-02 11:02 PM




I have written a sympathy card for Terri's family and will have it mailed Monday! Thanks for the contact information, Denise!



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God Bless You, Terri, rest in peace!

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My prayers also go out to her family on this most sensitive day for them.

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Now, again Denise, we haven't necessarily been eye to eye completely in the final days leading to her tragic passing, but I will say I still am deeply gladdened we found common ground together on this issue of life, I'm blessed by that!

I do hope that from this day forward we try and commit to ourselves the grave importance of this issue of long-term care and make sure those like Terri from here on out are given the fullest cushioning and respect before life decisions are made, and see to it that we can resolve future conflicts without resulting to political tug-of-war.

I myself was deeply troubled that Congress and others in higher positions of authority decided to intervene into the case and remove it from the state court, because it just saddens and troubles me to imagine in an editorial cartoon sense the depiction of one side that shares Terri's family's sentiments pulling Terri's arms and the other side that shares the sentiments of her husband pulling at her legs. In the end, I believe it not only tears the case apart, but the individual centered to the case itself.

I pray from this day forward that together we can recognize the issue of long-term care with both compassion and common sense. I fear myself that the end result of this will be Terri used as a stamp to further certain agendas, and I believe we must discipline ourselves to the best in taking the nervous energy generated from this debacle not for vilification of one another but as a positive outlet in the comfort and knowledge many have been truly touched and inspired by Terri and are interested in her example to see to it this sort of mistake doesn't happen again and in holding to that word we cooperate together in embracing the disabled and handicapped community.

Again, I am blessed we could have this thoughtful and productive discussion here.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

A Romantic Heart
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211 posted 2005-04-03 03:14 AM


Michael Shiavo is worse than Scott Peterson...makes me sick!

He wanted her dead to destroy evidence,(That is why the cremation not burial) he has been so afraid since he had tried to kill her the first time, that she would come out of this and tell the truth, and that is why no divorce, no recovery therepy. Think about it, it is all there in black and white.

You can't say you love someone in one breath and that you want to honor (your) their wishes,and be loving and living with a live-in wife with KIDS!
The proof is there, it has all been for his self!
Parents know, they just know, gut feelings, they know their children more than anyone and her parents knew who he was and what he has done!
At least Scott Peterson didn't have the government helping him to kill his wife!

This country needs another 911 wake up call, to open their eyes!(no, looks as though this one didn't help, or we would not have witnessed this unlawful act of injustice)

Now if the Schindlers had some oil or money to bargin with maybe their voice would have been heard,

Or if it was Ben Laddin or Hussin starving one of their disabled citizens, we would have to go in and demand justice, a cruel leader to preform such vile acts upon a human being? but the Shindlers don't own a country with oil do they?

The gas prices are outrageous,
Our troops need to come home,
Babies are being killed,
Starve a woman to death on national tv, allowing her husband to do it who probably abused her to put her there in the first place!

IS this is what America has become?

I hope Michael Shiavo reaps what he sows....
America needs to wake up and take a stand!

[This message has been edited by A Romantic Heart (04-04-2005 01:30 AM).]

Denise
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212 posted 2005-04-03 10:56 AM


Noah, The petition to Congress in this case to allow an appeal to the Federal Courts for a de novo hearing, (which the Federal Courts declined to grant) in light of all the obvious and blatant improprieties involved in the state court activities that led to the ORDER of death, would have been one of those cushions that you say we need.

And I see nothing wrong or inappropriate, in the attempt to have laws changed that would prevent another innocent person finding themselves in Terri's situation, to invoke the name, image, facts and details of Terri Schiavo.

Speaking of the final ORDER of Judge Greer, I'm sure many do not know that it was not an ORDER simply allowing Michael Schiavo to have the feeding tube removed as was the original ORDER of 2000. This was an ORDER that stated that Schiavo shall cause it to be removed, essentially removing even Michael Schiavo's right to act in the event of a change of heart about the situation, a fact that George Felos, Michael Schiavo's lawyer, was only too glad to state to the public. And it didn't merely state the 'feeding tube' shall be withdrawn, it stated 'food and hydration' shall be withdrawn.

The court did more than affirm the guardian's right to act, the court directly ordered the death to be effected, of a person who was not terminally ill, of a person who could not physically enunciate clearly enough, to the court's satisfaction, that she wanted to live. In response to one of the family's lawyer's urging to Terri that she could stop all of this right now, shortly before the feeding tube was removed, if she could only say, "I want to live", the court did not find the sworn affidavit of the attorney asserting Terri's reply of "AAAAHHHHH WAAAAAAAA" followed by an anguished scream, and then sobbing (by a pesron who has been denied speech therapy for 15 years), all heard by Terri's sister and brother-in-law and the police guard at the door (who initially stated that she did in fact hear it but then later recanted her statement) credible, and that even if he did find it credible, he was denying the motion because, in his opinion, it was not timely filed, regardless of the fact that the affidavit was part of the attorneys' planned submission to the Federal Court, if they were granted the de novo hearing, as authorized by Congress, that they tried to obtain that entire week, which as we have seen, was denied them, and since all hearings at the Federal level were denied, making it impossible to present this affidavit at the Federal level, they subsequently petitioned the State Court with the evidence.  Here is what I shared earlier about this:

quote:
  
I've also been sickened and angered by the media spin and Felos's spin about the family waiting until last night to tell Judge Greer about Terri trying to say "I want to live", implicating that it was a false statement. I personally read that statement by Barbara Weller the same evening of the day that the feeding tube was removed on March 18th. And here is the proof: (notice the date of the report)  http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43383  



The judge then further overstepped his authority, by Florida statute, when the parents petitioned to be able to attempt to nourish and hydrate her orally, since she could swallow, even if minimally, in that she did eat soft foods by spoon prior to the husband forbidding it after the feeding tube was placed (to ensure proper levels of nutrition), and in that she swallowed her own saliva and sinus secretions without choking. People who can't swallow can't do that. In reponse to this final petition the judge ordered that no food and hydration could be administered orally, even to the extent that not even ice chips could be placed on her tongue, nor a wet sponge applied to her dried cracked and bleeding lips, nor could the inside of her mouth be swabbed with water, all standard protocols for hospice care, in the relieving of suffering.

And in response to your dismay at my saying in Ali’s thread  (to which I won’t be replying in there anymore about this, out of respect for Ali) ‘liberals are from another planet’, I was mistaken. I should have said that ‘most liberals are from another planet’, because some liberal politicians actually did take a stand for justice and for the importance of the principle of the guarantee of the right to life in this case, refusing to bring this down to the level of playing politics with a person’s life on the line, whereas there were some conservative politicians who did just the opposite and placed political maneuverings and considerations above what should have been the paramount issue under consideration, the Constitutionally guaranteed right to life of a fellow human being. They too are from another planet, as far as I am concerned. My sincerest apologies.

ARH, you’re right, 911 didn’t wake us up and apparently this hasn’t either. I plan to work to change that.

And I agree that it is hypocritical to be sacrificing our sons and daughters on the battlefield to ensure the human rights of others, when here at home there is seemingly very little political will, or courage, to protect those same rights of American citizens, particularly the weakest among us.

I am still proud to be an American, but I am ashamed of our leaders. No one, not even the president, is bound to honor a court order arrived at through blatant violations of the law or an order at odds with the law and the moral or natural law. But that is also something that we can work to change.

[This message has been edited by Denise (04-03-2005 11:29 AM).]

Denise
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213 posted 2005-04-03 02:54 PM


Here is a link that you may want to bookmark to access news on the latest investigative efforts and happenings regarding Terri's situation that, sadly, led to her death.
http://www.theempirejournal.com/


Denise
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214 posted 2005-04-03 11:25 PM



Finally, a poll that asked the right question. What a difference the truth makes in the outcome.

quote:
Another Zogby question hits directly on Terri's circumstances.

"If a disabled person is not terminally ill, not in a coma, and not being kept alive on life support, and they have no written directive, should or should they not be denied food and water," the poll asked.
A whopping 79 percent said the patient should not have food and water taken away while just 9 percent said yes.


http://www.lifenews.com/bio891.html

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215 posted 2005-04-04 12:02 PM


This country needs another 911 wake up call, to open their eyes!(no, looks as though this one didn't help, or we would not have witnessed this unlawful act of injustice)'''


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With out a doubt thats the worst thing I have ever read!!! and it has NOTHING to do with this case.....how shameful a thought!

jbouder
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216 posted 2005-04-04 01:53 PM


quote:
This country needs another 911 wake up call, to open their eyes!


No, it just needs to stop pushing the rights of the disabled to the margins of our civilization.  Disability is a fact of the human condition - treating it as an unwanted drain on resources dehumanizes the disabled and diminishes the humanity of both the disabled and the nondisabled.  A "wake-up call" won't suffice - what must happen is a systematic change of common attitudes toward disability and a willingness to go to bat for those who, for whatever reason, cannot go to bat for themselves.

Jim

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217 posted 2005-04-04 03:30 PM


I have mailed the sympathy card for Terri's family!

No, Erica, I absolutely do not believe in your comment regarding that "this country needs another 911 wake up call." I actually find that type of thought offensive to me, similar to the thinking that got Ward Churchill into such controversy when he said the only way everyone would understand, in his view, that some America foreign policies were repressive regimes in the minds of others across the world, would there to be more 9/11 like attacks on our own soil.

I absolutely disagree. Look, about 4 in 5 Americans believed it was wrong for Congress to intervene in the manner it did (like I do), while a majority of Americans also believed they would have made the same decision of a feeding tube removal in their own situation like that (I wouldn't).

The important thing to notice here is that there is approximately a 20% spread between those who believe it was wrong for Congress to intervene and those who believe in the decision to have the feeding tube removed. That means something to me here in the overall potential her survival case may have had.

Even there, we may be in the minority view here regarding the feeding tube debacle, but I'm inspired by the symbolic display of millions who pulled for and supported Terri in this unfortunate tug-of-war on her life, and despite the disagreements in every pocket, I believe that most believe beyond the differences we must see to it this type of instance doesn't happen again and together we can reach beyond the dissent of Schiavo and work to save other lives like hers.

I have faith enough have already awakened to understand the importance and dignity behind the rights of the disabled and handicapped.

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Denise, your apology is accepted. I will add though that I just don't believe this sort of "you're from another planet" behavior ever helps anyone, and certainly wouldn't have ever helped Terri if she were still alive, as well as those who are facing similar fates right now.

Look, I can admit and anyone can agree I paint negative portrayals of Bush. I truly believe he has done more wrong than he has done good, and the nation has been going in the wrong direction under him. But I also have never made inflating generalizations that all conservatives must treat Bush like a messiah and such just because most vote his way in the election, thus must be from another galaxy or such. I don't believe that and never will, for we are all unique and we are a lot deeper and individual than many often forget to think.

I don't agree with the Democratic Party on many things as well, which make me not a Democrat, but an independent. I believe they've been too soft on corporate crime, they supported the war in Iraq before coming to their senses more, though many Democrats in the House still voted for the $82 billion resolution. And they just don't make many courageous stands for progressive values and such which most Americans want, such as environmental protection, a living wage and funding into alternative fuels.

Just because two Democratic senators from Hawaii happened to have went the wrong way on the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge vote, which was very troubling to me, doesn't automatically make me believe they must be from another planet. Just because a number of Democrats signed that troubling class action bill to make it harder for individuals to ever sue corporations for wrong-doings and injustice in the workforce, which was beyond troubling, doesn't automatically make it so.

I believe there are many wonderful Republicans and conservatives out there, like my grandparents. And even among those I have general disagreement with I believe there is a human and spiritual connection between us all and it is essential we try and explore that sort of relation.

That's just what I was trying to get across in reaction to that comment. I just don't think that sort of comment really helps advancing these sensitive issues in a way we can be prepared to find unison. I'm a more patient person, but there are other liberals out there who are not so much so, and that sort of comment would shy them away from wanting to cooperate because they may perceive the comment as being the impatient bi-polar.

(angel friendship hugs) I hope what I said made sense! Thanks, dearest friend!



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There's one other thing that hasn't necessarily been brought up here that I find extremely relevant.

The Schiavo protests outside the hospice that were televised.

I was absolutely gladdened to see their voices were being heard, that their protests were being televised. Especially considering, according to poll results, that they were representing the minority opinion on this sensitive issue that urgently wanted their message to be received and hope to make a difference. I cried in warmth seeing that happen.

And my response to that is, "Let this be example to how all sorts of protests should be televised."

I hope you can see now what I was arguing before about the way the anti-war protests and such were virtually completely shut out of the major networks and cable news outlets, with not ONE interview with a protester being conducted on the second anniversary of the war in Iraq, which tens of thousands of Americans went out and protested the invasion, with tens of thousands more worldwide.

Imagine, if you will, that none of those protests that were fortunately televised weren't. You'd feel rejected, isolated, pushed aside, even when you believe you speak with a true conscience so many others can relate to.

That's exactly how I've been feeling, despite many polls now revealing tha a majority disapprove of the handling of the war in Iraq, of the media continuing to flush all dissenting voices out of the lens.

Whether the protest is anti-war, pro-life, pro-choice, you name it, all these protests SHOULD be aired in the manner the Schiavo protests were, for we are the people, and the megaphone must return back to democracy and restricted not to "officialdom".

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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218 posted 2005-04-04 06:36 PM


I didn't say that :P


Denise
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219 posted 2005-04-04 06:40 PM


The people holding vigil and protesting outside the hospice weren't the minority voice, Noah. You may have missed the results of the Zogby Poll, the only published poll that I know of that actually asked the right question as it pertained to Terri's situation and circumstances. Here it is again for you:

quote:
Another Zogby question hits directly on Terri's circumstances.

"If a disabled person is not terminally ill, not in a coma, and not being kept alive on life support, and they have no written directive, should or should they not be denied food and water," the poll asked.
A whopping 79 percent said the patient should not have food and water taken away while just 9 percent said yes.


http://www.lifenews.com/bio891.html

Juju
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220 posted 2005-04-05 12:43 PM


Noah my friend, you Took her words out of context.

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221 posted 2005-04-05 01:50 PM


I do wholeheartedly apologize if I took your comment out of context, my friend. It was not intentional if I have accidentally done so.

But I believe it's important to add, however, you must be careful in how you phrase out points with 9/11 in particular attached to it. There's just so much controversy eclipsing that term alone wherever it is stamped, and when you phrase it in terms of "this country needs another 9/11 wake-up call", many may misunderstand or misinterpret you and may feel offended.

And I wasn't directly comparing your comment to Ward Churchill's, by the way. I brought up Churchill because that's how his huge controversy surrounding him and the University of Colorado began. He argued in his essay, "Some People Push Back" that it's no suprise 9/11 happened because others in the world felt repressed under some American-led foreign regimes and that encouraged repressive behavior that motivated the attacks, calling those who encouraged those repressive foreign policies "little Eichmanns" and then saying that Americans in general won't ever stand up and protest these sort of foreign policies unless more 9/11's happen.

You see, though Churchill and his opinions are not to my taste personally, it's no suprise that his words and arguments were taken out of context very much, with many pundits saying because Churchill made that argument that in conclusion, Churchill wants more 9/11 attacks to happen in America and such. On a topic so sensitive as 9/11, anything can instantly become a headline.

(hugs) I apologize if I took your comment the wrong way. I only ask for you to be careful is all, only trying to help here.



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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222 posted 2005-04-05 02:00 PM


That's correct, Denise. Thanks for sharing that! I do believe those results.

By minority voice, I meant regarding the debate if Congress and the president should have intervened or not, as well as if others would have had their spouse's feeding tube removed in their own situation. In those instances, we are currently the minority.

Sorry for the misunderstanding there, Denise! (hugs)

Indeed, however, that still doesn't shift the importance of all voices in being represented in our mainstream media.

Those protests that were televised during every 15-minute update on Headline News and earned slots during the nighlty cable broadcasts, THAT'S exactly how I wish all other protests could be treated in terms of coverage. Is it too much to ask for five minutes every hour or so?

Is it too much to ask one day of the year (March 19) to have those anti-war protests televised in a format similar to the protests outside the Florida hospice? Is it too much to ask that, even if only for the day on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade that both pro-life and pro-choice protests could be represented on the airwaves?

That's all I'm arguing here.

I'm very happy that all those who pulled for Terri's life had their voices heard and were represented much of last week.

This may be blind hope, but I do hope that perhaps some lesson has been learned from all of this how true it is that dissent completes democracy.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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223 posted 2005-04-05 03:22 PM


quote:
I do hope that perhaps some lesson has been learned from all of this ...

Noah, in several ways, the answer is "yes".

Today at lunch with a dear friend, with "very old" in-laws, explained to me that "finally" her in-laws are learning that they can't go on much longer without getting their affairs in order. Not just as to Wills, but directives such as Terri did not have, as well. While that's the barest of things many of us learned, there is much more that we as a nation learned as a whole. And not just about one person.

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224 posted 2005-04-05 10:27 PM


Noah, polls are only as good as the questions asked. I'm sure if the polls had asked "should a mentally disabled woman who is not on life support, is not terminally ill, is not brain dead, has no written directive, has a guardian who has severe and several conflicts of interests who has petitioned a judge to withdraw her food and water, and a judge who has broken several statutes to be able to arrive at his decision for the withdrawal, should the Congress intervene to insure her 14th Amendment right to life?" I'm sure the numbers would be different.


Yes, we've learned quite a lot, Karilea, and I can already see the hand of God bringing much good out of this.

For one thing, educating people needs to be done about so many issues. Issues such as the promotion of "living wills", which are actually focused toward death and are supported and promoted by euthanasia proponents. The wordings tend to be vague enough in most cases to leave them open to interpretation. And they usually lump "conditions" in with terminal illness, so you could end up being starved to death, legally, even if you have a non-life threatening condition or disability. You may mean one thing, your family may think you meant another, but in the end, it is the doctor's interpretation that matters, if you can't physically speak for yourself. Thanks to a "living will", he overrides your family in that case. And if it is the doctor's interpretation that you didn't want something in a particular situation, you're not going to get it, including food and hydration, even if you are only disabled and not in a terminal illness situation. The wordings can trip you up and your understanding of a word is probably not a lawyer's or doctor's understanding. If you aren't careful, you could be signing your own death warrant. And relieving society (insurance companies, medical institutions, the government) of the "burden" of you. Be very careful what you sign.

A much better, and safer vehicle, is something called the "Will to Live" which can be downloaded from the National Right to Life site and can also be obtained from Catholic churches. They are geared toward life, and are worded more to what most of us understand (incorrectly) "living wills" to mean, removing extraordinary life support measures when death is imminent, when we are already in the end stages of death and the extraordinary measures just prolong the dying. And you can state that nutrition would only be withheld if your body could no longer process it, and request that hydration be continued to prevent undue suffering.

We also need to reducate people about the workings of the government, how it is supposed to work, and how easily corrupted from its principles it can become.

People also need to take a hard look at the notion that the "rule of law" must be upheld to the extent that innocent people are put to death at the behest of a corrupt court. How far have we fallen? Didn't even Jesus admonish the Pharisees for their meticulous adherence to the law to the extent of even "tithing mint, dill and cumin, but neglectling the weightier provisions of the law, such as mercy and justice and truth"? If we had courageous leaders back in the 60's that went against a State court order, and sent in the National Guard to escort black children safely into what had always been a whites only school, in violation of the state court order, why did we not have courageous leaders to send in the National Guard to save an innocent disabled person from the cruel and inhumane order of death by starvation and dehydration? Does anyone seriously believe that the local police would have engaged in a shoot-out with the military?

Something that is considered cruel and inhumane for animals and criminals was allowed to happen to a fellow human being, with the entire world looking on at the agonized pleas for mercy from her family, and to the extent that she was even denied the normal hospice comfort measures of ice chips and a wet sponge to alleviate her suffering, all by court order. I can't get my mind around any of it. It has pierced me to the core of my being. It has sent me crashing to my knees before God. And I can't stop crying.

The mother was denied her request to the judge and her son-in-law, first the very life of her daughter, and to add insult to injury, after her death and before the cremation, a lock of her daughter's hair, or a small portion of her ashes. DENIED.

Many issues have to be looked at, evaluated and reevaluated. Laws need changing. Corrupt judges and lawyers and politicians need to answer for their actions.

Foremost, we need God's wisdom to navigate this treacherous world. We are facing the increasing devaluation of the sanctity of life, with an increasing emphasis on the quality of life. We are slowly but surely becoming brainwashed to the philosphy that it isn't life that matters, but its quality, and if a person lacks in some way what the norm has become in terms of the current definition of quality, then that person's life is not worthy of protection, not worth fighting for, not worth dying for. In essence, in our thinking they become non-human. We are quickly forgetting our responsibility of the strong defending the weak and we are becoming more like the inferior animal world where it is survival of the fittest.

The euthenasia proponents are cunning and frame this as an issue of choice. But they in effect are taking choice away from us when they lobby for laws that favor their philosphies and push policies in hospitals that give the authority over life and death to the doctors and remove that authority from the patient and the patient's family members.

Perhaps what needs to be done is to figure out a way to write the laws whereby the euthanasia propenents can only kill each other and leave the rest of us alone.

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225 posted 2005-04-05 10:42 PM


I just caught a portion of Terri's funeral. Some kind soul sent his Purple Heart medal for Terri, that her brother held up for everyone to see. A very touching tribute.
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226 posted 2005-04-06 12:26 PM


My kind of liberal:

quote:
I will be returning to the legacy of Terri Schiavo in the weeks ahead because there will certainly be long-term reverberations from this case and its fracturing of the rule of law in the Florida courts and then the federal courts—as well as the disgracefully ignorant coverage of the case by the great majority of the media, including such pillars of the trade as The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Miami Herald, and the Los Angeles Times as they copied each other's misinformation, like Terri Schiavo being "in a persistent vegetative state."

Do you know that nearly every major disability rights organization in the country has filed a legal brief in support of Terri's right to live?

But before I go back to other Liberty Beats—the CIA's torture renditions and the whitewashing of the landmark ACLU and Human Rights First's lawsuit against Donald Rumsfeld for his accountability in the widespread abuse of detainees, including evidence of torture—I must correct the media and various "qualified experts" on how a person dies of dehydration if he or she is sentient, as Terri Schiavo demonstrably is.

On March 15's Nightline, in an appallingly one-sided, distorted account of the Schiavo case, Terri's husband, Michael—who'd like to marry the woman he's now living with—said that once Terri's feeding tube is removed at his insistent command, Terri "will drift off into a nice little sleep and eventually pass on and be with God."

As an atheist, I cannot speak to what he describes as his abandoned wife's ultimate destination, but I can tell how Wesley Smith (consultant to the Center for Bioethics and Culture)—whom I often consult on these bitterly controversial cases because of his carefully researched books and articles—describes death by dehydration.

In his book Forced Exit (Times Books), Wesley quotes neurologist William Burke: "A conscious person would feel it [dehydration] just as you and I would. . . . Their skin cracks, their tongue cracks, their lips crack. They may have nosebleeds because of the drying of the mucous membranes, and heaving and vomiting might ensue because of the drying out of the stomach lining.

"They feel the pangs of hunger and thirst. Imagine going one day without a glass of water! . . . It is an extremely agonizing death."

On March 23, outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo was growing steadily weaker, her mother, Mary, said to the courts and to anyone who would listen and maybe somehow save her daughter:
"Please stop this cruelty!"

While this cruelty was going on in the hospice, Michael Schiavo's serpentine lawyer, George Felos, said to one and all: "Terri is stable, peaceful, and calm. . . . She looked beautiful."

During the March 21 hearing before Federal Judge James D. Whittemore, who was soon to be another accomplice in the dehydration of Terri, the relentless Mr. Felos, anticipating the end of the deathwatch, said to the judge:
"Yes, life is sacred, but so is liberty, your honor, especially in this country."

It would be useless, but nonetheless, I would like to inform George Felos that, as Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas said: "The history of liberty is the history of due process"—fundamental fairness.

Contrary to what you've read and seen in most of the media, due process has been lethally absent in Terri Schiavo's long merciless journey through the American court system.

"As to legal concerns," writes William Anderson—a senior psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital and a lecturer at Harvard University—"a guardian may refuse any medical treatment, but drinking water is not such a procedure. It is not within the power of a guardian to withhold, and not in the power of a rational court to prohibit."

Ralph Nader agrees. In a statement on March 24, he and Wesley Smith (author of, among other books, Culture of Death: The Assault of Medical Ethics in America) said: "The court is imposing process over justice. After the first trial [before Judge Greer], much evidence has been produced that should allow for a new trial—which was the point of the hasty federal legislation.

"If this were a death penalty case, this evidence would demand reconsideration. Yet, an innocent, disabled woman is receiving less justice. . . . This case is rife with doubt. Justice demands that Terri be permitted to live."

But the polls around the country cried out that a considerable majority of Americans wanted her to die without Congress butting in.

A March 20 ABC poll showed that 60 percent of the 501 adults consulted opposed the ultimately unsuccessful federal legislation, and only 35 percent approved. Moreover, 70 percent felt strongly that it was wrong for Congress to get into such personal, private matters—and interfere with what some advocates of euthanasia call "death with dignity." (So much for the Fourteenth Amendment's guarantee of due process and equal protection of the laws.)

But, as Cathy Cleaver Ruse of the Secretariat for Pro-Life Activities of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops pointed out:
"The poll [questions] say she's 'on life support,' which is not true [since all she needs is water], and that she has 'no consciousness,' which her family and dozens of doctors dispute in sworn affidavits."

Many readers of this column are pro-choice, pro-abortion rights. But what choice did Terri Schiavo have under our vaunted rule of law—which the president is eagerly trying to export to the rest of the world? She had not left a living will or a durable power of attorney, and so could not speak for herself. But the American system of justice would not slake her thirst as she, on television, was dying in front of us all.

What kind of a nation are we becoming? The CIA outsources torture—in violation of American and international law—in the name of the freedoms we are fighting to protect against terrorism. And we have watched as this woman, whose only crime is that she is disabled, is tortured to death by judges, all the way to the Supreme Court.

And keep in mind from the Ralph Nader-Wesley Smith report: "The courts . . . have [also] ordered that no attempts be made to provide her water or food by mouth. Terri swallows her own saliva. Spoon feeding is not medical treatment. This outrageous order proves that the courts are not merely permitting medical treatment to be withheld, they have ordered her to be made dead."

In this country, even condemned serial killers are not executed in this way.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0513,hentoff,62489,6.html

Denise
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227 posted 2005-04-07 09:00 PM


Here is an article that explains the difference between Living Will and Will to Live Documents, with a link at the bottom to request a Will to Live. You can also get one from the National Right to Life site and from any Catholic church.

http://mysite.verizon.net/cureltd/id12.html

Terri's brother and sister will be on Hannity and Colmes, which starts now, 9PM Eastern.
  

Sunshine
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228 posted 2005-04-08 01:29 PM


Denise?

Here's a flip side to the controversy.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43688


Denise
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229 posted 2005-04-09 12:40 PM


quote:
April 2, 2005

The volunteers with the Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation join today in mourning with the Schindler family over the loss of their beloved daughter and sister. We firmly believe that justice was not realized in Terri's case and that her death represents both a waste of precious, human life and a tragic failing of one of America's vulnerable citizens.

Throughout this ordeal, the volunteers of Terri's Foundation have served as a tremendous public service to others by raising awareness of her situation and the dangerous precedent it presents.

People from all walks of life have stood with the Schindler family in their efforts to protect Terri Schiavo from a forced death of dehydration and starvation. Many pledged their time, thousands contacted lawmakers and countless individuals kept her story alive across the internet and in communities throughout the world.

In spite of their efforts, many join us now in grief at the loss of a precious person who has been so miserably failed by the system that should have protected her.

In her honor, we must continue our efforts.

Accountability must be demanded of the Judiciary. It is thought by many that guardianship laws of Florida have long been overlooked by the circuit judge presiding over Terri's case. If so, this judge must be held accountable for his actions.

It is also thought that Terri's case presents a dangerous case law that could allow deprivation deaths to be forced upon disabled, elderly and chronically ill individuals more easily. It is time to reexamine the laws so that adequate protections for our vulnerable members of society can be enacted.

Terri's story is not one of a family feud. Rather, it is one of how our system has failed to protect the members of our communities who need protection the most. We must take it upon ourselves to help educate society about the struggles of profoundly disabled people so that their lives and liberties are valued and so they are not made the victim of extreme prejudice.

In the coming weeks, the Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation will present a course of action that addresses these issues. We do not seek to interfere in the personal choices of the individual. Rather, we seek to protect those who can fall victim to the whims of others and the hands of judges.

Please be certain to check back soon for information and details of how you can help. If you would like to be updated via email, please contact us here:  subscribe@terrisfight.org   Note: Your email address will not be shared with any third party.

On behalf of the Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation, we thank all those who dedicated their time, their prayers and their lives to protecting the life and liberty of Terri.

Our job is far from done.


http://www.terrisfight.org/



Denise
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230 posted 2005-04-09 01:13 PM



quote:
  
Krugman wraps up with the real point of his piece. “America isn’t yet a place where liberal politicians, and even conservatives who aren’t sufficiently hard-line, fear assassination. But unless moderates take a stand against the growing power of domestic extremists, it can happen here.”

What flawless logic. If we hadn’t starved a particular woman in Florida to death, every liberal politician could have been at risk of being murdered. Krugman is engaged in a clever attempt to deflect attention away from the death of one particular woman by bringing up the frightening specter of the future deaths of unnamed prominent people.

Speaking of death, let’s play a thought experiment. What if, instead of pulling Terri Schiavo’s feeding tube, Judge George Greer or her husband Michael had walked into her hospice room on March 18 and injected her with a lethal dose of morphine.

For Terri, the outcome would be the same, although she certainly would have been spared needless suffering. However, for the injector, the outcome would be much different. He’d probably be in jail today, charged with murder.

To review: A woman’s only source of food and water was shut off until she died. And, because a judge ordered it, it’s all nice and legal.

Everyone is against killing, even -- and in this case, especially -- the people Krugman calls “extremists.” They were the ones who wanted to keep feeding Terri. It’s the person he considers a non-extremist -- Judge Greer -- who directly caused Terri Schiavo’s death.

Liberal politicians need not fear for their lives. Unless, that is, they get sick and require a feeding tube. In that case, it’ll be conservative “extremists,” not the Paul Krugman’s of the world, who are most likely to fight to keep them alive. How ironic.



http://www.townhall.com/columnists/richtucker/rt20050408.shtml

Denise
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231 posted 2005-04-11 11:25 PM


Notice the progressive change in language, the parts I underlined, used by Judge Greer in his successive ORDERS:

Feb. 11, 2000 original order to remove Terri's feeding tube:

ORDERED AND ADJUDGED that the Petition for Authorization to Discontinue Artificial Life Support of Michael Schiavo, Guardian of the Person of Theresa Marie Schiavo, an incapacitated person, be and the same is hereby GRANTED and Petitioner/Guardian is hereby authorized to proceed with the discontinuance of said artificial life support for Theresa Marie Schiavo.


November 22, 2002 court order:

FURTHER ORDERED AND ADJUDGED that Michael Schiavo, as Guardian of the Person of Theresa Marie Schiavo, shall withdraw or cause to be withdrawn the artificial life-support (hydration and nutrition tube) from Theresa Marie Schiavo at 3:00 p.m. on January 3, 2003.

September 17, 2003 court order:

ORDERED AND ADJUDGED that the Guardian, Michael Schiavo, shall cause the removal of the nutrition and hydration tube from the Ward, Theresa Marie Schiavo, at 2:00 p.m. on the 15th day of October, 2003.

February 25, 2005 court order:

ORDERED AND ADJUDGED that absent a stay from the appellate courts, the guardian, Michael Schiavo, shall cause the removal of nutrition and hydration, from the Ward, THERESA SCHIAVO, at 1:00 p.m. on Friday, March 18, 2005.

His last order does not distinguish between artificial and natural nutrition and hydration, but is an ORDER to withhold ALL nutrition and hydraton, artificial or natural(which he later affirmed when the parents petitioned to attempt to feed and hydrate her naturally), a clear violation of the following statute. He would have been within the current reading of the law if he had not forbidden all nutrition and hydration, and only permitted the withdrawal of the feeding tube. Terri wasn't dying and what he did could not be construed, by any stretch of the imagination, as simply allowing the natural process of dying.

765.309 Florida Statute: Mercy Killing of Euthanasia Not Authorized; Suicide Distinguished. -- (1) Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to condone, authorize, or approve mercy killing or euthanasia, or to permit any affirmative or deliberate act of omission to end the life other than to permit the natural process of dying. (2) The withholding or withdrawal of life-prolonging procedures from a patient in accordance with any provision of this chapter does not, for any purpose, constitute a suicide.


Juju
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232 posted 2005-04-12 02:27 AM


Well Some one wanted her dead. (rolling eyes)
You see it gets bad when a judge says you cant feed some one naturally.

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Denise
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233 posted 2005-04-14 10:00 PM


Very bad, Juju. Illegal.

It seems that there is even a Catholic version of the Living Will that is just as vague as what some call the secular type of Living Wills, and therefore just as dangerous. So, if you want your rights protected as much as possible, get a Will to Live document.

This article explains it. It's sad that we have come to the point where you have to affirm in writing your wishes to not be denied life saving treatments, medicines, measures, etc. And in some cases, despite what you have written, as we have see with Granny Mae, some may still not honor your written wishes.

But it's best to protect yourself by writing down, explicitly, what you want, and to be very careful of what you sign. You can't trust that something is really what you think it is just because it is Catholic.
http://mysite.verizon.net/cureltd/id24.html

Marge Tindal
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234 posted 2005-04-17 01:08 PM



Respectively remembering Terri on this day and in ALL the days ahead~
She was TOO IMPORTANT to drop off the pages of the newspapers just because she was inhumanely and judically murdered by the system by starvation and dehydration~

I'd like to encourage those concerned about the inhumanity of what happened to Terri to CONTINUE HER FIGHT FOR LIFE~

May all those involved in her murder be brought to justice in my time~

Denise
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235 posted 2005-04-17 05:27 PM


Thanks, Marge. Those who do see the inhumanity of what was done, and the injustice, will continue to fight for the right to life for the weakest members of our society, and will mount a concerted effort to bring to justice all those involved in this particular case.

I was perplexed at the choosing of Terri for the test case of the right-to-die of people who are not terminally ill nor in an irreversible coma, and who have no written advance directive. It would have been much less controversial if they had chosen someone who was actually on life support, hooked up to machines that were doing the work of her lungs and heart, or someone who was actually in a verifiable coma state or PVS state. I think they chose her precisely because her situation would be controversial, and in prevailing in her situation, as they knew they would with the backing of the corrupt officials and judges, and the backing of the ACLU (and Felos was an ACLU attorney in the past...surprise, surprise), the precedent that would be set would be so much more valuable to them for future cases. If they could kill someone like Terri, afterall, they could certainly 'justifiably' kill others much worse off than she was without much resistence. For shock value, more than anything else, I think they chose her to test the waters of public opinion regarding the forced ending of the life of a 'deficient' person. And I think most people were shell-shocked and their minds simply couldn't let them fully realize the gravity of what was actually happening. I think a lot of people justified it by choosing to believe that she wasn't really 'there' anyway, or why else would someone be trying to 'let her die' (but they didn't 'let her die', they starved and dehydrated her, deliberately, in order to 'make her dead', she wasn't dying of anything else prior to that).


Here is an interesting article that sheds a little light onto Judge Greer:
http://www.theempirejournal.com/416052_death_is_not_harmless_err.htm

Denise
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236 posted 2005-04-17 08:16 PM


If anyone here is interested in doing something further, whether they be conservative, liberal, or middle-of-the-roader, and since it seems that nothing is going to be done on the State level, you can email the US Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales, and ask that the Justice Department conduct a full investigation into all aspects surrounding the Schiavo matter at:

askdoj@usdoj.gov



hush
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237 posted 2005-04-19 07:55 AM


Look, despite the complications of this case, I really don't think it's a nationwide conspiracy to kill off the weak and sick... she wasn't wanted dead by everyone because she was an inconvenience, she was wanted dead by her husband either for ulterior motives or because he honestly felt she wouldn't want to be kept alive. It just got blown up to a national focus because of the great deal of controversy.
Denise
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238 posted 2005-04-22 06:10 AM


Please pray for Baby Charlotte. The British Courts have decided that if she needs to be resuscitated again, she can't be.
http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/04/baby_charlotte_1.php#more

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