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Passions in Poetry

Where is the outrage?

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Denise
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125 posted 03-26-2005 11:57 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I hate what has become of this country due to judicial tyranny. Combined with a disregard for the sanctity of human life you have pure insanity.
Marge Tindal
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126 posted 03-27-2005 08:54 AM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

OhDenise~
On this Holiest of Holy days ... I, too, have feelings of hatred for what continues to happen to Terri Schiavo~

This is despicable -
quote:
Paul O’Donnell, a Roman Catholic Franciscan monk, said the family unsuccessfully urged Michael Schiavo to allow his wife the sacrament of communion during the holiest day of the Catholic year. She received last rites the day the feeding tube was pulled.'

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7293186/



Marge Tindal
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127 posted 03-27-2005 10:47 AM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Kate Adamson
quote:
"The measure of a society is how they treat the least of us. Life is sacred or meaningless, there is nothing in between."


Do you wonder just 'who' Kate Adamson is ?
This links at Terri's site will tell you not only 'who' she is, but exactly how her story relates to Terri Schiavo's right to LIVE~ http://www.terrisfight.net/

Thank the Good Lord Kate had a husband, in the truest sense of the word, who CARED about her and LOVED her beyond all measure~
quote:

Recovered "vegetative State" patient Kate Adamson Speaks Before Schiavo Rally
Withdrawal of food and water was "one of the most painful experiences you can imagine"

CLEARWATER, FL., March 14, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) - On Saturday a rally of over three-hundred of Terri Schiavo’s most die-hard supporters heard the first-hand account of the sufferings and remarkable recovery of Kate Adamson. Struck down in 1995 at the age of thirty-three by a rare double brainstem stroke, Kate, then a mother of two young girls, was completely paralyzed; she was unable even to blink her eyes. Like Terri Schiavo, the medical staff treating her questioned the merit of continuing granting Kate the most basic human right of food and water.

Terri Schiavo, although not nearly as severely disabled as Adamson once appeared to be, is slotted to have her feeding tube removed at 1:00 pm this Friday. Similarly, Kate Adamson’s feeding tube was at one point removed for a full eight days before being reinserted due to the intervention of her husband (also a competent lawyer).

Frequently described by medical authorities as a humane way to die, Kate - now as vibrant and beautiful as before her stroke - testified before the crowd of Terri’s family and supporters that this form of legalized execution was “one of the most painful experiences you can imagine." Unable to respond or to indicate awareness, Kate Adamson asserts, “I was just like Terri…but I was alive! I could hear every word. They were saying ‘shall we just not treat her?’...I suffered excruciating misery in silence.”

This personal testimony confirms what Terri supporters have long suspected—that the execution sought by her husband Michael Schiavo is anything but painless and humane. Furthermore, Kate’s remarkable recovery to nearly full mental and physical health—-she still suffers partial paralysis of her left side—-gives Terri supporters hope that Terri too may still experience a similar recovery, if granted proper care and treatment.

During her early-afternoon speech Kate declared that "If they want to kill Terri they should have the guts to put a gun to her head” rather than condemn her to such a slow and painful death. She finished off by summing up the full import of the Schiavo case, saying, “The measure of a society is how they treat the least of us. Life is sacred or meaningless, there is nothing in between."

Contact Kate Adamson by visiting http://www.katesjourney.com  

JJ
---------------------------------------------
(c) Copyright: LifeSiteNews.com is a production of Interim Publishing. Permission to republish is granted (with limitation*) but acknowledgement of source is *REQUIRED* (use LifeSiteNews.com).

SEA
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128 posted 03-27-2005 10:52 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

there is a special kind of hell waiting for that man (Michael Schiavo)...you know....the same kind as was for Hitler...and others of like kind...the true monsters of this world.

I just don't understand how someone could be that cruel.

I am still praying for Terri...
Denise
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129 posted 03-27-2005 12:02 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The seeming success of the pro-euthenasia  and anti-right-to-life for the disabled and sick among us, whom they consider 'defective', and detrimental to society, is in that they managed to frame this controversy over Terri Schiavo as a right-to-die issue. It's not.

If this were a case with clear and convincing evidence that Terri would have wanted to die in this fashion it wouldn't have even made the news at all. No matter someone's personal convictions on end of life issues for themselves, each person has the right to decide those issues for themselves.

Judge Greer issued his edict of death on her on hearsay evidence that would never have been accepted in a criminal case, would never have even been accepted in the obtainment of a search warrent.

He issued his edict of death on her despite the mounds of sworn testimony and sworn affidavits of countless witnesses bearing witness to her husband's conflict of interest and his statements regarding his lack of knowledge of Terri's wishes that contradict his court testimony. I think they call that perjury? He even slipped on Larry King on March 18th, saying..."we don't know what Terri's wishes were, these are our wishes." Additionally, he ignored stacks of evidence, that the sheriff's department and Attorney General's office also ignored by refusing to investigate of probable cause of spousal abuse, which should have been investigated and taken into consideration in determining his continuing suitability to continue being her guardian.

He issued his edict of death on her despite the sworn affidavits and sworn testimony of countless doctors and neurologists, who were not paid for their testimony or affidavits, who vehemently disagree with the paid expert hired by Geroge Felos.

He issued his edict of death on her despite not having a PET scan, nor MRI, to validate the diagnosis.

This is about a woman being sentenced to die, with no clear and convincing evidence of her wishes. That a judge has declared that hearsay is clear and convincing evidence doesn't make it so. If a thousand judges concurred it still wouldn't make it so.

This issue is about a gross miscarriage of justice that seems will result in an innocent woman's death at the behest of her husband-in-name-only, in collusion with a whacko death advocate lawyer who finds beauty in the death by starvation and dehydration process, signed on by the husband when it became clear that Terri would not soon die of natural causes, who was also insturmental in lobbying for, and passage of, the 2001 legislation that declared that feeding tubes are 'medical treatment' in Florida, and can thus be withheld, and who, along with his associates, drained Terri's trust fund that was supposed to go for her care and rehabilitation, in their attempt to murder her.

That is what this is about, and that is why people are so passionate about it. It is a true travesty of justice, a violation of the inalienable right to life guaranteed in the Constitution, with more than enough evidence of neglect abuse and collusion to convince the most skeptical person that something is rotten in Clearwater.

And I am truly grieved that those in power who could do something about it have apparently chosen not to. I have lost all respect for them.

This is a sad day for Terri, for the Schindler family, and for all decent people who honor and cherish life and truth and justice.

And this tragedy has been brought to us, in part, by the ACLU, who has been funding Michael Schiavo's lawyers' attempts to kill Terri after the lawyers exhausted her account.

  
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130 posted 03-27-2005 01:10 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
Too Bad Terri’s Not a Terrorist or a Condemned Murder 3/26/2005
By Jan LaRue, Chief Counsel

I’m fed up with liberal hypocrisy.

I’m a conservative Christian attorney who has practiced criminal and juvenile defense. I wholeheartedly advocate that no matter how heinous the crime, the accused must be afforded his or her constitutional rights. That includes appeals and writs of habeas corpus to obtain federal review after state court remedies have been exhausted. I support the rights of convicted criminals to have DNA testing that may prove their innocence, no matter how many courts have reviewed their cases.

Question: When it comes to Terri Schiavo, where are the usual liberal civil-rights advocates, the criminal defense bar, liberal law professors? A few are speaking out for Terri’s rights, but very few. And I applaud their consistency.

Everybody agrees that Terri’s wishes should be paramount, but why is a hearsay statement supposedly said 20 years ago credible? And why does anyone think that if she said it, she was talking about a feeding tube? Who considered food and water to be artificial life support back then?

What lawyer wouldn’t challenge probable cause for a search warrant based on the kind of stale and highly suspect hearsay that Judge Greer found to be clear and convincing evidence of Terri’s wishes, sufficient for him to order her death?

Where are those who file suit when some terrorist detainee in Guantanamo Bay didn’t get a cookie on his lunch tray or suffered the “torture” of having a guard dog growl at him? Where are those who file every motion, brief or appeal based on any and every argument they can think of in order to save the life of a serial murderer or a child-killer? Why aren’t they making arguments and filing briefs for Terri? They’ve either become mute or they’re in the media arguing against the kind of zealous advocacy on behalf of Terri that they regularly engage in.

And no surprise—where is the ACLU?—advocating for Terri’s death while they advocate for convicted murders who killed and sodomized a young boy in Massachusetts.

There’s constant harping about how many judges have reviewed Terri’s case. So what? None of them has reviewed the evidence to see if, as a matter of law, it’s sufficient to sustain the court’s orders. That’s what Congress ordered to be done in “Terri’s law.” But it wasn’t.

Suddenly it’s all about state rights and limiting review to state courts and federalism. And how dare Congress interfere by enacting a statute that gives Terri the same kind of federal review that Scott Peterson will have? The reason “Terri’s law” applies only to her is because the Senate Democrats refused to agree to unanimous consent to pass a bill unless it applied only to Terri. How convenient that they now blame Republicans who wanted a bill that would apply to anyone in Terri’s circumstances.

In Robles v. Coughlin, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit held that “the Eighth Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment does require that prisoners be served ‘nutritionally adequate food that is prepared and served under conditions which do not present an immediate danger to the health and well being of the inmates who consume it.’”

Too bad Terri isn’t confined in a prison instead of a hospice. That’s where her husband placed her after he won a large award in a malpractice case, where he promised to care for her.

In 1984, the New Hampshire Supreme Court upheld a trial court order that authorized a prison warden to feed and nourish a prison inmate over his objection, even though he was mentally competent and wanted to die by starvation. Here we have a judge ordering the removal of food and water to cause starvation. Even if we knew that's what Terri wants, Florida law makes aiding and abetting a suicide a felony, and there's no black-robed exemption.

Terri Schiavo isn’t dying from a disease, she isn’t on a ventilator, she doesn’t meet Florida’s definition of “persistent vegetative state,” and she committed no crime. She’s being killed by a judge on the flimsiest of evidence.

Some missing advocates need to step up to the Bar.


http://www.cwfa.org/articles/7786/LEGAL/life/index.htm
Denise
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131 posted 03-27-2005 01:13 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
Government's chief role: To protect life

Posted: March 26, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Ken Connor
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
Thomas Jefferson never knew Terri Schiavo. But his words resonate with relevance as we reflect on the roles that the state of Florida and the government of the United States have played in trying to protect her life. "The first duty of government is the protection of life, not its destruction," declared Mr. Jefferson. "The chief purpose of government is to protect life. Abandon that and you have abandoned all."

It was Jefferson who, in penning the words of the Declaration of Independence, declared that the right to life was "unalienable" because it was "endowed" to us by our Creator. Government's role, according to this revered founding father, was to "secure" the unalienable rights conferred by the Creator on his creatures.

In the hue and cry that has surrounded the controversy concerning Terri Schiavo's court-ordered death, many seem to have forgotten the role our Founding Fathers envisioned for government. There is a reason Mr. Jefferson and the founders attached such primacy to the right to life. The right to life is the "first" right. It is that right without which no other right can exist. The right to speak as one pleases, worship as one chooses or associate with those whom one prefers all depend upon the protection of the right to life. Without protecting the right to life, all other rights are meaningless. Even the "right to privacy," which has been at the center of the Schiavo litigation, means nothing to a corpse. The enjoyment of all of the rights that derive from the Creator and which are secured by our Constitution and laws depend, first and foremost, upon protection of our right to life.

Critics of government intrusion into the acrimonious battle between Terri Schiavo's husband and her family seem to have overlooked the fact that it was Michael Schiavo who first petitioned the Circuit Court of Pinellas County to authorize the starvation and dehydration death of his disabled wife. In doing so, Mr. Schiavo is the one who injected government into the controversy. Thereafter, in proceedings that accorded her substantially fewer due-process protections than afforded death-row inmates, the court not only "authorized" Terri's death, it "ordered" her death by starvation and dehydration.

The Legislature and the governor of the state of Florida acted in the finest tradition of government when they sought to intervene to prevent Mrs. Schiavo from suffering a slow, agonizing death that would have been deemed "cruel and unusual punishment" for serial killers like Ted Bundy. The United States Congress and the president, likewise, acted in the finest Jeffersonian tradition when they sought to provide relief for Terri Schiavo.

The 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "no state … shall … deprive any person of life … without due process of law." The amendment confers on Congress the explicit power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of the amendment. Thus, acting pursuant to its constitutional authority, Congress rightly sought to provide Terri Schiavo the same rights of review that are available to death-row inmates. After all, Mrs. Schiavo will be just as dead as Ted Bundy if the Florida court order is not set aside.

Contrary to the assertions of some, Congress' intervention did not offend principles of "states' rights" or "federalism." Neither states' rights nor federalism gives a license to the states to run roughshod over the rights of American citizens. Sadly, the states have a long and sad history of giving the short shrift to the constitutional rights of vulnerable or unpopular American citizens. It is precisely because of that history that the 14th Amendment was passed in the aftermath of the Civil War.

What is most surprising about the role of government in the Schiavo case is that the courts seemed to have cast a blind eye and a deaf ear to the need to protect the rights of a frail and vulnerable citizen.

Historically, courts have been a bastion for the protection of individual liberties. Traditionally, it is the courts that have been the great "equalizer" for the weak and the vulnerable and the poor and unpopular. In this case, however, and increasingly around the country, courts are becoming aiders and abettors of the strong in exploiting the weak, and accomplices of the rich in exploiting the poor.

As our country shifts away from a sanctity of life ethic and moves increasingly toward an ethos that calculates the net worth of individuals using cost-benefit ratios and quality of life calculus, who will protect us from exploitation and abuse when we become inconvenient or when we cost more to maintain than we produce? If not the government, who will stand in the gap?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43503
ESP
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132 posted 03-27-2005 02:06 PM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

On another forum I post in, a heavily British forum, to do with climbing rather than poetry, had a thread on this case. And an overwhelming majority spoke in favour of the judge's decision, along the lines of "a right to die in dignity" and "quality of life not worth living" etc. But they didn't seem to recognise that she wasn't completely vegitative or whatever the correct term is. It's very strange yet very human how people can have such very different views of a single case.
Is there any hope left for Terri now?

"Time has told me not to ask for more, one day our ocean will find its shore" ~Nick Drake

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133 posted 03-27-2005 03:02 PM       View Profile for TexUS   Email TexUS   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TexUS

ESP, I don't think killing an innocent person, or the support of that murder, is very human.
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134 posted 03-27-2005 03:15 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal



~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost,
the spirit rejoices over what it has left.
- Sufi epigram <))><

Email noles1@totcon.com

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135 posted 03-27-2005 07:14 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think most of the people who think this is really no big deal are judging Terri's wishes on the belief that they don't think they would want to continue to live if they were in a similar situation. Whenever I hear that, I point out that they really wouldn't know that for sure unless they were actually in that situation, and whether or not they actually would want to die, that doesn't mean that Terri would. And since we don't know what Terri really wants since we are not inside of her head, we should opt on the side of life.

I also believe that most people are not aware of all the judicial misconduct, and conflicts of interest, not only with Michael Schiavo, but also with the judges, lawyers, the hospice center, the Sheriff at the time, who is now a member of the House of Representatives, who was and is a friend of Michael's, as well as others in the legislature, who engineered this tragedy a long time ago.


http://www.theempirejournal.com/53209_schiavo_case_tangled_web_o.htm
sweetcollege_girl
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136 posted 03-27-2005 10:04 PM       View Profile for sweetcollege_girl   Email sweetcollege_girl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for sweetcollege_girl

ESP...I have to agree with Tex..There is no humanity in this...and there is no dignity either...
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137 posted 03-28-2005 03:49 AM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

I don't think there is humanity or dignity either. To me, Terri should be kept alive. This opinion is based on all I have read surrounding the case, which is based on links and comments on this thread and bits that have cropped up in newspapers that I have come across. I was just pointing out that people have a diverse range of opinions on the matter, and all on a single case, and how difficult it is sometimes to understand an opinion that doesn't match your own.

"Time has told me not to ask for more, one day our ocean will find its shore" ~Nick Drake

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138 posted 03-28-2005 09:08 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Dignity?

What right do you have to talk about dignity?

If the family wants to play with a zombie, no pain is involved. Don't pretend anything more or anything less.
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139 posted 03-28-2005 10:14 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brad

But for five years of extremely hard work and high expectations, I might have become a parent of a "zombie" - cut off from the social world with little hope for an adult life outside an institution.

I think it's good that we're struggling with hard questions that often have no hard answers - What is human dignity?  When does a life become not worth living?  How much do we invest in a life that has a fragile or highly uncertain future?

I have great admiration for the tenacity of Terri Schiavo's parents.  They have done an outstanding job of advocacy - even to the extent of getting the U.S. Congress to intervene.  Who knows - maybe Terri Schiavo was in an persistent vegetative state without hope for recovery.  But that's just the point - who knows?

When we make life and death decisions involving others, we need to be damn sure we're making the right decision.  Terri is either a zombie as you put it, or a mind (even a severely limited mind) living inside an unresponsive body.  Until we know for certain which is the case, caution should compel us to err on the side of life.

Jim
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140 posted 03-28-2005 10:39 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

Brad....that was really a nasty thing to say. Just really uncalled for. Obviously you have read nothing regarding this case and made a comment based on nothing. Play with a zombie? You must not have children, or a heart for that matter. That was seriously disgusting...

Jim, what you said was wonderful... thanks for that.
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141 posted 03-28-2005 10:58 AM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Brad~
quote:
Dignity?

What right do you have to talk about dignity?

If the family wants to play with a zombie, no pain is involved. Don't pretend anything more or anything less.
I'm not absolutely certain that I've understood your position with your statement above~
Would you clarify your comment before I make what could be an incorrect decision on your position ?
Thanks~
~*Marge*~
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142 posted 03-28-2005 01:10 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Ah Friends~
http://www.zimp.org/stuff/

Go ahead ... lose your lunch ... goodness knows I lost mine~

This deprivation of a United States citizens basic civil rights to protection under the laws of our country is appalling !!!

My God ... what have we become ?

'Let the woman die with dignity' I've heard some say .... Oh ... yeah ... Nazi camp tactics of starvation and dehydration are dignity served on a silver platter~

And, isn't it interesting that they've had not only Michael Schiavo and his mouthpiece, but so many others say that death by dehydration is painless ... dang ... I can't help but wonder why they are wasting that MORPHINE drip on Terri !!!

May the Lord in all His Mercy be with Terri in her hours of great need~


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143 posted 03-28-2005 05:50 PM       View Profile for sweetcollege_girl   Email sweetcollege_girl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for sweetcollege_girl

i agree marge...praying for terri and her family
Brad
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144 posted 03-28-2005 06:42 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
I think it's good that we're struggling with hard questions that often have no hard answers - What is human dignity?  When does a life become not worth living?  How much do we invest in a life that has a fragile or highly uncertain future?


I do too. I don't see that happening here.

quote:
I have great admiration for the tenacity of Terri Schiavo's parents.  They have done an outstanding job of advocacy - even to the extent of getting the U.S. Congress to intervene.  Who knows - maybe Terri Schiavo was in an persistent vegetative state without hope for recovery.  But that's just the point - who knows?


The cerebral cortex has been dead for fifteen years.

quote:
When we make life and death decisions involving others, we need to be damn sure we're making the right decision.


Indeed.


quote:
Terri is either a zombie as you put it, or a mind (even a severely limited mind) living inside an unresponsive body.


The body does respond, it responds to stimuli on the outside.

quote:
Until we know for certain which is the case, caution should compel us to err on the side of life.


Not arguing that. Simply pointing out that you can't talk about diginity with someone who can't talk.


If 'who knows' is the correct assumption (I don't think it is.), don't assume that means your assumption is correct.

Essentially, this debate is an argument over two religious viewpoints.

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145 posted 03-28-2005 07:27 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

I don't think that's entirely fair. I've talked to many non-Christians who think that what is happening is terrible. I have also talked to Christians who think that what is happening is right...

Love's a lovely lad
His bringing up is beauty
Who loves him not is mad
For I must pay him duty
-Anonymous

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146 posted 03-28-2005 08:30 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Marge,

Thanks for the link. It's good to have so much of it all in one easy place.


Brad,

The condition of the cerebral cortex is unknown and will remain unknown until the tests that could tell us the answer to that question are done. They have been forbidden by Michael Schiavo and Judge Greer. Why? Because they can.

They may not like the answers that the necessary diagnostic tests would reveal. Then they couldn't legally kill her if it were determined that she were not in a PVS, as upwards of 33 physicians have submitted sworn statements either she is not or that she most likely is not.

Michael Schiavo also obtained a court order from his good buddy Greer to immediately cremate her with no autopsy. So we won't know after she dies  what the condition of her cerebral cortex was either.

A neat and tidy arrangement.

This is one topic that isn't respective of religious or non-religious worldview. I think it speaks to a basic sense of justice, as this case cries out for, in light of all the troubling and suspicious goings-on. You don't have to look very hard to find them.
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147 posted 03-28-2005 09:16 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

http://slate.com/id/2115123/

It has become a circus.
Denise
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148 posted 03-28-2005 09:33 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

If I were in Florida, Brad, you better believe that I would be one of those people symbolically carrying bread and water across the cordoned off area of the lawn of the hospice. No one even gets near any of the doors, so it can only be symbolic. I applaud them for making a principled stand even if it can only be symbolic.

And I would hope that if I ever found myself in Terri's situation, there would be principled people taking a stand to fight for my life against such blatant injustice, even if it could only be symbolic.
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149 posted 03-28-2005 09:51 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
  In Nazi Germany, the death camps started for the disabled and mentally retarded. It's clear that in America we've begun calculating the quality of life rather than observing the sanctity of life. While Terri's life has raised a national debate, it's hardly the first time we have allowed the innocent to die because of court rulings that had little to do with the law or the will of the people.

Think Roe v. Wade.

As I write these words, Terri Schiavo is still suffering – still clinging to life. But I take some comfort in believing, in this Resurrection season, she will soon be in Paradise. The rest of us, however, will be left behind here to think about what could have been and what should be.

What lessons will we learn?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43516


 
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