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Dean and the DNC

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Mistletoe Angel
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0 posted 02-11-2005 09:46 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

As Howard Dean prepares to take over leadership of the Democratic Party with his election-in tomorrow, there are many questions regarding what Dean will mean for the Democrats.

Howard Dean, the governor of Vermont, suffered an upset in the Democraic primary early last year when he finished third in Iowa, where he made his infamous "scream speech" which may very well had a resonating effect that jaded his shot at a presidential nomination.

Now, he has made a significant comeback in rising to become the new Democratic Party chairman.

According to a new CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, the following was revealed in interviews conducted by telephone January 27-February 8, 2005, with 223 of the 447 members of the Democratic National Committee.

* When asked about the Democratic Party's approach to winning major elections, 56% believed major changes must be made, 34% believed minor changes should be made, 8% called for a complete overhaul, and 2% were undecided.

* When asked if the Democrat Party should become more liberal or moderate, 52% believed the party should become more moderate, 23% believed the party should become more liberal, with the remaining 25% not sure.

* When asked about the key to future victories, 61% believed it is attracting swing voters, with 30% believing in mobilizing the base and 9% not sure.

* 63% see Dean doing an "excellent" job as chairman, with 27% believing he'll do a "good" job, 5% a fair job, 1% poor, 1% terrible, and 3% not sure.

* When asked what factor was most to blame for losing the 2004 election, 49% believed it was because they were up against a wartime incumbent, 20% believed it was the inability to match the Republicans' grassroot efforts, 16% believed John Kerry was a weak candidate, 7% believed it was their positions on some key issues, and 8% were not sure.

***********************************************

Howard Dean is being most praised among Democrats currently for his excellent grassroot mobilization skills (he raised a record $41 million in one year) and his colorful camera-friendly personality that can appeal to young voters.

However, Dean is often criticized for using his tongue too much, and needs greater discipline with his role and speaking. (a.k.a the scream speech)

Dean is also argued for being too liberal, though he's often considered more centrist among others.

Is Dean one step forward or one step backward for the Democrats?

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Mistletoe Angel
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1 posted 02-11-2005 10:05 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Personally, I feel this is a plus for the Democratic party, and I can understand how others may doubt that right now.

In my experience, I've known many, including a few Passions poets here, who said they were tempted not to vote to re-elect Bush in 2004, but decided to vote Bush either because they saw Kerry as a bad candidate or because they saw the Democrats as just a clone of the Republicans without discussing values as loudly, or hadn't offered a viable alternative.

I've known a considerable number of individuals via Indymedia who refused to vote because they wanted to elect Bush out of office because of the war mostly, but refused to vote because Kerry was seen as pro-war to them as well, and basically Bush's brother on a number of other issues as well.

I think it's definitely a plus that Dean believes work needs to be done to distinguish the party from that of the GOP, and show there is an alternative, there are options. Dean is a man who voted against the war in Iraq from the beginning, and never backed down from his position, which "meaning what you say" or "knowing where you stand" is one plus given to Bush a lot.

There are a few things Dean certainly has to take seriously, however.

One is Tim Roemer's warning. The reminder that Democrats lost the South, the Midwest and 97 of 100 of the nation's fastest-growing counties. The 2004 election was not about letting 60,000 Ohio votes slip away, but rather about a failure to solidly connect with voters in all but 15 blue states on the East and West coasts.

He must allow Roemer's message to resonate within the DNC, as he is a strong centrist who has served on the 9/11 Commission and the need for Democrats to run a "bigger bus," attracting back Catholics, Hispanics and women that they lost grip of in 2004. That sort of dialogue is just what many in the center desire hearing and Roemer should be judged not by his unique stance on abortion among the party but by his credentials, which are impressive, including six House of Representatives terms.

But in doing that, the party must also remain aesthetically diverse and contrast from that of the GOP.

One thing I'm praying Dean can do is adopt some progressive values such as those Ten Values held dear by the Green Party and let these values earn mainstream recognition. The values must be spoken out as that was ranked the #1 important issue of the 2004 election among Bush voters.

There's much work that needs to be done, and it won't be easy, but I definitely believe Dean is a plus overall for the Democrats and his ability to mobilize grassroots campaigns especially is just what can restore this party's image.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Mistletoe Angel
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2 posted 04-22-2005 03:59 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Could the GOP be right about Dean and the future of the Democratic Party?

From Democracy Now!

Howard Dean Supports Bush on Iraq

The chair of the Democratic National Committee Howard Dean has come out in support of President Bush"s current Iraq policy. In a speech earlier this week in Minnesota, Dean said, "The president has created an enormous security problem for the United States where none existed before. But I hope the president is incredibly successful with his policy now that he's there." Dean said a US pullout could endanger the United States in three ways: By leaving a Shiite theocracy worse than that in Iran; by creating an independent Kurdistan in the north, with destabilizing effects on neighboring Kurdish regions of Turkey, Iran and Syria, and by making the so-called Sunni Triangle a magnet for what Dean called Islamic terrorists similar to the former Taliban-ruled Afghanistan. Dean was portrayed as an antiwar candidate in the media during the 2004 presidential race."


*

*

Are these Dean's true colors? Is Dean a closet hawk?

I have to say after this, I've developed a no-confidence attitude toward Dean here.

The GOP may be right after all. They said with him the Democratic Party would be flushed further down the pipeline. Assuming Dean was the courageous anti-war voice I thought he was, I staunchly disagreed, but now with this, I feel they just may have it right...though maybe not in the way they necessarily meant, sadly, with the way Dean seems to be playing the same old card other Democrats, like Hilary Clinton, have been playing.

Throughout the Democratic primary, not to mention throughout much of the 2004 campaign, Dean boasted on and on about how he was one of the minority Democrats to vote against going to war, and challenged his opponents like Kerry, Edwards, and Lieberman for authorizing the war.

Now, all a sudden, he comes out and says though he believes Bush has made a huge costly mistake on national security, he is basically signing his permission slip to continue to go about his business.

THAT'S why I'm NOT a Democrat.

That is NOT anti-war behavior. If you're truly anti-war, you're not going to let your anti-war guard down at any point in the game.

I'm telling you, and as a liberal, that the Democrats are just going to keep losing election after election until they recognize two things.

One, that they understand why millions even bother to embrace their party every four years in the first place.

The fact is, Iraq was a more serious issue among Democrats than it was among Republicans. In exit poll results, 73% of the overall 15% who thought Iraq was the most serious issue to them were Kerry voters, which Kerry voters almost unanimously disapproved of the war.

THAT'S why many Democratic voters even bothered to go out to the polls November 2nd, for they believed the Democrats would sharpen up to become the oppositional party voice of this country on issues like that.

Secondly, the other thing Democrats must realize is that the GOP have wandered far away from their roots, and, learning that lesson, try to cover up some ground they've retreated from, on values like veteran care, state rights, small government, the minimum wage, issues which the GOP have turned their back on as of late.

And there continue to be pockets of dissent within the party, like on the cloture bill, where some Democrats even joined the GOP on making it harder for families to file for bankruptcy. And they don't even bother talking about the GOP backing away from state rights and such.

I really am not confident in Dean now after this.

I believe I was right about one thing in particular, however. That Dean has excellent grassroots mobilization skills.

The only problem is, he's using them to rally in the wrong idea.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Alicat
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3 posted 04-22-2005 05:40 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

And then there's Dean portaying Rush Limbaugh as a cocaine addict during his speech to the ACLU.  Head of the DNC with the ACLU.  Surprised?  I'm not.  And I do consider what he did to be slander and something he should be above doing.  He's the head of the DNC afterall and should be setting a higher standard for others to follow, not playing to guttersnipes with such escapades.

The DNC cozying up to the ACLU does worry me though, since they are a PAC as well as rabid liberal lawyers hell bent on destroying rights for the many so that the few can get their way.  For some daft reason, they truly believe our country is a Democracy (few outweigh the many), not a Republic (many outweigh the few).
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4 posted 04-22-2005 05:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Dean said, "The president has created an enormous security problem for the United States where none existed before.

Quite an amazing statement there. If there had been no security problem before, how did 9/11 happen? How did the nine major terrorist attacks between 1990 and 2001 occur? A man would have to be an idiot to make this statement. The security problem was ALWAYS there. We simply chose to ignore it until it came to an action that could not be ignored. On the other hand, the point that turns you off, Noah, is the one point that makes me respect him. He is intelligent enough to accept that we ARE, right or wrong, in Iraq and must act accordingly and responsibly, not just tell the Iraqi people "see ya later. Deal with it." At least he can understand that and I don't understand how anyone could object to those thoughts.

When asked what factor was most to blame for losing the 2004 election, 49% believed it was because they were up against a wartime incumbent

As a conservative, these words are music to my ears. The Democrat inability to understand the American people and point at all the wrong reasons why they keep losing will insure that the Republicans remain in power for some time to come.

Mistletoe Angel
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5 posted 04-22-2005 07:39 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

If Dean continues to move in this direction, you're absolutely right, Balladeer.

There's some Republicans out there who believe the real way in renovating the Democratic Party is to elect someone like Zell Miller for the Democratic presidential election.

I actually consider that the LAST thing the Democratic Party should be thinking about, and that would be an even greater mistake for the party.

Some conservatives accuse the Democratic Party of simply having no ideas at all, nothing positive to offer the country. I don't fully agree with that, as I find the GOP too is dry of solutions rather than privatization and incorporation, but I do believe they're not acculturating as much as they should. In fact, they're being more like the GOP in enculturating rather than acculturating. The problem is, conservative values center around faith and traditional dogmas, and the Democrats aren't really seizing that ground either.

I believe one solution here for the Democratic Party is that they should begin breaking from the corporate party paradigm and acculturate with the interests of the Greens, unions, etc. These are groups who often fantasize of the Democratic Party they'd like to see, so they should go out there and relate to them. Simple as that.

Most average Americans relate more to the Democratic Party on most domestic issues still. 4 in 5 Americans would like to see not only a minimum wage increase, but a living wage, and almost exactly the same percentage agree it should be happening now too. Most Americans believe our government is simply too soft on corporate crime, which I consider one of the worst crimes of all because it can affect massive numbers of people. Most Americans believe one way or another we must immediately break away from our obsessive dependence on fossil fuels and seek alternative energy ideas.

Things like that. I believe the Democratic party is incredibly myopic when they just can't seem to get that through the donkey's head. There really shouldn't be anything hard about picking up on that by now, or four years ago. Clinton took that for granted often.

I also still criticize Dean, by the way, for struggling to discipline his tongue. Saying things like "I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for!" are certainly not going to win over any fence voters, and even shy me away from contact with him. Besides that, that statement obviously isn't true if he's supporting Bush in Iraq, the single greatest polarizing issue in the nation right now.

The bottom line is, both major parties have walked far from their roots. Do they even notice it?

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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6 posted 04-22-2005 08:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

They notice it, Noah. Sometimes I think they are just hoping that WE don't...
Mistletoe Angel
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7 posted 04-22-2005 09:23 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

You see, sometimes I find it's a little of both. That suddenly, largely due to the washed out officialdom media in particular, many of us can't even identify the traditional roots of these two parties, but somehow not even those in the parties themselves are aware or suddenly have gotten caught up in this climate and have forgotten.

I keep in touch often with my grandparents, who have voted Democrat since 1992 (they voted for Reagen and Bush Sr. the first time) and consider themselves conservatives generally, but feel distanced from the GOP because of what I said, straying from their roots. They feel they're spending like crazy and have been dangerously aggressive with federal policy rather than state policy.

I don't know what it is, but our two-party system is in desperate need of reform or one side is always going to abuse their power and the people who relate more to the other side will be shut out time and time again in this cultural tug-of-war.

I'm just startled we didn't get to the heart of this matter decades ago already.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Brad
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8 posted 04-23-2005 04:05 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Quite an amazing statement there. If there had been no security problem before, how did 9/11 happen? How did the nine major terrorist attacks between 1990 and 2001 occur? A man would have to be an idiot to make this statement. The security problem was ALWAYS there. We simply chose to ignore it until it came to an action that could not be ignored. On the other hand, the point that turns you off, Noah, is the one point that makes me respect him.


Sorry, Mike, but you've seriously misread that quote. Take a look at it again.  
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9 posted 04-23-2005 05:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The president has created an enormous security problem for the United States where none existed before

Read it again..still reads the same to me.
Brad
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10 posted 04-25-2005 08:39 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, then, you need to go back to English class. Definite an indefinite articles are difficult for non-native speakers, but they shouldn't be for natives.

What's your first language?
Not A Poet
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11 posted 04-26-2005 12:10 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Although not an article, "NONE" looks pretty definite.
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12 posted 04-26-2005 07:36 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Definite an indefinite articles

English, Brad. What's yours?
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13 posted 04-26-2005 12:38 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Not my fault.

Article refers to the usage of 'a' or
'an'  (the distinction is called euphonic) as opposed to 'the'. I sweat over such questions when I write a poem ( Gee, Brad, maybe that's why you haven't written anything in a while.)

The distinction is simple. Did he speak as an idiot or was he trying to use the language as it is.

Grammatically, either you or he is an idiot.
He didn't make the mistake you think he made.

If you say 'sorry' I'll end this right here.
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14 posted 04-26-2005 01:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! Well, far be it from me to profess not to be an idiot, especially if misreading a quote automatically puts one in that catagory, but I have to confess that I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, in all sincerity. The quote that I highlighted from Dean appears to be straitforward to me and I havent understood any of your cryptic remarks so far. Yes, English is my language but only when it's PLAIN English. If you would care to try using that, perhaps I'll have a better chance at understanding whatever point you are trying to make. I'll take the hayseed out of my mouth and sit quietly at attention so I don't miss anything...promise.

Otherwise, you can continue imitating your hero who came out with the famous line that will live forever in judicial circles - "That all depends what "is" is.)
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15 posted 04-26-2005 05:30 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Geesh, guys. Why don't you just make up you own quotations and be done with it. It would be a lot easier, I should think, than twisting this one to fit your own agendas?

In my opinion, Brad, definite versus indefinite has very little to do with the meaning of the sentence. If anything, we're talking about specific versus generic articles, which can be applied to both the definite (the) and indefinite (a, an). All three articles can be used to indicate that a noun references a whole class, in which case the usage is called generic (from the Latin word meaning class). The difference between the indefinite a and an and the generic a and an is that the former means any one member of a class, while the latter means all the members of a class.

"A Mercedes is in my parking space." This typifies the use of an indefinite article that applies to a specific noun.

"A Mercedes is nothing but a status symbol." In this case, the same indefinite article references the whole class, not a specific member of the class, and is therefore a generic article.

So, did Dean mean a specific security problem or a generic one? More importantly, Brad, does it really matter whether the President created THIS enormous security problem or just any old enormous security problem? Definite, indefinite, specific or generic, how you want to read the usage of the article in question changes the meaning very little.

On the other hand, Michael, do you really think that "where none existed before" means Dean believes the U.S. has never had a security problem? By taking the phrase literally, you're essentially taking it out of the context of reality. Dean may well have worded it better, but any reasonable individual not out to ridicule will know he clearly meant "where none existed here before."

As is pretty typical of politicians, Dean really didn't say anything meaningful at all. Every President in history has created new security problems, if for no other reason than keeping them physically safe is a security problem that didn't exist until they were elected. The implication might be that generic security problems should never be created, in which case Dean is clearly the idiot in question, or the implication might be that a specific security problem should never have been created, in which case Dean is just being characteristically vague.

A politician with nothing to say doesn't surprise me in the least. What does continue to surprise me, and I'm not even sure why any more, is that reasonably intelligent men get frustrated when they can't prove the unprovable and instead resort to insulting each other.
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16 posted 04-26-2005 07:13 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

quote:
By taking the phrase literally, you're essentially taking it out of the context of reality.

Well said Ron. But isn't it fair to say that Dean is generally "out of the context of reality?"

Actually, you are right, of course, about politicians and their statements, in general.

Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

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17 posted 04-26-2005 09:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

By taking the phrase literally, you're essentially taking it out of the context of reality.

Yep, I have a bad habit of doing that, I guess.  Taking things literally is unfair to the speaker, I suppose. We should try to take the time to figure out what they mean instead of what they say...alrighty then.

As far as the insults, here I thought I did pretty well. After being questioned about what my native language was (in a way that was meant to be antagonistic) and presented with the possibility that I had at least a 50% chance of being an idiot, I figured I showed some restraint there - guess not enough.

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18 posted 04-26-2005 09:41 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Hey, it is not that easy being a politician and it is definately not that easy to say something that sounds meaningful when you have nothing to say.  Just look at some of the things I've said.

The key is to say nothing but make people believe you are saying something, and if you are really good, saying nothing that will appear to have different meanings to different folks who all believe you are supporting their position.

Dean isn't that good in that he certainly can confuse, but it his hard to misinterpret his true feelings.  Clinton (and this is a positive politically and not meant as a negative) can say something that really means nothing and have some think he is a liberal and some a moderate.  That is why he so good as a politician.  Bush doesn't get the hang of it and says what he truly thinks and not so artfully.

I haven't really said anything in this thread, so I guess I am a confirmed politician.
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19 posted 04-26-2005 10:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Either that or you should have been on Seinfeld, Tim!

Nicely not said....
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20 posted 04-26-2005 11:41 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Actually Tim, here's some political advice for you from your buddy Newt Gingrich;
quote:
MR. GINGRICH:  But Ronald Reagan understood an enormous principle--and again I may shock some of you--because he had been an FDR Democrat.  He had studied under the great master of 20th century politics.  He understood what really works.  And that was a very simple rule which makes some conservatives very uncomfortable, find an 80 percent issue, stand next to it and smile.
[Laughter.]

MR. GINGRICH:  Your opponents has two choices.  They can stand next to you, but you're closer to the issue, or they can stand next to the minority position and frown.  The average American doesn't spend an enormous amount of time on politics, so they look up briefly, and they say, "You're standing next to an 80 percent issue smiling," and go, "That's really nice."  And they see your opponent standing next to a 10 percent issue and frowning, and they go, "That's really dumb."  And that's all you need.  You just want nice and dumb.  It will do.



http://www.newt.org/index.php?src=news&submenu=speeches&prid=991&category=Speech%20Transcripts

Which is an attitude nearly as condescending as Dean's.

[edited to replace actual quote and source]
Tim
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21 posted 04-27-2005 12:03 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

another tactic equally effective and unfortunately the norm by both the left and right is to associate your opponent with a "recognized evil" and therefore, no matter the position, you are cooked cabbage.

For instance, why would you refer to Gingerich as my buddy other than to somehow insinuate a negative that has no benefit other than at an emotional level?

In simplest terms, in poli sci 101 you wrap yourself in the American flag, mother and apple pie.  Not hardly a Gingerich novel idea.  Clinton did have a very effective and now accepted variation, triangulization in which you attach yourself to an idea that no one can attack and let the two parties fight it out while you are above the fray on the side of mother, apple pie and the flag.

Clinton can be a darling of the left and say he is a moderate because he is not involved in the fray and can take credit on both sides.

Gingerich wasn't quite as effective and perhaps should have followed his advice and paid more attention in 101.

If truth be known, while I don't agree with all of his policies, the politician I respect most is Lieberman because he is a man of principle notwithstanding his policies.  

Local Rebel
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22 posted 04-27-2005 12:04 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

How do you spell condesenSHUN?

quote:

Howard Dean has just gotten through talking to a roomful of diehard Tennessee Democrats at an early-morning breakfast fund-raiser, explaining what his strategy, as new Democratic National Committee chairman, is for dealing with the South.

"Show up!" he tells them. "It is disrespectful not to show up." Above all, he and they should take on the "values debate" with the Republicans and address the "faith-based" voter. "We've got to talk to people on our own terms, and we've got to honor them and respect them.

"I do not think the Democratic Party will ever again succeed if we write off any section of the country," the former governor of Vermont says. "We cannot do that, and we will not do that."



Which is not bad for a start -- but then he winds up with;

quote:

Morals issues: We have to acknowledge people's fears. It's not just about gay rights and abortion. It's fear of what happens to their families. What they need is a signal from the Democratic Party that we're going to make it easier for them to raise their kids. The mistake is to think we're going to talk people out of their fears. These are not logical fears. Most kids will turn out fine, even in this era of bad stuff on television and things like that. You cannot sit down and logically explain to people why they have their fears.


http://www.memphisflyer.com/content.asp?ID=7120&ArticleID=2

Local Rebel
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23 posted 04-27-2005 12:09 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I refer to Gingrich as your buddy Tim because he's on your team... at least policy wise.

Personally -- I'd rather vote for people I respectfully disagree with than people I despise and agree with.  And, no points off Ron or Brad for ending a sentence a preposition with.
Balladeer
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since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


24 posted 04-27-2005 12:25 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...and be careful not to dangle your participle around here, Reb
 
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