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Dean and the DNC

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Tim
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25 posted 04-27-2005 12:27 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

another lesson in poli sci 101, public image is very important also as people will not vote for what is right, but rather who they like.

agree with Gingerich on some things and disagree on some others, I agreed with Clinton on some issues and disagreed with some others.  I can't say I am impressed with either as a person although both were and are good politicians in a political sense.  

Don't really consider myself on either one of their teams, but what the hey, if you want to think I am a Gingerich Republican that is your perogative.  I am fairly certain in my own mind I fall in the moderate Republican range and that most people who know me personally would concur.

As far as Dean, the chair of the party is supposed to be the attack dog, Dean fits that role very well.  I do not think he fully comprehends the views of the "silent majority", but then again, I think that is a failing of the left that only the Clintons are apparently able to discern.
Local Rebel
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26 posted 04-27-2005 12:54 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

another lesson in poli sci 101, public image is very important also as people will not vote for what is right, but rather who they like.



And that's the very condescension that Gingrich and Dean exhibit here -- excepting that Gingrich only says "we don't need to explain it to them" and Dean says "we CAN'T explain it to them."

In reality there are (basically) two kinds of voters, ideologues and swingers.  The mind of the swinger isn't set on who they 'like' but is rather a matter of who they find they respect more -- regardless of position.

If we can put a good leader in office (and I would argue that the best leaders are the least ideological) then he or she is going to more than likely act in the best interest of the electorate (and align themselves with interest groups that are willing to come to that table).  That's why Congressional leaders are so rarely good executive material -- because caucases usually gravitate toward extremes in picking leaders.

It's really Reid's job to be attack dog -- not Dean's -- Dean needs to be the guy raising money and picking candidates to back.

If you have an R behind your name Tim -- you are an R.  I haven't noticed you exhibit any non-partisan positions.

Deere -- I fully plan to keep my participle undangled... !
Tim
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27 posted 04-27-2005 01:38 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

  
The chair's job is certainly to raise money and recruit candidates.  You do that by appealing to the base and you appeal to the base by being the attack dog.  Clearly the role of the chair who doesn't have to be concerned with upsetting the opposition.
That is why Dean is pretty well suited for where he is at.  Mistletoe's complaint appears to be primarily that Dean is not a pacifist.  

The job of Reid is not to be an attack dog.  The Republicans would love to have him perceived as such.  The job of Reid is to keep his Senators in line and get legislation passed.  You need to have the respect of the other side to be a good leader in a legislative body.

People don't generally respect people they don't like.  I do not disagree a lot of people vote for people they like and therefore respect notwithstanding the candidates' positions.  But then you can't come back and complain about politicians who recognize to get elected you have to get people to like you.  

I have said that before in another thread, people do the voting and get the type of politician they demand.  A principled statesman has little chance of being elected in the present political climate for the very reasoning you give of the "swing voter."

Finally, only non-Republicans can be fair and independent minded?  All Republicans must be linked to Gingerich and all Democrats must be linked to Michael Moore and Al Sharpton?  

Local Rebel
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28 posted 04-27-2005 08:57 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

The job of Reid is not to be an attack dog.



This is a point on which (I hope) reasonable people may simply disagree -- but if you don't think Frist and Delay are attack dogs then -- you're truly partisaned Tim.  Recent memory of mild mannered Tom (Daschle) and the resultant translocation of attack dog function to surrogates like James Carville or Terry McAuliffe have certainly blurred the lines -- but in days of yore -- probably 95% of the electorate couldn't have even told you who the party chair was -- like back in the 70's -- does anybody even remember Bill Brock?  Chair of RNC from 1977 to 1981?  Or better still, without looking it up -- who is the chair of the RNC TODAY?

Reid should be the defacto 'Leader' of the Democrats -- but he isn't really suited for the traditional role -- especially with higher profile Rock Stars like Dean, Clinton (Senator),  Kennedy, Biden and the like who are all too ready to jump in front of a camera.

The shout-show and 24-hour news cycle have also served to dilute the spokesperson function of Senate party-leader now too -- but that's another topic which wouldn't be a bad one to get into.

quote:

I have said that before in another thread, people do the voting and get the type of politician they demand. A principled statesman has little chance of being elected in the present political climate for the very reasoning you give of the "swing voter."



Wrong answer.  

Let's take these two statements and look at what's going on -- you said them both;

quote:

If truth be known, while I don't agree with all of his policies, the politician I respect most is Lieberman because he is a man of principle notwithstanding his policies.

another lesson in poli sci 101, public image is very important also as people will not vote for what is right, but rather who they like.



You're left with the dilemma Tim of voting for someone who is 'right' and you don't trust/respect -- or voting for someone whom you do respect and trust but who isn't promoting the ideas you think are 'right'.

If you don't trust or respect someone -- even if they are saying the 'right' things -- how can you be sure to get what you think you're voting for?

The problem comes for anyone to be fair and independent minded when they think they are voting for 'right' ideas -- the question becomes -- is it just a matter of political DNA for someone to be a Republican or a Democrat?

Had you been paying attention you'd know that my respect and criticism cuts both ways.. for instance -- here http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/000998.html I explicitly say

quote:

Is John McCain the only sane man left in politics?



Last time I looked he was an R (that still associates him with Newt Gingrich).

And as long as he wears a Lakers uniform -- all the Lakers are associated with Shaq.  Ringo, Paul, George, and John -- associated.
Tim
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29 posted 04-27-2005 11:25 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

we will have to respectfully disagree as we have differing views on how the political system operates.

besides having different understandings of the workings of the system, our cynicisms come from different perspectives as I view your position not that unlike those you criticize of Dean and Gingerich.  You wrap yourself in integrity and then say I am on the side of rightousness and goodness.

I have little doubt if you took a poll from across the political spectrum you would get the same response as yours from both extremes of the spectrum and would suspect Mistletoe and Denise would both indicate they vote for integrity and the candidate and not the party.

I also have little doubt that a majority of folks if polled would indicate the same.  If we are all voting for the right reason, then how come we don't have politicians we can all look up to and respect.  Where are the Hubert Humphreys, McGoverns, Goldwaters, et al.?  Why wasn't Carter a great president?  It would be hard to say he wasn't a man of intregrity.

Also, we can respectfully disagree on the role of party leader in the Senate which is not the same thing as the leader of the party or the party chair.  Guess we just have different backgrounds.

Bottom line, if I am going to decide if someone is right, I look at the facts and not ultimately whether I like or respect the person. Intergrity is a factor, but not the deciding factor. I wouldn't necessarily invite the person over for lunch, but then again there are plenty of people I like and respect I wouldn't want making decisions that effect my life.
Local Rebel
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30 posted 04-28-2005 10:51 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Sorry for the delay I was out buying halo polish -- they're having a sale at Big Lots -- you should check it out.

Well, this is absolutely the first time, I mean, I've been called names before -- but, never, never, has anyone ever accused me of having integrity.  How dare you?

I demand satisfaction.  

En gaurde Sir. [Kit, I need a couple of smileys smacking one another with gloves and fencing with foils to insert here]

Or were you accusing me of feigning integrity?  

As insults go on the whole this was slightly better than the usual 'you have no core values'.

Either way -- my attitude is entirely the OPPOSITE of Dean and Gingrich as evidenced by my continued participation in these forums directing people to objective information whenever I can.  I've yet to figure out exactly what's in it for me -- but for some reason I keep doing it with no discernible personal gain.  Bottom line -- I don't think it isn't important for the electorate to be informed nor do I think it incapable of understanding the issues.  Although I will admit to feeling it's difficult to get the public interested in understanding the issues -- that, is my, and their (Gingrich and Dean), common failing -- of being able to find a way to interest the public in the complexities of the issues (but I don't make fun of people for saying Nuance-- the issues aren't simple and are extremely reticulate).

And certainly if you ask the average Jane she'll tell you she thinks the government is screwed up -- but if you ask her about her own Representative or Senators -- she'll most times say they aren't the problem.  But if said Jane merely pulls the levers on one side of a ballot from top to bottom we obviously get what we have.

There are Navy Seals I know that I wouldn't want to have over to the house for dinner but I trust them to break things and kill people as may be required from time to time.  Why you would VOTE for someone, that's making decisions that will effect everyone, you wouldn't invite to dinner is beyond imagination though.  

I absolutely do have a different understanding of American party politics -- I understand the tradition that if a party has the White House -- the President is the party leader.  If not -- the party leader, be it minority or majority, in the Senate is THE party leader.  Totally different job from being chair.
Local Rebel
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31 posted 04-28-2005 11:12 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

[chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp]

Nothing quite like wonk talk to clear a room.
Denise
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32 posted 04-30-2005 09:48 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I am more and more beginning to view it all, the political parties, the candidates, the platforms, the causes, the movements, as nothing more than a diversion for the masses to involve themselves in, to keep their minds occupied and to make them feel as if they in some way have a voice in being governed, while the 'governors', the powerful and wealthy, do as they please to do, and occassionally throw a bone to the dogs to keep their allegiance through the pretense of self-government.

The day that a non-wealthy, non-connected person, from amongst the pack, runs for office, and wins, is when we will be self-governing. Until then our strings are just being pulled, in one direction or the other, by the puppet masters.

It doesn't really matter what you are, left, right, centrist, whatever. You just play the game and dance to the current tune that is being played. Until you get too tired to play or dance anymore, and you cut the strings.



Ron
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33 posted 04-30-2005 04:32 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
The day that a non-wealthy, non-connected person, from amongst the pack, runs for office, and wins, is when we will be self-governing.

When voting, I generally try to consider a candidate's position, integrity, and ability (though probably not in that order). While it's at least possible I could be convinced to vote for a non-wealthy, non-connected person, I really don't think it would happen very often. They would certainly have to convince me there was a valid reason why they failed to excel in private life before I would give them a chance at what I would have to assume would be an equally mediocre public life.
Denise
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34 posted 05-01-2005 12:12 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Good point, Ron, but maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe too many people, even subconsciously, equate 'excelling' with wealth (even the inherited old money or marital varieties) and elite social connection, and perhaps place too much emphasis on those factors when evaluating the worth of a candidate.  What other qualities might someone possess besides wealth and social connection, I wonder, that would be indicative of one's ability to effectively represent the voter? Or do effective leaders inevitably rise to the top in the economic and social realms?
Ron
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35 posted 05-01-2005 03:53 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Or do effective leaders inevitably rise to the top in the economic and social realms?

I doubt it's inevitable, but I do think it's so common as to perhaps appear inevitable. Just as we must satisfy base needs before pursuing higher needs, I suspect we typically satisfy close needs, tied to self and family, before addressing extended needs. Those still struggling with the former aren't likely to be much better at the latter.  
Local Rebel
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36 posted 05-01-2005 07:24 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

We certainly wouldn't have called Marie Currie or Albert Einstein at the top of economic or even social success.  It depends upon what one's aims are.  

Jesus was certainly not at the top of economic or social success.

It could be argued that only the most unscrupulous characters are going to make it into those circles -- but I don't think it would be fair to put Jobs, Gates, Edison, or Bell into that catagory.

Then again -- Thomas Jefferson filed bankruptcy 5 times.  Harry Truman was a failed habadasher.  

We could say too that those who inherit their money don't deserve position either -- but then we'd have to rule out a couple of Roosevelts who were both superior.

It's all just too complex -- we have to look at these people and issues on a case by case basis.

If you merely apply your cynicism to the entirety of the human race Denise -- instead of just politicians -- you'd come to see that it just isn't possible for a grand conspiracy to exist -- people will always fight to get to the top.

The best thing we can do is keep checks and balances in place -- and part of those checks and balances is to see to it that the extra-constitutional dimension of party politics remains balanced as well.
Brad
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37 posted 05-02-2005 10:55 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
In my opinion, Brad, definite versus indefinite has very little to do with the meaning of the sentence. If anything, we're talking about specific versus generic articles, which can be applied to both the definite (the) and indefinite (a, an). All three articles can be used to indicate that a noun references a whole class, in which case the usage is called generic (from the Latin word meaning class). The difference between the indefinite a and an and the generic a and an is that the former means any one member of a class, while the latter means all the members of a class.

"A Mercedes is in my parking space." This typifies the use of an indefinite article that applies to a specific noun.


Well, Ron, thanks for caring. You're still wrong, of course:

"The Mercedes is parked in my parking space."

If you don't or can't tell a difference then you can't hear it. Not yet.

Look. I'm not really angry at this. I see it, I think Mike simply forgot what he can actually do (Does anybody remember that I actually like what he writes?). He's a good poet when he writes poetry, he's simply wrong when he tries to read someone from the
Left.

There are books on this stuff if anyone is interested?

Brad
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38 posted 05-02-2005 11:03 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Ron, no offense meant, but if you can't come up with an example that works, you don't have an argument.

Your turn.

vlraynes
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39 posted 05-02-2005 05:24 PM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes


Brad?...

I know I have nothing to do with this conversation, and as a result, I fully expect to be insulted by you, just as you have insulted the others here...

I have witnessed your attacks and insults in a number of threads, and I guess I just can't stay quiet anymore.

With all due respect, what makes you think that you are so much better than the rest of us?  Are you not merely human?  What makes it acceptable for you to constantly  treat others as if they are 'less than'?

I'm sorry, but I don't see anyone else getting away with the kind of insults that you so readily dish out.

Even if you sincerely believe that the person you are addressing isn't as well-educated or intelligent as you are, or even if you think him/her to be just plain 'wrong', EVERYONE still deserves to be treated with common courtesy and respect.

So, there's my two cents.  Do with it what you will.
Ron
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40 posted 05-02-2005 09:02 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Well, Ron, thanks for caring. You're still wrong, of course:

"The Mercedes is parked in my parking space."

If you don't or can't tell a difference then you can't hear it. Not yet.

I can tell the difference, Brad, and I can certainly hear the difference. I'm honestly a little surprised you can't?

While your version certainly isn't wrong, using a definite article shifts the emphasis of the sentence, much in the same way we use inversion. You're talking about a very specific Mercedes, "the" Mercedes, and that therefore becomes the principle focus of the sentence.

"Where is the company Mercedes today?"

"The Mercedes is parked in my parking space."

An indefinite article, on the other hand, shifts the emphasis away from the subject. In my version, it matters not at all which Mercedes is in my parking space, because that's not the focus of what is being communicated.

"Why are you late?"

"A Mercedes is parked in my parking space."

Try answering the second question with the first answer and not only will it make less sense with the definite article, but the next question will inevitably be "Which Mercedes?" And that's not the response my statement hopes to elicit. Writers, I should hope, recognize that where the stress is placed makes a subtle difference. Good writers, I should hope, recognize that the subtleties matter.

More importantly, Brad, to return to the real topic, the meaning of Dean's sentence does NOT depend on his choice of articles. Whether he's talking about a definite security problem or an indefinite one, the meaning is the same. If the sentence could be reworded to use a definite article (and not all sentences can), it would only shift the focus, not the meaning.

And Brad? Vicki is right. Being curt is one thing, insulting is another entirely. If you are lacking either the time or patience to avoid casting insults, now might be a good time to explore why.
Brad
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41 posted 05-08-2005 04:48 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
"The president has created an enormous security problem for the United States where none existed before.

Quite an amazing statement there. If there had been no security problem before, how did 9/11 happen? How did the nine major terrorist attacks between 1990 and 2001 occur? A man would have to be an idiot to make this statement. The security problem was ALWAYS there. We simply chose to ignore it until it came to an action that could not be ignored. On the other hand, the point that turns you off, Noah, is the one point that makes me respect him. He is intelligent enough to accept that we ARE, right or wrong, in Iraq and must act accordingly and responsibly, not just tell the Iraqi people "see ya later. Deal with it." At least he can understand that and I don't understand how anyone could object to those thoughts.


And I have lowered the rhetoric around here ...
Brad
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42 posted 05-08-2005 05:08 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Let's see, a casual perusal on this board shows words like idiot, psycho, schmuch or some.

Some?


quote:
Some, indeed, never learn

--Ron

Now, do I start quoting from the Schiavo threads?

Am I being rude? Perhaps, but if I have a goal in mind, it's to slow down this rhetorical juggernaut of hatred.

It's to make you look in a mirror.

If that's condescending, so be it.

Local Rebel
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43 posted 05-08-2005 07:34 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Glad you came back Brad and submitted a tad more appropriate postings.  

It does get frustrating trying to figure out the moods of the moderators from time to time in knowing what is going to be considered appropriate and what isn't, but, all of you are human beings with brain chemistry and stuff going on in real life and I'm just happy that you're all willing and able to spend the volunteer time to provide a web space where we can do this.  

And, I thank all of the Gods I'm agnostic about that I can participate without having to pull a tour of duty -- I've done enough of that kind of stuff and I know how troublesome dealing with people can be.  But there is a reward too.  It's like peeling an orange -- it gets sticky and messy -- but you have to go through that to get to the sweet stuff inside.  Thanks to all of you for dealing with the peeling.

I'll just say that in this case I don't think you took the most efficacious approach to making your point.  The latest polls show some stunningly contradictory numbers -- that a majority of Americans are now not happy about the war in Iraq -- but at the same time -- a majority still think Iraq had something to do with 9/11.  A focus on facts instead of grammar would have helped you to lead by example and may have informed those thousands whom click in and never say anything.  

I always look forward to reading what you, Ron, Mike, Denise, Tim, Cat, Noah (although I still wish he'd quit centering his prose and using eye straining colors), Jim, Christopher -- um -- just get out the member list -- have to say.

I hope to see more of the old Brad getting back to the topic.
Brad
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44 posted 05-08-2005 08:49 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
A focus on facts instead of grammar would have helped you to lead by example and may have informed those thousands whom click in and never say anything.


I don't know about that. If I had just pointed that Dean meant going into Iraq created a security problem where none was before (That is, in Iraq), it would have missed the point. Somebody would have pointed out that Iraq was a security problem already, everybody thought Iraq was a security problem anyway, and it doesn't matter because Iraq was always potentially a security threat.

But you're right I need to calm down, take some time off (something I've been trying to do anyway) and get back to peeling.   

Tim
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45 posted 05-08-2005 10:42 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Dean is not where he is at because he is articulate, makes sense, or holds consistent opinions.

He is the attack dog of the Democrats and I suspect most serious professional Democrats aren't real happy about that fact.  He is not doing too bang up of a job in raising money and is fairly proficient at sticking his foot in his mouth.

Dean got his support from the non-professional, far left and pacifist wing of the party.  His problem is, with exception of Iraq, he has never met a war he didn't support and there are a few he would like to see that haven't came about.

He supported Clinton in ignoring the U.N. and going into Bosnia.  He supported the first gulf war. He wanted us to go into Liberia.  

He states Iran and Korea are far greater threats than Iraq ever was and that Iraq was not a threat.  Brad indicates a response would have been that Iraq was a threat.  That would seem the fairly logical response.  One could argue Iraq was not a threat.  Dean's position in that regard is somewhat weakened by his willingness to support any other military action that comes down the pike.

I see Dean as a fairly insignificant player right now other than giving Senator Clinton a foil to play off to show she is a centrist hawk.

I still submit the interest political show is Reid who appears to be playing into the Republicans' hands and following Local Rebel's advice to be an attack dog rather than Senate Majority leader.

The statement about President Bush being a loser had to bring a smile to the President's advisors.  If you are a minority and have to rely on the moderate or more liberal wing of the opposion party, that certainly is a way to win their support.

Reid is trying to do the right thing as far as working the system, but unfortunately, the paranoia that pervades the present political climate is forcing him to walk a tightrope.  He has teetered a few times.

[This message has been edited by Tim (05-08-2005 11:46 PM).]

Balladeer
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46 posted 05-09-2005 12:14 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting to pop back in and see what's going on...

A man would have to be an idiot to make this statement.

Brad, you may certainly point at this statement of mine as insulting but it was an insult at Dean, not anyone here, since the statement was his. That is no different that someone calling Bush insulting names, which has certainly been done more than once. I don't see where calling Dean and idiot somehow justifies you to use that as a comparison to your personal insults towards people here......but, then again, since I can't read from the left, I'm probably missing something
Brad
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47 posted 05-09-2005 10:31 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Mike,

Please remember, I still respect you. No, you're still wrong on this. But that's okay. Time off begins now.

Hell, if it were someone else, I probably wouldn't have cause so many problems.

vlraynes
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48 posted 05-09-2005 02:44 PM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes

For the record...

When I posted the above comments, I was not speaking as a moderator.  I was speaking as a fellow human being and long-time member of this community, and that is the voice I will continue to use here.

I have witnessed the insulting and condescending behavior on many occasions, and though I am not generally a confrontational person, I finally felt inclined to say something about it.

Not surprisingly, Brad, you did not see fit to address me personally about my comments.  Instead, you chose to bypass me completely, and respond to Ron... and with more of the same insulting behavior, no less.

Yes, Brad... there have been inappropriate comments by others as well; however, what disturbs me about your behavior is the consistency with which you treat others as a lower life form.


You said...

"It's to make you look in a mirror.

If that's condescending, so be it."


With all due respect, Brad, perhaps it is you who should look in a mirror.
Brad
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49 posted 05-10-2005 10:13 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Believe me, you do not want to do this.

I have accepted your comments, I have decided to leave.

Why isn't that enoough?

I generally do not respond directly to people who say they have no interest in the topic. I don't consider anybody who says that worth the time.

Ron did.

Sorry again.
 
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