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Passions in Poetry

democracy

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Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


25 posted 02-05-2005 01:45 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
The sense that I get is that the vast majority of the Iraqis view us as their protectors and want us to stay ...

Maybe. I honestly couldn't say, nor do I think many can. What I do know, Denise, is that what someone wants is only relevant if given a choice. A military occupation is defined by a lack of choice.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


26 posted 02-05-2005 02:07 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Denise, again you've ignored/failed to apply the list of factors to yourself, and tell me how you would react in a similar situation.it's not unfounded criticism, its based on an analytical look at the election.

go ahead call me a pessimist.

blind optimism is far more dangerous than pessimism,as devotion to this orwellian administration and its ideals have proven.my views are drawn from critical analysis of the current situation and its historical background.

if i am completely wrong about the situation, nothing would make me happier Denise.if you are wrong,however,what will you feel?more importantly, what of the iraqis who dared to dream, i think we know what they'll feel..

so by all means, enjoy your silver linings.may they come true for all our sakes.

Balladeer
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27 posted 02-05-2005 03:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Denise, I share your optimism and hope. Is there room on that silver lining for me, too...?
Denise
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since 08-22-99
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28 posted 02-05-2005 03:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Applying it to myself, placing myself in Saddam's Iraq, I would not see the U.S. as occupiers, but as liberators and protectors.
Denise
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since 08-22-99
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29 posted 02-05-2005 07:54 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Always, Michael, always.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


30 posted 02-05-2005 08:25 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

"Applying it to myself, placing myself in Saddam's Iraq, I would not see the U.S. as occupiers, but as liberators and protectors"

saddam hussein has absolutely nothing to do with the hypothetical question, nor the factors that call into question the election.the only possible connection between them is that invariably a similar regimes and problems will emerge.

well,the region in italy i'm from has a superstition, staring into the eyes of madmen will drive you mad. for fear that reading their words will have the same effect, i'm off.
Denise
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31 posted 02-06-2005 07:52 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I thought you asked me to put myself in place of the Iraqi people, Raph? I did, mentally. That would include a 30+ history under the dictatorship of Saddam, followed by the diposing of him, previous to the current situation and elections. How can one separate the history from it and say it isn't relevant?

News flash, Raph. Those that don't agree with you are not necessarily madmen.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
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the ass-end of space


32 posted 02-06-2005 12:37 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

newsflash, it's not that you disagree, it's how and why you do, that makes me question sanity/motives.

now, what i asked was that you to put yourself in the place of an American voter having to deal with the circumstances listed in the original post.

i can only clarify and repeat a query so many times before i begin to question the poster's ability to follow the discussion.as i know you're not unintelligent, the alternative is to question your mindset.

the 'madness',is a blind devotion to the administration and its policies.justifying the unjustifiable. and in this thread, spinning or refusing to deal with the actual question because the answer may, just may. not align with the bush's fantasy new world order that you've chosen to believe in.

take care of the rest of the trinity.

p.s. all apologies to Ron/ and the moderator who was forced to edit this thread.not for what was said, but that it was said here.
Denise
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33 posted 02-06-2005 01:56 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Facing the same situation as did the Iraqis, I would like to say that I would do the best that I could under the circumstances (and be grateful for the opportunity to do so), but I probably would not have had the guts to go to a polling place under the threat of death to myself and to my children. And no, I wouldn't call the results illegitimate. I think voting under those circumstances would tend to give more legitimacy to the voting process, in that the people who voted were so serious about it that they did so at the risk of their lives and the lives of their children.

And I disagree with some of your premises, so of course I won't come to the same conclusions as you do. I disagree with your characterization that the Iraqis are under occupation. I disagree that not knowing all the names of all the candidates is necessarily a hindrance as I'm sure that there was some designation as to their party/affiliation/tribe (which would tend to give a hint as to what their platforms were) somewhere on the ballots with the names of those running for the 275 slots for the Interim Council.

Was the election perfect? No. None ever will be anywhere in the world, at any time. That doesn't mean that we not have them until we can figure out a way to make them more perfect. And then of course, everyone would have their own definition of perfect, and if something as relative as that were the prerrequisite, then I guess there would never be another election anywhere ever again.

But was it the illegitimate disaster that you seem to want to paint it? I don't think so. If it did nothing more than show to the world the Iraqi people's courage and willingness to brave death to voice their opinion to opt for democracy over tyranny, to express solidarity against the terrorists, then that in and of itself made it a splendid success.

I also don't have a blind devotion to the administration and its policies. There are a few things that I would definitely handle differently. But I do agree with the way the administration is handling the Iraq situation and the broader war on terrorism (the opposite of appeasement). And I prefer the new world order that may come of that than any that you might espouse, I'm sure.

And if you think that makes me delusional, well, you are entitled to your opinion.

Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


34 posted 02-06-2005 03:23 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


For a moment I thought of what Japan was
and what it became during and after the American occupation.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


35 posted 02-06-2005 03:36 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

as i promised myself i'd leave the alley, i'll only comment on what is yet another glaring example of the spinning/semantic play that led me to use the phrases blind devotion and delusion.


quote:
I disagree with your characterization that the Iraqis are under occupation


oc·cu·pa·tion :  ..#3a.Invasion, conquest, and control of a nation or territory by foreign armed forces
3b. The military government exercising control over an occupied nation or territory

*3a - as far as i recall, and interestingly enough, a foreign coalition attacked, monitors and holds control of much iraq's territories

3b - that same foreign military's tanks,aircraft and personnel still perform patrols, attack 'insurgents' and call/enforce curfews

shakes head.nuff said

Denise
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36 posted 02-06-2005 05:03 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

We're still there, Raph, because their military and police forces are not fully up to the task of protecting and defending the Iraqis yet without assistance from us. That's something that takes time (or is that yet another glaring example of my madness and delusion?) We did hand the reigns of sovereignty over to them a while back. We can't do anything over there without the yea or nay of Allawi (remember Falluja?)

Your reply is yet another glaring example of your intolerance of views not your own and your demeaning behavior towards those who hold those views.

quote:
nuff said


Until you can treat others who don't agree with you respectfully, that's probably for the best.
Tim
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since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


37 posted 02-06-2005 05:17 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Eason Jordan, CNN.  

What more needs to be said.
 
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