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Passions in Poetry

Never again

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Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


0 posted 01-25-2005 02:54 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


“Never again.”

I’ve noticed that commingled with commemorations
have been ominous remarks about Israel itself, in the absence
of satisfactory action on the part of the United States, (it hardly
can expect any from the UN), strategically attacking sites
in Iran critical to that country’s nuclear weapons program.
By virtue of an earlier thread that was titled by no more
than a literal translation from a banner draped on a missile
paraded in Tehran, you are acquainted with the lethal attitude
the regime in Iran has toward Israel.  It can be said that an,
by all accounts, unpopular and repressive regime is attempting
to sustain and gather support for itself by again focusing hatred
on the Jews.  The Jews, mindful of history, unwilling to rely
on the kindness of others, now have apparently been sending
intimations that they will not long be idle in the face of Iran’s
growing threat to their existence.   What is your response
to that very real possibility?
Denise
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1 posted 01-25-2005 08:48 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Prayer. For their success in defending themselves and for their protection against the hatred and agression directed at them.
Aenimal
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2 posted 01-25-2005 09:43 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

as an aside,slightly off topic. at what point in history will we condemn zionist hatred and aggression against the palestineans? anti-semetism is alive and well, but it would do people good to remember that 'semite' doesn't mean jew exclusively.

the semetic peoples include arabs and that said, yes, anti-semitism is at a high. both sides are being vilified, feeding the cycle as the west refuses to acknowledge the truths about the middle-east.

again i direct you to writers like uri avenry, noam chomsky.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


3 posted 01-25-2005 10:10 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Raphael,

And what about the question asked
in the topic?
Aenimal
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4 posted 01-25-2005 11:02 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

i think it's insane and all hell will break lose if it happens.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


5 posted 01-25-2005 11:13 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Well, now we’re back to the guy with the gun scenario,
only it is known he is getting a gun, he has expressed
his intentions.  You may want to wait until you know
with certainty he is pointing it at you; of course by
that time there will be no time if and when he pulls the trigger;
all you can do is die, maybe firing your own gun for
the satisfaction of taking him with you; however
dying may be perfectly acceptable, even desirable, to him.

If you were Jewish, with the Holocaust in your history,
what would you do?


Aenimal
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6 posted 01-25-2005 11:36 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

well, if it were in my history, i wouldn't turn around and subjugate another race.

quote:
all you can do is die, maybe firing your own gun for the satisfaction of taking him with you


except this isn't a one on one battle for your life, millions of lives hang in the balance and im sorry to say, humanity means more than political/ideological grievances. just what do you think will happen if israel attacks iran? certainly you don't think it's a regional spat? its a catylst for a global war.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


7 posted 01-26-2005 01:17 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

"global war"

Who would fight it?

I can't imagine France, Germany, Russia, China, taking up arms for either side.
The United States?  I wouldn't favor it; there would be little or no support.

P.S.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4208809.stm

Another sign.

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (01-26-2005 01:51 PM).]

Alicat
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8 posted 01-26-2005 01:25 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

If it does go to that extreme, it would be global.  Sure, it may start small, or comparitively, with Arab nations once again going against Israel, but it could very quickly escalate pulling Europe, kicking and screaming, into the morass.  Reason?  High Muslim populations, high Jewish populations.  And if the fans are flamed, as I've no doubt they would be, America would be dragged in as well thanks to networks like Al-Jezeera and radical ultra-conservative imans.  And like it or not, most of the world's oil comes from the Middle East, not just for the US or China, but for Europe as well.  Judging from history, the US will get blamed, just like they did with Somalia, though that was a UN peacekeeping effort, and Saddam's atrocities after the Gulf War of 91.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


9 posted 01-26-2005 02:00 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Alicat,

“but it could very quickly escalate pulling Europe, kicking and screaming, into the morass.  Reason?  High Muslim populations, high Jewish populations.”

A series of religious civil wars?  There aren’t that many Jews left in Europe.

“And if the fans are flamed, as I've no doubt they would be, America would be dragged in as well thanks to networks like Al-Jezeera and radical ultra-conservative imans.”

Please explain.

I don’t see the United States going to war for oil, not with its own sources
and Russia’s available.  It would be pretty hard to sell; young men and women
being killed to keep SUVs topped off.

I just remembered, there was a survey done decades ago that found
that only 20% of Americans would favor going to war for Israel’s sake.
I very much doubt that figure has increased since.

Alicat
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10 posted 01-26-2005 02:33 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

It's not just about Israel, Iran, and oil.  Factors, yes, but not the totality.  I have no illusions that if widespread armed conflict erupted throughout the Middle East, it would boil over into Europe, which really isn't that far from there, Africa, with large Muslim populations, Southeast Asia, with again large Muslim populations and those wanting seperatists governements, Asia with hostilities between China and Taiwan, and North Korea with just about everyone out there.  All it would take for a general bruhaha of massive proportions is one domino ticking into another, starting the chain reaction.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


11 posted 01-26-2005 02:55 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


“Asia with hostilities between China and Taiwan, and North Korea”

I don’t see why they would allow themselves to become involved
in what essentially would be a religious war.

“it would boil over into Europe”

Well, you are talking religious war there.  They’re used to that.
But it would be a hard sell in the U.S., because involvement
would almost certainly mean a religious war here, and frankly
I don’t think any, Christians at least,  are that eager to go, even to Heaven.

Aenimal
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12 posted 01-26-2005 05:33 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

I can't imagine France, Germany, Russia, China, taking up arms for either side.

As Alicat stated, high Muslim and Jewish populations. Huan, I'm not sure where you get the notion there aren't many Jews left in Europe.

The United States?  I wouldn't favor it; there would be little or no support.

You honestly think Israel's closest ally and supporter wouldn't join the battle, especially with Iran high on their target list anyway? btw Iraq wasn't exactly an easy sell for everyone.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


13 posted 01-26-2005 07:43 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Raphael,

If Bush had come to the American people
and said we’re going into Iraq as an ally
to support Israel, how much chance do you
think he would have had completing his first term
much less gaining a second.  Americans will not
fight for Israel.

According to some estimates, Hitler managed
to kill 90% of Jews living in Europe, (Poland
was virtually depopulated).  That and subsequent
migrations to both Israel and the United States
were behind my comment.

Alicat
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since 05-23-99
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14 posted 01-26-2005 07:55 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

There's been roughly three generations since then, and people have this annoying habit of breeding.  I mean, look at the American Boomers.  Hundreds of thousands of Americans killed during WWII, then a bit over 18 million born between 45 and 64.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


15 posted 01-26-2005 08:12 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Alicat,

Ok, somebody look it up.  Last night PBS
said there were 14 million Moslems in Europe
which I think was meant as everything West
of Poland.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/

How many Jews are there?

Sorry, beat you to it.
  
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/concepts/demography/demtables.html#4

They don’t have a chance.


P.S.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/anglo14.html
Alicat
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since 05-23-99
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16 posted 01-26-2005 08:30 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Funny...the same was said from 1946 through 1972.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


17 posted 01-26-2005 08:37 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Things have changed in thirty years.


P.S.

On the other hand , here’s something to dream
about.   In 1976 there was a novel published:
“The Masada Plan”  by Leonard Harris

The Masada Plan

The basic plot is that Israel is attacked and about to be overwhelmed.
At this time Israel let’s the world know that it had  previously placed
nuclear weapons in each of the world's major cities, (London, Paris, New York etc.),
and promises to detonate them as Israel passes into non-existence,
unless the world acts to avoid that event.

Pretty neat, huh?

[This message has been edited by Alicat (01-26-2005 09:14 PM).]

Alicat
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since 05-23-99
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18 posted 01-26-2005 09:13 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Well, if you don't think Israel and Jews worldwide don't have what it takes to do whatever it takes, that's your albatross, not mine.  I still believe, just from their history, that they still have the tenacity, strength, and spirit to do whatever it takes to defend themselves against those who want to exterminate their nation and race.

Although race is more religion, since, as pointed out previously, Semetic describes certain physical characteristics that are common throughout the Mediterranean all the way up to the Black Sea and across to the Indian Peninsula.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
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19 posted 01-26-2005 09:16 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

How many Jews are there?...They don’t have a chance.

First of all, the thinning of the Jewish population in Europe is often attributed to intermarriage and assimilation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#Population_Changes:_Assimilation

Second the comparison of Jewish population  vs Muslim population numbers is irrelevent as a factor of involvement in our hypothetical war.

You're forgetting about political sway. Lobbyists, Corporations, special Interest groups and other positions of power rest in the hands of both populations throughout Europe and the Americas. and they would demand or sway involvement.

Again going back to whether the US would involve itself.Israel has had an incredible sway on US policy and its only grown over the last decade. There's little doubt the US would join and that the war could easily be sold in light of the War on Terror campaign.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


20 posted 01-26-2005 09:18 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Alicat,

See my P.S.

You're right.

"Although race is more religion, since, as pointed out previously, Semetic describes certain physical characteristics that are common throughout the Mediterranean all the way up to the Black Sea and across to the Indian Peninsula."

Right, Jews can count on that making a
difference.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


21 posted 01-26-2005 09:26 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Raphael,

“First of all, the thinning of the Jewish population in Europe is often attributed to intermarriage and assimilation.”

That it’s safer to do so may have something to do with it,
and in Europe there was a severe reduction of the dating pool.

Again, if Israel were attacked, and the United States Government
tried to sell going to its aid with anything other than Lend Lease
it would fail.  Americans will not allow it to send their sons
and daughters to die for Israel.

However, see my P.S. above.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
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22 posted 01-26-2005 09:34 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

What can I say, I disagree. In light of the war on terrorism many would. But the more important factor is they simply wouldn't have a choice. Whether you agree or not, such an action would pull in certain countries and allies, at which point everyone else would be pulled into the fray.

PS Whether the Masada Plan is myth or fact doesn't matter, you don't need to plant nuclear devices when you can plant people in the right positions of power. And they have, brilliantly.
Alicat
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since 05-23-99
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23 posted 01-26-2005 09:48 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Saw the PS, Huan, and edited the very long url into something a bit shorter, namely the name of the book.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


24 posted 01-26-2005 09:51 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Raphael,

The American government has strained itself making a distinction
between its war on terrorism and its support for Israel,
(which many Moslems do not believe), because,
(I think), to admit a link would have injured popular support
for its efforts, ( it may be a stretch but it’s something like
Lincoln not being able to come out and say at the onset
that the Civil War would be fought not just for union but
to end slavery; even after Antietam that was a problem).
It is one thing to send money, another to lose blood.
And the one thing Vietnam has taught us is that without
American support at home, Americans lose wars abroad.

 
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