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Passions in Poetry

Basic Respect

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Alicat
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0 posted 01-20-2005 08:30 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

This isn't intended as a political thread, and I really hope it doesn't go there.  This is about respect, basic respect.

When the DNC was holding their convention, Republicans and Conservatives pretty much stayed away.  It was the Democrat's time, and was respectful of that.  Then the RNC had their convention, and protestors crawled out of the woodwork.

When Clinton was elected both times, I did not raise my voice in dissent.  There was plenty of time for that later.  It was his time, and my silence was out of respect for the Office.  If Gore had won in 2000, same thing.  Respect for the Office, and it's his day.  Had Kerry won this election, I would still be respectful of the Office and it's his day.  There's plenty of time for protests later.

Yet with Bush's first term, there were protestors at his Inauguration, and there'll be protestors at his second Inauguration.  Where's the respect of Office and it's his day?  For some reason, I keep getting this picture in my head of a wedding, with prior girlfriends/boyfriends, prior spouses, and total strangers standing in the back of the church shouting their disapproval and showing their disdain, never caring for a moment that it is that couple's day.

What happened to basic respect, or has it gone the way of the dodo and common sense?
nakdthoughts
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1 posted 01-20-2005 08:37 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

It's a matter of win at all costs and poor "sportmanship" today

You see it everywhere in all manners of life...and it is very depressing

M
Huan Yi
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2 posted 01-20-2005 08:37 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Iím more concerned about someone blowing up
in the crowd.
LeeJ
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3 posted 01-20-2005 08:58 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

darlin, if people do not own respect for themselves, they will never respect or display an allowance out of respect for others...it's a shame, but it is unfortunately bred down through family, as is prejedice and hate....

I hear ya and know where your coming from...
3 cheers for ya...
SEA
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with you


4 posted 01-20-2005 09:11 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

seems to me that people think they are owed respect for just breathing...not for being a good person and treating other people with respect. I get real tired of that kind of mind set. The people who believe they are owed respect without ever giving it to anyone, who think they should be heard, but never listen...who take, without giving. It's disgusting.
Juju
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5 posted 01-20-2005 10:25 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Two wrongs don't make a right. I respect just about everyone. there are a few exceptions, but only a few.  Respect isn't earned its given. poeple who think some one has to earn respect, often are called jerks. Every one should be treated with respect, like a human. I even respect poeple I don't like. It is a matter of charectar. You don't have to like them, but you should respect them.

Juju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Midnitesun
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6 posted 01-20-2005 10:30 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

"protestors crawled out of the woodwork"
Well, with all due respect and understanding that politeness is not part of politics, never has been... it seems to me, this comment itself is disrepectful, as the majority of the protestors aren't vermin, didn't crawl from any hidden spots, and its only a matter of perspective to suggest that there were no protestors against the Kerry/Edwards campaign, or that there was no mudslinging aimed at Clinton. Politics has never been a delicate whiteglove affair.
As for other avenues of social interaction? I'd say there appears to be a breakdown in civility, but history tells me that underneath the outward mask of civility there has always been a boiling kettle of mistrust and disrespect. Perhaps, what we are now observing, is the peeling back of some masks?
There were major protests against Lincoln, and multiple death threats. And I can't help but believe that much of what you perceive as a decrease in 'politeness and respect'  is in part due to the near-instant media coverage. We are all more highly visible these days. You can't even frown without someone knowing.
SEA makes a good point, that most people believe respect must be earned. One way to earn is to give it..in all circumstances, to all people whether or not they hold the same beliefs. Sadly, I don't see that happening often enough anywhere on this planet.
But I like to think everyone is given basic equal respect to begin with. Politicians have to be tough, if they can't stand the pressure of protest, how will they hold up under missile atacks?
And politics aside, I see respect and disrespect daily in all walks of life, but don't believe our modern culture is really any less respectful than society was a thousand years ago.
Christopher
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7 posted 01-20-2005 12:07 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Is it disrespectful to stand up for what you believe in, even if you can no longer affect a made decision?

If so, then I guess one of the things our constitution upholds is the right to be disrespectful.
Mistletoe Angel
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8 posted 01-20-2005 12:50 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I very much sympathize with those who worry at major protest events such as the inauguration ones, there may end up being a Seattle WTO-type of riot or something. I do not wish for any violence or people blowing up in the crowds, I believe 99.9% of us agree there.

I have said before that I believe protesting should be educational and promote a positive message to how you can give back to your community and solve the problems we face. I keep "fascist" out of my protest diction and I rather just report news stories related to war and peace in the world and say in an unscripted tone what must be done and how to do so or where you can go to do so. Should there be angst in these rallies and gatherings? Plenty. Should there be moral outrage? Definitely. But what I think is often lacking is that positive inviting message, which I actually consider the most important element to a successful protest.

The fact is, the administration asked for it. They and the media continue to pretend as though they speak for every American, when that couldn't be any further from the truth. I will not allow an aggressive foreign policy in which innocent people are being hurt. I will not allow suppression of civil liberties. I will not allow the oppression of the social grassroots movement.

There's a reason why me and others protest this day. To show Bush and America that the whole "mandate" jibjab, Bush claiming the election has revealed America's position on Iraq, etc. is all a lie. The nation remains intensely polarized, and to have as many as possible come out and reveal their dissent is symbolic, for the more that come out, the more we keep the media from painting fictions and fallacies about us.

It's also a reminder. It's also saying we haven't forgotten. Haven't forgotten the thousands killed in this war he's responsible for starting. Haven't forgotten the suppression of civil liberties from gays to Muslim-Americans. Haven't forgotten his terrible environmental record. Haven't forgotten things like that. And we're going to continue to see to it we hold him responsible for what has been done and we'll continue to challenge his policies.

Hey, in case you forgot also, the DNC had their convention, and there WERE protesters. Plenty of them, and they were trapped like animals in the "free-speech zone". That's just one symbolic reason I believe the Democratic Party may be better than the Republican Party, but not much better, and both parties are corrupted to the core by mad corporate influence.

When the government begins to show more respect to America, then they will get my respect. But I find nothing more disrespectful personally than taking our great nation into a senseless war and then the minds behind it can't offer their sympathy to our young Americans in uniform, or violating many cornerstones of our democracy and the Bill of Rights.

They deserve what's coming to them. All the tears, anger, frustration and determination from the furnace of our hearts.

This is America, and in America the right to express our dissent is one of our greatest civil liberties, one which so many other countries would only dream to have someday. Alicat, you know you have the right whenever you want to go out there and protest. I wouldn't be complaining if you protested on both of Clinton's inauguration days, after all, Clinton did some pretty sickening things too, particularly to the homeless under the Welfare Reform Act. Hey, if I was involved politically then, I would be out there protesting Clinton too.

You saw the protests on television during the Republican National Convention. Weren't they incredibly peaceful? I am beyond impressed with how the protests shaped up there. So, you have nothing to worry about here. We're just going out there to say loud to the community that we'll not be mandated. It's like a "Everywhere we go...people wanna know...so we tell them...who we are..." type of address. Reminding everyone there is the other half of America who yearns for true freedom, true peace.

In a couple hours I'll be set to go out there! I'll be performing at the North Park Vigil.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Alicat
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9 posted 01-20-2005 01:10 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

That's the rub, isn't it.  I've nothing against peacable protests, as they are a vital component to the Democratic Process.  It's just my view that there's a time and place for everything.  Would it be too much to ask, irregardless of the situation, that when someone is having a special day, to let them have that day?  One day out of 4 years.

I consider my birthday to be My Day, just like I consider everyone's birthday Their Day.  Would it be just as appropriate to crash someone's birthday, even marching peacably carrying anti-person signs and banners?

You don't have to like Bush.  You don't have to like any politician.  But how about just a smidgeon of basic respect for the Highest Office, and according the person so honored just one day.  And Midnitesun, I'm really not sure how you read all that into one phrase, as that was not the definition I had in mind.
"protestors crawled out of the woodwork" was a convergence, a deluge, vastly outnumbering those who decided not to accord the DNC their day.
Midnitesun
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10 posted 01-20-2005 01:21 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

If the thread were really about basic respect, and you didn't want a political ballgame, why not choose some other example, say, maybe the way some people treat store clerks on Christmas day, a special day for so many?
There are hundreds of examles of disrespect and rudeness out there, that don't have a thing to do with politics.
That crawling-out-of-the-woodwork reference is so over-used, so abused. I personally think you are way too bright to rely on such phrases. Surely, you can be more creative?  
Mistletoe Angel
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11 posted 01-20-2005 01:39 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Alicat, again I appreciate your concern.

But that's just the problem. I still dream of a day in 4 years when progressive values could finally be preached across the corporate media. When third party candidates can finally be represented in all the same fashions our two corporate parties do, from the debates to a renewed ballot system. When the Bill of Rights can again be viewed just as authentically as the Constitution, where no matter where you come from or what religion you believe in, you are entitled to all the same God-given rights. I've been waiting over four years to see this happen.

You're absolutely correct when you say there's a place and time for everything. Unfortunately, when is the time, where is the place, for these type of values which most already agree and dream for? Most Americans already believe in them, so, what's the hold-up?

We're not even being given time. And that's exactly why there'll be many protesters out today. We'll be demanding time, demanding a place, for the other interests of Americans that are being neglected. Telling Bush, "Hey, this is not just your time, this is a time for America, and we represent America just as much as you do, so wise up and give us some time, or you'll keep hearing back from us on our watch!"

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
LoveBug
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12 posted 01-20-2005 01:46 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

"seems to me that people think they are owed respect for just breathing...not for being a good person and treating other people with respect"

Amen Sea!

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Christopher
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13 posted 01-20-2005 01:52 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I understand where you're coming from, Ali, but I think you need to mark the distinction between a "special day" being your birthday and it being an political event.

One can respect the office and not the man. If your beliefs put you into conflict with the man holding that office, I don't see how it can be considered disrespectful to the office itself to put out your voice expressing that conflict with the man.

We could go back to the "beginning" and consider the respect [we] had for our governing body - which we then fought to separate ourselves from. It wasn't a matter of disrespect, rather a matter of belief.
Huan Yi
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14 posted 01-20-2005 02:00 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


There was a term used regarding attitudes toward Bush today by a media analyst
that I think touches on what disturbs me; personal venom.  The analyst compared
Bush to Reagan who being equally if not more idealistic in his presentations
never himself was subject to the kind and amount of personal venom as was
and is directed at Bush.  It was fortuitous perhaps that Lincolnís name was
mentioned here for if you look at the history books youíll find that he too
was the object of a significant virulent animosity.  I am at a loss to understand
it.
Juju
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15 posted 01-20-2005 06:55 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Yes, it is to bad this deep rooted anger has to exist. Positive protesting is ok, its what the united states is built on. If I were to go to lets say An Ale Gore speech, I would not yell out you stink or any such phrase, while he was speeking, it is rude.

You know I have another bone to pick. you know what is rude, The way Ashely Simpson was bood off on the the stage. same kind of idea

Juju

Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic

The dictionary never lies.... I am magical (;

Balladeer
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16 posted 01-20-2005 07:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Throwing rocks at the president's limo as it passed? Sorry, Kacy, those people crawled...
Midnitesun
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17 posted 01-20-2005 07:47 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Mike! I hadn't heard about that, did that happen AFTER Alicat posted this? Of course I don't condone that type of behavior, but at the time I read this post, I don't think that incident had even happened yet, at least, it hadn't been anything I read at 8AM this morning before leaving for work.
Protesting and demonstrating without violence is not only OK, its a right as far as I interpret the Constitution. Violence isn't an appropriate way to be heard, though even our founding fathers and mothers resorted to it against the British.
You know me better than that, I don't condone rock throwing or throwing anything, for that matter, beyond words.
My comment stands.

BTW, they are standing out right this minute in the snow at -15 to -20F in Alaska to protest the Bush Administration. Just so you know, many people are protesting, nonviolently. And they stood out in the rain here in Oregon with protest signs....quietly, two blocks from the police department and city hall.
Alicat
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18 posted 01-20-2005 08:48 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Fruit, rocks, snowballs.  Someone burning the American flag in a side park.  Shouting and trying to interrupt proceedings.  If the street crews hadn't been so on the ball, I'm positive some horse pucky would've been in the mix.  In this, it really saddens me to be so jaded.  I was hoping it wouldn't be such a hard thing to ask, and I do understand that it is far easier to speak your mind than to refrain for only a moment out of respect.

Perhaps it's a generational thing.  Main reason I think that is seeing all the youthful collegiate faces in the protest crowds, some still with signs of baby fat.  And that could be just how they were raised, and how they chose to be.  My parents both came from the Depression Era, and all us kids were born after the end of the Baby Boom Era.  Add to that the military background, and respect for elders was paramount.  Treat lessers as equals, equals as superiors, and superiors like kings.  I know I've inadvertently upset many younger people by calling them Sir or Ma'am.  Even some older people judging from their retort 'I'm not that old!'.  And that's the distinction.  Some see that as an age thing, I see it as a respect thing.  Just basic respect.

Funny how something so simple could become so complicated.
Midnitesun
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19 posted 01-20-2005 09:04 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

It's a cheap shot to throw this at the youth. You apparently haven't seen the numbers of retired people out ther on the streets, holding up signs in the rain and the snow, begging this country to find other solutions than war and the aggressive attitudes they see in this administration. I am getting really tired of people blaming young people for all the troubles of this world.
Please, stop blaming the youth for everything you don't like about the protestors in this country.
Huan Yi
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20 posted 01-20-2005 09:23 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Alicat,

ďFruit, rocks, snowballs.  Someone burning the American flag in a side park.  Shouting and trying to interrupt proceedings.  If the street crews hadn't been so on the ball, I'm positive some horse pucky would've been in the mix.Ē

Because they know they can and suffer no consequences.
Havenít you ever been in a suburban bar and heard some
loud mouth bragging how tough he is, knowing itís because
of where heís at; in an environment that is civil and tolerant;
that that same tiger would not go down a street on the South Side
in broad daylight even if he were sealed in an armored car?
They make me smile.

I remember once
there was this white boy killer recruit in San Diego
who mistook a black D.I., (Staff Sergeant Davis),
for his mother . . .

(-:
RSWells
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21 posted 01-20-2005 09:45 PM       View Profile for RSWells   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RSWells

I had to read this twice. It read the same after I reclamped my dropped jaw.

There were 500,000 Americans marching in protest in NYC during the RNC. Believe it or not many were conservatives, christians and myriad others demonstrating...as is their right.

Bush was (somehow) the incumbent and had just been busted lying us into a war claiming vengeance on the perps of 9/11 who were elsewhere and still at large.

Respect? What kind of country would it be if we rolled over for every dirty politician just because he had finagled his way into office while we silently sat on our hands.

There was an abundance of respect in that it didn't turn into a Chicago DNC. If you weren't watching the massive, diverse and impressive demonstration/march on C-Span you'd not had known that half a million of your fellow americans were showing respect...to democracy.

Respect? Where was the respect for the public when real issues were avoided, lies and disparagement heaped on the challenger and Bush faced the press less than any modern president? When christians were mobilized to support a war agenda and halliburton was ripping us off?

Silence and complicity may be bought but respect my friend must be earned.

Poets against the war is redundant

Midnitesun
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22 posted 01-20-2005 09:50 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

John, what in the hell is that last comment all about?
Balladeer
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23 posted 01-20-2005 10:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hey, Kacy...I have no doubt you are against rock-throwing or violence of any kind....and I'm with you completely as far as everyone's right to protest...
Mistletoe Angel
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24 posted 01-20-2005 11:14 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Hey everyone, just got back from the day-long protests in Portland!

And all I can say is I couldn't imagine it being any better of a turnout. Rough estimates of turnout ranged from 3,000 to 5,000, no pepper spray was used, I only saw one arrest made, it was awesome.

I performed some songs over on the North Park lawn. I covered Jefferson Airplane's "Volunteers" and John Lennon's "Working Class Hero" and performed my own material, from "Fall In Love, Not In Line" to "Shells Are For Turtles". I also made a speech in front of the vigil at 3rd and Madison.

Alicat, relating to your point, I don't think its fair to blame the youth and their upbringing resulting in these rebellious instincts. The rest of my family voted, but my parents are more moderate and don't go out and get involved like I do. I believe emotions themselves draw people out there on the streets, not just spoon-feeding.

If Kerry had been inaugurated today, I would still be out there protesting, warning him, "I'm going to hold you to it...fulfill your promises and vows or you'll hear back from us, and if you don't do anything in ending this war, you will suffer the same response I gave under Bush each Friday!"

Any one of you can protest when you want. Often, the place is HERE. The time is NOW. (Just be back home by bedtime, we don't want to wake the neighbors! )

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

 
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