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DDT (for Tim)

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Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


25 posted 01-15-2005 03:20 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Noah,

Millions of people, especially children, are dying now, no what if
about it.  As to the Steven Milloy site*, it is not merely his opinion;
he is listing the findings of independent studies as well as offering
expert opinions which are clearly cited.  As Tim said, it makes no
difference then who collected the information.

I want to see the information you rely on, where does it come from?

“For all we know, there actually is truth behind the publication. I myself am skeptical to its authenticity, but there may be something to it.”

This is your basis for letting people die now?  I wonder if you would
be so complacent if they were dying in Connecticut instead of the Congo?


*"Note: The information presented here has been largely drawn from materials compiled by J. Gordon Edwards, professor of entomology at San Jose State University. Dr. Edwards testified at the 1971-1972 EPA hearings on DDT. Some research and all editing/formatting was done by Steven J. Milloy"
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


26 posted 01-15-2005 03:43 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Unfortunately, the discussion has already been held and Rachel Carson didn't find an acorn, she committed a fraud no matter how well intentioned she was that indirectly has led to the deaths of millions of children.

The studies have been done, Carson has been disproven, and I doubt anyone could seriously object to the statement that Ruckelshaus ignored the scientific evidence and recommendations presented in the hearings and made the decision based upon political rather than scientific grounds.
Mistletoe Angel
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since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


27 posted 01-15-2005 04:09 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Well, you see, now you must understand the frustration I felt in the weeks leading up to the war in Iraq.

I was one among 61% of Americans who believed then at least more time for inspections and diplomatic strategies should be done, but the administration was stubborn and insisted to just go.

You say millions of children are dying because we're not using DDT, there's no what ifs about it, and at the same time, there are tens of thousands dying in Iraq, and even when its original reasons and claims for going have been proven false, many continue to find new excuses and what ifs for the death and destruction down there.

And all because the administration didn't want to talk this out thoughtfully and responsibly, they didn't want to fulfill the wishes of the majority of Americans who wanted to ask more questions and demand more responses, and instead them and the media allowed the suppression of anti-war voices in the weeks leading up to March.

Why would I compare a war to the malaria woe in the world? Because I fear impatience and irresponsibility. It was impatience and irresponsibility that got us stuck in this senseless, immoral war in Iraq, and I fear if we don't consider and look at the possible long-term consequences before lifting the ban on DDT and using it again, years from now its possible unprecedented things will happen for the worse, for the health of humans, animals and our ecosystems, that we may later deeply regret.

Again, it's only a possibility. But this is a gamble nevertheless, and I just want to see to it we acknowledge the uncertainties, as well as continue to research the lesser-toxic alternative insecticides and make them more cost-efficient. That's the least I think I can ask for before making this bold move.

Is it too much to ask just to discuss and dispute the issues here? Is it too much to ask to ask questions and get responses, which the whole democratic process is all about?

I agree as soon as possible we must get this issue out to our local congressmen, the Congress, and all across the country so the people can decide together what's right.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


28 posted 01-15-2005 04:21 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



Noah,

Ah, there goes your never the less compass again;
yes millions of children are dying, but it

“always goes back to the Bush Administration as a corrupt administration getting away with murder.”


On your way, you could swim through a sea of corpses and not so much
as notice the stench.

Krawdad
Member Elite
since 01-03-2001
Posts 2627


29 posted 01-15-2005 04:34 PM       View Profile for Krawdad   Email Krawdad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Krawdad

This thread is stench.
I've had enough.
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


30 posted 01-15-2005 04:38 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Huan Yi,

Sometimes I have to seriously ask myself, "Does anyone care about the democratic process anymore?"

If 51% is truly a "mandate", then surely 61% must mean something far greater. It even breaks a filibuster. The fact is, a majority of Americans still questioned going to war in the weeks leading to it. A majority wanted their questions answered, demanded responses, wanted more time to make sense of this controversial issue.

Yet, the majority were suppressed, ignored, and excommunicated. Over 99% of the major network interviews conducted before the war were anything but anti-war representatives. Is that democracy?

As tens of thousands are dying in Iraq because of impatient haste and undemocratic discussion, I recognize the millions of others who are dying from insect-born diseases worldwide. We all do, we allready know that.

I am trying to help resolve the problem by building community. Make sure we don't make a similar mistake again that we later would live to regret. Discuss these matters democratically. We are only a microcosm of the discussion at large. I imagine there are other ends of this discussion none of us are even aware of that must be considered here.

I think it's downright simplistic and incredible how those like myself take all the blame for those millions of deaths around the world. Rather I believe it is the failure to connect and recognize the matters at hand accordingly. The failure to communicate I believe is the chief suspect.

OK, I think by now I've said enough in this thread as well. And if you can't accept my rather moderate opinion or proposal, so be it. But I'm not interested in soaking up any more of these incredible accusations.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


31 posted 01-15-2005 10:32 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Noah,

QED
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


32 posted 01-15-2005 11:35 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

a gamble nonetheless?

on one hand, we know countless children will needlessly die.

on the other hand, we have over sixty years of DDT use and scientific study to establish that Carson was wrong.

If DDT is used or not is not a gamble, it is a decision to be made that will either allow unnecessary death to occur in the third world due to political correctness of the "enlightened" industrial nations or will save lives.  

I suppose one could still debate whether one should eat apples or not since 60 Minutes established Alar was the most carcinogenic substance known to man.  With Alar we were only talking about apples, with DDT it involves lives of children.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


33 posted 01-16-2005 01:19 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Tim,

on one hand, we know countless,(not our), children will needlessly die.

with DDT it involves lives of, (their), children.

Hence we should examine and anticipate the potential extended effects before removing the barriers to DDT use; years hence it’s possible unexpected events will occur, adversely impacting the health of humans, animals, fish, plants, our entire ecosystem, that we may later deeply grieve.  It's only a chance, yet a chance nevertheless.

I hope you understand.
 
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