How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Camp of the Saints
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Camp of the Saints

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


0 posted 01-05-2005 09:05 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

“Mexican immigrants hoping to cross the Mexico-U.S. border can use an illustrated guide to help them break U.S. immigration laws and live in the United States illegally.

The 32-page booklet, free with popular comic books and advertised at bus stations and government offices south of the border, comes courtesy of the Mexican government.”

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143433,00.html


One estimate elsewhere has it that there were a million and a half illegal
immigrations, (so far no nineteen suicidal men out to kill Americans that
we know of), last year.  Is this a problem?  If so, I’ve heard one political figure support
an amnesty with the credible argument that the United States lacks the political
will to enforce its laws.   Do we want to close our borders with Mexico and
Canada except for rigidly controlled entry points?  Go chasing and deporting
those millions of illegal immigrants already in the country?  What changes are apt to
occur if nothing is done?  Issues have been raised in Europe.  Are they relevant
here?

Not having children I really have no stake in this issue as the effects
whatever they might be are apt to be really notable only after I’m dead or
too old and out of it to notice or care.

Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


1 posted 01-05-2005 10:39 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

For a country once accountable for allowing all immigrants to come to a "free land" it is still very difficult for me to conceive that we should be a land with borders....

and as I have flown over various areas of our country, I know that certain people could adapt well to various areas that are currently unpopulated; except, we are growing things "there" to help feed the rest of the world.

Paul Harvey said something like "how much can you grow on concrete" as we continue to grow....

and my husband asked tonight, "who came to help us?, when we experienced 9/11/01..."

I have no answers at this time.

All I know is, the USA continues to give.  How long will we give to others, before we begin to take care of ourselves?

I once heard that a wise man once said, "How can you clean up the world, when you can't clean up your room?"

Some things could be SO simple, John...I just wish I could find a way to make them see that...simply.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


2 posted 01-05-2005 11:32 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Your husband has a short memory.
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


3 posted 01-06-2005 12:06 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
Not having children I really have no stake in this issue as the effects
whatever they might be are apt to be really notable only after I’m dead or
too old and out of it to notice or care.
Do you honestly think you don't live in a world being affected by this immigration issue? Watch "A Day Without a Mexican" - it's an eye opener.

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


4 posted 01-06-2005 02:22 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I have no problem what-so-ever with anyone wanting to come to this country to live...but, what I do have a problem is, those who come to this country to suck off the system...

This is a very sore spot for me.  Why?  Well, thanks for asking, I'll explain.
My aunt lived in Calif. with HMO medical coverage.  for almost 8 months she was going to HMO doctors in an area which is overflowing with immigrants.  Five Doctors never tested her, but diagnosed her with hypergloxemia, border line diabetis...and was medicating her for those diseases.  
Not to mention, giving her some forms of very heavy tranquilizers...(without taking one test)  

Everytime she had a tremor, they took her to intensive care...where there before her were 30 to 40 immigrants not able to pay. She had to wait her turn.

Low and behold, 8 months later, her daughter-in-law comes to visit...and immediately sees, that her mother-in-law has a severe problem...not to mention, 26 bottles of meds she was taking from 4 different doctors who once again, lest I remind you, never took one test.  

Her daughter in law rushes her to the hospital and demands an MRI....low and behold, they conclude, there is a malignant brain tumor.  3 weeks later, she died.

Due to illegal immigrants entering this country at such a high rate, our medical care units in Calif., Arizona and etc. have been forced to close down.  Not to mention, less then adaquate medical care!  

My point is...I have no problem with anyone coming to this country, and wanting to become a part of the team...and there are those that do and are, and consider being American a privilege.  

But, there are also many more, who take advantage of our resources, the system, us....many more who are criminals....and drive without licenses, insurance, or can't even read.  They also know, that by being on welfare, the more children they have, the more money they receive, not to mention, working under the table, and even owning 2 or 3 social security numbers for each of their surnames!

Now to find out, it is manditory in most elementary schools to learn Spanish...what an insult!

The language here is English...

We are the ones responsible for this, we are making them lazy and creating the monster by not speaking up.

Should they be deported, YES...and we should start over with a controlled legal system that monitors every illegal in this country...be it 15 a year, or 100, but they should be monitored and required by law to learn the language, learn to read, learn the laws and rules and taught to be a working citizen of the United States.  And if they desire to live here, believe me, they will be proud to do so.

If we moved to any other country in the world, we would be required to live under their strick laws or pay the consequences.  

The question was asked, are we any safer then the day of 911.  The answer was, on a scale from 1 to 10....we were 1 when 911 happened, now we're a 3.  

There was a car of 3 illegal immigrants, just a week ago, spotted by a delivery man, taking pictures of the silos at 3 Mile Island.  Then spotted by a different man, at a different local by the silos taking more pictures.  Both these men, reported the incident...the men in the car were arrested and found to be illegal immigrants.  Do you know what they had the nerve to pass off as trivial?  They said the immigrants were tourists simply taking pictures.  Now I ask you, if you were on vacation, where would the first place you would want to go to take pictures?????  What an insult to the integrity and blood sweat and tears this country was fought for, and built on?  

Talk to any immigrant years ago...ask them how they came to this country and how quickly they learned the language.  Why, b/c they wanted to work hard to get ahead and become a working member of the community.

You sever the members, chaos and maham will follow.  You then divide the country....I don't believe people up North here fully understand the repercussions of this....the dangers, the complete stripping of our economy and social services....and medical care....and whats worse, both sides of the coin are responsible for this, not just this administration, as this has been going on for quit some time.

They want you to believe it would be difficult to shut down the boarders, to send these illegal immigrants back...but I warn you, what happened to my aunt, will be soon, nation wide, and we only have ourselves to blame.  

When you watch a TV show or movie or news report...please...don't believe all of what you hear....yes,indeed, there are reputuable people out there who wish to become a working citizen of the United States....and I commend, admire and thank them for doing so...but there are thousands more that know we're weak in the knees, and are taking advantage of our system to the best of they're ability.  And nothing is being done about it.  Can you imagine, the no torte on your insurance and these people are driving without licenses, without insurance, and cannot even read signs???????  Let them disable you for life, and when your coverage runs out...see what happens.

Laws are supposed to be to protect people and keep us safe....but there are no laws anymore regarding immigration...

I cannot believe the insult to intelligence and disregard for our welfare on this matter our government has displayed.  If there is another 911, it is because they are already set up in this country...and they are....taking advantage of our system...buying and selling....did you ever ask yourselves about some of the donations you give, or the merchandise you purchase in malls?  Those who are familiar with this problem will know what I'm talking about.

There is a great lack of education in this nation, and all during the election, I was watching each party side step this horrendous problem....it will I fear, be one cause for another civil war one day...and all b/c one man, is in bed with the Mexican President.

Again, if you want to be an American Citizen, all fine and dandy, do so, but do it the right way....don't come over here, set up your make believe chop shops, selling drugs, playing your music with no regard for the neighbors....3 blocks away....wearing your colors to distinguish your gangs and war lords...the bandanahs and such...

Yes, you will see bleeding heart shows and movies for those people who truely and honestly want to become working citizens of the United States...but, they are the minority, not the majority....and in the interim of all this, it's sneaking in right under our noses....and if you don't believe me, walk in the kitchen of any resturant across the US and see for yourself...whose working in the kitchens, being paid under the table and collecting unemployment and refuses to learn the language.

Its our fault, we've given them this opportunity, we've closed our minds to what is real and happening out there, and are guided by TV.  

I was wondering how long after the election, the media would pick up on this.

Believe me, I love people, in all walks of life...but, if I were president, I'd close off all boarders and monitor illegals so much so, that they would most certainly be deported and allowed to return under a redesigned system.  If not, what the heck are our boys doing in another country fighting against terror?????

I tell you true...and with my heart...this is more then a little problem....and we'd better wake up and start speaking out...and the best way to do that is to become aware, ask questions, don't take my word on the matter, talk to people.  

Don't trust the media or the government to do your thinking for you, go beyond and afar, asking many questions and the implications of what is going on....

Rules and laws are not always fair, but there for a reason....and there are so many people in this country illegally, and draining our systems...you would be shocked!

It hasn't hit up north here quit as badly yet, but it will...soon, and I tell you true...you will be in for a rude awakening...when you look around you and/or one of your family members is disregarded b/c of it.  

I cannot immagine why so many people who are living with this are keeping so quiet????

Is it fear of speaking up?  Or is it just plain not wanting to get involved, lack of education...or living in a fantasy world?  Please, help me with this, I'd like to know, how many of you really truely realize the implications of this?  The danger in another attack, which is most probable to be much worse then before...

Are we safer...I think not, not with our boarders wide open?  And the sad part is...all those lives lost already in the fight against terror....what will we tell our boys, when it happens here again?  How will we explain what they were fighting against we are allowing right here in the United States....

We've become way to lazy and concerned with what's in it for us...how much do we get paid...why, I would never think of getting my hands dirty...yes, all in the name of the American Dream, a materialistic world...trendy and advertisements telling us, we need this and that...to fit in...
Not to mention the ironic salaries which everyone feels they deserve?????

Oh Lord, are we in for a big surprise....
God Bless America!

And please understand, there is not an angry tone of voice in my words...but disappointment, fear and reality of what will be, if we don't soon wake up and take responsibility.  

All of us, together as a team...as working citizens of the United States.

I'll get off my soap box now....sorry, but, I loved my aunt.  She was 83 years old, and the doctor said, he'd never seen a woman of her health with such strong bone structure and tight muscles.  She sky dove for her 80th birthday, worked as a nurse in the peace corps, flew a plane when women weren't supposed to do those things, took her solo flight, put herself through college, was a writer and editor...a great lady with a list of accomplishments...and I had to write this, in honor of her....she was an inspiration to many and hopefully her story will surface and be made known publically, so her death will not be in vane.  

Thank you for your patience, and for listening and reading....
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


5 posted 01-06-2005 02:34 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

One more thing I forgot to mention, I did not see the show which Christopher mentions, but, did you also know that all those pregnant Mexican woman come here b/c their children will automatically be born a citizen, making them a citizen to.  Now...tell me, where do they get work?  Anyone who is willing to pay them, less then minimum wage....not to mention...shame on whomever hires these people...shame on you...again...just goes to show you where priorities lie....or lay...all the while encouraging them to be lazy.  

You know, if it wasn't for greed...we'd once again be developing and making our own products in these United States....is anyone out there aware of how utterly weak and vulnerable American really is???

Once we were a great nation...now, I fear we're bullies encouraging violence, sex, drugs....not even able to control or parent our children...
When ever a nation becomes immoral and corrupt, it falls....look back in history...
and again, stop blaming and fight the issue...fight for honesty, fight for decency and for our next generation...it's our problem, yours and mine, and it isn't settled by voting or by belonging to a party...it's about being a working member of the body....without pointing fingers...or counting values....who did this and who did that...and we did more then you or them....
God, we've become so kindergarden, so immature and blind...

Ground Control to Major Tom? (smiles)

I mean no insult to anyone....just perhaps a wake up call...

Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


6 posted 01-06-2005 02:44 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Brad, perhaps I ought to clarify...

"what outside government came to the [financial] aid of the USA after the bombings on 9/11?"

Because if some did, then I did not hear of them.  And my spouse, who is always listening to and/or reading the news, doesn't recall there being any outside financial assistance.  Did we receive letters of concern?  Yes...and were our own poets here just as shocked as we were, sending their prayers and such?  Yes.

But when the USA experiences natural disasters [Florida and the East coast come to mind from 2004] where are the foreign governments in sending aid and relief assistance?

If it happens, we don't hear of it.

The USA is expected to retain the status quo, and take care of itself.  Yet, we keep sending billions of dollars every year to other countries.

And we don't necessarily take care of our own.

Why is that?

[This message has been edited by Sunshine (01-06-2005 04:08 PM).]

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


7 posted 01-06-2005 07:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Lee J, I hate it when you hold back. Open up, girl!!!
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


8 posted 01-06-2005 09:53 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

It's hard to understand what you're asking.

Here's a list of international responses after 911:
http://www.patriotresource.com/wtc/intl/alpha3.html

There were general offers of assistance (I checked Japan, the UK, and France), but I don't know if we received assistance. As I recall, many of these offers were received with, "Thanks, but no thanks."

Um, would you offer financial assistance to Bill Gates or George Soros or Donald Trump if they had a tragedy?
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


9 posted 01-06-2005 10:53 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

it may help to research and understand just what kind of conditions and factors are forcing mexicans to leave their country.

http://www.ratm.com/new2/dvd_transcripts.html  

:is an insightful interview with Noam Chomsky conducted by radical performer Zack de la Rocha, shedding light on the plight of mexicans and south americans.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


10 posted 01-07-2005 01:42 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

“Bush is already signaling that he intends to revive the amnesty/guestworker immigration plan he introduced a year ago — . . .

The president's permissive approach has emboldened senators and mayors (such as New York's Michael Bloomberg) to oppose almost all enforcement actions against illegals. In September 2003, for example, Bloomberg signed an executive order forbidding New York police to share information on immigration offenses with the Immigration Service, except when the illegal broke some other law or was suspected of terrorist activity. And only last month, a House-Senate conference stripped from the intelligence-overhaul bill almost all the border-security measures recommended by the 9/11 commission.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/frum/frum200501060727.asp

Here’s something else I found browsing around:

http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon27.htm


If 2050 is to see a United States in which Hispanics
are the dominant component in the population, I wonder
if it will not be a more “conservative” country, given
that Hispanics are predominantly Roman Catholic, ( I live
among Hispanics; I’ve always lived among immigrants
and or minorities except in Rhode Island where their absence
was something initially eerie).  Also, for the same reason,
I also have my suspicions about the levels of tolerance
compared to those we have now.

I have to admit, as a “DP” ,“Hunkie” immigrant myself,
there’s something interesting about it all.


[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (01-07-2005 02:31 AM).]

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


11 posted 01-07-2005 11:53 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hehehe, Deer, your a saint...

thanks for the giggles
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


12 posted 01-07-2005 12:03 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Brad, that's the kind of information I
couldn't find.  Thanks.  I'll be back...
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


13 posted 01-07-2005 08:29 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



A long time ago, in a social studies class at university,
there was I think a phrase the professor used to summarize
the cultural transition children made from the world
of their immigrant parents, ( whose focus was still toward
the “old country” and its ways), and that of the country
into which they had come.  Does anybody remember that
phrase?  Is it still effective today?  Is the United States
still a melting pot from which, after a generation,
“Americans” emerge?

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


14 posted 01-07-2005 08:40 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think the "Melting Pot" has become more of a "Salad Bowl", John, all the ingredients mixed together but each maintaining its distinct and separate characteristics.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


15 posted 01-07-2005 09:36 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Denise,

Someone once said there could be no United States
without Americans.  Is there, (and will there be),
something in common that unites the disparate
factions with a single identity that can stand
in the face of challenge?

John

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


16 posted 01-07-2005 10:09 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Probably not, John. I don't know how long it will take, but I tend to see this as a part of what will eventually lead to the fall of our country, as we know it.

Didn't a similar situation happen prior to the fall of the Roman Empire: A great unchecked influx of immigrants, a failure to assimilate, an ever-decreasing sense of a common unifying bond, and too few people left in the end that even cared to defend the Empire?

Sounds like the perfect scenario for the establishement of the One World Government.

I can see the handwriting on the wall.

But maybe I'm just paranoid.
Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


17 posted 01-07-2005 11:08 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Some of the main reason for the fall of the Roman Empire was the abolishing of local faiths for Emperor worship, exorbiant taxation, and rampant conscription with little or no pay.  Not to mention that Rome used slaves for everything.  Their entire economy was driven by slaves.  So when slaves revolted, or fled from those countries that were once part of the Roman Empire at the gates, the entire economy went to shambles.

As divisive as America is, there are things which still bring this country together.  4th of July, attacks on our country, and our stance.  Europeans can always spot Americans, irregardless of color, education, or social standing by the way we walk, talk, use body language, and the look in our eyes.  We look in the eyes, conditioned that only the guilty look down or away, and are always ready for a fight.

In fact, Special Ops during WWII in the European Theatre had to be taught how to walk like a European, how to avoid all eye contact, and how to use submissive body langauge.  It was that foreign to us then, and it's that foreign to us now.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


18 posted 01-08-2005 01:03 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Alicat,

As an aside:

“Some of the main reason for the fall of the Roman Empire was the abolishing of local faiths for Emperor worship,”

Christianity?

“and rampant conscription with little or no pay.”

of whom: Romans or others?

“Not to mention that Rome used slaves for everything.  Their entire economy was driven by slaves.  So when slaves revolted, or fled from those countries that were once part of the Roman Empire at the gates, the entire economy went to shambles.”

This I think gives too much credit to Spartacus, (thank you Kirk Douglas).

Around what time would you date the fall of the Roman Empire?

Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


19 posted 01-08-2005 12:02 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

It wasn't just early Christianity where locals were forced to pay homage to Caesar's image and temple.  Christianity, Judahism, Druidism, Pantheism, all through Europe, Britain, North Africa, and the Near Middle East.  And there were slave revolts prior to Spartacus.  If you were born a Roman, you were not a slave but a citizen, unless you really screwed up.  All the slaves came from military conquests.  For conscription, Goths, Vandals, Jutes, Gauls and Teutons were all empressed into military service, which left their home communities and territories vulnerable to outside attack.  They were promised aid and support if such happened.  They were promised good pay and the chance to rise in the ranks and become full Citizens.  Promises were broken time and again.

As for the fall, there's a few dates. 476 when the Western Roman empire fell to successive waves of invasion and the last Emperor was deposed.  One other was during the reign of Diocletian (284-305) when the vast Roman Empire was split into West, based on Rome, and East, based on Byzantium (aka Constantinople, Istanbul).

In the end, however, no single cause led to the fall of the Roman Empire.  Lack of circulating currency, poor leadership, wasteful internal spending, moral decay, no military funding for far-flung provinces, rise of Christianity, communication breakdown between East and West, inciting of 'barbarian' tribes and clans by broken promises and shattered homes.  One reason by itself would not have caused collapse.  Many reasons tend to compound, feed upon each other, and quickly snowball.  After 476, Rome ceased to be a world power, after around 1000 years of the Roman Republic, or 1200 years if you count the Early Roman States.
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


20 posted 01-10-2005 07:53 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I've read all your inputs on this subject, with a rather intense realization, that basically, what your all saying is, whenever a civilization became immoral and corrupt, is when they fell...and although frightening, I can't help but stand by all your sides on this...it is and will be, inevidable....

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


21 posted 01-20-2005 12:05 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

“The FBI wants to question four Chinese nationals amid fears of a plot to explode a "dirty bomb" in Boston. . .

Earlier, CNN reported that the group were smuggled over the border from Mexico and planned to receive some unspecified dangerous materials. “

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4190159.stm


Eventually, if not now, there will be a confrontation between
security and sensitivity as regards the border with Mexico.


 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Camp of the Saints Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors