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Passions in Poetry

Tsunami: Political Issue?

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Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


150 posted 01-11-2005 07:40 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
So we support the policies you disapprove of because the majority of us who agree with our government's policies is afraid, ignorant, complacent and confused?


No. Sigh, the dangers of generalization. I'm trying to avoid it, and you're trying to pin me to it.

There are, of course, a wide variety of factors to consider. As I don't have unlimited time to spend online or on discussions, I have to limit myself to offering examples. Fear, complacency, ignorance and confusion are some, not all, of the reasons one might support policies that are hurting world opinion.

You fail to understand that I've never claimed the tactics I abhore, are exclusive to the US. When you've accused me in the past I've given examples of other nations actions and have stated that we shouldn't be repeating those same mistakes. And when Huan Yi's commented that 'Every power meddles for the sake of its own interests.' did you see me disagree?

What bothers me, the reason I'm constantly at odds with some, is the ease in which criticism of foreign policy flows from fingers. Yet when stating examples of similar actions, or offering examples of why nations are at odd with the US, it's immediately considered anti-Americanism.

But the government of a nation, and the people of a nation are two different things. I don't think you honestly believe that every facet of government policy is directly tied to voters. You don't vote on assissinations, arms deals, secret coups and regime changes. And I don't think you honestly believe that all these actions have noble intent.

These are the policies that have angered and created current critics and enemies. These are the policies I'm asking you to educate yourselves on and consider, while youre passing blame outward. It's not in contempt for Americans, but in concern for them. I live beside em, and happen to know alot of them..

What further agrivates me is that you think I'm in total agreement with/or justifying actions against the US, I don't. I'm speaking of, doing some small part to educate people who wouldn't otherwise know, things in the hopes that they don't repeat themselves or further escalate existing problems.

People should know WHY things are what they are, it's not as simplistic as jealousy, fanaticism etc. There are also valid reasons, things being repeated under the current administration, that will ensure a cycle of criticism and even hatred will continue.

Why is this wrong?
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


151 posted 01-11-2005 07:58 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Raphael,

“it's not as simplistic as jealousy, fanaticism etc.”

But it well could be.

Man has a voracious expecting appetite for satisfaction
and an equal capacity for finding blame when his desires
are not met or quenched; religions and philosophies have
recognized this for thousands of years.  The check and balance
system of the government of the United States is based on the
founding fathers’ mistrust of human nature.

I am simply not convinced the United States or anyone else
could do enough, including a second crucifixion, to finally
bring universal content.

The history of the United States has its blemishes, (with
other histories as precedent and guide, how could it not),
and yet for all its current power it has shown commendable
restraint and concern for its actions.  And I think the world
at large is more concerned with the humanity of others by
virtue of the United States’ however blemished example and
influence.  I think that is something to be noted and derive
hope from.

  

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


152 posted 01-11-2005 08:15 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
But it well could be.


But it's not.


quote:
I am simply not convinced the United States or anyone else
could do enough, including a second crucifixion, to finally
bring universal content.


Agreed, but why add to the discontent?

quote:
And I think the world
at large is more concerned with the humanity of others by
virtue of the United States’ however blemished example and
influence.  I think that is something to be noted and derive
hope from.


Agreed again, I've never denied all that is right with the US and their ideals. But we also know that every ideal, every nation, and every person has a negative aspect. That aspect should be explored and understood, not ignored, otherwise what growth is there? We learn from our mistakes, or at least, we're supposed to.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


153 posted 01-11-2005 10:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, I really don't understand why you speak of what I am trying to "pin" to you, why I aggravate you, and other digs when I told you I apologized and asked a question in a respectful way with no rancor involved. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful or antagonistic. I simply asked a question in what I felt was a respectful way.

I'm not blaming Americans for being confused, especially after a horrible attack on their own soil. I'm blaming the government who would exploit that fear, or exploit their ignorance of certain areas of the world(Middle East affairs)

That was the comment of yours I based my question on. I didn't misrepresent it in any way and simply asked my question based on it with no "pinning" involved. I believe my question was civil.

Why are nations at odds with the US? As you said...

the government of a nation, and the people of a nation are two different things

I do not believe that the people of nations are against the US, except in some cases where their governments have influenced them. I've lived in enough countries to be able to have this opinion. Some governments? Oh, yes but I doubt that their opposition is based on assassinations, secret coups and arms deals. The Israel question has some effect for sure. The oil for food and how the US killed the cash cow has also had an effect. The war in Iraq has had an effect although the 30-odd countries who participated have not seemed to suffer from it. I've heard no one protest agains Austrailia, who has been an excellent ally. Has the US meddled in other country's affairs? Undoubtably....some good and some bad. Im just glad I'm not one of the behind-the-scenes people who try to keep the world on an even keel. I don't even want to know about it....just keep the earth in one piece.

I have a question. I believe you are not old enough to have gone through the Cuban blockade but, if you had been around, what would you have said about it? Would you have criticized Kennedy for interfering with Cuba's rights or would you have applauded the fact that the US government stepped in to take such action? Just curious.....
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


154 posted 01-11-2005 11:02 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

For anyone interested in the true history of the Palestinian issue, I again recommend the book "From Time Immemorial: Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict" by a research historian, Joan Peters. It's available on Amazon. It's a real eye-opener and handily dispels all the revisionist history and propaganda put forth by Arafat and his peers that is pervasive today about the situation.

Go ahead, I dare ya!
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


155 posted 01-11-2005 11:23 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Raphael,

“Agreed, but why add to the discontent?”

One can add to the discontent by doing anything,
something, or nothing.  Whatever, there will be those
who find more injury.

I know a few who could swim through a sea of corpses
only to tell me of how hard their personal lives are
and who is to blame.

I would sooner be able to change the Earth’s rotation
that convince some they might be mistaken.

At some point, one just says enough
and goes off to live his own life in peace.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


156 posted 01-11-2005 11:42 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

If you're being genuine and I've jumped the gun, than I sincerely apologize. But no offense, you've apologized before and yet here we are at it again in this thread.

Consider the rest of the response an explanation of my position, which will hopefully ensure that that a misunderstanding/label won't occur again.

quote:
Oh, yes but I doubt that their opposition is based on assassinations, secret coups and arms deals.


again. merely examples. not all, some. and if not directly than to their after effects.

quote:
The oil for food and how the US killed the cash cow has also had an effect.


there's the finger pointing, should i call that anti-european sentiment? we've discussed this in other threads and i offered examples of US companies like halliburton, skirting around US sanctions and playing benifiting from the the oil for food program. if there's contempt for the european nations who exploited the deal why not for halliburton and those in charge..like oh, say dick cheney. and if you do agree with that, how do you then resolve the ethical dilema of an adminstration handing over no-bid contracts to companies like this, comapnies who supported and benifited from the enemy you're fighting?

As for Australia and other allies, nothing has happened to them..yet. But don't underestimate them or other allies, including canadians(shhhh we're in afghanistan and have some soldiers in iraq on exchange missions), as potential targets if it continues to escalate.
as for the cuban blockade, are you speaking of the embargo itself imposed in 1960 or the cuban missle crisis? both are linked of course. if i may, i'd like to offer a little background for any who might not know what the hell we're talking about now as well as offer my opinion.

the initial reason for the embargo, and what led to many US led coups in south america, was the socialist expropriation of land from foreign owners(mostly american) and back to its people. a noble ideal. but as in guatemala, the US rejected offers of compensation for the land. I think it was cost plus 5%. Not exactly sure.

After talks broke down Eisenhower proposed the embargo in 1960. Big mistake. Add to that the failed Bay Of Pigs attack and Kennedy's expansion of the embargo in 1963 and what was Castro to do? The embargo and restrictions led him to seek help elsewhere, and the USSR swept in. Now instead of having a socialist government to contend with, they adapted the soviet system and you now had a communist government instead. and right in your backyard.

As for the Cuban missle crisis? The Russians, recognizing an opportunity to get closer to US targets, shipped missles to Cuba. Legally they had the right to do so as the US had been placing missles across Europe and as close as Turkey. So who was at fault here? Russia was simply responding to what the US had done in Turkey, a desperate Cuba, due to the severe embargo, offered them the opportunity.

shrugs. that's the history and cause of the situation, that said, seeing as canada would have been right in line with those attacks as a close US ally. i thank Kennedy for getting them the hell away from here. but, im also critical for creating that situation. the embargo undermined their socialist plan and forced Cuba right into the hands of the USSR. A monster created by policy.

recap..no to embargo, but thanks for the getting rid of the nukes
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


157 posted 01-11-2005 11:49 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Denise i hope you don't for a second think i believe in the propganada or condone the methods of Arafat. The articles I offered are by Israeli/Jewish writers who have lived through and understand both sides to the conflict. Psst Ariel Sharon, he's not a peacenik, read about his past and tell me he's not on par with Arafat if not worse.

John

it's vital that we understand and learn from the situations we're in, otherwise what hope is their for change?

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (01-12-2005 12:48 AM).]

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


158 posted 01-12-2005 12:04 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

"there's the finger pointing, should i call that anti-european sentiment? "

No, but you may call it anti-French sentiment, which I will confess to readily. One may change the subject by pointing a finger at Haliburton but that doesn't make either side right. Curious thing is that I saw no derrogatory remarks aimed at Haliburton when Clinton awarded them two no-bid contracts but only when Bush did. But, as you point out, that's been hashed around on other threads.

I'll second John's comment and leave it at that..
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


159 posted 01-12-2005 12:47 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Can't argue in favour of everything Clinton did. i don't like Clinton as much as you think I do. What i can say, is that i know that under his administration Halliburton and/or their subsidiary deal(s) were blocked due to direct conflicts with Oil-for-Food program regulations. shrugs.
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


160 posted 01-12-2005 09:21 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Not at all, Raph. Your comments on the Arab-Israeli problem just brought that book back to mind again and I highly recommend it for anyone wishing to get the true complete picture of the origins of the conflict.
 
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