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Passions in Poetry

Tsunami: Political Issue?

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Huan Yi
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125 posted 01-10-2005 09:36 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Brad,


The Russian Japanese War was engaged in
by two countries led by Nicholas II, absolute emperor of Russia,
and Emperor Mutsuhito, the first powerful Japanese emperor
in centuries.

World War I began when Emperor Francis Joseph’s Austria attacked
Serbia, and Kaiser Wilhelm’s Germany declared war on Nicholas II’s
Russia, (which was threatening to intervene), which had an alliance with
France which in turn had an alliance with Britain as regards Belgium
which the Germans invaded on their way to Paris.


  I let others, if they care, address the other examples you offered,
(I think Persia trying to invade Greece may had something to do
with Athens), but World War I and to a lesser extent The Russian
Japanese War have been of interest to me.


Alicat
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Coastal Texas


126 posted 01-10-2005 09:54 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

WWI started to a failed alliance system after Franz Ferdinand was assassinated by a Serb. (I could have mixed the nationality. Serb or Croat).  The ending primary players got pulled into that mess by alliances, and Germany ended up being mostly blamed for the entire thing.  Austria was disciplined a bit, with the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.  None of the instigating countries were brought to task.  And it was Germany's humiliation and bankrupcy from other European countries which led to the rise of National Socialism (Nazi) and Adolph Hitler.  Europe has always engaged in ways and means to decrease the power of opponents while bringing more benefit to themselves and increasing their holdings.  It's been that way for many centuries.  WWII was their comeuppance.

And before you start, Huan, I intensily abhor what the Germans did to the Jews, Poles, Slavs, captives and dissidents.  I've walked through Stutthoff where the memorial resides, right outside Gdansk and Sopot, and have walked through Krakow with its rebuilt red brick walls by the statue of a small child dressing in oversized Nazi BDU's.
Aenimal
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127 posted 01-10-2005 11:48 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Europe has always engaged in ways and means to decrease the power of opponents while bringing more benefit to themselves and increasing their holdings.  It's been that way for many centuries.  WWII was their comeuppance.


i'm not trying to start anything, but if one can say this, i'm curious if it's fair to say that americans are now recieving their comeuppance, both with global criticism and physical attacks, for similar policy?
Huan Yi
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128 posted 01-11-2005 12:15 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Alicat,

“And before you start, Huan”

Why should I start?  In my opinion  Serbia should have
been held to account, (it was its chief of Army intelligence
who led and provided to the Black Hand group that carried
out the assassination).  But Kaiser Wilhelm was very bellicose
in his support, knowing full well his relative, (a cousin I think),
would be pressured in Russia to step in.  In the end Wilhelm
lost his job, the successor to Francis Joseph as well, and Nicholas
his life, (along with his entire family).  And yes, the Allied treatment,
led by the French, created an environment that made Hitler possible.


As an aside when Nicholas was visiting Japan as a young man,
there was an assassination attempt on his life, (he suffered a
head wound from the glancing sword that gave him headaches
ever after).  The author of the account I read offered no clear reason
as to why the attempt occurred, speculating there had been some
slight of etiquette to which the assailant had taken offence.  It’s believed
this experience, (profoundly apologized for; in fact it was another Japanese
who saved him from being sushi), darkened Nicholas’s attitude
toward the Japanese and thereby made him susceptible to maneuvers
that led to the their war.  However, in looking for confirmation of
the Japanese emperor’s name I came across:

“Nicholas hated the Japanese; as a young man, he had visited Japan. Drunk one night, he urinated in a Shinto temple. The Japanese policeman who found him watering the ancestors beat the prince savagely. Nicholas escaped with his life, but with his dignity sorely affronted.”

http://www.avalanchepress.com/game1904_05.html

So maybe it was all a matter of a tingle.


[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (01-11-2005 12:51 AM).]

Balladeer
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129 posted 01-11-2005 12:39 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Obviously you feel it's safe to say, Raph, or you would not have manufactured the question. I'm not surprised..

I suppose you are right. The United States is getting its just desserts for all of the evil it has done in the world. We deserve to have our cities attacked and to have the world hate us. We don't do anything positive to aid any fellow countries and we are only concerned with conquest and political gain. The world would be a much better place without us.

Satisfied?
Huan Yi
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Waukegan


130 posted 01-11-2005 12:59 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ralph, (?)

The animosity the Arab world has for us is directly linked to our
continued support to and for the existence of the state of Israel.
And, in my opinion, some part of European animosity can be
attributed to that as well, (it is muted, but anti-Semitism is still
alive on the Continent).

If it sold ovens to Arabs instead of arms to the Israelis the
United States would be much more popular in the region, and
other places as well.
Aenimal
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131 posted 01-11-2005 01:09 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

'deer' I'd be offended by those comments if they were from any other source but xenophobia rears its head again. As a non-American voicing opinions on American policy,(not American people or the nation itself) you've wrongfully labelled me Anti-American. again. But if I were American I suspect you'd still pose labels..red? commie? leftist? pinko?

You know NOTHING of me or my intentions. Most often because you're too busy attacking to actually read anyone else's comments. I post on a predominately American board, amongst American friends. Feel free to label though, it's much easier than discourse or learning where i'm coming from.

It wasn't posed to undermine Alicat or the States. I respect Alicat, he's able to maintain a discussion.

What i i'm calling into question is the use of the term 'comeuppance', the term, for me, carries a sentiment of justification or getting what they 'deserved'.

the question is if one can look at europe in that light, how does it differ from the current world view of american policy. are either correct?

Aenimal
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132 posted 01-11-2005 01:15 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Huan? Raph short for Raphael.  

The critique I speak of goes beyond the Arab/Israel world or the current war. As an aside i think it's simplistic to view it simply in terms of anti-semetic. There are legitamate reasons to question support of Israel especially with regards to Palestine. But that's another discussion. Back to the topic.

I'm talking about certain American policies like regime changes, coups and skirmishes including for example South America. Alicat stated "ways and means to decrease the power of opponents while bringing more benefit to themselves and increasing their holdings", one could argue that's exactly what the US has done in Mexico and South America.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


133 posted 01-11-2005 01:26 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Aenimal,

I suspect he might call you a Bradshevik!



Aenimal
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134 posted 01-11-2005 01:33 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

lol dah comrade
Balladeer
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135 posted 01-11-2005 01:36 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You're right, Raph. I know nothing about you except for the words you write on this site. THAT is exactly what I was responding to...there was nothing in my comment about you personally, unlike your reply to me but that's ok.
Aenimal
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136 posted 01-11-2005 01:50 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

what i write? if i say i don't like strawberries, does that mean i'm anti-fruit? i don't cauliflower, does that make me anti-vegetable? do you see what i'm getting at?

Of course.. a label like Anti-American, your assumptions and the way you spoke to me('i'm not surprised') aren't personal at all.

classic deer. how do you attack me and yet always leave our exchanges as the 'victim.'

Huan Yi
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Posts 6334
Waukegan


137 posted 01-11-2005 01:55 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Raphael,

“As an aside i think it's simplistic to view it simply in terms of anti-semetic. There are legitamate reasons to question support of Israel especially with regards to Palestine.”

Yes, there are reasons, but if all others went away, the existence of a Jewish
state of Israel in that part of the world and the United States support thereof
would make any change  in attitude only temporary.  Much of the Arab world is simplistic in its animosity and the reason for it.  


“I'm talking about certain American policies like regime changes, coups and skirmishes including for example South America”

I might accept that if the U.S. had been attacked by for example Bolivians,
(Colombians associated with the drug trade have good reason).  I think
an equal case can be made for resentment because of the United State’s
success and wealth; it very capacity for charity could be a source for rancor.
The have nots hating the haves for having.


As to Mexico,  Santa Anna, fought and lost a war.
Afterward, after the American Civil War, it was United
States pressure that ended the European enthusiasm for
their attempt to rule Mexico. Britain lost the colonies, but
they’ve gotten over it.  And please note that though everyone
acknowledges the issue and the related problems with illegal
immigration across the border, there is no American political
support for building a wall along the Rio Grande, or hunting and
sending back those Mexicans who managed to get North;
I think that’s because more so in Americans now than in most there is
a certain level of  decency that cringes at such acts.  Further note, those
attacking the United States were and are not from Mexico City.
Aenimal
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138 posted 01-11-2005 02:11 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Huan I agree with the statement that were there no other reasons, anti-semeticism would still be there. But it's important not to forget Zionism, their views, their actions are a major blockade to peace. Often simply critquing Israel is considered anti-semetic.

read Jews for Justice in the Middle East: http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

Michael Neumann's work
http://members.tripod.com/~mneumann/mnisrael.htm

and Uri Avenry's commentary


getting back to topic,

quote:

I might accept that if the U.S. had been attacked by for example Bolivians,
(Colombians associated with the drug trade have good reason).  I think
an equal case can be made for resentment because of the United State’s
success and wealth; it very capacity for charity could be a source for rancor.
The have nots hating the haves for having.


first it goes beyond physical attacks, I also meant critique and sentiment towards US policy. And it's not a simple case of "Have nots hating the Haves"..read up on the history of the area, who owns the land and how they attained it. start with the 1954 Guatemalan coup for example. there's a history of meddling and exploitation..
Huan Yi
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Posts 6334
Waukegan


139 posted 01-11-2005 02:32 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Raphael,

“Our position, however, is that the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes - on both sides - inevitably follow from this original injustice.”

I need go no further.   However it is characterized, (injustice, etc.), I agree
that the event of the creation of the state of Israel, (and where),
is the original and continuing source for animosity.  But what do you do
with it now and the people who live there?

Every power meddles for the sake of its own interests.  The Soviet Union
actively and aggressively meddled seeking to bring communist regimes
into power in both Central and South America for itself and as fronts
against their democratic enemy to the North.   As far as “exploitation”,
what do you mean?  Companies going down and exploiting resources for profit;
someone in power invited and welcomed them in, and I don’t think it was
like the Spanish stripping gold from the walls and bodies.

Given their internal problems, I would hardly expect
any in Central or South America to look at the United
States with adulation.  Africa holds the United States
blameworthy for Africa’s AIDS issue, because in its mind
the United States is not doing enough to solve a problem
the United States had little or nothing to do in
creating.

As an aside, South and Central America are Roman Catholic
and in Roman Catholicism a rich country not doing every thing
it can and more to aid poor countries is a sinning country. Even
if you are not personally religious it is part of the atmosphere
and the idiom of consciousness.

And some people will never be satisfied.  Never.    


[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (01-11-2005 03:07 AM).]

Aenimal
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140 posted 01-11-2005 03:00 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
I need go no further.


That's the problem, maybe you should. And the media should. It goes beyond the creation of the state of Israel. The problem begins with aggressive Zionism as early as the 1800's. too many in the west are missing the palestinean angle.

quote:
But what do you do
with it now and the people who live there?


how can you deal with the people unless you know ALL there is to know about the situation and the various grievances. a key point that the west is missing in all this.

quote:
Every power meddles for the sake of its own interests.


Agreed. therefore going back to the question i posed. If one can say that Europe recieved it's comeuppance for its policies against countries like Germany, then is it fair to use the same idea regarding US policy? Or neither?
Huan Yi
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141 posted 01-11-2005 03:12 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Raphael,


“how can you deal with the people unless you know ALL there is to know about the situation and the various grievances. a key point that the west is missing in all this.”

Save us some time. What is recommended be done with the Jewish state
of Israel and it’s citizens now ?


“If one can say that Europe recieved it's comeuppance for its policies against countries like Germany, then is it fair to use the same idea regarding US policy? Or neither?”

Those are questions for Alicat to answer; he said it.  I didn’t.

Aenimal
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142 posted 01-11-2005 03:31 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Save us some time. What is recommended be done with the Jewish state
of Israel and it’s citizens now ?


lemme just look in my big book of answers to life's problems..lol Sorry Huan, don't have all the answers. i believe truth and accountability should play a factor in the Israelie/Palestinean conflict. It isn't, and a large part of it is do to revisionist history and slanted western media coverage..shrugs

Aenimal
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143 posted 01-11-2005 03:37 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

going back to South America, read up on the affects of early US backed coups and why they happened(reasons aren't always political). Then read up on the affects NAFTA has had on South America. Is the US solely to blame for what plagues these countries? Of course not. That's a simplistic view, one I don't harbour. But the root of backlash and criticism is more than jealousy, and that's something that people should understand.

i also have to disagree with your comments regarding roman catholicism being an overriding factor in that criticism.  
Balladeer
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144 posted 01-11-2005 10:37 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ok, Raph, if my words offended you, consider this an apology. I, for example, don't like cauliflower, either. There is a question I would like for you to expand on, however, and I submit it respectfully..

As a non-American voicing opinions on American policy,(not American people or the nation itself) you've wrongfully labelled me Anti-American.

Since our leaders determine American policy and since we elect our leaders and since polls show the majority of Americans support those policies, then is what you are saying is that you like Americans but only those who share your viewpoints? From the examples you have given, policy that you don't agree with goes back for a heck of a lot of years. Are there any of our policies that you DO agree with? I don;t think it's that easy to separate the nation from it's policies when the majority of the nation supports them.

Just curious - and without insults..
Alicat
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145 posted 01-11-2005 10:59 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Don't you people ever sleep?!  Sheesh, this thread was busy and WAAAAY off topic last night, and that's ok.

Huan, my 'before you start' thingy was put there just in case you misread my comments regarding Germany as pro-Nazi, anti-Semitic.  Seeing how this has been done in other threads, I felt my fears justified.

The 'comeuppance' part bothers me as well, so no need to get all bent out of shape.  It's that blasted thing of mine where I can see and argue all sides of an issue.  It can be a right bugger at times.  In many ways, the US is having their comeuppance, and I do NOT include 9/11 in that, though some do.  Centuries of protectionism, treaties, broken promises, dirty deals and shifty negotiations, such as getting proprietary rights to sugar cane plantations for a handful of pretty beads and some steel axe heads.  That's part of responsibility and consequences, and we, as a nation, are having to deal with the sins of our fathers, as a figure of speech, just as every nation has to, including their citizens.  Is the US getting their comeuppance?  Yes.  Are we helping others despite that?  Yes.

There are times when I'd like nothing more than for all the old protectionistic trade contracts dating back to the 1830's to be shredded and used to make pinatas.  Start fresh with a fairer discussion table.
Aenimal
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146 posted 01-11-2005 02:55 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Deer most of the policies I speak of, past and present, aren't even made public until long after the fact. (That's the beauty of the Freedom of Information Act.) Many of the monsters being fought are the result of those policies. If we don't learn from the past we're doomed to repeat those mistakes, and whether you agree with me or not, that's what's happening today.

It's true many support these policies, but not always for the right reasons. Fear, ignorance and complacency are godsends for governments seeking public support for policy. And that's not an American trait, it's a human trait. I'm not blaming Americans for being confused, especially after a horrible attack on their own soil. I'm blaming the government who would exploit that fear, or exploit their ignorance of certain areas of the world(Middle East affairs)
Aenimal
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147 posted 01-11-2005 02:56 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Thanks Alicat, like i said it was never intended as an attack, just a question of the word comeuppance.
Balladeer
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148 posted 01-11-2005 03:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So we support the policies you disapprove of because the majority of us who agree with our government's policies is afraid, ignorant, complacent and confused? I'll have to think on that one...it's confusing...

Thanks for responding.
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149 posted 01-11-2005 03:19 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

BTW, when I refer to you using the word ignorant I realize you do not mean it in the insulting way, rather a lack of knowledge of particular subjects.
 
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