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Tsunami: Political Issue?

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Mistletoe Angel
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25 posted 12-30-2004 04:26 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Tim, I don't get it. Are you accusing me of being among the minority who is stingy and interested solely in the petty politics than the disaster itself, either because $40 sounds like a stingy contribution or because I happen to lean blue and live in a blue state?

I don't know what the mean minimum wage salery is, but I'll have you know I currently am unemployed, and that $40 I contributed is over two-thirds of the Christmas money I received from my relatives. Believe me, if I had a job right now, I'd give even more. And I wish I could give more.

It strikes me as sarcasm when you say, after noting out how charitable statistics, that you change the tone to "fortunately..." then go day to night with following up with "only a very small minority" is interested in the politics.

Personally, I am proud of what I've contributed, and am only attempting to help by offering my support while also noting out the obsession with military spending in relation to all other things and the need to embrace science. Those aren't petty politics, it's exactly what's going on.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Tim
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26 posted 12-30-2004 04:39 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

the comment was not directed towards you Noah and dealt with another point, if you feel a sense of satisfaction from your giving, then good for you.
Brad
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27 posted 12-30-2004 04:48 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
foreign aid and disaster relief are not synonymous terms.


Exactly my point.  One is preventative, the other is reactive. Which one is better?

quote:
The U.S. government provides over fifty per cent of the funding for the World Food Program, a third of the funding for the U.N. refugee program and oever 25 per cent of the funding for the peace keeping operations along with 20 per cent of the entire U.N. budget.


Now, why is that?

quote:
Christian charities, foundations and private individuals from the U.S. give 34 billion a year to foreign causes.  That is over ten times the budget of the U.N.


Not disputing this. Though if the UN Budget is 3.4 billion, you'd think the government would actually pay the dues it owes, don't you think?

quote:
Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of the world is rallying to support the suffering of this unthinkable tragedy of epic proportions and only a very small minority is engaging in as indicated petty politics.


Yes, but how much money would we free up if we scrapped SDI? That's political and, forgive me, but I don't think it's petty.

quote:
interestingly enough, Massachusetts is at the bottom of charitable giving while Mississippi always ranks first.  The blue states make up the bottom rung in per capita giving while the red states make up the top tier.  (ack, interjecting petty politics here, sorry)


That's okay. Hmmm, blue states also pay more to the federal government than they receive, red states pay less than they receive. Maybe we should stop income redistribution and send the money to other countries.

Balladeer
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28 posted 12-30-2004 06:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If we scrapped sdi? India has a nuclear arms program and no tsunami warning program...whose fault is that?

Noah, thank you for letting me know that Bush is responsible for all of the natural disasters we go through because scientists are being suppressed. Perhaps if Clinton were still in office, there would have been no hurricanes in Florida and no earthquake in Asia..it's all W's fault.

This whole finger-pointing scenario is insulting to the victims of this tragedy.

...and, yes, Massachussetts IS at the bottom of the states in charitable giving and many of the eastern states keep it company there. They talk a good game about giving and sacrifice - but they refer to YOUR giving and sacrifice, not theirs....typical.
Balladeer
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29 posted 12-30-2004 07:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I read the article you gave from the Center For American Progress, Noah. Here are the stories they have run for the past month..
    *
      Administration Releases Bogus Report on Re-Importation, December 22, 2004
    *
      Bush Blocks Progress on Global Warming, December 21, 2004
    *
      Rumsfeld Dishonors Fallen Soldiers, December 20, 2004
    *
      Conservatives Bilk Public on Medicare, Cash In With Drug Industry, December 16, 2004
    *
      White House Crony Convention, December 15, 2004
    *
      President Prepares to Slash Medicaid, December 14, 2004
    *
      Troops Pay Price for Administration’s Incompetence, December 13, 2004
    *
      Kerik’s Spotty Record, December 10, 2004
    *
      Rumsfeld Takes It On the Chin From The Troops, December 9, 2004
    *
      Conservatives Leave Americans Out in the Cold, December 8, 2004
    *
      After Blocking Intel Reform, House Rushes to Pass Bill with No Scrutiny, December 7, 2004
    *
      Thompson Cashes In on Health Care, December 6, 2004
    *
      Bush Administration's Approach to Muslim World Incoherent and Counterproductive, December 3, 2004
    *
      DeLay's Unethical Behavior Grows, December 2, 2004
    *
      Wal-Mart Harms American Workers, December 1, 2004


It's easy to find a liberal, anti-Bush organization and quote their work as gospel as you have done twice in this thread. Why not try to find some unbiased sources, if possible. It would make your, and their, accusations a little more believable.
Huan Yi
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30 posted 12-30-2004 07:33 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Tim,

“if you feel a sense of satisfaction from your giving, then good for you.”

I remember reading an article decades ago that asserted that more
often than not charity was an egoistic, even egotistic, rather than altruistic act.
Brad
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31 posted 12-30-2004 07:38 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Actually, the generosity index also includes things like church donations and tithing and those, at least according to beliefnet, are hard to find statistics for.

And we already knew that Southern and Midwestern states tend to be more religious. Apparently, also according to beliefnet, African American churches receive more than other churches.

This isn't to criticize giving or even giving to a church. It is intended to point out that throwing out that statistic is, well, stating the obvious.

----------------

You're worried about India?

Ah, it's the potential argument again. Sure, they're not a threat now, but someday, somewhere, they might be.

Problem is that SDI doesn't work so even that argument fails.
Balladeer
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32 posted 12-30-2004 07:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sure it is, John. One derives personal pleasure from charitable acts, as it should be. Everyone wins - the donor for the sense of well-being from giving and the receipient of such charity.
Balladeer
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33 posted 12-30-2004 07:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You missed my point, Brad - what a surprise. No, I'm not worried about India as a nuclear power. What I referred to was that if they could donate their brainpower and resources for a nuclear arms program why couldn't they donate some of the same for a disaster prevention program? Doesn't seem to me, expecially right now, they had their priorities in order.


You think that statistic is obvious? Ask 100 people which state gives more in charity - Mississippi or Massachussets - and see how many get it right. You want a little example...check out Kerry's charitable donations for the past 20 years, LOL!
Brad
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34 posted 12-30-2004 08:12 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

No, you changed the subject, I tried to change it back. I suggested the idea first, remember?

SDI doesn't work, SDI doesn't work, SDI doesn't work.

Hmmm, how about using the money to research better construction techniques for Florida?

If asked who gives more money than it receives, Massachusettes or Mississippi, the correct answer is Massachusettes.

If asked which group of people give more money to churches, the correct answer would be Mississippi.


Huan Yi
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35 posted 12-30-2004 08:28 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Brad,

“SDI doesn't work, SDI doesn't work, SDI doesn't work.”

Yet.

And with governments like in North Korea, (which has already test
flown one of its missiles over Japan, while letting three million of its
own people starve to death), and in Iran, (which is working on a missile
that can reach beyond its primary target, Israel), there is a readily
perceivable need.
Huan Yi
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36 posted 12-30-2004 08:44 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


India Turns Its Back on Outside Help

‘"If and when we need their help, we will inform them," Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said Thursday, noting that U.S. President George W. Bush had called with the offer.’


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142950,00.html


Seems Bush can’t do anything right.

P.S.

U.S. Companies Give Millions in Aid

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142966,00.html

Mistletoe Angel
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37 posted 12-30-2004 09:11 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Balladeer, believe me, I really would like to provide non-unilateral sources as much as I can, I believe we'd all like this sort of relief.

And I'd be happy to do so the same time some here stop quoting Fox News as the source behind their side of the story. I'm tempted to believe when that happens, in providing one biased half of the story, I must provide the other biased half.

I've seen an accelerating amount of unilateral citations (particularly from Huan Yi) here, from Fox News especially, and because I believe in the freedom of speech and such, and surely Fox news is a voice and resource in itself, the fact Fox News is even a resource here is not what bothers me. What bothers me is while this happens, and seems to be tolerated, my polar opposite resources I provide are charged at, and that's the problem in my mind.

But I'll be making the effort in the new year, and I hope on the other end that's also done likewise.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Balladeer
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38 posted 12-30-2004 09:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

.
Balladeer
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39 posted 12-30-2004 09:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

State      Having Giving Relation G.I
----------------------------------------------
Mississippi 50 5 45 1
Arkansas 47 6 41 2
Oklahoma 43 8 35 3
Louisiana 42 10 32 4
Alabama 38 7 31 5
Tennessee 34 3 31 6
South Dakota 44 14 30 7
Utah 31 2 29 8
South Carolina 40 12 28 9
Idaho 41 20 21 10
Wyoming 21 1 20 11
Texas 23 4 19 12
West Virginia 48 31 17 13
Nebraska 35 19 16 14
North Dakota 46 30 16 15
North Carolina 27 15 12 16
Kansas 25 18 7 17
Florida 20 13 7 18
Georgia 17 11 6 19
Kentucky 39 33 6 20
Montana 49 43 6 21
Missouri 29 24 5 22
New Mexico 45 40 5 23
Alaska 24 21 3 24
Indiana 28 29 -1 25
New York 5 9 -4 26
Iowa 36 44 -8 27
Ohio 32 42 -10 28
California 6 17 -11 29
Maryland 4 16 -12 30
Illinois 10 22 -12 31
Maine 37 50 -13 32
Delaware 13 27 -14 33
Washington 11 25 -14 34
Vermont 33 47 -14 35
Oregon 26 41 -15 36
Hawaii 30 45 -15 37
Virginia 7 23 -16 38
Arizona 22 38 -16 39
Nevada 14 32 -18 40
Pennsylvania 18 36 -18 41
Michigan 16 35 -19 42
Colorado 8 28 -20 43
Connecticut 1 26 -25 44
Minnesota 12 37 -25 45
Wisconsin 19 46 -27 46
New Jersey 2 34 -32 47
Rhode Island 15 49 -34 48
Massachusetts 3 39 -36 49
New Hampshire 9 48 -39 50


Don't mean to make you dizzy, Brad, but I couldn't reproduce this with all the columns in order. This is the Official 2004 State Generosity Ranking bystate.

The first number is the ranking of the state in average income. The second is the state ranking of percentage of charitable contributions. The third is the difference between the two and the fourth is their  national generosity ranking.

For example, Massachussetts (and I apologize to them since I called them the lowest when actually New Hampshire holds the 50th position) has the third highest ranking for income received, the 39th ranking in charitable contributions which gives it the 49th ranking among the states. This involves ALL charitable contributions...
Mistletoe Angel
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40 posted 12-30-2004 09:50 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



I just don't get it.

You all lash out at me and shake your heads because I even had the thought of starting this thread and making this tsunami disaster a political topic, which indeed I can see how my bold opinions could arouse such strong, fervent reactions.

Yet now you yourselves decide to hammer in the generosity index of the fifty states and seem to make the bold insinuation that Red states and Republicans are all Good Samaritans and meal tickets and all Blue states and Democrats/liberals are cheapskates and skinflints!

Balladeer, Tim, you were criticizing me for making this topic politically-toned and to look at this disaster of epic proportions in a positive force. You also told me to keep politics out of this, please. Now, you yourselves are doing just what you begged me not to do, in that while you can perceive my input as just another Bush-bashing opportunity, now you are turning the topic into a liberal or Blue-state bashing opportunity.

I don't know how valid that index is, but in any case I now ask you what you told me. Can we keep these type of red-blue politics out of this? And I can reason with how I may have aroused this type of reaction, but surely this is in no way helpful either.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Midnitesun
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41 posted 12-30-2004 10:06 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

This is becoming a very sad thread. I don't even want to add anything to it, except to say, it always amazes me how those who accuse the poster of politicizing a topic seem determined to polarize it to the maximum.
Bush appeared to be not only a few days late, but dollars short of many others with smaller pockets. Did that surprise me? Not at all. But why is it even an issue as to who gives or gets the most/least?
We as Americans, prove ourselves time and again to be very generous, to be giving, and this isn't the time to slap anyone around for what they did or did not give.
Please, move forward...there is far too much work to be done by all of us to help heal the worldwide troubles of this planet.
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42 posted 12-30-2004 10:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Noah, I apologize but I asked you not to make it political and then you went into Bush destroying the environment and Bush terrorizing scientists and stem cell research and global warming and so on and so on.

Interesting that now when figures come up detrimental to democrats everyone wants to say let's stop politics and comparisons.....that's fine by me. It can stop here.

It's all Brad's fault, anyway
Huan Yi
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43 posted 12-31-2004 12:21 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Here’s a side question: should the world community, including
the United States, fund the rebuilding of the beach tourist sites, (seemingly
popular with Westerners),  in the impacted areas?


Noah,

What is it you find bias in  Fox reporting India declining
outside aid, or the charitable contributions pledged by U.S.
companies?

Tim
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44 posted 12-31-2004 02:18 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

http://www.nypost.com/commentary/37436.htm
Mistletoe Angel
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45 posted 12-31-2004 04:13 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Balladeer, I understand and respect what you're saying, and I already said I could see where my making-this-political could channel these sorts of emotions.

I'm just saying it was you, yourself, who begged me not to make this political, and though I may not have apologized necessarily, I sympathized with your concern.

But then it was you and Tim who wanted to take this the next step forward and inflate this thread into what sounded to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong, it's just how I felt it as) as "Oh, cheapskates, you wanna talk about cheapskates, let's talk about you blue states...etc.".

I don't know what could have made that happen. If it was because I publicly said I gave $40 to Red Cross, I just find that sad. I didn't mean to come off sounding egotistical or anything, I believe everyone who is contributing anything from half of their lottery winnings to two dimes and a nickel stored in their savings jar should give themselves a pat on the back. A little pride never hurts anyone. And it's not just those who are giving money either. It's those who are giving blood, and plasma. It's those who are volunteering with UNICEF or PeaceCorps and going there to assess the damage and find solutions and ways to help. It's those donating blankets and clothes. Simply those who are giving their thoughts and prayers and sending cards.

Look, I'm sorry that this thread has become such a mess. I'm sorry if I aroused these wild emotions here. I never wanted this to lead into a red vs. blue thread or anything like that. I guess I just feel desperate, feel deeply, about so many like issues, and when I feel everything is interconnected, sometimes anyone feels something is to blame here. The fact plainly is, I believe the scientific community must be embraced, for there's more than just those who died in the earthquake activity, but there's tens of thousands more who will die from the diseases of malaria and such, thus it's urgent the scientific community must be embraced, and I still believe in outrage the government is blindly obsessed with funding the war over all basic qualities of life. But I'm sorry if I took this the wrong direction, I really am.

Look, I absolutely realize and agree now we should let them make the assessments in peace, then the numbers should go up, and I promise, unless I absolutely feel I need to, like if the number remains $35 million after the assessments are complete, I'll keep Bush out of this discussion. I also ask that we stop the red-blue generosity crossfire.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Brad
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46 posted 01-01-2005 05:48 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Interesting that now when figures come up detrimental to democrats everyone wants to say let's stop politics and comparisons.....that's fine by me. It can stop here.


Who said I wanted to stop?

quote:
It's all Brad's fault, anyway


I can live with that.

(Though Tim brought in the state comparison thing first.)
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47 posted 01-01-2005 06:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Noah, regardless of the topic or whatever comments happen to be said, I always know that your heart is in the right place....peace, friend
Tim
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48 posted 01-01-2005 06:55 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

I agree with you totally Brad, Massachusetts does pay more in taxes than Mississippi.  The blue states generally make more money than red states and therefore their taxes are more.

That is the point.  Democrats believe money should be funneled through the Federal Government and have the government solve people's problems.  

That is a philosophical difference in the parties.  

The Republican view would be that taxes should be low and individuals should take care of themselves and others rather than the federal government.  We have had somewhat of a turnaround in that idea recently in the area of welfare; it seems to be working.

As far as your statements about tying foreign aid to emergency relief assistance, those are two entirely different and while the U.N. traditionally would try to tie the two together, there are different interests involved.  You are talking apples to oranges when you go there.
Huan Yi
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49 posted 01-01-2005 09:27 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Tim/Mike

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142991,00.html


Couldn’t resist it, (I’m going to Hell).
 
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