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Passions in Poetry

Unbelievable

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LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


50 posted 01-11-2005 07:23 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

No Brad, not pitied...basically, trying to reinterate, they are like any other human being...sadly lost in their belief...despite perhaps the ability to realize, anything is possible...

Oh I don't know, I just think if we'd be more patient with each other, before blame and pointing fingers, we'd all be able to learn something?  

Let me sum it up this way....They are doing the best that they possibly can do...due to conditioning by their parents and their human interritation of the Bible.  If you sit back and watch...people can only give what they know...and none of us are perfect...not to mention those that from the beginning of time, want to control, for lust of whatever their obsession...?  

Point being, we should be much farther along and we're regressing, dividing ourselves by organized whatevers...man made quick fixes and beliefs...

Not pity, but perhaps a better understanding, which might also open doors
to a more realistic way of thinking...collaberating ideas...perspectives....until one day maybe, we begin to learn from experience...by understanding...we're all searching for something mystical, magical, something which exsists far beyond our imagination, which is an entity of all goodness...meek and right, who will set things straight....

I suppose the more I grow, the more I become agnostic...can you imagine, once a Sunday School Teacher and Born Again Christian...yup...that was me....

I just cannot let go of the fact, that indeed the Bible was written by Human Beings, capable to be led by the thirst of power, control, perhaps, not even realizing.  Hey, I've had some really strange dreams to, that came true...detail for detail...but does that make me a profit?  I think not....not by any means....

I just think and belief it is only through understanding, patience, and humbleness, that we grow closer to the truth...whose to really say?  Who really knows, except for those who have passed on before us....

I can't wait to see what's there, when I get there, but to be honest, I'm not pushing to be first in line...I think and believe this is just one plain into the next, and the next after that?  Perhaps I'm the one, whose got it all wrong?

Not pity, but perhaps a learning of sorts, through understanding?
JoshG
Member
since 11-16-2004
Posts 127
TX, USA


51 posted 01-11-2005 10:17 AM       View Profile for JoshG   Email JoshG   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JoshG

"I'm a closet beastialitist.  I didn't choose this lifestyle, but rather was born into it.  I am now of age and want to start holding parades and parties in your streets and schools.  I want to publicly display my lifestyle and make others of my kind comfortable with the life they have to live.  (the note on the door of the school:  Please keep all pets and animals on a tight leash or enter at your own risk)"

An interesting tidbit of information.  One day this is the battle we will be fighting.  Maybe one day we will all understand that Freedom is not ever and never will be free.  It will cost us our souls.
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


52 posted 01-12-2005 06:19 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Josh

Point well taken

This is all so complex, and yet, could be so simple...there is though, I believe, a time for things...things to be talked about, acted out and displayed in the privacy of one's own home...


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


53 posted 01-12-2005 09:50 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Hmmm, perhaps, I just misunderstand you. I mean the difference between, "Because I'm a Christian, I must do this." And, "Before I was a Christian, I wouldn't do this, but now I will because I want to."
JoshG
Member
since 11-16-2004
Posts 127
TX, USA


54 posted 01-12-2005 11:43 AM       View Profile for JoshG   Email JoshG   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JoshG

My point is that somewhere we must all stand for something or we will fall for anything.  We are falling and will continue to fall, it is the way of humanity.  There is nothing we can do to stop it, but we can at least slow it down.  Humans are sick and demented creatures.  We take, consume, digest and spit out every resource we identify.  We spend tons of time trying to cope with our sick nature and thus turn to other habit to satisfy.  Those habits turn into more sick nature and the process repeats itself.  The problem I have is that we are using "American Freedom" as a basis for argument and justification.  The mass desensitation of humanity.
Denise
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Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
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55 posted 01-15-2005 10:01 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Here are the latest articles I've found.

The issue isn't whether you agree with their message, agree with their beliefs, or agree with their methods. The only issues here are freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
quote:
The charges stem from Marcavage showing up at a gay pride event called "Outfest" and preaching that homosexual conduct is a sin. He was joined by 10 other members of his group, Repent America, there last October.

The groupís message was not well-received by the event organizers, who sought to surround the group and drown out their leaderís biblical recitations.

City police, who were supposed to be there to make sure peace was maintained and everyoneís civil rights were upheld, instead moved against the protesters. Marcavage and the others were arrested. As they were taken away, the Outfesters, of course, cheered.

"We have a right to have a party," said Franny Price, an organizer of the event.

Yes they do. But they donít have the "right" to be protected from the religious views of any citizen who cares to share them. Not if "Outfest" is going have its "party" in a public place, on a public street -- funded, by the way, with public dollars.

If Philadelphiaís gay community wanted to throw a party to celebrate gayness with no risk of party poopers, they should have rented a hall, with their own money, and taken it inside. There, they would be free to exclude anybody whose opinions and beliefs offended them.

But if you want to put on a public demonstration to celebrate something that a large number of people in this country still seem to think of as sinful, well, you take your chances that somebody is going to show up and tell you where they think youíve gone wrong.

It would be nice to know where the American Civil Liberties Union comes down in all of this. I called the Philadelphia office yesterday but didnít hear back.

But on its national Web page, the ACLU states:

"It is probably no accident that freedom of speech is the first freedom mentioned in the First Amendment ..

Uh, no itís not. The first freedom mentioned in the First Amendment is freedom of religion. That the ACLU has now seen fit to edit the Bill of Rights to exclude it says a lot about that once-august organization.

The ACLU once had the guts to stand up for the right of Nazis to march in America. Today, in this case, the ACLU is AWOL. Doesnít a Christian in this country have the same civil rights as a Nazi?

Even if you think Marcavage is a nut, heís a clever nut. His case not only shows the fearful intolerance of some in the gay community, but their influence in Philadelphia to silence and even have arrested their perceived enemies.

People who truly appreciate the First Amendment understand that it canít be selectively applied or ignored by government officials. There have to be a good number of gay men and women who disagree with serious charges levied against Marcavage and the others; gays who understand that if a religious zealotís rights can be violated with impunity by the police and D.A.ís office, so can theirs.

They should speak up.

Wednesday afternoon, watching Marcavage and fellow defendant Mark Diener, Bibles in hand, being interviewed by the media in front of the courthouse, a well-dressed passerby offered his opinion on the matter.

"It scares me how close those guys are to the Taliban," he said.

We amicably agreed to disagree.

It was a foggy day in the city. So foggy you couldnít see Billy Pennís feet.

A different sort of fog seems to be clouding the minds of some would-be liberal lawyers when it comes to this prosecution.

Itíll be nice when it finally lifts.

http://www.delcotimes.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13749114&BRD=1675&PAG=461&dept_id=18171&rfi=8
quote:
"In a political coup bordering on the surreal, four of the 11 [Christians] were charged with multiple felonies, including possession of instruments of crime (a mini-bullhorn), inciting a riot (despite the glaring absence of said riot) and most disturbingly, ethnic intimidation. Ethnic intimidation? Due to Philadelphia's recent amendment to their hate-crime legislation, criticizing homosexuality has been lumped in as 'hate crime material.'"

Continued Mitchell's description: "These men and women were not the cartoonish, televangelist types, screaming hellfire and brimstone, but were active citizens voicing their dissent in a peaceful, law-abiding fashion, when police and homosexual thugs surrounded them, impeded their progress on a public street, aggressively pushed them away from the event and ultimately stripped them of their American civil liberties."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42370

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


56 posted 01-16-2005 11:18 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

It's good, Denise, that you were able to find some solid, unbiased reports.

It sure would be nice, though, to see the facts before they were twisted by so much fear and hatred. Yes, the issues are about freedom of speech, but that doesn't necessarily make them any simpler. You may have the right to park your car on a public street, but that doesn't mean you can choose a spot already occupied. They don't usually call that freedom, Denise, they call it a collision. When you bring a bullhorn to someone else's event, you're not just trying to be heard. You're trying to be heard at the expense of others being heard. That, too, is called a collision.
~DreamChild~
Senior Member
since 04-23-2001
Posts 544
in your dreams


57 posted 01-16-2005 03:35 PM       View Profile for ~DreamChild~   Email ~DreamChild~   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ~DreamChild~

seems to me that Christianity is the only religion that ISN'T protected by the constitution. that's no surprise though.
the bibe tells of persecution that christians will endure.
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


58 posted 01-16-2005 05:02 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I wouldn't call a reporter from a neighboring local community newspaper a biased source, Ron. It's not a church newspaper and he isn't a representative of a church or an ideology and nowhere does he even identify himself as a christian.

The public sidewalks are not occupied parking spaces, they are open to everyone, to be shared by everyone, unless they are cordoned off by a court injunction, which they weren't.

Any two opposing views could result in a collision. Does that mean then that protestors should not be free to exercise their right of freedom of speech at or near events organized by groups with whom they ideologically disagree?  Should freedom of speech only be utilized when you are agreeing with someone else?

Somehow, I don't think that was the intention.
Ron
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Michigan, US


59 posted 01-16-2005 10:22 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I wouldn't call a reporter from a neighboring local community newspaper a biased source, Ron.

Are you honestly going to tell me this writer was reporting facts and not editorializing, Denise? His entire piece drips with bias. And that's fine, because editorials definitely have a place, but let's please not pretend it's something it's not.

quote:
The public sidewalks are not occupied parking spaces ...

It's called an analogy, Denise. And if I happen to be standing on the sidewalk at the time, then it IS occupied, and I'd very much appreciate if you didn't step on my toes in your haste to yell in my ear (that's an analogy, too, by the way).

quote:
Any two opposing views could result in a collision.

You an I clearly have opposing views, Denise, yet there is no collision. If I took a metaphorical bullhorn, however, and used it to deprive you of your chance to post, I suspect you'd have a much better idea of what a collision is.

Marcavage has NEVER evidenced interest in freedom of speech. On the contrary, what he wants is the right to yell louder than the other guy, disrupting the rights of anyone who disagrees with his own views. He's repeated the same pattern over and over, right down to the bullhorn that got him in trouble at the Condom Kingdom, and I think it's clear that someone finally got tired of it. He's "playing" the system, confident he's smart enough to get away with it, and frankly, I honestly hope he gets his fingers burnt.

If Marcavage truly wants to exercise his freedom of speech, he should spend a couple of bucks and organize his own events. Of course, that would require some honest effort, and there is always the danger he would discover (shudder) no one wants to hear what he has to say. As long as he's disrupting others' events, yelling at people he KNOWS disagree with him, Marcavage never has to test his own convictions. Is his message compelling enough to draw an audience? I don't think he has the courage to find out.


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


60 posted 01-16-2005 11:14 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


If some municipality funded a public Outfest
and parade for deer hunters, and members of
the Buddhist faith or members of PETA  demonstrated
their opposition in view and within hearing nearby,
without physically obstructing the proceedings,
would the police force of the municipality be right
in arresting them, and would the municipalityís prosecutor
be right in bringing charges against them?

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


61 posted 01-17-2005 12:01 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
If some municipality funded a public Outfest
and parade for deer hunters, and members of
the Buddhist faith or members of PETA  demonstrated
their opposition in view and within hearing nearby,
without physically obstructing the proceedings,
would the police force of the municipality be right
in arresting them, and would the municipalityís prosecutor
be right in bringing charges against them?


Yes and yes. Apparently you haven't been around animal rights activists recently (Come to think of it, neither have I).


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


62 posted 01-17-2005 12:11 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Brad,

And the Buddhists?
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


63 posted 01-17-2005 02:26 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... in view and within hearing nearby

If they're within hearing, do they really need a bullhorn?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with protesting, but Marcavage apparently isn't content to protest. His pattern is one of designed disruption.

quote:
... would the police force of the municipality be right in arresting them, and would the municipalityís prosecutor be right in bringing charges against them?

For protesting? No. For trying to provoke the opposition or incite violence? Quite possibly. For refusing to follow the legal directions of the police? Absolutely.

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


64 posted 01-17-2005 10:25 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Maybe I can call the DA's office to get the raw facts of the incident? Maybe they will be more forthcoming with me than they seem to be with the press?

The most important aspect of the article, to me, was the point of the silence of the ACLU, and the fact that the ACLU's website referenced freedom of speech as the first freedom mentioned in the Bill of Rights, completely ignoring that freedom of religion is actually the first right mentioned (I can't believe that this faux pas is due to their lack of knowledge of the First Amendment, do you? ). Those pieces of information seem like facts to me, not editorializing.

I would think that most protestors tend to be disruptive to draw attention to their words, Ron. I'm not defending that, anymore than I defend the anti-war protestors who blocked traffic for most of the day one day last summer and the summer before (and who were not arrested, by the way, even though that was a clear violation of the permit...go figure). If protestors are not obeying the law through disruptive behavior they should be arrested. I don't have a problem with that. My problem with this incident is with what they are being charged. That is where the free speech issue is being violated, in my opinion.
Ron
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65 posted 01-17-2005 10:55 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I'm curious, Denise, if you've seen the ACLU reference in question? Since you think it's important, perhaps it would be best if it was directly cited.
Midnitesun
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Member Empyrean
since 05-18-2001
Posts 29020
Gaia


66 posted 01-17-2005 11:03 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Actually Denise, since both the freedom of religion and speech issues are addressed in the First Amendment, I fail to see your point of contention with the ACLU's statement.
Freedom of speech IS a First Amendment issue.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


67 posted 01-17-2005 07:28 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Here's the first amendment:

quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



I can't find the quote on the ACLU homepage, I did find this:

quote:
Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.

Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.

Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.

Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.


Anybody know where that quote is?
Denise
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since 08-22-99
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68 posted 01-17-2005 07:48 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeechMain.cfm

Kacy, their statement says that freedom of speech is the first right mentioned in the First Amendment. It's not true. And they know it's not true. They are supposed to be the experts, the guys who look after our rights. That is my problem with it. And to boot they conveniently left out any mention of freedom of religion at all. They mentioned every one but that one.

[This message has been edited by Denise (01-17-2005 09:25 PM).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


69 posted 01-17-2005 08:22 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Hmmm, I see it as a rhetorical trick, (arguable, I suppose, but not very convincing). Still, given that it has been brought up:

Which is the most important:

Government shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, shall make no law prohibiting the exercise of religion, or no law abridging free speech?
Denise
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70 posted 01-17-2005 08:55 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I see it as an elevating of the freedom of speech right and a downplaying of the freedom of religion right by the ACLU, their 'spin', if you will, Brad. If someone's main source for information about their rights is the ACLU, they would be led to believe that freedom of speech is actually the first right mentioned and therefore perhaps the most important, which seems to be what they are trying to convey with "It is probably no accident that..."?


quote:
It is probably no accident that freedom of speech is the first freedom mentioned in the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." The Constitutionís framers believed that freedom of inquiry and liberty of expression were the hallmarks of a democratic society.


They are all equally important, not one more important than the other, and none can really exist without all being held equally in regard, in my opinion.

Their above statement should read, to accurately reflect the spirit of the First Amendment:

quote:
It is probably no accident that freedom of religion and freedom of speech are the first freedoms mentioned in the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." The Constitutionís framers believed that freedom of religion and inquiry and liberty of expression were the hallmarks of a democratic society.

[This message has been edited by Denise (01-17-2005 09:32 PM).]

Ron
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71 posted 01-17-2005 10:44 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

You're right, Denise. They definitely got it wrong, and should be encouraged to correct it.

I wouldn't consider it a conspiracy, however, because Brad's quotation above is only one of many such references to religious freedom that are mentioned on the ACLU site. And it's not just lip-service, either, because the separation of church and state has historically been one of their most active battlegrounds. Some, I think, have fervently WISHED the ACLU would forget what the First Amendment says about religion, but I'm certainly glad to see you're not one of them. I think this is an isolated instance, as Brad said, a bit of rhetoric, but I nonetheless think you are right. We should all write to the ACLU, urging them to correct this obvious mistake and to re-double their efforts on the religious front.
Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


72 posted 01-17-2005 11:29 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

ACLU, 125 Broad Street, 18th Floor New York, NY 10004

Aside from that, taken from the very very bottom of their website, I couldn't find contact addresses or emails, not even to the webmaster.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


73 posted 01-17-2005 11:54 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Alicat there's a 'Local ACLU' section with local addresses/contact info and there is a Feedback section for FAQs and email
Alicat
Member Elite
since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


74 posted 01-18-2005 01:09 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Saw those, Aenimal, but figured to get website changes, you pretty much had to contact the corporation/webmaster directly.  On the feedback page, perhaps I just didn't find what I was looking for.  What I did see was links for ACLU members or those who desire to become members, but not ones for direct contact/feedback.
 
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