How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Unbelievable   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Unbelievable

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


25 posted 12-28-2004 03:54 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

i have to admit i find the whole thing amusing. the irony of it all. after 364 days of neo-cons, the christian reich, and other forms of moral mafia dictating how people should live their lives, it's hard for many to sympathize with cries of victimhood.

im not saying i agree with the pc agenda, i'm just amused by the outrage and disbelief now that the boot is on the other foot. call it unfair but there are many who'd call it kharma or just deserts.

especially with christian/right wing 'morality' being forced on everything, ranging from what people can watch/read/listen to, to 'legal' definitions of what constitute marriage and/or life.

i'm not agreeing with the pc agenda, PCism is a noble cause that too often spirals out of control. but that only because things tend to balance out. therefore in retaliation to the reich agendas, enter pc thugs. balance.

and with all the things to be up in arms with this year with regards to government hypocrisy/stupidity/interference. this is the one that gets most of you riled?

sighs..all these silly agendas. but then i suppose i have my own, exposing hypocrisy, which includes my own since i'd swore off responding or posting 'opinions' here.

sighs..silly humans

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


26 posted 12-28-2004 07:17 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



Is funding a celebration tantamount to promoting
the subject being celebrated?
Skyfyre
Senior Member
since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap


27 posted 12-28-2004 07:40 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

quote:
Why was the city funding
“a gay celebration”?


For the same reason that they fund Black History or Hispanic History Month?

Being gay is not a choice, or a "lifestyle" any more than being black or Hispanic is a lifestyle.

The X-rated events in public I can certainly agree with Denise about, however while Serenity brings up the subject of Mardi Gras, how many people are arrested for the (many) heterosexual X-rated events that occur there?  Definitely a double standard at work there, little different, if a bit subtler, than separate bathrooms or water fountains for gays.
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


28 posted 12-28-2004 07:59 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

"after 364 days of neo-cons, the christian reich, and other forms of moral mafia."

I would tend to agree that there is more than enough hypocrisy and bigotry to go around...
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


29 posted 12-28-2004 08:11 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

We're basically like Massachusetts here, particularly Philadelphia, Ron. If you have a Democratic ideology, you're in whether you're an imbecile or not.

And I can't run for office. I'm a civil servant, it's against the "rules" of the Home Rule Charter and Civil Service Regulations. And since I'm a conservative I wouldn't win anyway, so why bother?

I think people should be able to freely quote from any book that they please to quote from in public venues without fear of being charged with a hate crime felony, whether it's the Bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon, or Darwin's Origin of the Species, just as folks are free to disagree with whatever is being quoted. And telling someone what they may not want to hear does not necessarily mean it is being done to incite hatred and anger. It can sometimes be done as an act of love, an attempt to show someone the error of their ways. Now even though that may anger the person hearing it, it doesn't mean that was the intent of the speaker.
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


30 posted 12-28-2004 08:22 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
The X-rated events in public I can certainly agree with Denise about, however while Serenity brings up the subject of Mardi Gras, how many people are arrested for the (many) heterosexual X-rated events that occur there?  Definitely a double standard at work there, little different, if a bit subtler, than separate bathrooms or water fountains for gays.


Why Linda? I guess I'm not following you. Are the gays in Mardi Gras being arrested for lewd acts in public whereas the straights are not? I personally find it equally appalling, no matter who is performing such acts in public.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


31 posted 12-28-2004 08:41 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Skyfyre,

I know this getting off the track but:

‘Being gay is not a choice, or a "lifestyle"’

Please provide a link to the science supporting this.

http://salmon.psy.plym.ac.uk/year1/psychobiology_site_backups/homosexuality-debate/choice.html
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


32 posted 12-28-2004 11:02 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
"after 364 days of neo-cons, the christian reich, and other forms of moral mafia."

I would tend to agree that there is more than enough hypocrisy and bigotry to go around...


Tim, if you choose to quote and label me i hope you at least took the time to read the entire post. you'd find that i'm clearly unimpressed with hypocrisy from all angles including my own

quote:
i'm not agreeing with the pc agenda, PCism is a noble cause that too often spirals out of control...retaliation to the reich agendas, enter pc thugs...

i suppose i have my own, exposing hypocrisy, which includes my own since i'd swore off responding or posting 'opinions'

Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


33 posted 12-28-2004 11:07 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

then I would say we are both unimpressed.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


34 posted 12-28-2004 11:22 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

and youre entitled to be, just as long as its for the right reasons.

condemnation of the christian reich and neo-cons is not an attack on all christians or conservatives. they are specific factions that attempt to dictate how life is lived by everyone else, the flipside, PC thugism. neither side sees their hypocrisy and a vicious cycle is continuously fed. its natural to express outrage and opinion, but its also important to find out the reasons why things happen. shrugs
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


35 posted 12-29-2004 10:54 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

In previous discussions concerning civil disobedience, of those offering opinions on its acceptability as a valid form of protest, I believe that I was one of the few, if not the only one, who deemed it unacceptable, that a line was crossed when protest turned to civil disobedience.

Now it seems that civil disobedience is viewed here as an unacceptable form of protest, is that right? (I agree), and so much so that it even invalidates a person's claim of being a genuine Christian, that they can only be alleged Christians? (I disagree.)

Or is it that civil disobedience is viewed to be a perfectly acceptable form of protest for basically everyone else, except when committed by these so-called alleged Christians at abortion clinics, and gay festivals and Condom Kingdom, and a school play depicting Jesus as a homosexual? And why is a play depicting Jesus as anything allowed in a school? It's okay as long as it is one that depicts him as a homosexual, but not okay if it depicts him as the Savior born in a manger?
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


36 posted 12-29-2004 11:38 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Denise,

Civil disobedience is okay. It also means you go to jail if you practice it. Are you sure you understand the term?
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


37 posted 12-29-2004 11:54 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yep, I understand the term, Brad, just don't agree with you that it is okay. If it were okay, no one would go to jail for practicing it, would they?

And not all those who practice it go to jail, do they?  
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


38 posted 12-30-2004 02:44 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

But the whole point of civil disobedience is to go to jail (or be punished in one way or  another).

This is done in order to protest the law being broken, to show the absurdity of the law itself. Which law were these people protesting?

Skyfyre
Senior Member
since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap


39 posted 12-30-2004 03:24 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

quote:
Why Linda? I guess I'm not following you. Are the gays in Mardi Gras being arrested for lewd acts in public whereas the straights are not? I personally find it equally appalling, no matter who is performing such acts in public.


There are those, however, that would condemn the one while condoning the other, if not overtly.  I commend you for not being one of them.

quote:
I know this getting off the track but:

‘Being gay is not a choice, or a "lifestyle"’

Please provide a link to the science supporting this.


I'm afraid I can't.  Well, actually I probably could, but I am unconvinced that psychology as a science can draw any supportable conclusions.  It can document trends within a group or a population, or even over a number of years, but it is at best an inexact science with many "camps" who will draw the opposite, or at least incomparably disparate, conclusions from the same data.

We are eons from understanding the human mind well enough to document its working with any sort of surety.  Add to that the touchiness of the subject ("Excuse me Mr/Ms homosexual, would you mind if I studied you to see if you were born gay or just "decided" to be sexually abberrant?") and you've got a huge basis for suppositions, from likely to downright improbable, but nothing to support an actual scientific theory.

I base my statements on personal experience and the experiences of those close to me who are truly homosexual.  I say "truly" because there are those who experiment with same-sex unions because they are curious or because it's "cool," but I don't consider them homosexual.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


40 posted 12-30-2004 04:35 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I didn't mean to leave Linda holding the bag like that.

For the record though, I have nothing but admiration for the city of New Orleans as the job that they do as they balance crowd control and protest is simply remarkable, if not downright commendable.

But I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that Southern Decadence (a secondary celebration from Mardi Gras, specifically touted to celebrate the gay and lesbian lifestyle) has of recent years been targeted by several Christian protest groups, one of which seems to be profiting from the resulting publicity quite nicely I might add.

Sadly, last year, the resulting hostile confrontation came to a violent head, as a tourist was shot by a member of this particularly vocal group after being mistaken for one of the gay participants.

I'm quite certain, Denise that you don't condone such acts as civil disobedience, no more than any sane person would condone the bombing of a women's clinic in order to protest abortion.

However, New Orleans rather infamous cry of "Show us your um, wits" is not only tolerated, but has become a source of amusement throughout the world.

Whereas, the harassment of homosexuals (like Linda I have only the stories related to me by my homosexual friends to back that up) is also legendary.

But for the most part, I think New Orleans does a fine job of tolerance and impartiality, as evidenced by our very large and robustly visible gay community. (er...yeah, sometimes very visable, but last I heard, it's okay for men to show their wits.)



What amazes me though, is that in order to be offended by the activities, one would have to attend.

I'm proud to say there is a Christian protest group that proudly marches through the streets of the French Quarter every Fat Tuesday, carrying a cross, ministering and spreading the gospel. They have done this without fail for the past twenty years at least.

Ironically, they have become a part of the spectacle that they are protesting.

Peace to all.



And btw? Should any of you be planning to visit our decadent city this upcoming Carnival season, you CAN and might very well be arrested for public nudity, should you try to, um, bargain for your beads. (Just buy 'em folks, there's only one place in New Orleans where the food is bad, and that's central lock up.)

Although statistically, most arrests for nudity are due to public urination.

(Ain't no place to pee on Mardi Gras Day.)

and now, gee, after this description, who could pass up a party like that?
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


41 posted 12-30-2004 10:57 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'd say they were protesting against the police order that they disperse by not dispersing, Brad, if that actually is what happened?

The subsequent charges that were leveled against them by the prosecutor and judge misusing the new PA hate crimes law is what strikes me as outrageous. They could have appropriately been charged with just failure to disperse.

It's a sad day for America when peaceful protestors can't assemble in public and read bible verses without facing a felony charge that carries a possible sentence of 47 years in prison.

The whole incident was on tape and only those caught on tape reading from the bible were charged with the felony. And it was not even the protestors who were being abusive and hateful, it was some of the participants in OutFest who reacted that way when hearing the bible verses, and that also is on tape, but the ones who were really being hateful and abusive were not arrested. I guess it's okay to be hateful and abusive to folks who aren't classified as one of the "protected groups" under the hate crimes law.

I guess four Christians reading the bible on one small section of sidewalk as a huge celebratory extravaganza of a parade that stretched for miles marched by (with a noise level that could drown out any bullhorn, if there was one) was just way too much of an assault on the sensibilities of some.

If these charges stand, what makes us any different than Communist China, or some other repressive regime?

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


42 posted 12-31-2004 12:02 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
The subsequent charges that were leveled against them by the prosecutor and judge misusing the new PA hate crimes law is what strikes me as outrageous. They could have appropriately been charged with just failure to disperse.


I can't comment on that, but I'm not a big fan of hate crime legislation either (more because I don't really understand how they work than anything else). Maybe they should have been charged with intent to incite a riot (which is not covered by the 1st amendment).

Given the homework Ron did, this is probably what happened. The funny part in all of this is the outrage that we have over one instance. Bible reading, street preaching, were everywhere when I grew up (and I grew up in the evil, secular, blue state, California ). The last time I was in the states, we sat and listened to a man who had a pretty good voice (though his rhetorical skill weren't that great, he kept reiterating that if we didn't do what he said, we were going to go to hell and all that other stuff).

It was a good show.


Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


43 posted 01-01-2005 06:52 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It's certainly a different world that we live in today.

And I think intent is not an easy thing to ascertain. Who knows what the intent of a person's heart is, with any degree of certainty? These folks could very well have been acting according their conscience to be a presence, a non-violent presence, to at least take a stand for the biblical principles of morality that they believe in, whether they are jeered and scoffed at or ignored. I've done the same at a pro-life rally. No violence, no evil intent, no hate, just a presence to take a stand against the loss of life of millions of unborn babies, with prayer and reading of bible verses. If such a presence makes even one woman think twice and prevents even one abortion, then that presence, that voice, has served a good end.

I expected a little more outrage over the charges leveled in this incident, the obvious misuse of the hate crimes law in an attempt to silence a message that some don't want to hear. I guess no one will have to worry about those pesky activist Christians raining on their parade next year. Whether one agrees with the message presented, or even the wisdom of the venue that was chosen, I think it is a serious blow to freedom of religion and speech. And if assaults on freedom of religion and speech like this are allowed to occur, it won't end with just the Christians losing their freedom of expression. That will just be the beginning.
ice
Member Elite
since 05-17-2003
Posts 3059
Pennsylvania


44 posted 01-01-2005 08:29 PM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

­If the Christian "protestors" were reading out loud any of the following scriptures, then it is my opinion that they should have been arrested for inciting a riot.

Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
Deuteronomy 23:17
Romans 1:26-27:
I Corinthians 6:9:

The Leviticus scriptures seem most condemning of homosexual activity..even calling for the death of practicing homosexuals..

Lev 20:13 (KJV)
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

If they read Lev. 20:13 out loud, I consider it a hate message and think they should be prosecuted as such, in any way that the law provides.

JMHO

Does anyone know what passages were being read, and how it was presented?

What was on the banners that were being waved?

Was the legal rally carried on by the "Out" group physically interrupted in any way by the "protestors"?


JMHO

_________ice
  ><>


­­
­
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


45 posted 01-01-2005 11:43 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't know the exact details, ice. I can't seem to be able to find them. They seem to be a pretty well-kept secret. I didn't even find out about the incident in the local papers, but online. I'm pretty sure though that it would have made the front page headlines if a group were protesting and calling for the blood of homosexuals. If I can find out any more details, I'll let you know.

The Book of Leviticus contains the laws and the prescribed punishments for the breaking of those laws for the citizens of the Nation of Israel back in those times. They never pertained to the other nations, and you won't find those penalties called for in the New Testament pages, other than the general statement of fact that the wages of sin is death (the physical death that we will all experience due to the effects of sin and the spiritual death that is ours until we receive life through Christ).

In Romans and Corinthians, homosexuality is among a long list of other things described as sins, like adultery, idolatry, cheating, thieving, envy, murder, pride, greed, drunkeness, disobedience to parents, etc., etc., the list so long that no one is excluded, which I think is the point, that we all need the forgiveness of God. None of us is righteous and good in and of ourselves, nor can we be, that we need Christ's righteousness. I think that's the central message of Christianity.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


46 posted 01-10-2005 02:21 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


‘The California atheist who unsuccessfully sued to get the phrase "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance is back with a new version of the same suit and another one seeking to prevent members of the clergy from praying at President Bush's inauguration, reports Religion News Service.

Dr. Michael Newdow refiled the pledge suit in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of California on Monday. In the new case, Newdow has been joined in the suit by three families who include atheists and claim they are offended "to have their government and its agents advocating for a religious view they each specifically decry."

Newdow says he also filed suit in a Washington district court to try to stop clergy from uttering prayers at Bush's Jan. 20 inauguration. He said in the filing that such prayers make him feel like a "second-class citizen."’

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143822,00.html

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


47 posted 01-10-2005 10:47 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I'm afraid this will continue until these people who are being sued, stand up and sue right back....I'm so sick of being a minority with this politically correct business...it's really starting to go way overboard...talk about from one extreme to the next????

You know, if this continues...there will be a civil war...

I'm so sorry for those people who were praying....what next?
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


48 posted 01-10-2005 10:57 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I forgot to add this in my last comment and wanted to sorry...

I know how some of you feel about Christians...but they're not all bad...and if you consider the concept, you can't give what you haven't known, well, perhaps you might go easier on them....

Believe me, I was once married to A so called born again Christian...it curled my skin...to see him rather be right, then his concern for human kind.  

But....consider, it is all they know, and that belief has been drilled into them since childhood...narrow minded as they might seem, they are people to, and we must remember to consider that.

I know, I know, the logic sometimes just is so absent...just the other day, this same man said to a mutual friend of ours...."I'm concerned about you...you need to associate with born again Christians".....shhhheessshhhh, he's turned into his mother....but long story short...it is all he knows...which might not excuse they're actions, but certainly might help to close the gap...they honestly believe they are doing good...and they're is nothing wrong with structured religion if you believe in it...but...it turned me off, and then some...have a difficult time dealing with that kind of narrow mindedness myself.

But in the same, again....lack of education...in this country and a cultural conditioning.

They've done a lot of good, and there are a lot of good people who believe that organized religion works....

I don't believe they are all bad, just simply a human being searching for something to believe in....aren't we all?

And to be quit honest, people need to fight for their beliefs...even if they're wrong...I just wish more of us would be opened minded while we're at it...ya know?

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


49 posted 01-10-2005 07:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

So Christians should be pitied?

 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Unbelievable   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors