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Shark Tales

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Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


0 posted 12-17-2004 12:33 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/11/afa/172004c.asp


http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20041216040009990001

Alicat
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since 05-23-99
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Coastal Texas


1 posted 12-17-2004 11:20 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

It might be a good idea to give the basis of the post in addition to any links verifying your position noted in the originating basis.  Also, not everyone has an AOL account, and I, for one, do not desire one.  I get enough of their crap during program installs that I have to hunt down and clean out.  Your second link requires an AOL account, which is why I mention it.

Now, to address the first link, having a cross-dressing animated character geared towards younger audiences isn't that disturbing to me.  Many children 'cross-dress', if you will, trying on any clothing they come across, especially in emulation of their parents.  There is also the popular pasttime of 'dress up'.  I'm sure children television shows would go the route of showing cross-dressing, if they did not fear boycotts.  And some, like PBS (who in my view has become extremely PC over the past decade), would do so if they weren't worried about public funding.

Also, define 'cross-dressing'.  There are some who would consider a kilt to be a dress.  Howsoever, my paternal and maternal grandfathers wore them, my dad wears them, and I've worn them on occasion.  I'd wear them more often if I had more of them.  With only one kilt, I fret about wear and tear, seeing how the material is light grade wool.

Alicat
PC Title: Scot-Euro-Anglo-Comanche American
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Actual: Texan
Sunshine
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since 06-25-99
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Listening to every heart


2 posted 12-17-2004 02:43 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

From your first link, this excerpt:
quote:
But as Plugged In's Steven Isaac notes, "Had this movie been released 20 years ago, nobody would have been calling attention to this subject." Two decades ago, accepting differences meant accepting a person who might have a different skin color, or be from a different ethnic background.

and to further quote, "much ado about nothing" in the terms of how far we will go to tear something good apart...

But on another note, Huan/John, your point is, what?  [Seeing as how I don't have AOL either, and cannot see if you put up an argument via link.]

Christopher
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3 posted 12-17-2004 03:51 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

ditto the above... really, one can find about anything if they're looking for it, whether intended or not. i've yet to see this film (though i most definitely will - deniro and smith have to be a good combination), but can say that i could, without effort, look to dozens of kid-films and point out that the "difference" of the main character obviously pointed to homosexuality. of course, it could also be referring to the actual perceived differences that often assail children through and possibly past their teenage years. of course, that version's far less insidious, however more likely.

drawing out metaphors from another's work is quite easy, though one has to realize that they're looking through their subjective goggles, likely not the author's intent.
Christopher
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4 posted 12-17-2004 03:55 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

of course there's also the theory that some people are just plain asses and have nothing better to do with their time than to focus on finding platforms from which to spout their bigotry...
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


5 posted 12-17-2004 06:06 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Let's see, there's the two moose in "My Brother's a Bear", the two rhinos in "Ice Age", and have you ever really watched that sleeping scene in "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves"?

And what exactly is the relationship between Ernest and Barthalmew?

It's always been there. But this whole 'family values' thing has always depended on two things:

1. Save the children (even if they don't understand the problem)

2. Short memories.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


6 posted 12-17-2004 08:11 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

The contrast is between the image and reality
of sharks and similar predators.  We’ve become
so indoctrinated with this Mother Nature, furry
and/or  friendly nonsense.  Lions, tigers and
bears are creatures you want to see from a good
distance or on the other side of a deep chasm.
I’ve been underwater with sharks and I knew
enough not try and pet them.  You see an alligator
approaching you in the Everglades, it’s not
coming to sing you a tune.  There’s a good reason
our forefathers killed them when they could.

For those unable to access it:

“Aussies Vow to Destroy Killer Shark
Teen Surfer Killed, Second Fatal Attack in Five Days. ..

SYDNEY, (Dec. 17) - Australian police and wildlife officers were ordered on Friday to destroy a large shark which killed a teenage surfer in a savage attack as his horrified schoolmates looked on

Police said searchers had found a small amount of what were believed to be human remains which they had sent for forensic testing. A search in glassy waters off popular West Beach in the South Australia state capital Adelaide was continuing, they said.

"We're still searching ... they may have found a couple more things that could be human remains," a police spokeswoman said.

Witnesses described on Thursday seeing two great white sharks -- one up to 16 feet long -- attack 18-year-old attack surfer Nick Peterson after he fell off a surfboard which friends were towing behind a small boat about 1,000 feet offshore.

However police and rescuers now believe one large shark killed the teenager, the second fatal shark attack in Australia in five days.

Acting South Australia state premier Kevin Foley said the shark should be killed if it was found even though great white sharks are a protected species in Australian waters.”


http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20041216040009990001


The shark(s) tore the kid in half, and then chowed down.  And they’ll
do it when ever they can.  Read about the Indianapolis.

P.S. I was looking for a site that gave the story about
an English tourist that went swimming in a lake
next to her resort in Africa and instead came up with this
which may further support my point:

http://www.underwatertimes.com/crocsgators/crocsgators.php


“Croc attacks son of South Africa's leading conservationist; father calls attack 'a good sign. It proves that crocodile populations are recovering'”

Now you’re the wife and mother; question: does Dad get supper tonight?


[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (12-17-2004 08:46 PM).]

Christopher
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7 posted 12-17-2004 08:49 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I don't see the correlation between the first article and what you seem to be saying. If this is about "how we should get them, because they present a menace," you're broaching a dominion discussion, rather than one of metaphor morality. Which is it?
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


8 posted 12-17-2004 11:18 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Hmmm, are you saying, John, that we shouldn't have any movies about sharks, lions, or crocs because they are dangerous creatures?

Or are you saying that 'vegetarian sharkism' should be promoted, not lampooned?



Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


9 posted 12-18-2004 12:24 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Brad,

I’m speaking to the misrepresentation of Nature
as something somehow benevolent.  To the myths
that especially predators are kind kindred spirits
somehow misunderstood.  I acknowledge it has
gone on for some time, (think Kipling), still, there
should be an understanding that it just isn’t so.
I am particularly wary of Nature programs
for children where animals of the jungle are cast
as passive characters in some wonderful Oz.
The fact is in Africa thousands of people are
killed every year by Nature in the form of
claws and jaws.    

I seem to recall an old Star Trek episode
that had such fantasies as a theme where
some group of nature lovers hijack the
ship to some Eden where upon arrival
everyone gets injured or killed by reality.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


10 posted 12-18-2004 12:49 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I have some sympathy for that position, John. The common theme in Disney, for example, is that the good guys are in harmony with Nature, talk to it, sing with it, and are helped by the animals. The bad guys are, well, not.

This is not a problem for children who have no problems discerning the movie from the real -- at least if my daughter is any indication. No, if anything, it's the adults who internalize the message and scream when a rabbit is killed, as in Moore's "Roger and Me", and are completely desensitized to the killing of a black man in the next scene.

About the only thing we can do, I guess, is be aware of the problem?  

Sunshine
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11 posted 12-18-2004 06:32 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Let's go further back than Kipling then, and while the animated films and illusionist reality shows [Crocodile hunters and all] continue to show fantasy and some reality, we can further our childrens' education [if indeed that is what you are concerned about] by encouraging them to read all KINDS of literature [some of which I am sure have been made into movies] and provide them with literature from Aesop's Fables...

http://www.pacificnet.net/~johnr/aesop/

quote:
Nearly as old as the Olympics, bigger than Dinosaur, older than the Titanic, more complex than Pokemon and more of them than Beanie Babies are Aesop's Fables. Every day hundreds of entire classrooms of kids from all over the world stop by to read, learn and enhance their living experience. This website is widely read by all cultures from all over the world.  

Excerpt from the link.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


12 posted 12-18-2004 08:05 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Sunshine,

“    This is largely a world of brutal, heartless men—and of cunning,
of wickedness, of murder, of treachery, and deceit, of laughter at the
misfortune of others, of mockery and contempt.  It is also a world
of savage humour, of deft wit, of clever wordplay, of one-upmanship,
of ‘I told you so!’  So stark is the world of Aesop that it calls to mind
two reflections: first, women were relegated to such obscurity and
powerlessness that they were unable to influence the actions of men
or ameliorate them, and were essentially slaves.  (We know from an
analysis of surviving legal speeches that in classical Athens a woman
who was an heiress could be seized from her husband and children,
forcibly divorced and married to a distant male relative whom she
didn’t even know simply because she was a legal conduit through
which property flowed within her father’s family, and a family
property owner must be male.)  Second, there seems to have been
no general public consensus that compassion towards one’s fellow
human beings had anything particularly to recommend it.

     The latter observation is an important one, for we probably tend
to underestimate the ethical transformation of Western culture
which came about as a result of Christianity.  In the West today there
is also much brutality, violence and corruption, but among all of
that there is also widespread public consensus that it is a good thing
to be kind to children, to care about the unfortunate, to help one’s
neighbor, to assist the elderly across busy streets and to come to
the assistance of someone in distress who may be drowning or being
murdered in the street.  But these attitudes seem to have been absent
in ancient Greece except in the case of occasional individuals.  The
underlying ethos of the world of Aesop is ‘you’re on your own, and
if you meet people who are unfortunate, kick them while they are
down’.  The law of the jungle seemed to prevail in the world of men
as well as animals for Aesop.  Perhaps that is why animal stories
were so appropriate.”


Robert Temple,
from his 1997 introduction to:
“Aesop The Complete Fables”

"The law of the jungle seemed to prevail in the world of men
as well as animals for Aesop.  Perhaps that is why animal stories
were so appropriate.”

So Aesop stories would be the better educator,
than those now in which the world of men,
(influenced by civilization), is portrayed
as prevailing in the jungle or under the
waves.
Sunshine
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13 posted 12-18-2004 09:15 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

John, let's say that Aesop should at least be one of the educators.  I don't know your age, whether or not you are a father [I would tend to believe you are, considering...]

but we cannot rely, as some think they can, on only one medium to educate not only children, but anyone.  So we have to [have to?  hmmmm, perhaps "should" is the correct word] take the good with the bad, and continue to instill not only in children, but in all that come into our circle, the better ways, chiefly by example, of how things could be done.  

We are all teachers, to some extent.

And some of the fortunate few continue to be students, as well.

And not to hound a point, but sometimes when you begin your posts as you did this one?  I feel like a train just rushed by and I'm lucky to catch the caboose.  Sometimes, I would like to meet the conductor, too.  
hush
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since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


14 posted 12-18-2004 10:47 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

So what's the point? Shark's shouldn't be gay? Or... sharks should not be shown as nice, but as predatory?

So should we only show straight people as the predatory bigots they can sometimes be? We should never talk about people being gay? Teaching kids to accept others for their differences is bad?

Do you think it's right that gay children/teens are ruthlessly made fun of by their peers?

What's the point?
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


15 posted 12-18-2004 12:22 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

hush,

This is about sharks being sharks;
remember the second site was about
their reality.
fractal007
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since 06-01-2000
Posts 2032


16 posted 12-18-2004 12:44 PM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

Initial response:

It seems that the first article was written by a group of rather presumptuous and probably uneducated people.  The attempted linking of the character in the film with the struggle for homosexuals as they come out of the closet, as it were, is simply foolish.  Suppose that the creators of a film had an individual with autism in mind, for example, as a model from which to create a character.  Suppose further that many individuals with autism struggle with coming clean with their peers about their unique psychological identity.

It seems likely that the conservative critics writing the article above would tack homosexuality and its acceptance onto the message (assuming the film has one) behind the story.  What a great example that would be.  Now children and adults consuming this foolish propaganda will assume that anyone who is not entirely right with the herd (ie does not fit in with his/her classmates, for example) must be a homosexual.

Perhaps this seems a little extreme, but I just wanted to bring to attention the possible dangers of reading whatever happens to be the thing you don't find acceptible in society into a popular film.

2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2
--Smit
My Creations

Tim
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since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


17 posted 12-19-2004 11:15 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Sheesh,,,  I saw Shark Tale as an inane Hollywood attempt at cheap humor by relying on stereotypes (Italians and Blacks) coupled with the always humorous passing gas humor.

The mafia meets hip-hop...

Just goes to show I guess...
JoshG
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since 11-16-2004
Posts 127
TX, USA


18 posted 12-21-2004 02:03 PM       View Profile for JoshG   Email JoshG   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JoshG

Huan and those that relate to the point being made, I will say first that I think all information that we take in is educational.  Anytime we process information it turns to knowledge thus we have been educated, but I don't think its the film industries responsibility to teach us the difference between reality and fiction.  I would definetly look at the intent of the film, even on a subjective level you are going to find it as fiction rather than reality.  It was meant to entertain and it is the parents job to distinguish the reality vs. fiction with there child.  I would hate a world full of reality and non-fiction, being constantly educated by reality can be boring.  I like the challenge of fantasy and fiction, given a good educational upbringing we can even begin to learn from fiction and apply it to reality.  My question - have you ever taken a fictional dream and made it a reality?
Christopher
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19 posted 12-21-2004 03:20 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Josh has a good point which touches on one of my major pet peeves - it is the parents responsibility to monitor and educate their children, not the network's.
fractal007
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20 posted 12-21-2004 11:06 PM       View Profile for fractal007   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fractal007

It was meant to entertain...


Perhaps you might like to consider that a bit more.  Every story written is imbued with the culture and the reality of its creator.  Even the most outlandish and otherworldly story has something of the world of its creator.  If you really want to get technical and decide on what the producer of the film's intent was -- and I understand that the notion of intent is a no no in critical circles? -- perhaps you might like to read up on what the writer's thought or what philosophical/religious/.... pursuasions might be.  Perhaps you would discover then that it indeed was purely for the sake of entertainment.

But on the flip side, you are right in that we do have a role in the education process as receivers of information.  We process the information and in that manner learn each in our own ways.  Perhaps one of us takes a message of homosexuality from it, while the other sees the child shark as an ostricized vegetarian communist?  

Any idiot can see that the result is true.
-- argumentum ad idiotum
Me!

 
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