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Rowley
Junior Member
since 2001-04-07
Posts 30


0 posted 2004-11-11 08:56 PM



How courageous!
Fighting an illegal foreign invasion and brutal occupation of their native country from the super power of the world.
True Patriots.

Respect!
Don't give in.

© Copyright 2004 Rowley - All Rights Reserved
Midnitesun
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647
Gaia
1 posted 2004-11-11 09:11 PM


How sad. For I believe both sides are losing far more than they can ever gain, and on both sides of this, there are imagined wrongs and rights as well as real injustices being perpetrated, especially on innocents who get caught in the middle.
Don't expect any passionate welcome wagon visit from anyone in here.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
2 posted 2004-11-11 11:21 PM


Oh yes, particularly given the paradise they had before
and are fighting so desperately to return to.  And wish
them luck killing all the Iraqi men women and children traitors
who don’t share their view.


Mistletoe Angel
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3 posted 2004-11-11 11:32 PM




I'm not cheering either.

In wars like this, both sides are losers. The Iraqis have lost over 100,000 of their own citizens, and we have lost over 1,100 of ours. Plus many other nations in the coalition have their own losses.

And, in result, the citizens of Iraq spend each day dwelling in fear and panic, vulnerable to the war, with talks of division already happening in the southern provinces of Basra, while America is only digging itself deeper into this huge mess and damaging relations with much of the rest of the world and inciting further resentment.

I am not one who will think unilaterally when it comes to working for peace and non-violent strategies. I believe it all must be talked out bi-laterally and orderly.

I am personally saddened reading this.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
4 posted 2004-11-12 12:22 PM


Yes, let’s pray they’re able to bring back the good
old days when an ambitious man could get a good
government job and career as a professional rapist.
Oh for those years when you could legally leave a woman’s
head on the street in front of her family’s house.
When you could watch a man dissolve alive in a bath
of acid.  In Paradise there’s only seventy virgins,
under Saddam you could have thousands.  
Oh I know there’s beheading, but it’s
not the same as when there was the good life
to go with it.  A hundred thousand?  A million
is worth bringing back that lost Eden.

Larry C
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286
United States
5 posted 2004-11-12 11:50 AM


Won't find any cheers for tragedy on this website.

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

Alicat
Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094
Coastal Texas
6 posted 2004-11-12 01:03 PM


Rowley is, however, fully allowed to express his views, and it is my sincere hope that those who may disagree with it do so in a respectful manner.

Alicat
Alley/Lounge Moderator

Mistletoe Angel
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7 posted 2004-11-12 01:12 PM


You're right, Alicat, you absolutely are.

However, Rowley must understand also that in sayings things like this, many are finding this hard to digest and he can barely expect any agreement from most, and may have difficulty being welcomed here.

Rowley, we respect each individual's right to freedom of speech and you are free to express your views, but please also realize saying something like this won't win over many either. Just some advice and trying to help you out.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Larry C
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
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8 posted 2004-11-12 01:16 PM


However, when you chose a peripheral position and state it without candy coating then responses will likely not be candy coated either. I would, however, never argue the right of free speech. Nor would I ever chose to be disrespectful. Alicat it's obvious why you are qualified to moderate. It is an appropriate reminder. Thanks.

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
9 posted 2004-11-12 02:42 PM


Rowley:

One question and one comment:

1. What made the invasion illegal?  There is certainly precedent above and beyond WMD to justify removing a tyrant from power (goes all the way back to the 17th century, if I'm not mistaken).

2. You make an interesting point - certainly we ought not forget that evil men are capable of courage.  While we're lauding their courage, why don't we send a "shout out" to the Iraqi insurgents' valiant Chechnyan cousins who reached deep to find the courage to slaughter school children.

I agree with Alicat that you are certainly entitled to your views, but if you want to air them in the agora, I hope you take us beyond empty rhetoric.

Jim

Rowley
Junior Member
since 2001-04-07
Posts 30

10 posted 2004-11-13 01:20 PM


Hi everybody, sorry. I apologize if I have offended anybody here. The replies I have received have been very compassionate, may peace be upon you all.
Occupation breeds resistance.
I depend on the Iraq resistance. After all, if there were no Iraqi resistance the US government would be bombing and invading Iran by now and so on. The resistance in Iraq is saving lives.  
The war on terror is a war of aggression that has created more resentment and danger towards my country. Do we here in the US not expect any retaliation in our future for what our government has done in Iraq?
I do fear that Al Sistani staying silent during this brutal aggression against Fallujah will create a barrier between the Sunni and Shia. His silence is very unfortunate because the Sunni's are seeing his silence as collaboration with the occupation forces. That will not go over very well in Iraq's future.

Jim, the invasion of Iraq has been declared "illegal" (and against the U.N. Charter) by Kofi Annan.

I would recommend watching this documentary to get a glimpse of what its like inside of Iraq. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1042.htm


Midnitesun
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since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647
Gaia
11 posted 2004-11-13 05:55 PM


Rowley, thank you for the video link. I wish this reply had been incorporated within your original post. Your reception might have been better. I happen to agree, this war is an illegal invasion by the US, and the current situation endangers everyone, the resistance, the military, the whole world. For the polarization and hatred against Americans and Israelis is being fed by this disaster.
I feel very badly for the Iraqui people shown in this video, and also, for Americans and foreigners that are being executed.
This type of video is not what the major US media or the government want anyone to see, as you cannot watch it without feeling a strong sympathy for the resistance, which is growing daily. But I won't stand and wave anyone's flag on either side. The whole of humanity is suffering from this, far more than some who voted for Bush want to admit. Don't count on many welcoming your POV, though in part, I do agree, people who stand up and fight for their rights are to honored.  
Having said that, I know I will get some flack from a handful of people at Pips, but so be it. I'm not the one being shot at, this time, though I lived in the Middle East for a year and remember the sound of the Katyusha rockets, and saw a bus blowup as the one I was on left the Tel Aviv bus terminal.
May everyone's personal Allah protect his/her family, and may we find a way to end this horrid conflict.  

Balladeer
Administrator
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
12 posted 2004-11-13 07:10 PM


"far more than some who voted for Bush want to admit."

We can speak for ourselves, Kacey, thanks.

Midnitesun
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Gaia
13 posted 2004-11-13 08:06 PM


LOL, of course YOU can and do, Mike.
Me too.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
14 posted 2004-11-13 11:43 PM


I begin to see the light
and grieve as Rowley must
that so few Americans have been
so far killed which can only encourage
and prolong their activity.


[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (11-14-2004 02:06 AM).]

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648

15 posted 2004-11-14 11:30 AM


Well, by golly, if Kofi Annan has declared something illegal, then it must be so!
ice
Member Elite
since 2003-05-17
Posts 3404
Pennsylvania
16 posted 2004-11-14 01:56 PM


­The signature of who ever signed the original charter-document (As a representative of the United States) is a swearing of allegiance , and a promise to honor, by following the rules and conditions of the United Nations Security Council..

That, or those signatures, state agreement with its (the U.N.S.C.) procedures and wording...

The words on the documents prove the illegality of the invasion....

Annan is only a talking head, that spoke for the document..

Peace-----------ice
         ><>

­­
I suggest that those who oppose the U.N. make appeal for our withdrawal from that organization, especially if they feel that we need to continue disobeying the rules we agreed to follow when we signed our names...
­­
­

­­
­

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648

17 posted 2004-11-14 08:35 PM


Oh, I have, ice, and I will continue to do so.


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
18 posted 2004-11-14 08:47 PM


ice,

“I suggest that those who oppose the U.N. make appeal for our withdrawal from that organization, especially if they feel that we need to continue disobeying the rules we agreed to follow when we signed our names...”

As should our betters the French
who didn’t bother regarding the Ivory Coast


Rowley
Junior Member
since 2001-04-07
Posts 30

19 posted 2004-11-14 09:33 PM


Before you shake hands with an American, be sure to ask who they voted for!
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA
20 posted 2004-11-14 10:01 PM


Your intelligence shines in your last message..as does your credibility.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
21 posted 2004-11-17 12:32 PM



"How courageous!"


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4018335.stm


"True Patriots.

Respect!
Don't give in."

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
22 posted 2004-11-19 01:12 PM


Rowley:

You wrote:

quote:
Jim, the invasion of Iraq has been declared "illegal" (and against the U.N. Charter) by Kofi Annan.


Just curious about whether this causes you to rethink your position on Kofi Annan's declaration.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041119/wl_afp/un_annan_041119115027

Assuming the Secretary General has the unilateral authority to declare a national action "illegal" (which he does not, by the way - this requires a UN resolution, unless I'm mistaken), does Kofi Annan's apparent propensity for corruption impugn the veracity of his claims?

Jim

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
23 posted 2004-11-19 07:24 PM


Noah,

“The Iraqis have lost over 100,000 of their own citizens, “

Where did you get this estimate.  I just heard on the News Hour
with Jim Lehrer that estimates of Iraqi deaths both military
and civilian since the war began are 20,000.


John

Mysteria
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British Columbia, Canada
24 posted 2004-11-19 08:29 PM


Iraq Body Count:
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/

Alicat
Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094
Coastal Texas
25 posted 2004-11-19 09:09 PM


Interesting link, Mysteria.  Did some reading there and one thing they don't do is differentiate between U.S. caused fatalities, Iraqi military (under Saddam) caused fatalities, and terrorist caused fatalities.  I get the feeling though that with that site, all three would be summed up and placed squarely on the U.S.'s doorstep.

Since they like doing body counts, when will the tally from Saddam's regime be posted?  On second thought, prolly never since we are still finding mass grave sites, and will most likely never find them all.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
26 posted 2004-11-19 09:10 PM


Noah,

“The Lancet study's headline figure of "100,000" excess deaths is a probabilistic projection from a small number of reported deaths - most of them from aerial weaponry - in a sample of 988 households to the entire Iraqi population. Only those actual, war-related deaths could be included in our count.”


http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/

“Only those actual, war-related deaths could be included in our count.”

Which is substantially lower.

The article goes on about the flaws in the Lancet study's headline figure.

John


Rowley
Junior Member
since 2001-04-07
Posts 30

27 posted 2004-11-22 02:24 PM


Huan Yi,
The incident regarding Margaret Hassan is very unfortunate and very sad. She has become a victim of US aggression. Lets not forget that Mrs. Hassan was a Brit who had lived in Iraq under Saddam Hussein  for the past 30 years unscathed. Now look at Iraq. Unfortunately, since the majority of Americans did nothing to prevent our government from starting wars of aggression on Iraq & Afghanistan, the consequences are disastrous. And lets also not forget that there would be no such thing as an Iraq resistance if the US had not attacked Iraq. The US has created this atrocity. My heart goes out to Mrs. Hassan and her family, and I regret that I didn't have the power to stop this war of aggression and save her life.
I pity the Iraqi's.
The weak are always courageous when they decide to stand up to the strong. We are all aware of the comparison in strength between the US and Iraq. Iraq did not have a navy nor an airforce to even have a fighting chance against the super power of the world.
How courageous the resistance is!
Keep it up, so the US government will think twice before bringing the same atrocity to Iran!
How many more Margaret Hassan's are in Iran that we will have to mourn about sometime soon?
Jim, I have read your article and have seen the reports about corruption on behalf Kofi Annan and his leadership. I have witnessed that Kofi Annan has not been much of a "YES-man" for the US Government. I often wonder if the west is trying to ruin his image in any way so they can eventually get him replaced in the U.N. with someone who will say what the US wants to hear.  Seeing that the US government is the strongest militarily and economically in the UN, is it possible the US could succeed in having him replaced with a YES-man? Or is this just simply conspiracy?

Rowley
Junior Member
since 2001-04-07
Posts 30

28 posted 2004-11-22 02:42 PM


The Life and Mysterious Murder of Margaret Hassan
By Ghali Hassan in Baghdad
11/22/04

Just before the US-Britain assault on Iraq in March 2003, Margaret Hassan had urged the UN and the British Parliament against the war. She told them: “The Iraqi people are already living through a terrible emergency”, she said. “They do not have the resources to withstand an additional crisis brought about by military action”. According to many people who knew her, Margaret Hassan hated the sanctions and the US-Britain wars against Iraq.

Fluent in Arabic and very aware of the devious and corrupt politics of the West, she was a strong voice for the Iraqi children who are the first victims of US-Britain states terrorism. Margaret Hassan was unapologetic in her opposition to the sanctions and the war against Iraq. She was very popular in Iraq and was loved by the Iraqi children. I know that myself. The Iraqi people are very generous to and very respectful of foreigners, especially those who converted to Islam.

Full article: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7345.htm

[This message has been edited by Rowley (11-22-2004 03:33 PM).]

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