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The Big Bang

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Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


0 posted 11-06-2004 12:53 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Muslim Fundamentalists, (we really havenít as
yet come up with a neutral way of distinguishing
them), are consciously and with premeditation
sacrificing their lives in suicide attacks in different
parts of the world.   And each is personally
answering a serious question:  What would you die for?

So, what would be your answer,  (and please, something
more than family and friends, they would too)?

John

Midnitesun
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1 posted 11-06-2004 10:29 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Well, not for religion or politics. I suppose rescuing someone who was not family or friend in an emergencey, though the INTENT would NEVER be for myself to die while rescuing.
Guess I wouldn't pass the firefighter or police tests, not to mention the military reqs.
Mysteria
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2 posted 11-06-2004 01:32 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Nothing!  I love life too much and you said I could not use family as my answer
Ron
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3 posted 11-06-2004 01:41 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

There's a big difference between risking your life and giving your life, and I honestly don't think either can accurately be answered in the abstract. Until you actually find yourself IN a situation, how you'll react is, at best, a guess.
Mysteria
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4 posted 11-06-2004 01:55 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Well now that you say it that way ... I have risked my life a couple of times actually, but giving it is a whole different matter.  My answer would have to be as Ron suggests, until the situation arises I have NO idea what I would die for.  If you had given me examples, then asked if I would actually die for them, then I could answer more constructively.  As it was, the only thing that came to my mind I would actually be willing to give my life for, you stipulated I could not use, see?  
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


5 posted 11-06-2004 02:38 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ron,

ďThere's a big difference between risking your life and giving your life, and I honestly don't think either can accurately be answered in the abstract. Until you actually find yourself IN a situation, how you'll react is, at best, a guess.Ē

I have to disagree.  I think the fundamentalists like
the Kamikazes  are acting consciously and with
premeditation in a process that may take a
relatively long time, (unlike jumping on a grenade.).
They intend no coming back.

John

P.S.  This seems to get back to the problem
of Western incomprehension.  In the Pacific,
Americans believed Japanese suicide pilots
were drugged, chained in their cockpits,
mindlessly trained from birth, (not wholly inaccurate),
and/or went to their deaths in monkish robes.

Midnitesun
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6 posted 11-06-2004 03:01 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

John, I think it would be better if you qualified your statements with words like 'some' or a 'few' because it's almost never an 'all' scenario, where people act/react as a homogeneous unit as your words often imply. That's nothing short of stereotyping, lumping and dumping, which I don't think you mean to condone or encourage in your posts. Or am I wrong about your intent?
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


7 posted 11-06-2004 03:27 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Kacy,

Fine, Iím speaking of those who have
deliberately  died; those who are planning,
training to deliberately die.  Yes, the rest,
are exempt from consideration, ( I said
we donít have a neutral way of distinguishing
them).   How do you compare?  For what,
(apart from family and friends), would you
drive a bomb laden car into a building
or a bomb laden plane into a ship?

John

P.S.  I am going to exploit this opportunity,
(pig that I am), to speculate
that much of the difference associates
with whether one truly, (despite bows
and words), believes in an afterlife,
and/or believes there are things more important
than life.


P.S.S.

Apart from family and friends, of course...
As you may or may not know,
the Nazis used to perform experiments
on pain tolerance versus social values.  
In one, that I read of, they connected
a mother and daughter in such a way
that they could inflict excruciating pain
on the other rather than experience it themselves.
Guess what they found out.
Midnitesun
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8 posted 11-06-2004 06:18 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Guess you'll have to do your speculating at someone else's expense, John.  I've grown weary, wary, and leery of your approach to socio-economic-religious-historical-political issues.
Denise
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9 posted 11-07-2004 06:20 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't know what the Nazis discovered, John, but I know the decision I would make in that mother/daughter situation. And I think it has more to do with genuine love than anything else, even my belief in an afterlife and that there are more important things than life itself.

What would I be willing to die for, other than family and friends? I guess I would be willing to die for freedom. To me it isn't just a word, or something that people should have learn to live without, under any circumstance.

I heard a news report that before the women in Afghanistan went to the polls to cast their vote in their first ever free election, they went through their cleansing and dress ritual in preparation for death, for death is what they were expecting could realistically happen to them for their actions and were preparing for it. That spoke volumes to me about the importance of freedom to them, the value they placed on it.
Ron
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Michigan, US


10 posted 11-07-2004 12:11 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I have to disagree. I think the fundamentalists like the Kamikazes  are acting consciously and with premeditation in a process that may take a relatively long time, (unlike jumping on a grenade.). They intend no coming back.

How many suiciders do you think don't make the final leap, John? How many decide not to get on the plane or feel compelled to pull up the nose at the last moment? Do you honestly believe more are willing to die than not?

The ones you're talking about, which are typically the only ones you've heard about, have consciously put themselves into a position where they have to make a hard decision. And that alone takes courage and commitment. But they won't, and I believe they can't, make that hard decision until actually faced with it.

And many, many who thought they could will find they can't.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


11 posted 11-07-2004 11:16 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ron,

From my reading about the Japanese Kamikazes,
particularly The Nobility of Failure by Ivan I Morris,
I have to disagree, and this comes back to my
comments about Western incomprehension.  Our
disbelief is grounded in our own cultural valuations
even in the face of contradicting evidence.  Your
incredulity is like that of most Americans apropos
of the Kamikazes, and yet the planes came on.
There was no shortage of volunteers.

Also look at the history of the Pacific campaigns
on the ground.  Until Okinawa, Japanese soldiers
demonstrated in overwhelming numbers a preference
for death  over defeat let alone surrender, (and even
in Okinawa the prisoners were less than ten percent).
This experience played an important role in the
decisions leading to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

John
  

 
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