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Passions in Poetry

be careful, it's about to hit the fan again

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Tim
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50 posted 11-07-2004 04:59 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim



Brad, I don't really see the apocalypse occuring within the next four years.

I think the big problem is going to occur in thirty to forty years when the oil in the middle east dries up and the various despots and dictators cannot rely on oil to keep themselves in power.

Churchill some 60 years ago forewarned the danger of Islamic fundamentalism.  For the last sixty years the problem has been seething below the surface and is now bubbling to the top.

I think the world can probably handle the bubbling in the short term. The issue is whether we are going to continue the course of the last half century or seek an alternative course of action to alter the path on which we appear to be heading.

That scares the bejeebers out of me.  Not Bush nor Kerry.

Brad
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51 posted 11-07-2004 05:23 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Melodrama? Me?

I wasn't the one who posted an article by Hal Lindsay.

Brad
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52 posted 11-07-2004 05:25 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
I feel pretty much the same way about free speech, Brad.


Really? So if a person screams fire in a theater and there is no fire, that's okay?
Midnitesun
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53 posted 11-07-2004 06:34 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Thank you, ice, for highlighting those documents.
It's obvious there will always be differing opinions as to the rules and regs of gun ownership. As for the politics of it? I would sure like to see everyone stick more to facts, less to rhetoric. Some days it seems that he who shouts loudest with the biggest pocket book wins. Feel free to interpret that any way you choose.
It's always been my assumption that the NRA IS made up mostly of right-wing oriented conservative elements. But since I personally know three registered gun toting members of the NRA who are liberal Voters? We get carried away with titles in this country, and both extremes of the political spectrum get the press coverage political  mainstreamers don't get.
It's always been my view that more innocents die than bad guys when homeowners keep loaded guns around. It seems there is no end to what children will do to 'play' bang-bang you're dead, and when adults get angry? If there is a loaded gun around, it's often used. I have no problem with hunting for sustenance. But no one can convince me that handguns, armor piercing bullets and AK47's and the like are for hunting deer, not even for bear protection. I know several people who keep handguns for self-protection in the city, but I've found that the 'bad guys' are rarely the ones who receiving end of the bullets, and those guns are frequently stolen during robberies.
I think when we discuss weapons and ammo,  we need to be specific and truthful, as John Kerry was in his legislative arguments.
Ron
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54 posted 11-07-2004 09:29 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Really? So if a person screams fire in a theater and there is no fire, that's okay?

Brad, the recognition that no freedom is (or ever can be) absolute is hardly a reason to condemn enthusiasm for freedom.

While I don't share the NRA's particular zeal, I understand it. I think it would be a real shame if you had to go through a five-day registration process every time you wanted to swear at a new politician, just so we could prevent some idiot from yelling fire in a crowded theatre. Such a cure might actually help eliminate the problem, too. But the problems it caused in return would be no less real.
Brad
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55 posted 11-08-2004 03:12 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

And yet, don't you think something's wrong when Ron supports a screaming fire in a theater banning law and the website says:

Carnell is against Freedom of Speech
Tim
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56 posted 11-08-2004 08:27 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Some would suggest that is what is happening with the Patriot Act Brad.

It again boils down to one's views and perspectives. No matter one's intellect or level of common sense, emotion and ideology play a significant role in how we view what we perceive as a position of the other side, notwithstanding our protestations that we are in the middle or independent.

And I as recall, there have been a few complaints over the years concerning Ron's infringement of 1st amendment rights.

Are those complaints valid?  I don't think so, but I was not the one effected or in some cases offended.  I do however recognize Ron exercises a degree of censorship far more than I would accept or tolerate outside of Passions if government exercised the censorship, notwithstanding the fact I would strongly disagree with the content and how the statements were made.

Had Gore been elected president and after 9-11, the Patriot Act been implemented, would the concerns of the left have been as vocal?
That is where introspection takes place.

Clearly we need to fight to protect our constitutional rights which form the foundation of our country. However, we should recognize partisanship enters into our views on even those issues.  




Midnitesun
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57 posted 11-08-2004 10:16 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

quote:
Had Gore been elected president and after 9-11, the Patriot Act been implemented, would the concerns of the left have been as vocal?

Yep, I would have squealed equally loud, as I feel it's one of the most poorly worded and downright dangerous documents we've ever had foisted on the 'free' American public. But I don't believe it would have been signed by Gore, anyway.

As for the censorship here in Pips? It's Ron's house, and even if I don't always agree, I respect his rights to boot the guest out and close the door whenever they offend him. But he rarely does that, and I feel he is mostly beyond reproach when it comes to fairness issues. Most of the time, though perhaps, not always.
Tim
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58 posted 11-08-2004 09:16 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

To the right, that would be a left wing extremist position as to the Patriot Act.  

In any event, that view would appear to be to the same level of commitment as that held by the NRA in regards to what they view as infringements of their 2nd Amendment rights.  

It is a matter of where you sit on the political fence and those out at the end of the corral have a tendency to believe the opposite side of the corral is where the back end of the horse resides.  But the saddle sits in the middle of the horse.

Bush didn't pass the Patriot Act.  Congress did with 99 Senators in support including Kerry and Edwards.  I suppose one can speculate, but I really don't see Gore vetoing the Patriot Act if he had been President.  But what the hey, who knows.

The right lived through 8 years of Clinton and the left will live through 8 years of Bush.  Then the next generation will believe the country is irrevocably divided when we elect our first post boomer president at which time we will all still retain our constitutional rights being allowed to speak freely and own guns.
Brad
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59 posted 11-08-2004 10:07 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Yeah, but will social security still be there?

Clinton wasn't a leftist by the way, he was a centrist. Doesn't anybody remember workfare and NAFTA?
Tim
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60 posted 11-08-2004 11:09 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

I would call Clinton a triangilationist.
In simplest terms, he was going to do what it took politically.

By the same token, if you ask a true conservative, they think Bush sold them out on a lot of issues first term and is a centrist.

Clinton and the "Contract for America" did a couple of things together that ended up positive for America but neither is going to give credit to the other.

Social Security is in trouble no matter what happens because it is viewed as something it was never meant to be and something is going to have to be done because of population shifts.  Using it as a scare tactic probably isn't the solution though.

Midnitesun
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61 posted 11-08-2004 11:36 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Clinton as a triangle LOL, what a funny image I just got. Sorry. Had to laugh a minute, and it felt good after all the months of political overload from all the party animals.
Tim, I have always been left of center. It's where I am comfortable, and I've never felt any need to apologize or see anything differently. In fact, sometimes, I feel I am dangerously too close to the middle, and not paying enough attention to what is going on in the rest of the real world. Because every time the whole planet comes into focus, I see just how parochial and narrow-minded our political spectrum really is. And even if it's more popular to go with the middle, I cannot in good conscience.
Guess I'll always be on the 'liberal' end of the comet, especially when freedom of speech and the right to dissent are at stake, as I believe they are with that (un)Patriot Act.
Oh, since you don't know me very well, maybe you didn't read in some previous posts about my ancestry. My mother's maiden name is Thornton. MY family tree includes Dr Matthew Thornton, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, representing state of New Hampshire. Great great great(?) Grandpa Matt never intended for me to be silent about my rights, and would roll over in his grave if he knew his legacy was not being honored. That means something to me, and keeps me grounded whenever someone suggests I am politically off-center.
Tim
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62 posted 11-08-2004 11:45 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Isn't anything wrong with being liberal.  Isn't anything wrong with being a conservative.  

Over the years I have known quite a few of both persuasions, including politicians at all levels of government.  Most are pretty nice well meaning folks.

I've been accused of being a lot of things over the years and a good politician or a conservative or liberal probably aren't some of them.  I came from down by the rail mills and have had the occasion to meet up with folks from the old neighborhood over the years.

Once, a lady I knew growing up told me she was going to vote for me.  Her son, who I had sent to prison asked, how could you vote for the B#$#$#.  The mother replied, Tim may be a B#(*&$, but at least he's our B#I$(&.  In twenty-five years I have never lost an election, I guess that means I am pretty good at being a $*&^#%.

Midnitesun
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63 posted 11-09-2004 12:00 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Then you must be making a majority of your constituents happy. Congratulations, perhaps you are one of those rare political creatures who doesn't have to split the baby down the middle in order to maintain justice and equality in your community.
So how come you aren't running for the big job?
Alicat
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64 posted 11-09-2004 09:15 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Easy. Tim's not totally insane. No sane person would ever want the Big Job.
Brad
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65 posted 11-09-2004 09:45 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Since when is stating the truth a scare tactic?

What do you think privatization means?

Hint: It means dismantling a government program.

Wait, did I misunderstand Bush again? Did he not say he wants privatization?

Hell, I thought the Right would cheer such things.

Midnitesun
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66 posted 11-09-2004 10:18 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

aha, so you admit the Pres is insane
Tim
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67 posted 11-09-2004 10:57 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Lost me on that one Brad.  I don't know if I am supposed to be the "right" or if I am not supposed to be smart enough to understand what privatization means, but I do appreciate the hint.

Bush and Kerry both spoke a lot of what they indicated were truths that depending on your perspective can be viewed as scare tactics.

Neither the Democrats nor Republicans have ever tried to use Social Security as a scare tactic.  Now that is a truth for you.
Brad
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68 posted 11-09-2004 11:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

"You probably think this song is about you"

I'm not asking what you want to happen. I'm not asking whether or not Kerry or Bush used scare tactics.

Did Bush say he wants to privatize social security, all or in part?

Is that really a difficult question?

If he said it, that means he wants to dismantle social security, all or in part.
Midnitesun
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69 posted 11-10-2004 12:42 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

"You probably think this song is about you"
Now I'm going to be singing that song all night long!
"when I was still quite naive"
LOL
Tim
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70 posted 11-10-2004 08:29 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

No Brad, that is not what you asked, you have to stay on point or be more specific in what you mean.

Using your logic, Clinton dismantled welfare.  When the contract for america proposed welfare reforms, what was the view of the left?  Welfare reform is now one of the cornerstone achievements of Clinton's legacy and rightfully so.

I suppose you have read the entirety of the President's proposals concerning Social Security and how and when it is to be implemented.

You say dismantle, others would say strengthen, and others say reform.  Some of the suggested reforms as to vesting, women and contributions seem fairly liberal to me, and I think a good idea.  

In the end, S.S. is enough of a sacred cow, whatever reforms are probably needed aren't going to be fully implemented.  What are your suggestions to make S.S. viable for future generations?

[This message has been edited by Tim (11-10-2004 11:08 AM).]

Midnitesun
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71 posted 11-10-2004 09:35 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Talk about a meandering thread.
Human Services reform, encompassing Welfare, Social Security, Medicaire...
that's one helluva large umbrella that deserves a totally differrent thread from this one, which has strayed completely away from the intended national security issues and terrorist threats. The title still fits, but is someone ready to begin another thread, willing to take on these serious issues of reform as an alley topic? I've already got 36 hours of work on my list for today.
Tim
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72 posted 11-10-2004 01:29 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

I apologize for the meandering, you can have your thread back.  *smile*  Good luck in the work.
Brad
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73 posted 11-10-2004 09:24 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Sorry for the meandering too.

But I don't think reform and privatization are the same thing. One is putting a program in the hands of private companies, the other is changing the way a program is done. So, no, I disagree that Clinton dismantled welfare, he changed it. And you're right the Left was against those changes.

If he changes the system, then we can call it reform. If he puts it in the hands of private companies, he's dismantled it.

If you think privatization will help people, then that's what you should argue, not that I'm using scare tactics.

My solution: a national salary

Midnitesun
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74 posted 11-10-2004 10:19 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Brad, how much will I get in my national salary package? Seriously, I'm eyeball deep in resumes and applications and cover letters trying to find a job here in a seriously depressed job market. NO income now, and savings wiped out as of this month. And not much of a safety net these days for someone like myself who is competing with all those fresh young recent grads.
Anyway, I haven't really had any time to think about the health care system, and haven't had ANY insurance for three years now. I finally got my 17 year old on a policy last week.
But iF you're over 19 and under 60, you're out of luck when it comes to any medical insurance or assistance, even if you've paid into this amazing system one way or another since you were 18. Yippee, I only have two more years to wait until they say I can qualify. After searching all possibilities, I finally came up with a policy that will be affordable if I get a job, where the State/Feds will pay up to 95% of the premium once I find someone who'll cover me. Sounds great, eh?
Catch 22...most insurance carriers want to eliminate anything relating to pre-existing conditions. A biggie for me, with well-documented high blood pressure and two leaky heart valves, not to mention herniated disks and 'mild' arthritis symptoms. *sigh* So if you guys have some ideas that will work, I'd be more than happy to babysit this new thread whenever I can. I don't even care what they call it or who runs it anymore, as long as there is SOMETHING reasonable for the millions like myself who find themselves with no medical coverage of any kind, and a failing job market to boot.
Hey, when can I sign up for my Social Security checks? LOL, Even though I don't believe the $$$ per month I've earned will pay the rent these days.
Howz that for a running rant? LOL
 
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