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Passions in Poetry

be careful, it's about to hit the fan again

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Tim
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25 posted 11-05-2004 10:54 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

The NRA obviously feels otherwise, but what the hey, I have no real desire to debate NRA positions, just point out the fact other than the goose hunt which went over like a snipe hunt, Kerry is viewed by those who have an interest in gun ownership as being a foe rather than a friend.

Bottom line, Kerry's anti-NRA position in the Senate was an issue to a rather significant political force.
Brad
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26 posted 11-05-2004 11:31 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Still doesn't answer the question.

After four years of Kerry, would SEA still own a gun?

If the answer is yes, that's my point. If the answer is no, you're either being disingenuous or you're not living in the real world.

hush
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27 posted 11-05-2004 11:56 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

BTW sea, I wasn't trying to imply that you don't practice gun safety in the home. And I also thought the goose shooting was a joke... a rather mean one, too- that is, if you're a goose.

But I'm with Brad... who's it going to hurt if you have to wait a few extra days to get a gun? I'd rather have to wait than have a shoddy checks system where criminals slip thru the cracks. And if you need a gun so badly that you just have to have it in two days or less... I have to wonder what the urgency is... it kind of conerns me. And that vote about the national park? Well doesn't it just suck that people vote to make a natural space into a wilife preserve? Sorry, ain't gonna be no more animal killing on these here grounds.

Oh, and the NRA saved the best for last:

'Voted to commend the Million Mom March in 2000 for their march on Washington that included calls for gun owner licensing, gun registration and other restrictions on law-abiding gun owners.'

What kind of a monster would vote to commend a million mom march that was intended (solely, I'm sure) to screw over gun owners?! I'm sure it had nothing to do with concern for safety...

To be fair, there are also things I disageed with. The NRA had every right to back Bush publically- but that's politics for ya. Gun owners should not be subject ro random, unwarranted searches any more than Arab-Americans should be subjected to unwarranted searches.

But do I think guns would ahve banned under him? No- no more than I think abortion (on the whole) will be banned under Bush. It's too polar, and too divided an issue, Kerry might have been able to pass limits, just as Bush has passed limits on the gestational age of fetus that can be legally aborted, but to outlaw guns entirely? I don't think Kerry wants to outlaw them- he might, but I don't think so- but even if he did, I think a large enough majority would stand up and say "No, you really can't do that."

I'm terrified of guns and hate to even have them in my sight, and even I would stand up and say that.
Alicat
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28 posted 11-06-2004 12:02 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Well, that's how I stopped one would-be intruder without even firing a shot when I lived in Abilene, TX.  Pump shotguns have a very distinctive sound when a shell is chambered.  Saw the sillouette on the shade testing windows, saw it freeze, saw it quickly vanish when I chambered.
Tim
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29 posted 11-06-2004 12:03 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

“Where did Kerry say he would ban guns?

He didn't.

What election were you paying attention to?”

Just goes to show folks can look at the same thing and come to completely different conclusions.  Disingenuous, nope, don’t think so, I was making a point you do not wish to concede.  I still think my point is valid.  If you do not want to believe Kerry’s position on guns was contrary to the NRA’s and viewed by the NRA as restriction of their right to own guns, then you need to call the NRA disingenous or perhaps ignorant.

Are you saying Kerry is a strong proponent of the right to bear arms as interpreted under the second amendment by the NRA?

Are you trying to say Kerry’s record in the Senate as to the right to bear arms was not an issue in the campaign?

Do you think Kerry went hunting because he felt the urge to kill a goose?

Apparently we did pay attention to different elections.

And am I living in the real world?  Yep, the last time I checked.

And if you specifically want your new question answered, I don’t think Kerry would have been able to muster the Congressional  support to place restrictions on the right to bear arms, although I think philosophically he would have desired that result if he had been elected.  I think that is a fair assessment in the world I inhabit and I don’t even own any guns nor I have a desire to own any.


Midnitesun
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30 posted 11-06-2004 12:10 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Whew, I guess I muddled this morning's post somewhat. Sorry for the confusion. That'll teach me to stay up too late and get up too early. LOL. But the main point was about the news media, and staying alert. There is a very loud rumble in the Arab press that started late last night or early this morning, and even though I read it at the crack of dawn in some ME news sources, it still wasn't being mentioned here. This isn't the first time I've found what I consider important breaking news totally ignored by the American press, or at least not reported at net speed. C'mon, if I can get the news this fast, why can't Associated Press? Google? all those sources should have had something. These new terrorist threats are real, not imaginary.
They said the same thing bin Laden said just before the election, that it didn't make much difference as to who won...except that there was a HOPE that a change in administrations MIGHT bring a change of direction.
But do you feel any safer now? Not me, I think it's going to get worse long before it gets better. Hope I'm proven wrong.
Earlier in the day I watched a series of short videotaped interviews of the Iraqui insurgents in Fallujah, and they said the only thing they think about when they go out to fight the Americans is that they are doing a holy job for Allah, that the infidels must die. I don't know how we can get past that mindset. But I do know, not all Muslims feel that way, and I have had many Muslim friends in the US and in the ME who do not support the bin Laden's of this world, and who do NOT wish to push Israel into the sea.
So, I apologize for any confusion regarding the quoted story, but I wanted to make sure everyone stays alert, and to remind you that you cannot count on getting all the info you need to CYA from just one or two sources.

As for guns for protection in every home? That's a whole other thread. After having attended three different funerals of innocents killed by accidental discharges from loaded weapons in a home? No thanks, I'll not be needing one in my home, though if I lived in Iraq, I might re-consider.
Huan Yi
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31 posted 11-06-2004 12:25 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

“Earlier in the day I watched a series of short videotaped interviews of the Iraqui insurgents in Fallujah, and they said the only thing they think about when they go out to fight the Americans is that they are doing a holy job for Allah, that the infidels must die. I don't know how we can get past that mindset. But I do know, not all Muslims feel that way, and I have had many Muslim friends in the US and in the ME who do not support the bin Laden's of this world, and who do NOT wish to push Israel into the sea.”

How many Germans were Nazis in the time of Hitler?
Not many really.  It doesn’t take many, and once in
control they can get the majority to live with and do many
things, because at any point of opposition they can
bring overwhelming power and terror to bear.
It's one thing to oppose at the expense of your own
life, but something else, even for the bravest,
when you whole family is subject to the blade.

Brad
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32 posted 11-06-2004 12:46 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

It logically follows that Tom Delay, dubya, and the NRA want AK47's to be owned by drug dealers. After all, it is their right.

But even Hush is willing to consider that Kerry, in his fantasy world, would want all guns banned.

Why?

So Bush wants to be a dictator, in his deepest heart of hearts.

After all, while the both of you have only intuition to follow, he said it.



Balladeer
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33 posted 11-06-2004 12:56 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Kacey, I heard that on our news station at 8 this morning while driving to work so it wasn't a secret here. They didn't mention a "loud rumble" in the Arab world like you have but perhaps you have better information....yes, I think everyone tries to stay alert, warned or not.
Tim
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34 posted 11-06-2004 09:16 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

I do not begrudge your rabid anti-Bush feelings Brad, (I personally believe the American system of politics performs best when there are near equal and passionate parties),but your comments are heading a bit out into left field.

If you want to play semantics on the issue of ban versus restrictions, feel free to do so.  The fact remains, whether you support his position or not, Kerry has voted and is viewed by a significant portion of the population as anti-gun.

It was an issue in the campaign and Kerry obviously was aware of the fact.  That is the point I was making and it is clear you will not concede what I view as readily discernible and not an intuitive thought process.

btw, you did not answer my questions.
Midnitesun
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35 posted 11-06-2004 09:37 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

LOL, Mike, actually, no one had to (or did except for me)use those words, all you really have to do is read what's already out there. It's on the airwaves and in the written media as well as videos. The 'rumble' has been there for a very long time, and is getting louder.
I'm impressed you heard it, for not one of the most poplular internet 'instant' news sites or front pages even mentioned it.
does that mean they (1)didn't consider it newsworthy or reliable (2) they just didn't hear about it yet (3) they guessed we already had that figured out?
Just CYA, we still need our Passion's fixes daily.
Balladeer
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36 posted 11-06-2004 03:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

My guess would be number one, Kacey. Anon threats by anon people aren't that newsworth, I suppose, except for here in Florida where they can't tell the difference!
Midnitesun
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37 posted 11-06-2004 04:16 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Mike, don't kid yourself, the Abu-Hafs al-Masri brigade is for real. Abu-Hafs was al Qaida's training commander. Abu-Hafs daughter married bin Laden's son. Abu-Haf was a core member of the Jihad that assasinated Anwar al-Sadat in 1981. and though Abu-Haf was killed in a US bombing raid near Kabul in 2001, his followers vowed to carry on, and named this brigade of terrorists in his honor.
Anon? hardly. And this group is only one of many factions, and has been linked to many attacks in the last three years.
But I don't expect most Americans to know about this, most don't read the Arab news reports. I just thought I'd fill you in, but if no one wants the info, they don't have to read it. But don't kid yourself about whether or not it is real, or that it is of no consequence.
Again, stay alert....even in Florida, maybe ESPECIALLY in Florida.
Tim
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38 posted 11-06-2004 04:45 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

The particular brigade in question takes credit for a lot of activities.  If I recall right, they claimed causing the blackout in the NE some time ago.

I do not in any way shape or form deny the danger that faces not only the U.S., but the world as a whole, however, if one has to take the American media with a grain of salt, the Arab media would require a couple salt lick blocks.

One has to live their lives and be vigilant.
Midnitesun
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39 posted 11-06-2004 05:02 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

LOL, that's a very funny analogy, Tim. And that is one explanation, perhaps, for the 'news' not being news? It's true, they and a couple other groups have taken credit for things they didn't do. But I'm more concerned with what they did do and still intend to do, whether or not these are idle threats, or real. We can't afford to ignore any of it, but of course, I don't suggest you dedicate all your personal time to following this stuff. (That's what some other people are supposedly being paid to do.) But there is an information overload, and a short circuit point for many. That's exactly what some of these groups count on...our lack of attention, our misg-guided sense of security.
Anyway, I'll continue to post something new in this forum now and then, but it sure takes up a lot of my 'poetry' time. Shalom, Peace, and have a great day. CYA, it's dangerous everywhere these days.
More reasons you need to go to multiple sources, then look at everything through a screen.


*
and this, from yet another source: dated Nov 6, 2004
BEIRUT (AP) - Prominent Saudi religious scholars have called on Iraqis to support insurgents waging holy war against the U.S.-led coalition forces, saying fighting the occupation was a duty and a right.
In an open letter to the Iraqi people and posted on the Internet on Saturday, 26 Saudi scholars and religious preachers stressed that armed attacks on U.S. troops and their allies in Iraq were "legitimate" resistance.
The statement came as U.S. troops, backed by air and artillery power, were gearing up for a major assault on the militant stronghold of Fallujah.
The scholars - some of whom have been criticized in the past for their views - issued a fatwa, or religious edict, prohibiting Iraqis from offering any support for military operations carried out by U.S. forces against rebel strongholds.
"Fighting the occupiers is a duty for all those who are able," said the letter. "It is a jihad (holy war) to push back the assailants. . . . Resistance is a legitimate right. A Muslim must not inflict harm on any resistance man or inform about them. Instead, they should be supported and protected."
Among the 26 scholars who signed the letter are influential Sunni Muslim clerics, Sheik Safar al-Hawali, Sheik Nasser al-Omar, Sheik Salman al-Awdah, Sheik Sharif Hatem al-Aouni and Sheik Awad al-Qarni.


[This message has been edited by Midnitesun (11-06-2004 06:08 PM).]

Brad
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40 posted 11-06-2004 09:54 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Tim, my point is that it's the other side whose playing this game.

At least I can still own a gun as opposed to a five day waiting list?

I'm veering to the left? Not at all, I am using the words as Bush used them (there can be no doubt to the interpretation, I do not have to bend words to suit my purposes). The only thing I've left out is insouciance.

Did he say the words? Yes. Did he mean them as he said them? Yes. Will he act on them? No.

That's a hell of a lot more evidence than most of the things being attributed to Kerry.

I don't begrudge people for voting for Bush. I don't begrudge people with being happy with the result. I'm upset, perhaps at myself more than anyone else, for not taking these off the cuff statements more seriously.

The NRA is a far right, extremist organization.

That's what it is. It is not mainstream, it has made no effort to understand the problem, it has made no effort to compromise it's stance. It doesn't feel that it has a position, it feels it is in possession of self-righteous truth.

That, by definition, is extremist.

It is simply a mistake to look at it any other way.
Tim
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41 posted 11-07-2004 01:08 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Is the NRA a conservative organization? yep...  a far right extremist organization?
Only to someone who is sitting on the left.
I wonder how many NRA members you know on a personal basis?

I recognize there are conservatives and there are liberals.  They both have their points and have a tendency in the political arena to take partial truths and extrapolate them into untruths.

On the whole, most politicians I have been acquainted with, both on a local and national level, no matter their political bent, are well meaning individuals who are attempting to do what they feel is right.
Interpretation of right or wrong is not so easy when you have consequences for your actions.

Right and wrong, and internet are real easy when you face no consequences for your pronouncments.

That would appear to be our difference.  I note no one responded to my view of the election I put forth in another thread which I do not find particularly surprising, since it requires introspection.

With no disrepect, I have no difficulty in understanding that anyone who thinks the NRA is an extremist right wing organization would hold the views you do as far as denying Kerry is anti-gun.

I just believe the silent majority does indeed exist and the silent majority is not particularly enthralled with either the left or the right.

The NRA is right of center on the gun issue and Kerry was on the left.  Depending on where you are on the political spectrum determines whether you agree with that evaluation.

Most generally, folks view themselves as personally being in the epicenter of the political universe and is why the left views anyone who supported Bush as right wing and the right views anyone who supported Kerry as a ultra liberal bent on destroying the fabric of America.

I suspect most Americans fall in the middle and recognize both sides, left and right play the game.
Ron
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42 posted 11-07-2004 02:16 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
That's what it is. It is not mainstream, it has made no effort to understand the problem, it has made no effort to compromise it's stance. It doesn't feel that it has a position, it feels it is in possession of self-righteous truth.

I feel pretty much the same way about free speech, Brad. And about unlawful search and detention. And the separation of church and state. Like your view of the NRA, I believe any compromise of those principals can only lead to an erosion of those principals.

I just wish I had their clout.
Denise
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43 posted 11-07-2004 06:25 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Tim,

I think this past election has shown that the silent majority has finally decided to speak out!
ice
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44 posted 11-07-2004 08:53 AM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

­
­­I am a hunter and a fisherman, have been so since I can remember, and as an adult have always had firearms in my house...I don't like the title of sportsman as I believe that killing things is not sport, but is much more serious that that title implies..

I see the NRA as an agent of the far right that is present in our society, at least they appear that way....I do not want them to represent my rights to own guns , they embarrass me, and more so frighten me as a legitimate gun owner.

That aside, I see that readers of this thread felt threatened by John Kerry's supposed stance on gun control during the recent campaign...Perhaps influenced by the NRA ads that ran in the later part of it...

These ads were full of distortions and lies, but were believed by those who did not research their content.

First of all the ad said..."John Kerry says he’s a sportsman, so why did he vote to ban deer hunting ammunition and vote 9 times to ban guns?"

The fact is Kerry did vote for a proposal to outlaw certain types of ammunition. On that proposal it states that

"rifle ammunition designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability" should be outlawed.

The last time I killed a deer, it was with my old Winchester 30-30 It died very quickly, and I did not have to use armor piercing bullets..What the NRA said in this part of the ad is pure bull...political spin.

The NRA or anyone that believes them must not have read the actual proposed bill...the exact language of the part that pertains to this matter ..its intent is to ban

SEC. 5. ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.
``(iii) a projectile that may be used in a handgun and that the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be capable of penetrating body armor; or

``(iv) a projectile for a centerfire rifle, designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability , that the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be more likely to penetrate body armor than standard ammunition of the same caliber.''

It goes on to say that Kerry..

"voted 9 times to ban guns?""

Six of the nine votes cited by the NRA were in favor of the 1994 assault-weapons ban.
The three other votes came in 1990 during consideration of an omnibus crime bill, and included an unsuccessful, early attempt to ban 12 specific assault weapons. The ban that later became law covered 19 specific weapons.

The ad further states...

"Why is Kerry sponsoring a bill in the Senate that would ban every semiautomatic shotgun and every pump shotgun?

"every" is a key word here and is an out and out lie...Far from banning all such weapons, the bill Kerry co-sponsored specifically exempted them..

"the ban "shall not apply to any firearm that--
(A) is manually operated by bolt, pump, level, or slide action ;
(B) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or
(C) is an antique firearm."

("The word "or"  shows that the exemption for pump or slide-action weapons applies independently of the other two exemptions for antique or inoperable weapons.)

As for semi automatic shotguns..it said it would ban any semi's with

"a folding or telescoping stock . . . a pistol grip . . . the ability to accept a detachable magazine, or . . . a fixed magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds."

Anyone who knows about shotguns must take from this that it meant the "Street Sweeper" types of semi's that were popular for crowd control in South Africa in the good old apartheid days...

The ad also contains a Kerry Quote

Kerry:" I think you ought to tax all ammunition. I think you ought to tax guns."

That was a 10 year old quote (CNN interview,Nov.7, 1993) and was put in the ad completely out of context of intention..The discussion was about a crime bill that was being proposed to the congress.

Kerry said he favored a punitive tax on what the interviewer described as "cop-killer" bullets designed to mushroom on impact. And he also said he favored "more" tax on ordinary ammunition, as well as the firearms that use them. The extra money was to be used to support the crime bill.

The word "more" here is very important...Kerry isn't currently proposing any new taxes on guns or ammunition.

Last statement in the ad...

"Kerry a sportsman? That dog don’t hunt. NRA-PVF is responsible for the content of this advertising."

"That dog don't hunt" something that Larry the cable guy might say?
I guess they have to appeal to the redneck crowd as well as more intelligent people concerned with this issue...

The ad is presented in the best Carl Rove tradition, distortions and out and out lies about the subject matter....spin spin, spin - it makes me dizzy...although I must admit that I found several distortions and a few lies in the Kerry ads....but he was engaged with his enemy and was fighting the psychological pounding of character assassination...The  flip flop, flip flop , crap of Mr. Rove..I think Kerry should not have joined the liars club, he may have lost by more, but he would have lost more honestly..

---------------ice/ford
     ><>


­
Tim
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45 posted 11-07-2004 09:19 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

And the responses of Ron and Ice in my opinion validate my position, especially ice.  
I have enjoyed the consistent theme throughout and now post election, if you were not for Kerry or have views inconsistent with the left you are an ignorant redneck.  If you support Kerry, you were intelligent.

It may well be that the base of the left is intelligent.  

I look at the socio-economic makeup of the left versus the right, or even the center, and I fail to see why everyone but the left is so ignorant.

As my dear departed grandfather always said, the best way to gain support for your position is call the other side an ignorant redneck, whoa... wait a second, that was Michael Moore, excuse me...

Those who sit in the middle often wonder how people who are so seemingly intelligent on "both" sides of the political spectrum can have such blinders on.


Brad
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46 posted 11-07-2004 09:25 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Don't pretend.

You may understand the position, but you don't really understand why.

Understanding begins with us.
Brad
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47 posted 11-07-2004 09:38 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

the apocalyse begins.


We have four years to stop it. What side are you on?

Sorry Tim, hate to ask the question?
ice
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48 posted 11-07-2004 10:36 AM       View Profile for ice   Email ice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ice

­Tim
I in no way insinuated that all conservatives had the same brains a rednecks...

You said...

"if you were not for Kerry or have views inconsistent with the left you are an ignorant redneck.  If you support Kerry, you were intelligent."

I suppose you gathered that I thought that way by reading this statement in my reply..

""That dog don't hunt" something that Larry the cable guy might say?
I guess they have to appeal to the redneck crowd as well as more intelligent people concerned with this issue..."

None of the words in that statement were implying like mind of the intelligent people who support the NRA, and the clods that were stirred up by the NRA's last statement in the ad.
It is in the use of those words that I find offence and sleaziness.

By the way, I think Michael Moore is a money grubbing, a-- h---, I'll censor myself, so Ron doesn't have to bother.
He belongs to the same gang as Rove and the other Madison Avenue thugs who flash their colors in modern political campaigns.

I sit in no middle, and consider myself blinder free...and have decided to only speak from a position of grounded truth, provable as much as possible by public record and transcripts of law... if anyone cares to see where the information came from,(in my first post) please ask.

I don't consider myself a lefty, in the commonly understood sense of that word..I consider myself a transcendentalist, trained in the old Emerson school of "well we tried that, it didn't work, lets try something new", and Don't repeat what I say, tell me what "you" think.

What I do ask for is honesty...Is that possible in today's political world?...I don't know, and lean towards thinking not...

As I stated in my post..

"I must admit that I found several distortions and a few lies in the Kerry ads....but he was engaged with his enemy and was fighting the psychological pounding of character assassination.."

I do not feel that he should have ok'd  his own distortions and lies...and so I added...

"I think Kerry should not have joined the liars club, he may have lost by more, but he would have lost more honestly.."

He should have told the entire truth, always....He was at war, but he fought dirty...further proving that rules of engagement are impossible and phony, and when you are losing the battle,  you bring out your big guns,  moral, or on paper laws against them or not...


Brad
"Understanding begins with us."
Yes it does, What I have intended to do is look past the jive and hype of the spin doctors..The truth is shown clearly somewhere, I hope.


Peace-brothers...

--------ice
  ><>
­­
­
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


49 posted 11-07-2004 11:48 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

the apocalyse begins.

Into a little melodrama these days, Brad? Darn, why didn't we elect your guy and avoid armageddon? Beats me...

 
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