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the video

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Midnitesun
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25 posted 10-30-2004 01:21 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

hush, I agree. Bush was in as much shock as the rest of the nation. But as commander in chief, why didn't he anticipate this possiblity and have a contingency plan? the writing was on the wall for a long time, and the signs were ignored. Of course it isn't Bush's fault that Osama struck when he did, it was planned long before and without any interest in who the president would be in 2001.
None of us can afford to be complacent. And the how dare he? I thought that way to. But look at it this way, he DARES because he can. He knows what he intends to do next, we can only guess and hope we find out before another 9/11 event.
Osama doesn't run my life, and certainly doesn't tell me how to vote.
Thanks for joining in on this thread.
Mistletoe Angel
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26 posted 10-30-2004 03:13 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Neither does he influence me.

I voted over a week ago and defend my choice. And I am not thrilled with the fact Kerry is not quite anti-war and thus according to Osama will continue to influence terrorist attack instincts by promising to "hunt and kill the terrorists". However, knowing Nader is an insufficient choice who actually does represent my interests far more, I'll go with the one who will strike more selectively rather than go dancing around bombing Falluja and Najaf on and on. Kerry also strikes me as more sensible in approaching the issue of terrorism by believing we shouldn't let it dominate our lives and water-cooler conversations, while Bush believes otherwise.

Here's the full transcript of his speech, by the way:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E87F61F.htm

According to the transcript, if this is in fact an authentic tape and this is bin-Laden, he justifies the attacks on the World Trade Center towers to the 1982 permitting of Israel by America to invade Lebanon and seeing the destruction of two towers in the nation.

Apparently he wanted to take the "rejection and tyranny" and mimic the emotions back at us by striking an identical pair of towers.

All acts of terrorism are wrong and should be denounced, period. I believe as wrong as it was to allow an invasion like that 22 years ago, violent revenge is cruel, never solves anything and mentioning what he based his attack on doesn't change anything about how menacing and cold September 11th was.

The bottom line here is, no matter if Bush or Kerry is elected, terrorism is not going to cease to exist. And we're not going to resolve the conflict by fighting fire with fire, we need to form some type of diplomacy that doesn't involve artificial arms.

As for the rest of his speech, I think this tape could be spun both ways in the final three days of the campaign.

I was thinking when I read the end of this transcript, "Did Osama see "Fahrenheit 9/11"? Mentioning Bush and his seven minutes of silence in a Florida second-grade classroom is quite coincidental, and it made me wonder if this is in fact a fake tape, this could intensely hurt the Kerry campaign and make it seem like a fabricated unilateral production to strike at Bush's credibility.

I, myself, defend how Bush reacted the first seven minutes after the attack. I felt cold and silent inside for a while too. Tens of millions of us did. I cried to myself most of the day, though my following response unlike many others was not out of anger saying "Who did this, I want to get my hands on those guys and choke them and...", it was out of sadness that there are such menacing, hateful people in the world who'd even think of doing this, but throwing stones wouldn't amount to anything.

No, I don't blame Bush for his first response after the attack. I blame him for his responses following that, after September 14th, etc. I was actually one of a majority of Americans who felt Bush was actually doing a good job leading the nation immediaely after the attack. I felt maybe the embracing-one-another atmosphere could last for more than a week and bring the world closer together. How I wish that was true, but Bush chose instead to lead with impatience, seething and impromptu.

Should the former theory be the case, it could be over for Kerry and Bush will inevitably be re-elected.

But this could work very well for Kerry too. Kerry and his colleagues could go out there and keep hammering out, "When we had Osama surrounded at Tora Bora, suddenly the president decided to invade Iraq, and let Osama get away. Now look at where we are. Osama is still at large, and because of the president's irresponsibility, Osama is threatening to attack America again."

This will be an interesting story to see evolve by Tuesday.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Aenimal
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27 posted 10-30-2004 03:21 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

I think it's important, when we speak of the middle-east, to realize Israel's role in the problem. I think for fear of an anti-semetic label we often coddle Israel in the west. Zionist extremists are as big a problem as Muslim extremists. Yitzhak Rabin learned this and Sharon may soon. As long as there are governments in the region who bow to either of these elements nothing will ever be resolved.
Mistletoe Angel
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28 posted 10-30-2004 03:27 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Oh Raphael, I absolutely agree.

I believe the Israel-Palestine situation is central to so many complications in the peace process in the world, and not just according to Osama but millions of others shows America has a unilateral, biased favor to the Israelis and is not taking to heart the importance of allowing Palestine to be free itself and have the right to its own state.

From November 3 and onward, I think it's beyond important that we progressives keep preaching to our administration how necessary it is we eye a bi-lateral strategy to Israel-Palestine. I believe both nations, both cultures, both peoples should have the right to co-exist in this region. Both our candidates are "pro-Israel" and we need to see to it we educate how important it is we get a "pro-Israel, pro-Palestine" leader.

If we can untie a fatal knot like this, this will untie many other knots of other conflicts in the world. Thinking like this only proves to me further how "everything is interconnected"

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Midnitesun
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29 posted 10-30-2004 03:43 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Thank you for your input Raph and Noah. Perhaps, we are ready to begin another Alley thread  "Where do we go from here?" That would take some of the focus off bin Laden's video, which I never doubted to be real, and forward, towards some ideas from people such as yourselves, as to what the whole world should be doing, not just Israel and the US, to address these problems. That's the beauty of the internet, I believe it has a usefulness far beyond most people's expectations, for it allows cross-cultural dialogues that are not constantly stifled and restrained by political divisiveness. True, it does enter into the discussions, as evidenced here, but the net is a vehicle of freedom that we can put to good use, and I think most of the time, a great deal of misunderstanding can be brought to light by these kinds of discussions when everyone is honest and open, and respectful of other's opinions and life experiences.
Anyway, I have a printed copy of the video text, downloaded from the Times of India.
BTW, the tape had been delivered to the Pakistani office of aljazeera, in an envelope quietly dropped off without any fanfare, deliverd to the Ahmad Muaffaq Zaidan, Al Jazeera's bureau chief. No one recalls (or will tell?) just who handed it to the people at the front gate.
Mistletoe Angel
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30 posted 10-30-2004 03:47 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



I absolutely agree, Kacy!



Talking about solutions on the same thread as an infamous videotape just doesn't sound right to me and should be seperated.



Start it up, Kacy!



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Aenimal
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31 posted 10-30-2004 03:54 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

"I believe it has a usefulness far beyond most people's expectations, for it allows cross-cultural dialogues that are not constantly stifled and restrained by political divisiveness"

Well put Kacy. It's a shame really, with the exception of ancient Alexandria and the Renaisance, there has never been a greater resource of materials or merging of cultures and thought and yet...
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


32 posted 10-30-2004 06:17 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Midnitesun,

“What exactly are your convictions on this?”

My prejudices are in favor of Jews, especially those of Israel,
but with my background that is easy; so I tried to leave
my personal prejudice out of the conversation.

“ Are you just throwing these things out to incite, to ruffle some feathers? Or do you have a game plan, some hidden agenda?”

I want to force the hard look and conversations, if not personal decisions, there on.

I just finished a few minutes ago eating dinner distracted by yet another
of those sci-fi fantasies where humans are able to come to peace with a
totally alien aggressive race they’ve just met without bloodshed through
discussion.  It’s a wonderful ideal, idea, but sometimes, like with the
Nazi’s, that just will not work, because that race, creed, attitude,
don’t see any point in honestly negotiating with those who to them
are not worthy of  life, let alone their company.

What then?  On a different thread I touched on it as regards Franklin
Roosevelt’s actions, in opposition to a majority American attitude that was staunchly
opposed to becoming involved in yet another European war, despite
Mein Kampf , the newsreels, and what they could read in their own papers,
( In the epilogue of “World At War”, a much younger alive Stephen
Ambrose related how after World War II there were many Americans
who believed they had been suckered again).

So I present the unpleasant for consideration.

It makes things interesting.

John

P.S. You, (or anyone else),  ever read a book titled “The Masada Plan”?
Might make another interesting related thread.

Ron
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33 posted 10-30-2004 07:10 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
It’s a wonderful ideal, idea, but sometimes, like with the Nazi’s, that just will not work ...

One shouldn't confuse an assumption with an absolute. That no one successfully negotiated a settlement with Nazi Germany before declaring war only proves that no one successfully negotiated a settlement with Nazi Germany. It does NOT prove no one could.

On the contrary. The eventual surrender of Germany WAS the result of negotiation, albeit an armed one, and proves without any question they were operating under the principles of self-interest. Anyone operating under that premise can be reached through negotiation. The difficulty is always one of persuasion.

Hitler thought he could win more than he would lose, and no one convinced him otherwise until he had already lost so much he had nothing left to win. Contrast that with the Cold War that followed and ultimately lasted for decades. How has nuclear war been avoided for over fifty years? Because everyone has more to lose than to gain, and -- more importantly -- everyone believes it.

Self-interest guides everyone. Negotiation is simply finding the right mixture of carrot and stick, and then convincing someone you can be trusted to execute BOTH just as you say you will.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


34 posted 10-30-2004 07:40 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ron,

What was left of Germany surrendered unconditionally, (so terrified
of approaching avenging Soviet armies from the East that there was
wide and panicked flight to the allies in the West.  Hitler had shot himself.
Nuremburg followed.

What was left of Japan also surrendered unconditionally,
(though they were given to understand they could keep the emperor
in some form), after Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and declaration of war
by the Soviet Union.  Even then had it not
been for the deified authority of only one man, the emperor, the Japanese,
(in the opinion of Japanese of that time), would have suicidally
fought on until millions more had died.

Japan is a particularly interesting example in that in it was faced,
(to most Westerners), a mystery and terror, a race trained from
birth in a code/faith that passionately and in practice
preferred death in suicidal attacks or suicide itself to surrender.
  
John

  
 
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