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Passions in Poetry

Doing the Right Thing

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Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


0 posted 10-29-2004 07:35 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Jane is a woman who enjoying sex has been sexually active
since the age of eighteen when she acquired her first
prescription of birth control pills.  One of her favorite places
for meeting male sexual partners is the “Consenting Adults Who
Don’t Want Kids One Night Stand Club”, ( the name is
prominent above the front door and on each of the walls inside),
By virtue of the CAWDWKONSC she has had innumerable
sexual encounters with a variety of men, but over the course
of ten years has tended toward a favorite dozen, (each of
whom during their conversations have expressed their
vehement aversion to children).  During that ten year
period Jane has on three occasions thought
it would be nice to be a mother and consequently has
deliberately gone off birth control for a period of two
weeks during which she slept with each of those favored
dozen at least once resulting in a pregnancy.  However,
upon discovering her condition, Jane changed her mind
and had an abortion performed.  Then at twenty-eight,
Jane again decided that being a mother would be nice,
again went off birth control and for a two week period
slept at least once with each of her favored dozen,
after meeting them as usual at the CAWDWKONSC,
as well as once with Elmer who before their evening
together, (after meeting at the CAWDWKONSC when
he like the others expressed his distaste for children),
had never met her before.  Jane finds out she is
pregnant and decides she will have the baby.
She takes all thirteen men to court to have their DNA
tested to determine who is the father.  Upon determination,
the man, whose sperm it is determined it was, offers
to pay all expenses for an abortion which Jane refuses.

Who is responsible for the child?   Who should pay,
how much, how long and for what?

Larry C
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-10-2001
Posts 10765
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1 posted 10-29-2004 07:56 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

I think they should all pay...
SEA
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since 01-18-2000
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with you


2 posted 10-29-2004 08:21 PM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

I think her behavior is disgusting and she should not be allowed to keep the child. I think it should be taken from her and adopted by responsible people who don't play with their lives, and the lives of others including an innocent baby. Then I think she should have to have her tubes tied. That...is what I think, of that.
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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3 posted 10-29-2004 08:46 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Whoever won Jane's nasty little lottery should pay. Men are just as capable of birth control as women. Perhaps the poor slob could sue the management of CAWDWKONSC.

May they all stand before Judge Judy in a two hour primetime special.

Don't want kids? Don't have sex. Even condoms aren't completely fool proof.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
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4 posted 10-29-2004 09:16 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Karen, women, rightfully, fought and won their right to choose. But where and what are men's rights on this issue? Let's forget the club scenario above for a moment. Let's say a young man takes all the precautions, he's under the assumption she's under birth control but being responsible uses a condom for added measure.

If the condom breaks, why is the man responsible for the support of an unplanned child? Many will say, well you choose to have sex you live with the consequences, well shouldn't a woman who also decided to have sex, and then decided to have a stranger's baby live with the consequences? I understand the reasoning behind the laws that exist, and in most cases I'd agree with you Karen.

But in certain cases, like the one mentioned or exploitive situations, laws meant to be fair and balanced have instead swung completely to the other side of the spectrum and now it's men whose rights are being infringed.
Midnitesun
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5 posted 10-29-2004 09:18 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Well, the one who shouldn't pay..is obviously the child. Her behavior and those who play this game are NOT responsible adults, and should probably all have their parenting rights removed. But the sperm donor? He lost the game financially, since he chose to play it. I'm inclined to question whether or not this selfish woman should keep this child, but unless she proves legally to be unfit, she will be allowed to keep this child, and that man will have to pay child support for 18+ years. Hopefully for the child, someone who will really love and CARE for him/her will step up and take over, but it doesn't sound like that will be the case. Is this a for real situation, or hypothetical?
Perhaps all these people should step away from the parenting game, because everyone loses when this kind of behavior goes unchecked. I am NOT opposed to sexual freedom, just that with it, should come the responsibility and a willingness to accept the consequences. For one thing, I'm really just as concerned about STD's as this reckless conceiving of children.
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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6 posted 10-29-2004 09:25 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I just have to shrug and say "tough", Raph.

One cannot pass on the responsiblity for something so vital to someone else.

Trust me, I'm not wanting to hold a baby shower for Jane. But men need to understand and be held accountable for the same fact that women have lived with for centuries.

I tell ya what tho, I'll support your right to have your wee wee tied tight. In fact, brace yourself, that too could be a reality television show.

sigh.

and everybody can save their breath, because there ain't nobody on this planet that can convince me that sex isn't a mutual agreement that should share mutual responsibility.

I say it again. You don't want kids? Don't have sex. Um, unless you're God.

(None of ya'll are God, are ya? and if you are, please leave my tired womb alone.)

I've had all the miracles I can stand for one lifetime.

(and yes, I'm having a crappy day )
Aenimal
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since 11-18-2002
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7 posted 10-29-2004 09:41 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

shrugs
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


8 posted 10-29-2004 09:44 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Yikes.

Sorry for the snipe.

But seriously, if all the guy has to do is add some financial support, he should consider himself lucky.

The wee wee thing was uncalled for, Raph. I apologize. (I just realized was forty minutes past medication time.)



sigh

But yes, and just as an added thing, "Pulling out" is not an effective method of birth control. It's not even effective sex.

Sorry I ranted.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
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9 posted 10-29-2004 09:56 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Nay problem, you're entitled and as I said most times I'm inclined to agree with you. I did grow up under a single mother. It's simply my opinion that certain situations merit different outcomes.  I believe in balance. Too many things we've applied as a society to correct the mistakes of the past have, instead of creating balance, swung to their extremes.
Skyfyre
Senior Member
since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap


10 posted 10-29-2004 11:28 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

quote:
If the condom breaks, why is the man responsible for the support of an unplanned child?


I will agree that the laws for child custody and support are about 90% biased toward women; however, the man *did* choose to have sex and is therefore just as responsible as the woman in question for the result.

Was she underhanded about the birth control bit?  Yes, but I'd be willing to bet that he *didn't* use a condom in this case.  Bottom line, you don't want the responsibility of kids, don't put the onus of birth control on your partner - take care of it yourself.

If you want to be 100% sure, just don't have sex.  Furthermore, if these men were so dead-set against children but determined to be sexually promiscuous, why not have a vasectomy?  It's fairly non-invasive, reversible, and you can be back to work in a day.  Heck, in most cases it's performed on an outpatient basis for heaven's sake.  A much more comfortable option - and vastly less prone to complications - than a woman having her tubes tied.  Or having an abortion, for that matter.

quote:
Many will say, well you choose to have sex you live with the consequences, well shouldn't a woman who also decided to have sex, and then decided to have a stranger's baby live with the consequences?


I'm assuming here that the "consequences" are the raising of the child.  The mother in question has committed herself to that, has she not?  Otherwise she won't be getting any support from the father.

You wanna play, you might have to pay.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


11 posted 10-30-2004 01:36 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
I will agree that the laws for child custody and support are about 90% biased toward women; however, the man *did* choose to have sex and is therefore just as responsible as the woman in question for the result.


They both chose to have sex, that's my point, both parties are responsible

quote:
Was she underhanded about the birth control bit?  Yes, but I'd be willing to bet that he *didn't* use a condom in this case.  Bottom line, you don't want the responsibility of kids, don't put the onus of birth control on your partner - take care of it yourself.


First off, I distanced myself from the original example by using my own. One where the onus was put on the male. That's the situation I'm discussing, where the man does the right thing and is still punished.

quote:
I'm assuming here that the "consequences" are the raising of the child.  The mother in question has committed herself to that, has she not?  Otherwise she won't be getting any support from the father.

You wanna play, you might have to pay.


This is the problem, once we get to the consequence, pregnancy, the woman has a choice. She has the right to choose abortion, adoption or raising the child. But the men involved have no say at all. So because of an accident, despite his precautions, he's now forced to financially support a child(no small task) of a stranger? I don't think it's as cut and dry, simple or fair as 'You wanna play, you might have to pay'
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


12 posted 10-30-2004 02:18 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

There's not a woman alive who wouldn't like to see more parity, Raph.

(Huff an orange through your nostril, or pass a bowling ball out of your anus, and we'll talk. )

But seriously, the "right" that you speak of has been short-lived, and is in serious jeopardy even as I type. (as you well know, George W. doesn't have an agenda when it comes to Supreme Court appointments, and yeah, right )

Would that morality could be legislated.

Attorneys would be outlawed.

I am more sympathetic than you might think, however. I've had a few male friends who were heartbroken by just the opposite--they did not wish for pregnancies to be terminated.

And I concede, that is a point that befuddles me.

Heart-breaking, but I have to maintain that there is no surety--and the choice for men begins before conception. Women don't always have that choice.

I agree, lots of gray areas, but as things are, I have to stand by my initial opinion.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


13 posted 10-30-2004 05:03 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

a woman choosing to be a single mother through artificial insemination takes on, with that choice, the financial responsibilty of raising her child. or are you implying that a sperm donor should legally, be financially responsible for the child?

I'd call that unfair, likewise i think it's unfair that a man who took all the necessary precautions, be fiscally responsible when those precautions fail. to be responsible for a child whose upbringing he will have no input on, will never be a part of his life, or he may well never see depending on the decision of its mother?

and k? on behalf of all men i apologize for being unable to bare children.. sighs

was that shot necessary? c'mon K if you remember our conversations you know how much i talked of my life growing up and the fierce respect i have for my mom raising us alone. i know first-hand the reasons why the laws are necessary but, as a man i also realize a need for balance for those who take the precautions.

i have a gut feeling no matter how carefully worded my responses they'll be misinterpreted as chauvanistic
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


14 posted 10-30-2004 09:14 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I'd call that unfair, likewise i think it's unfair that a man who took all the necessary precautions ...

Raph, I think this is where your argument falls apart, because "all necessary precautions" would have to include abstinence. Anything less is just "some" precautions, and that ain't cutting it.

I find the original question to be in poor taste and so contrived as to be inane, but the issues are nonetheless real ones. I'm glad the responses (so far) have been more tasteful (mostly), and we've managed to keep this obviously mature topic out of the Mature Content section.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


15 posted 10-30-2004 12:40 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Let me provide some insight into why.

My adolescence was spent in the time
before the general availability of birth control pills
and legal abortion.  If by virtue of a relationship
the female of an unmarried couple became
pregnant,  there was intense, if not
irresistible, social, (as well as internal moral),
pressure on the male to marry
the female regardless of whatever might
have been his feelings since he was held
equally if not more responsible for the
pregnancy and the child that would be
consequent.

A few years ago, in conversation, an MBA
in his mid-twenties vehemently denied
any male obligation beyond that, if any,
the male chose to acknowledge, on the argument
that since the woman was now wholly free,
(with 99.9% effectiveness), to decide whether
or not she would during sex make herself susceptible to
pregnancy, and, (with 100% effectiveness),
whether a pregnancy would continue, the
man was thereby equally freed of any
obligation beyond that he consented to.

Now I’m sure that MBA would never
make such remarks in mixed company.
But I’m equally confident that there has
been a change of attitude on the subject
from my generation to his, and I suspected,
with less confidence, a schism between
the sexes on the issue.

Therefore the hypothetical, (though
these days not that far fetched).

John
hush
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since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


16 posted 10-30-2004 01:22 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Ah, we Janes are just so unpredictable, with all our vascillating back and forth.

'Who is responsible for the child?   Who should pay,
how much, how long and for what?'

They are both responsible, they should both pay equal amounts of money until the child is 18 years old for the necessities of its upbringing. Is that simple and direct enough for you? Oh, and by the way- what do you think?

And um... you know, men also heve the decision on how vulnerable they will make themselves during sex, with the knowledge that condoms can fail. And women do occaisionally lie. Believing blindly that a woman who says she is on the pill is on the pill is every bit as dumb as believing it when he says "I'll pull out." (And, -smiling at Karen here- that it'll even be worth your while... never mind, I'll stop there. )

Raph:

"a woman choosing to be a single mother through artificial insemination takes on, with that choice, the financial responsibilty of raising her child. or are you implying that a sperm donor should legally, be financially responsible for the child?"

No, not if the woman intentionally impreganted herself with the knowledge that she would be paying baby's way all on her lonesome. There's a difference between a planned pregnancy and an "oops."

"I'd call that unfair, likewise i think it's unfair that a man who took all the necessary precautions, be fiscally responsible when those precautions fail."

But a woman who took the precautions of birth control is going to be responsible, whether she likes it or not... and not only fiscally, but she has to loan out her uterus for 9 months, deal with morning sickness, the agony of childbirth, the possibility of not being paid while on her maternity leave or getting paid less (we don't all have good benefits, y'know) and the overwhelming responsibility of shaping a new life.

And the man is only responsible for that first part? Why are they whining?

"to be responsible for a child whose upbringing he will have no input on, will never be a part of his life, or he may well never see depending on the decision of its mother?"

Well, I was a product of an "Of, I forgot to take my pill" sort of thing, and I saw my dad all my life. Not all single mothers will deny fathers the right to see their kids... I don't even think most will. I mean, it's possible... but that's what the legal system is for (or is supposed to be for, at least- I don't know how well that works out in practice.)
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
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17 posted 10-30-2004 03:08 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Raph, I think this is where your argument falls apart, because "all necessary precautions" would have to include abstinence


Of course Ron, but I'm speaking of the necessary precautions within the context of having sexual relations. i.e. If you are going to have sex, this is the way to go about it.

quote:
No, not if the woman intentionally impreganted herself with the knowledge that she would be paying baby's way all on her lonesome. There's a difference between a planned pregnancy and an "oops."


If, once it's understood that you are pregnant, you're given three options and the option you choose is giving birth is that not somewhat planned? Moreso then the male who has absolutely no say on the outcome. Again i'm not talking of all cases, let's set social taboos/religious/ethical cases aside. I can't fathom why anybody would want to have the child of a stranger without full knowledge of their genetic and psychological makeup simply for the sake of having a child? If a woman decides to take on the responsibility of single motherhood of a child conceived from casual sex partners and one night stands, why is it the fiscal responsibility of a stranger who becomes the 'father' by way of, essentially, an errant sperm. I know that sounds callous but that's not my intention. Here's my point, while the female(like the male) didn't choose pregnancy, she did choose motherhood whereas the male is thrust into fatherhood

quote:
But a woman who took the precautions of birth control is going to be responsible, whether she likes it or not... and not only fiscally, but she has to loan out her uterus for 9 months, deal with morning sickness, the agony of childbirth, the possibility of not being paid while on her maternity leave or getting paid less (we don't all have good benefits, y'know) and the overwhelming responsibility of shaping a new life.


First let me clarify, I think some of you may be under the mistaken impression that I'm against child support in an unplanned pregnancy. I'm simply saying that the law is unbalanced towards to men when both parties made are guilty of the mistake.

Second, I'm not taking a chauvanist approach and saying 'guys shouldn't take the rap'. But in cases where the male did everything in his power to protect himself maybe there should be either ,caps on the financial responsibility or arbitration where responsibility and decision-making is evened out.

quote:
Not all single mothers will deny fathers the right to see their kids... I don't even think most will. I mean, it's possible... but that's what the legal system is for (or is supposed to be for, at least- I don't know how well that works out in practice.)


But this is a problem, often the legal system is skewed in favour of single mothers. Again, with reason, reasons as the child of a single mother I approve of. But there's little balance in the system. Sow hat started with noble intentions can be a nightmare for men.

I'm not talking of careless men, men who used or abandoned women and children, I'm talking about responsible men who tried to take precautions while enjoying sex. That's why i said in the case of strangers and 'oops' pregnancies, some sort of arbitration and decision by males should be factored into the outcome.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


18 posted 10-30-2004 05:38 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Hush,

I am neutral, and rightly so; can’t have kids.

John

Denise
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19 posted 10-30-2004 06:11 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think that if a pregnancy is the outcome of sexual relations, whether the pregnancy was planned or unplanned, the responsibility, and financial obligation, rests with BOTH participants in the act. No method of birth control is 100% reliable. The only 100% reliable course of action is abstinence.
Skyfyre
Senior Member
since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap


20 posted 10-30-2004 06:18 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

quote:
This is the problem, once we get to the consequence, pregnancy, the woman has a choice. She has the right to choose abortion, adoption or raising the child. But the men involved have no say at all. So because of an accident, despite his precautions, he's now forced to financially support a child(no small task) of a stranger? I don't think it's as cut and dry, simple or fair as 'You wanna play, you might have to pay'


But it is cut and dried.

We are born men or we are born women.  As women, we realize that if we choose to have sex, protected or otherwise, there is a chance that we will become pregnant.  As men, you realize that if you choose to have sex, protected or otherwise with a fertile female partner, she may become pregnant - at which point you will have no say in the matter of whether or not that child is born.

These men knew this going in.  The woman obviously didn't ask her male partners to have vasectomies, and she would have been out of her rights to insist upon it, just as her partners are out of their rights to compel her to abort the child.  All moral arguments aside, abortion is a surgical procedure.  Would you allow another person to compel you to have surgery against your will?

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


21 posted 10-30-2004 06:49 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Denise,

“No method of birth control is 100% reliable.”

and

Skyfyre,

“Would you allow another person to compel you to have surgery against your will?”

Please each of you come up with what would be the MBA’s, (his actual name
was Tom), reasoning response, and your rejoinder.


John

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


22 posted 10-30-2004 07:50 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Would you allow another person to compel you to have surgery against your will?


Not at all what I was implying, by choices I meant a roles child-rearing, visitation rights etc. The point I made in a later reply, is that there should be arbitration and/or caps on the amounts on financial verdicts
Skyfyre
Senior Member
since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap


23 posted 10-30-2004 09:46 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

Michael and I had this conversation earlier, and we were able to agree on the point that a man should be responsible for his child, no matter what the circumstances of that child's conception.

We also agreed that the woman's actions were underhanded and agreed that, for several reasons, the woman in your example was probably not fit to raise the child.  She surely isn't starting the baby out with any kind of sound family structure.  However, that is another issue.

It is a simple matter of biology that women have more choices to make regarding sex and pregnancy than men.  Men have the choice to expose themselves to being parents by having sex.  Contraception aside (because no contraception is 100% reliable), that is the only choice they have.  

Women, on the other hand, have two choices to consider: the decision whether to have sex and, in the case of pregnancy, the decision whether to have a child.  In my opinion, arguments whether or not it is "fair" that a father who does not want a child has no say in whether or not it will be born (as opposed to aborted) are moot; a decision to have sex with a female partner is one that says, "I know that this action may result in pregnancy, and I accept that risk."  There are no mysteries, no guessing about where babies come from anymore, right?

The sad fact is that people who are unfit to be parents have children every day. However, seeking to absolve the men of their responsibilities to the child simply because modern women have a potentially dangerous, psychologically scarring, morally anguishing alternative to childbirth is frankly ludicrous.
Skyfyre
Senior Member
since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap


24 posted 10-30-2004 09:54 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

quote:
Not at all what I was implying, by choices I meant a roles child-rearing, visitation rights etc. The point I made in a later reply, is that there should be arbitration and/or caps on the amounts on financial verdicts


I suspect we may be more agreeable on this subject than you realize.

I do not believe that having children should be a viable form of self-support for a single woman, unless she is a surrogate mother or some similar thing.  If a woman decides to have a child, she should be required to make efforts of her own for the financial sustenance of that child - staying at home and drawing welfare and child support "so she can be a better mother" doesn't cut it with me.

Acceptance of her fair share of the financial burden of raising a child is part of a woman's decision to bear that child.  If she is unwilling to accept that burden, the child should be aborted or put up for adoption at birth.
 
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