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Passions in Poetry

Doing the Right Thing

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serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


25 posted 10-30-2004 10:33 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"I do not believe that having children should be a viable form of self-support for a single woman, unless she is a surrogate mother or some similar thing.  If a woman decides to have a child, she should be required to make efforts of her own for the financial sustenance of that child - staying at home and drawing welfare and child support "so she can be a better mother" doesn't cut it with me."

I do sigh in sympathy, but realistically, we have a government that is already arguing the question of when life begins--now we are to argue motivation of conception?

I don't think I want my government to go there. I don't want them in my doctor's office, nor I do want them in my bedroom.

In my offhand reply, I suggested that the father of the child sue the management of the club that guaranteed free sex, with no ramifications.

I don't know of such a club. I'd be surprised too, to learn that such a club existed. Simply because, and I guess I have to amend my initial answer now, the club would have to be legally responsible if they guaranteed a "sex with no consequence" atmosphere, and a resulting alliance would then indeed hold them liable.

I would assume that such a club would indeed cover their legal ass...ets.

But I can picture Judge Judy, telling the father of the child, "Provide support--then sue THEM."

Yes, we all know where babies come from.

But where do they go?

I repeat:

"Would that morality could be legislated."

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


26 posted 10-30-2004 11:13 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
staying at home and drawing welfare and child support "so she can be a better mother" doesn't cut it with me.

Acceptance of her fair share of the financial burden of raising a child is part of a woman's decision to bear that child.  If she is unwilling to accept that burden, the child should be aborted or put up for adoption at birth.


This is the type of situation I've been speaking of. The laws are in place for good reason, as the son of a single mother i applaud them. But in instances like your example above, there has to be a balance in the courts decisions.
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


27 posted 10-30-2004 11:19 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I agree, too.

But on the flip side, I can site a man who had conceived 8 children by age thirty, and he was the youngest grandpa in our group.

How could he afford to raise all those children?

Simple. He was a gifted mechanic, and only took money "under the table." And despite what has been implied, child support is based on capability.

Now, a guy like this? Should he have to undergo court-ordered vascectomy?

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


28 posted 10-31-2004 12:12 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Raph-

There was a thread a while back ago about how if women are legally able to abrogate their responsibility to an unborn child by abortion, shouldn't men legally be allowed to say "Nope. Not doin' it!" I don't have the link- does anyone remember this?

I think it's a very interesting point, but with an obvious problem. If a man puts a sperm in a womans body, and it happens to fertilize an egg that implants in her womb, then by default the decision is in her hands. And until laws regarding abortion or child support change, a man  has to accept that having sex with a woman, under any circumstances, inherently has potential to change his entire life due to an unplanned pregnancy, birth, or abortion. It's half his chromosome, and it damn well better be half his money, too.

Skyfyre made a comment that really made me think, too:

'However, seeking to absolve the men of their responsibilities to the child simply because modern women have a potentially dangerous, psychologically scarring, morally anguishing alternative to childbirth is frankly ludicrous.'

Abortion isn't quite as simple as saying "I'm not going to be responsible for a baby." It's undergoing a surgical procedure that says "I am going to be responsible for aborting this fetus." I am personally against abortion, and not just because I think it's immoral- it's because I think it hurts women in ways that they don't need to be hurt because someone dealing with the crisis of an unwanted pregnancy is already hurting enough. There are physical risks and emotional aftermaths.

Now, take the man who wants to not be responsible for a child. And since most guys trying to weasel out of child support are not the ones trying to hang around and raise their kids, we'll assume he is not planning on pursuing his visitation rights or anything- in short, the only thing he has to lose is money. Situation A: pay up. Situation B: don't pay up. Hard choice, huh? Especially when you have so much invested in it... I mean, C'mon. The only physical threat would be if the mom's new boyfriend or brother decided to try to beat you up or something. There would be no legal threat. Morally, emotionally? If you don't want her to be pregnant, perhaps wanted her to get an abortion, don't want to see your child, and don't want to pay her, chances are the only thing you really care about in this situation is how much of your paycheck gets docked.

John- if you're neutral, why did you ask the question? And why in the hell would anyone care what Tom thinks? Or what we think he would think? Or about what degree he has?

Try answering some questions for once.
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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29 posted 10-31-2004 01:04 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"Abortion isn't quite as simple as saying "I'm not going to be responsible for a baby." It's undergoing a surgical procedure that says "I am going to be responsible for aborting this fetus." I am personally against abortion, and not just because I think it's immoral- it's because I think it hurts women in ways that they don't need to be hurt because someone dealing with the crisis of an unwanted pregnancy is already hurting enough. There are physical risks and emotional aftermaths."

See what I mean? You tiptoe in, white-cottoned cape and make perfect sense.

smiling wide


Skyfyre
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since 08-15-99
Posts 1966
Sitting in Michael's Lap


30 posted 10-31-2004 01:22 AM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

quote:
I do sigh in sympathy, but realistically, we have a government that is already arguing the question of when life begins--now we are to argue motivation of conception?

I don't think I want my government to go there. I don't want them in my doctor's office, nor I do want them in my bedroom.


I understand.  When my son was born, almost a year to the day after my daughter, I had exactly two more children than I could afford.  Their father was about as useful as tits on a bull, but I knew this before I had my children.

Adoption was not an option for me.  Abortion even less so.  I bonded with my daughter the moment I first felt her flutter beneath my heart - giving birth to her was the single most defining moment in my life.  When my son snuck up on me, there was no thought in my mind except that I would soon be a mother of two, and I'd damn well better turn my life into something worthwhile because it wasn't just my own sorry behind that I was responsible for now.

I worked.  I went to school.  I took care of the finances and supported, to the best of my ability, my children and their father who could not hold a job.  When I finally asked him to leave, it was with no strings; he could call or visit the children whenever he wanted, but I neither required nor desired his help raising them, financial or otherwise.

He didn't call them for two years.  When they finally did speak, it was because I got their father's telephone number from a mutual friend and I called HIM.

I missed out on about 75% of my childrens' lives even when they were living with me ... if my mother weren't such an angel I'd never have been able to manage it.  As it was I could barely earn enough for rent and bills, despite working a full time job and often overtime.  WIC bought the childrens' forumula and food stamps bought their food.  My social worker said she couldn't imagine how I managed to be a single mother to two children and still work AND go to college.

I told her I couldn't understand how some women could be a single mother and NOT work and/or go to college to better their lives and that of their children.  How they could set such a fine example of "Why work?  Money comes in the mail."

My point is that the leeches on the system are easy to spot.  They get jobs exactly as often and for as long as they absolutely have to in order not to get their aid suspended.  They may start school (in order to avoid working) but they never finish.

And they keep having children.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


31 posted 10-31-2004 01:30 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

hush I'm not disagreeing with you, I've tried to clarify any misunderstandings my comments may have caused and am suggesting a need for a fairer way to determine or cap financial responsibilty.

quote:
And despite what has been implied, child support is based on capability.


K I remember listening to a case last year where a stay at home father was divorced from his 6 figure salary corporate wife. Not only did the stay at home father not gain custody, but was forced to pay support. It's not always fair, balanced or based on capability.
Alicat
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since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


32 posted 10-31-2004 01:55 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Well, this happened to a close friend of mine here recently.  He and his girlfriend, who already had several children, was homeschooling, not working, and living off of another friend's wages, domicile, pantry, and graciousness, engaged in protected (him) sex, with his belief she was on birth control pills.  Part of a relationship is trust, so he believed her.  She becomes pregnant.  So he quits college, starts selling paper crack (Magic cards) on Ebay, and petitions for more work hours.  She does nothing.  Then, several weeks later, she decides on an abortion without ever consulting him, never caring for how he felt, and expects, nay, demands that he foot the bill.  So he saved up, made all the phone calls, made all the appointments, drove the six hour roundtrip to Phoenix twice, and paid for the procedure, gas, meals, everything.  And he never complained, at least not to her.  She repays gratitude by turning off her ringer and making him a pariah from their circle of friends.  He changed his life for her.  She changed nothing.  He was all set to do whatever it took to support his child, her, and her 3 children.  Thankfully, due to her series of actions, which all carried their own consequences, she is no longer a current concern.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


33 posted 10-31-2004 02:11 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Nodding agreement with this:

"My point is that the leeches on the system are easy to spot.  They get jobs exactly as often and for as long as they absolutely have to in order not to get their aid suspended.  They may start school (in order to avoid working) but they never finish."

It's been almost two decades since I was part of THAT system, but I do recall, my sister, having to refuse jobs, because her husband was in prison, and the pay she was offered wouldn't amount to the same amount of support she received -- and by law? She could not refuse a job offer.

Basically, an indentured servitude.


We cried. We lied. We made it through.

How do you find monies for one decent interview outfit, when every penny goes toward just SHOES for the kids' schoolyear?

But...it can be overcome.

It took my whole family though.

Some people don't have that option.

And damn those bad shoes hurt.

sigh...I think I drifted offpoint, but then again?

maybe I bulls-eyed it too.



 
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