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Passions in Poetry

President Franklin Roosevelt

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Huan Yi
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Waukegan


0 posted 10-27-2004 12:52 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Was President Franklin Roosevelt wrong in his actions,
as regards Germany and Japan, leading to America’s
participation in World War II?

John

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (10-28-2004 09:01 PM).]

Brad
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1 posted 10-27-2004 03:31 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

No, are you actually trying an historical comparison. Okay, how about this? FDR would have been wrong if after Pearl Harbor, he decided to invade Spain.

And then justify it because, well, they were fascist after all. They were going to attack us someday somewhere.

Huan Yi
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2 posted 10-27-2004 07:43 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Brad,


"as regards Germany and Japan, leading to America’s
participation in World War II?"


John
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3 posted 10-27-2004 09:12 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Brad, I think that was exactly his reasoning on Germany.
Krawdad
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4 posted 10-27-2004 10:21 PM       View Profile for Krawdad   Email Krawdad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Krawdad

What actions?  Your question is not specific.

FDR was anticipating and waiting for an attack on the US to stimulate the popular support he needed to declare war.
Pearl Harbor provided him with the opportunity.  The US population was isolationist before that happened.
Listen carefully the next time you hear his "Day of Infamy" speech and tell me you don't hear a well thought out response, not merely a reactionary bit of spit.  He knew it was coming.  It was his justification.

Does that answer your question?
Brad
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5 posted 10-27-2004 10:22 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Boy, you guys are really confusing me. Whose reasoning?

Hitler declared war on America right after Pearl Harbor.
Huan Yi
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6 posted 10-28-2004 12:12 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Brad,

“Churchill picked up the phone.  “Mr. President, what’s
this about Japan?”
“It’s quite true.  They have attacked Pearl Harbor.  We
are all in the same boat.”
“ This actually simplifies things.  God be with you.”
Churchill couldn’t help feeling great elation, now that
the United States was officially at his side….


Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop told Hitler that
General Oshima was demanding an immediate declaration of
war against America but reminded him that according to the
terms of the Tripartite Pact, Germany was bound to assist Japan
only in case she was directly attacked.

“If we don’t stand on the side of Japan, the pact is politically
dead,”  Hitler said.  “But that is not the main reason.  The chief
reason is that the United States already is shooting at our ships.
They have been a forceful factor in this war and through their
actions have already created a situation of war.””

John Toland
The Rising Sun

Huan Yi
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7 posted 10-28-2004 12:23 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Krawdad,

“Does that answer your question?”

No

My question was:

Was President Franklin Roosevelt wrong in his actions,
as regards Germany and Japan, leading to America’s
participation in World War II?

John
Aenimal
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8 posted 10-28-2004 12:24 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Oh FDR knew the attack was coming, the allied intelligence community was quite aware of the impending attack and both the State Department and Naval Intelligence recieved the information as early as March.
Huan Yi
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9 posted 10-28-2004 12:33 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Aenimal,

And why did Japan, a country
already embroiled in a costly war in China for years,
attack America?

John
Brad
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10 posted 10-28-2004 10:28 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Uh, blockade?  Sanctions?

Whatever you want to call it.

Aenimal
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11 posted 10-28-2004 04:32 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

The beauty of the Freedom of Information Act? It's all there if you're willing to read. Declassified memos include an 8 point plan written by naval intelligence's Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum on how to provoke Japan into attacking. All 8 points were adopted by FDR including, as Brad mentioned, sanctions and the oil embargo in 1941.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (10-28-2004 05:12 PM).]

Huan Yi
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12 posted 10-28-2004 07:25 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

So,
was President Franklin Roosevelt wrong in his actions,
as regards Germany and Japan, leading to America’s
participation in World War II?

John


PS Some 350,000 Americans were killed
in WWII.

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (10-28-2004 09:01 PM).]

Aenimal
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13 posted 10-28-2004 10:24 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

He was right to help his allies against the spread of a nazi/fascist regime. He was wrong in waiting 2 years to help, and he was wrong in how he went about getting involved.
Huan Yi
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14 posted 10-30-2004 05:34 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Aenimal,

“and he was wrong in how he went about getting involved”

And how else could he have gotten a vehemently isolationist
American population* involved?

John

*There was a survey done by the Chicago Tribune in
November, 1941 that found Americans by an 8 to 1
majority opposed to becoming involved in another
European war.
Aenimal
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15 posted 10-30-2004 03:50 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
And how else could he have gotten a vehemently isolationist
American population* involved?


I'm not sure, but I'd like to think there are better alternatives than allowing an attack on US citizens and soil. That 8-1 were against the war displays the faults of isolationalist thinking.

PS Canada didn't hesitate to join the war in Europe sending 1 million troops(nearly 10% of the total population) from 1939-45 including the 4th largest air force and the 3rd largest navy.
Huan Yi
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16 posted 10-31-2004 12:28 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Aenimal,

“PS Canada didn't hesitate to join the war in Europe sending 1 million troops(nearly 10% of the total population) from 1939-45 including the 4th largest air force and the 3rd largest navy.”

As in 1914, because for them England was the Mother Country.  In fact many
still loyal Tories escaped/emigrated to Canada after the American Revolution.

"I'm not sure, but I'd like to think there are better alternatives than allowing an attack on US citizens and soil."

All accounts indicate no one in authority thought the Japanese
capable or stupid enough to attack Pearl Harbor, expecting the blow to fall
on the Philippines or  elsewhere instead.
They knew an attack was coming, but not where.

John

hush
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17 posted 10-31-2004 12:40 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Hey john... um... could you repeat the question please? I didn't read it the first eighty times.

Man, I feel like I'm in a broken record of history class.

a broken record of history class.

a broken record of history class.
hush
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18 posted 10-31-2004 12:42 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Seriously, it's one of those things that's hard to call. Right? Wrong? *Sigh* there was a genocide going on, and also a mass invasion of europe.

If I remember correctly, we beat Saddam down when he tried to invade somebody, and he didn't try to do it again.

Where's the comparision?
Aenimal
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19 posted 10-31-2004 03:15 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

"Now let us turn to the fateful period between November 27 and December 6, 1941. In this period numerous pieces of information came to our State, War, and Navy Departments in all of their Top ranks indicating precisely the intentions of the Japanese including the probable exact hour and date of the attack."
~Army report October 1944

For a timeline and what WAS known see the warnings section:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

Huan Yi
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20 posted 10-31-2004 09:32 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Yes, they knew an attack was coming, though not where,
and certainly not Pearl Harbor.  And it has been argued here,
and I agree, that that wherever attack was deliberately sought
so as to bring a reluctant nation into the conflict already
raging in the world.  I suspect it was also understood that
it had to be an attack involving Americans on a scale
larger than the sinking of a ship in the Mid-Atlantic
which had already happened.

What difference did it make?  What if Roosevelt had simply
sat back and busied himself with domestic issues?

John
Aenimal
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21 posted 10-31-2004 10:17 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Yes, they knew an attack was coming, though not where,
and certainly not Pearl Harbor.


Did you read the warnings in the timeline? That information is the result of research into released documents/investigations thanks to the Freedom of Information Act. I've simply sent you one source but there are many books on the subject.

They knew, and were warned repeatedly that Pearl Harbour was the target.
Huan Yi
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22 posted 11-01-2004 01:49 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

I just did a cursory on the timeline you refer to.
While I have no issue with the chronology,
I would take issue with any speculation that Roosevelt
consciously and deliberately left Pearl Harbor unprepared;
that I believe was simple incredulity as to the prospect of attack there,
(as on the Panama Canal which was also suggested as a target),
ignorance, stupidity and bad luck.

As to McArthur, even his biographers can’t explain some
of his lapses, which include delays after Pearl Harbor
which left his air forces subject to destruction on the ground
at Clark and other airfields in the Philippines.

I have read Toland’s account in “The Rising Sun”.

But again,  What if Roosevelt had just kept out of it
as the overwhelming majority of Americans wanted?
What was our concern in Asia?  In Europe?
Why did it matter so much that he and his kind
felt the need to go to just lengths against the
wishes of their countrymen? And were they
justified.  Seems eventually Russia would have
won or at least kept Hitler in check.  Japan
was already stuck and trying to find an honorable
way to get out of China.  What the pressing need
that would eventually cost 350,000 Americans
their lives overseas?


John
Aenimal
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23 posted 11-01-2004 08:33 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Take issue with what you will, the fact of the matter is that Pearl Harbour was specifically stated in warnings as the target of attack.

What pressing need? You mean aside from the obligation to assist your allies, protect your business/trade interests or hey, the moral dilema of allowing a fascist tyrant to gain control or exterminate a large portion of the world? None, none at all.
Brad
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24 posted 11-01-2004 08:48 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

That the attack was a possibility, sure.

That he knew the day and time of the attack?

Are you kidding?

That he still pursued policies that spurred the attack, sure.

That he actually tried to make the attack happen, no.

If you've studied the time as extensively as I have (and I think both of you have), any other conclusions are simply wrong.

 
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