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Missing Explosives, anyone???

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Mistletoe Angel
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75 posted 10-30-2004 11:03 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

"I just finished watching the excerpts from "Stolen Honor". Ron, watch it and then let's talk about truth, patriotism and collateral damage.

Hopefully, enough undecided voters will see it to insure this despicable man does not get into office."


Well, Balladeer, let me say that I have given the nerve to see this controversial film, for I like seeing productions from the other end of the political spectrum to see what they have to say and critique, and all I can say is this is even more discredible than "Fahrenheit 9/11".

This documentary is what's despicable. This "documentary", which is considered "news" according to the biased Sinclair Braodcasting Corporation, not only accuses John Kerry of prolonging the torture of prisoners of war, but EVERYONE IN THE ANTI-WAR MOVEMENT.

Remember how many Americans there were back then?  Maybe not at the beginning, when most backed the war, but eventually, the "pro-war" folks were in the minority.  In time most Americans grew up, aged, and now they KNOW they were NOT WRONG to have opposed the war, and are VERY PROUD that our actions forced the government to end U.S. involvement.

The reason why this wound has never healed to those like Carlton Sherwood is because they insist on picking it until it bleeds, when one knows the scab will only heal if you just let it go and leave it alone.

Wow, it's truly amazing for these veterans to have the audacity to say John Kerry's actions EXTENDED the war in Vietnam. Not Kissinger, not LBJ, not Nixon, all Kerry. That's like saying Nader or Cobb or Kucinich is why this Iraq war is prolonging now. What a sack of deliberate lies there.

While I'm at it, I'll point out and analyze some parts I found incredible:

*************************************

"Their lurid fantasies of butchery in Vietnam were ceased upon by John Kerry to help him organize the so-called Winter Soldier Investigation - the template he would use to brand all Vietnam veterans."

That's a lie. It wasn't Kerry's idea nor was Kerry one of the main organizers. He participated in the WSI as an observer.

"CORDIER: to, for someone to pass himself off as representing all veterans in Vietnam."

Kerry never passed himself off as representing all veterans in Vietnam.

"THORSNESS: And Kerry is giving the capturers ammunition to treat people like that if they are captured."

The amount of torture didn't increase because of what Kerry said. The POWs were tortured before Kerry spoke out and they were tortured after it, too.

"VAN LOAN:  To say that we were rapists, we were murderers, we were pillagers, is absolutely, is absolutely a lie, there's just no two ways about it."

This claim, repeated over and over again in this documentary that Kerry was accusing the POWs of war crimes is wrong. He was referring to the knowledge gained by 150 honorably discharged and decorated veterans who testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia in Detroit in January of 1971. And beyond that, murdering and pillaging have been well documented. It happens in just about every war where soldiers are in contact with an enemy population.

"WARNER: but the guy Kelly was punished for it."

Uh...it's "Calley".

"SHERWOOD VOICEOVER: Yes, all America cringed earlier, in 1969,  when Lieutenant Kelly's actions at the massacre at My Lai hit the front pages. But wasn't this an isolated incident?"

Uh...no.

"Were not the cruelties of My Li exposed by the soldiers there - American soldiers, who refused to participate - whose revulsion compelled them to tell of the horrors they've witnessed?"

Before Ridenhour went straight to the press, didn't the military attempt to cover that up?

"SHERWOOD: Intended or not, Lieutenant Kerry painted a [..] portrait of Vietnam veterans, literally creating an image of those who served in combat as deranged drug-addicted psychopaths, baby-killers. And that odious image has endured impressed upon a popular culture for more than 30 years."

Killing babies is something Kerry never mentioned. And that chant was actually "Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?" When Kerry came back to the US, Nixon was the president. This presents a problem for the theories that assert that Kerry somehow single-handedly destroyed the image of Vietnam veterans.

"JIM WARNER: If he had actually seen these things, would he say that on television, risking the chance that somebody would say "why the hell didn't you stop it?"

Obviously Kerry did say "it" on television. "It" here refers to the things Kerry said he personally witnessed, those things he witnessed on those free fire zones and search and destroy missions. And besides, Kerry did do something to stop it. He talked to his superiors while in Vietnam and talked about his experiences openly when he got home.

"SHERWOOD: Were John Kerry and his fellow anti-war activists responsible for lengthening their imprisonment, and in doing so, causing the deaths of men who may otherwise have survived?"

Actually, again, that would be the opposite!  

****************************************

I'd be happy to talk about truth, patriotism and collateral damage here.



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
hush
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76 posted 10-31-2004 12:31 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

I don't see how anyone could miss the fact that, as in any election, local, state, or national, both sides are lying, slurring, and pulling out the heavy artillery.

A michigan ad has a narrator defending some democratic nominee against the "allegations" that he supports gay marriage. (These "allegations" of something obviously so horrifying, by the way, are untrue. Just listen to that trustworthy voice-over guy.)

Disgusting. And even more disgusting that one side can point a finger and defend their own side. Oh, we don't do that. Bull.
Mistletoe Angel
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77 posted 10-31-2004 01:02 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



I know just what you mean, Hush.

I don't consider myself a Democrat for those exact reasons, that Democrats are also liars and dishonest in many cases and even Clinton, who I still believe is the best of the four presidents we've had since I've been born, did some deliberately dreadful things (such as the Welfare Reform Act and the Telecommunications Act) that have furthered my distance from that party, which I could at least say is better than the current Republican party.

Just because I'm a liberal, it shouldn't mean I have to agree with everything Michael Moore says either. I don't.

I disagree and am disappointed by some of the theories he made in "Bowling For Columbine" for instance, which I still think is an excellent film which its meaning isn't tarnished by a few unfortunate things, such as Moore splicing Heston's words to make it sound like he said "from my cold dead hands" more than once, to the racial theory he made in comparing the violence of America to the lack of violence in Canada.

As far as issues are concerned, I do believe I have a bias there, but I wouldn't call it a "blind bias". I respect what opponents of abortion say, and other sensitive issues like that. I welcome hearing the arguments of others even when my position won't change on some of these issues.

Which is why I think it is important, in response to what Balladeer said earlier, to note out the unilateral edge to "Stolen Honor" by looking at a bulk of the cast of characters behind its production:

********************************************

* Carlton Sherwood (Producer): Producer of Red, White And Blue Productions, who also happens to be the Executive Vice President of the wvc3 group, a firm focusing on homeland security and counterterrorism once tapped by Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge.

* Paul E. Galanti: A retired U.S Navy commander who served in VA 216, who is benefitting from a Homeland Security contract.

* Kenneth Cordier: A retired United States Air Force pilot who served in the 559th TFS Cam Rahn Bay. Has already been caught working for both the Swift Boat veterans For (Truth) and as a Bush veterans affairs advisor.

* Leo Thorsness: That's Republican Senator Leo Thorsness of Seattle.

* Ronald J. Webb: He has served as an official with the FAA during the Bush Admistration.

* Thomas M. McNish: Secretary of Veterans Affairs. Also the head of a 12-member panel on issues affecting former prisoners of war. Same committee that Cordier resigned from when he was connected to the Swiftees.

********************************************

Is it all just a coincidence, or was this project not so much intended to be a documentary but rather 42 minutes of partisan propaganda and slander disguised in the name of "news"?

The lies are on both sides, and they are far from the levels of the presidency and the senate. They are everywhere, and it is just up to our best of judgement to dish out the fools gold.



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Denise
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78 posted 10-31-2004 07:56 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Actually, Hush, I was referring only to the national level, Bush and Kerry. Kerry has persistently been running a negative campaign, attacking Bush, spreading lies and disinformation regarding domestic and foreign policy issues, siezing upon every 'latest' headline for fodder in new attacks, before even getting the facts, (just as he slammed Bush for not immediately implementing the proposals of the 911 Commission five minutes after it was released, before either he or Bush had a chance to even read the report!) all with the help of his liberal friends at CBS and the majority of the print media. I've not seen one incidence of the Bush campaign dishing dirt on Kerry for political gain. All they have done is directed people to look at Kerry's 20 year Senate voting record.

And I think it's telling that only Kerry has used the bin Laden tape for political purposes, saying that it is further evidence of Bush's incompetence (after his initial conciliatory, "united America" remarks).

And I'm also not talking about the 527s either, over which the candidates have no control, but even there, Democratic supporters have outspent the Republican supporters by 9-1, so I think it is rediculous for them to complain about 527s.

John, the majority of the Vietnam Vets were not murderers.
Mistletoe Angel
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79 posted 10-31-2004 01:09 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

"Kerry has persistently been running a negative campaign, attacking Bush, spreading lies and disinformation regarding domestic and foreign policy issues..."

Interesting.

While we're on the subject of negative campaign ads, let me remind you that the Campaign Media Analysis Group found that the Bush campaign, from the beginning of the presidential campaign to June 1, 2004,  had run ads saying negative things about Kerry 49,050 times, amounting to 75 percent of Bush's campaign advertising. Kerry, in contrast, in that same time frame, ran negative ads against Bush 13,336 times, or just 27 percent of his total.

As far as campaigns are concerned, Bush is the far more aggressive of the two here. And while Kerry has ran negative ads in this final sprint, Bush is no stranger either, continuing his attempt to turn "liberal" into a black word with all his "wolves" fear-mongering and "Kerry and liberals in Congress..." rhetoric.

You think the liberals get special treatment because of CBS? Fox News is like the 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year campaign advertisement for Bush. According to Fairness in Accuracy and reporting, in the week leading up to the beginning of the war in Iraq, of 393 interviews ran on four major nightly newscasts (CBS, NBC, ABC and PBS’s NewsHour with Jim Lehrer) and of the 393 interviews done around war, only three were with anti-war representatives. That certainly shows me not even Jim Lehrer is that liberal.

By the way, Bush is no stranger to using the bin Laden tape in his campaign rhetoric either and you know that. Both Bush and Kerry have denounced what Osama said and vow to hunt him down.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Balladeer
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80 posted 10-31-2004 06:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Noah, your response, although very well-presented, is the exact type of response I would have expected and the same response that Democrats have been using throughout the campaign. If something denigrates Bush, it's excellent. If something denigrates Kerry, it's all Bush's fault and the Democrats scream foul and insults. The Stolen Honor documentary presented the exact film clips of Kerry's speeches against the American Forces in Viet-Nam. He does not present it as isolated events but as if the entire American forces were involved. You dare to say the tortures did not increase because of Kerry's words? Where did you get that information? They were there - you weren't even born yet and you're going to call them liars?

In case the documentaries didn't impress you enough let me display an excerpt from Kerry at the 1971 Senate hearings, published  by Crosby Noyes from the Washington Evening Star..

  (Audiotape, April 18, 1971):

MR. CROSBY NOYES (Washington Evening Star): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

KERRY: "There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions........"


What's that all about, Noah? You have a strong belief in honesty and integrity I know. Well, there is your hero claiming to have willingly participated in the murder of innocents and razing of villages. The man is confessing to murder and even acknowledging that his actions were contrary to the laws of warfare. He admitted he committed acts which were punishable by law. He was no private - he was an officer.The group that marched in defense of the innocents of the world you belong to? Kerry helped shoot them. The man should have been put in jail. Instead he serves in the Senate for two decades and now runs for president. Only in America....

Enjoy your hero, Noah. He should be everything you are against and instead you want him to run the country....I wish you luck.

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank a soldier.

Mistletoe Angel
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81 posted 10-31-2004 10:09 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Well Balladeer, considering we are opposite sides of the political spectrum, I guess it also provides differing perspectives on what honesty and integrity is.

It's true I didn't even live during the Vietnam era, as I was born in 1983, twelve years after the 1971 Winter Soldier hearing. Nevertheless, no matter when you're born, you can learn these ethics and grow and understand exactly what was so wrong about Vietnam and, now, Iraq.

Because I am greatly influenced by the activist heroes of the Vietnam era, from the musicians to the poets to the whistleblowers, I have taken great time and effort researching the dark truth behind this war. I'd say I lack the experience aspect of the situation, having not lived it and may not have the fullest psychological aesthetic reaction to it, but the world also needs perceivers and the intuitive, those who witness patterns of this behavior and anthropology, etc.

I've read many Vietnam-related books and watched many Vietnam-related films. Noam Chomsky's "The Manufacturing of Consent", "Hearts And Minds" by Peter Davis is an excellent film that portrays deeply the conflicted opinions of that war, and Gabriel Kolko's "Vietnam: Anatomy of a Peace" to name a few. I also always attend public peace rallies where many Vietnam veterans attend and they tell me their experiences, for I find you shouldn't only have facts, but listen to experiences as well because you never know where another piece of the story could come up. Democracy Now! provides some good historical data, etc.

And ever since Kerry won the Iowa and New Hampshire primaries, I already knew he'd inevitably win the nomination because of the Anybody But Bush fever and so I began finding out more about him and learned he was the same Kerry who spoke out at the Vietnam war. So I read transcripts, heard an audio recording of his testimony, etc. and relating to fellow veteran friends who have lived the experiences themselves and interviewing them or asking them questions, it gave some added needed detail.

I've been very opinionated since I was 12, though it wasn't until September 11th when I recognized there is a major conflict in the world and not until Bush declared war that I really got involved deeply in activism, so I'm pretty new to this. I've been researching like a mad scientist almost ever since Iraq first began, and relate my studies to those of my activist friends and loved ones to see how accurate they are, etc.

As for the Evening Star snippet you've provided, I definitely wouldn't say I'm proud of anyone performing such an action like burning a village or firing machine guns on mission, but Kerry at least had the courage to say he did take part in it at one point and was honest about it. He obviously regrets this ever so much, just as much as he regrets ever serving in a war like that, and he took his emotion and channeled it into seeing to it this war be ended. What he said there is honest.

Can you still not see the whole purpose of the Winter Soldier hearings? Those like Kerry knew the American public had to know the dark, disturbing truths of what happened there. They knew they just couldn't bury their silence, they had to confess and speak of these crimes that threaten the heart of America. Expose the psychological warfare monster, and hope through listening and breaking the silence, the nation could turn away from that "monster" and say "Never again!".

According to what you say and believe about Kerry and his infamous acts in the war, shouldn't you also agree with the Noam Chomsky philosophy that "if the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged"?

You consider Kerry despicable and Bush not, someone who won't admit a single mistake or take responsibility for anything? I think personally Bush should be put behind bars for life for him and his administration largely responsible for the deaths of over eleven hundred of our young men and women and approximately 100,000 innocent Iraqis. It's HIS decisions that have made this all possible, and by the day more and more die, the tallies higher each month, yet Bush still says "we're not turning back!".

But besides his lies and exaggerations and euphemisms he frequently exhibits in his policies and decision-making, yeah, I guess Bush is pretty honest personally.

After all, when he was on Air Force One on the Fourth of July of last year, he said, "I'm also not very analytical. You know I don't spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things!"

That certainly explains a lot.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Midnitesun
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82 posted 10-31-2004 10:23 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

"I'd say I lack the experience aspect of the situation, having not lived it and may not have the fullest psychological aesthetic reaction to it.."
Thank God for that, Noah, and ya know? you DON'T have to be part of any war to know it is a horrible horible experience.
I don't have to be in Iraq to know it is a total hell hole, for virtually everyone, not just American soldiers.
I voted for Kerry, and I'm damn proud of it, even though he isn't the perfect choice for me. The perfect choices don't seem to have the political clout and financial backing that the majority party reps have.
As for those missing explosives? That is really just one of many things that have gone wrong with this wretched war.
Damn, I sure do want a change in leadership in this country.
Mistletoe Angel
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83 posted 10-31-2004 10:56 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Fear not, Kacy, fear not, for I am optimistic a fresh new start is coming, change will come!



I'll tell you this. In case there really is a draft intended in the minds of some top politicians and in case it really does happen (I choose not to jump to conclusions but judging by the sneakiness of this administration already, it won't be all too suprising if this happens) I will choose a prison sentence, for I am vowing on my life not to serve under a corrupt administration or government.

It's a bold and brave move to make, but I'm not going to do the dirty laundry of a reckless administration. I work and live for building communities and peacemongering, and at least behind bars you could have the silence to harness peace with yourself, and the minute you are released you can once again share peace among others.



Even Bush said May 7th of last year in Washington D.C, "I think war is a dangerous place." We don't need to keep punishing ourselves like this, it shouldn't take much to understand war is not the answer. To those who have really lived the traumatizing experiences, war could sure feel like a place you're trapped in, but we could be free from it. We really can.

I've voted Kerry too and defend my vote.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

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84 posted 11-01-2004 12:29 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

WEll, Noah, let me say in all sincerity that I salute your dedication to your beliefs and the thoroughness in which you immerse yourself in what you consider important.

As far as Viet Nam is concerned with respect to the pows I don't think you can know any more than I what they endured there and what was used against them.

As far as your comparison between Kerry's actions and Bush's actions, I had no doubt that would be your answer and I'm disappointed you used it. Believe me there is a difference between a politician sending troops to war and a man with a gun in his hand shooting innocent people. Why don't we say then that Al Capone was no worse than FDR? You say in justification that at least Kerry admitted it. Does that mean that if Al Capone admitted it his actions would be pardonable, too? John Kerry is a self-confessed hands-on murderer and your comparisons simply show you cannot, or refuse to, accept his own words because then you would have to acknowledge you support that type of individual. Obviously you are not willing to do that.

Best to you....
Mistletoe Angel
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85 posted 11-01-2004 12:54 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Balladeer, I understand you yourself served there and I do respect your opinion, I really do.

All the same, you just can't speak for all your fellow veterans there. Indeed there are many who still believe going there was right, but there are also so many who know Vietnam was a disaster and it was wrong and they also know it was right to return and protest the nation's involvement in that war.

If you felt the tone in my previous responses insinuated to you that I was speaking for all veterans, I righteously apologize. You're right, I can't possibly know any more than you do or anyone in that manner. The fact is, it takes all kinds to understand such sensitive events like this, as would Iraq.

Now I wasn't alive then, I didn't serve then, nor will I ever serve in any war. But, like Kacy said, you don't have to go to war to understand just how wrong or immoral it is, just by the pictures and video caps and heartwrenching anecdotes you hear.

Let it be known that I don't trust Kerry. I don't think you can expect to trust any politician. You could believe or be obedient to one, but politicians are the least likely people you can ever trust.

There is much that seperates me from Kerry. I am not convinced he is all anti-war, as I've already specified before many times. I do believe he is morally superior to Bush, for he had the courage to admit his wrongs, Bush doesn't. Kerry had the courage to call Iraq the wrong war, Bush thinks it's the right war despite the increasing and accelerating violence there.

Perhaps there's a physical difference in what you've said, but tangibly one who sits in the background allowing such atrocities to happen and does nothing to stop them is just as guilty as someone who actually commits the atrocities.

It's this administration's fault and responsibility we have sunk into this war we cannot win, it's largely this administration's fault hundreds of our young men and women have died and approximately a hundred thousand Iraqis have been murdered, and it's all this adminstration's fault that because of their recklessness and impatience, we don't even have a clear exit strategy, and in result many more will die until one is in final planning stages.

Bush sure has a lot of penitence to make for these massive atrocities, and he hasn't even gotten through step one of the forgiveness process; admitting his wrongs. We'll see if he can be as human as Kerry and wisen up.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

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86 posted 11-01-2004 01:34 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Allow me to clarify, Noah. I DO NOT feel that going to Viet Nam was right...and I certainly have no ill will against those who protested against it. Portesting against what one believes is injustice is a right this country allows.

My complaint with Kerry was not that he protested the war - it was the way he portrayed the AMerican soldier over there. He made his accusations sound as if every soldier there were involved in selseless killings, butchery and lawlessness. I can sssure you it was not so. Why would he do it? Simple - to get attention and further his own career. He would brand tens of thousands of soldiers as criminals to further his career...and he did it knowing that it was largely a lie. Now he comes out and says perhaps he exaggerated and was a little over-zealous. THAT is what I despise about John Kerry. He was after the sensationalism of it and because of comments like his, soldiers returning from duty there were treated like lepers...you saw no parades or acknowledgement for them. We had to sneak in the back door like thieves in the night and wear our service as a badge of shame. That is the legacy of people like John Kerry - and that's why I despise him most of all.

Imagine, if you will, Noah, you being a father back in that time with a son serving in Viet Nam. How would you feel about a man calling your son, by inclusion, a murderous, out of control, drug-addicted freak gone amok? How would you feel if your son were treated that way after returning home from simply doing the duty his government called on him to do? How would you feel about the man making those allegations? Right now there are still thousands of Viet Nam vets alive. Take my word for it that those who vote for Kerry, if any, will comprise a microscopic percentage.
Huan Yi
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87 posted 11-01-2004 02:26 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

A President John Kerry, as Commander In Chief,
would be devastating to troop morale
in all the services.  So much so, I think
should he be elected, any soldier requesting it should
be released immediately from his enlistment.
Further I would support any soldier refusing to serve
in Iraq after his election.


And it’s one two three
what are we fightin’ for
Oh I don’t much give a crap
Next stop is old Iraq
And it’s five six seven
Kerry said it's a big mistake
Oh there ain’t no time to wonder why
My kid ain’t goin’ to die.


John
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88 posted 11-01-2004 04:20 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Noah,

“But, like Kacy said, you don't have to go to war to understand just how wrong or immoral it is, just by the pictures and video caps and heartwrenching anecdotes you hear.”

Did you hear this one:

“The Massacre at Hue
Time Magazine October 31, 1969
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"At first the men did not dare step into the stream," one of the searchers recalled. "But the sun was going down and we finally entered the water, praying to the dead to pardon us." The men who were probing the shallow creek in a gorge south of Hue prayed for pardon because the dead had lain unburied for l9 months; according to Vietnamese belief, their souls are condemned to wander the earth as a result. In the creek, the search team found what it had been looking for--some 250 skulls and piles of bones. "The eyeholes were deep and black, and the water flowed over the ribs," said an American who was at the scene.

The gruesome discovery late last month brought to some 2,300 the number of bodies of South Vietnamese men, women and children unearthed around Hue. All were executed by the Communists at the time of the savage 25-day battle for the city during the Tet offensive of 1968. The dead in the creek in Nam Hoa district belonged to a group of 398 men from the Hue suburb of Phu Cam. On the fifth day of the battle, Communist soldiers appeared at Phu Cam cathedral, where the men had sought refuge with their families, and marched them off. The soldiers said that the men would be indoctrinated and then allowed to return, but their families never heard of them again. At the foot of the Nam Hoa mountains, ten miles from the cathedral, the captives were shot or bludgeoned to death.

Shallow Graves. When the battle for Hue ended Feb. 24, 1968, some 3,500 civilians were missing. A number had obviously died in the fighting and lay buried under the rubble. But as residents and government troops began to clean up, they came across a series of shallow mass graves just east of the Citadel, the walled city that shelters Hue's old imperial palace. About 150 corpses were exhumed from the first mass grave, many tied together with wire and bamboo strips. Some had been shot, others had apparently been buried alive. Most had been either government officials or employees of the Americans, picked up during a door-to-door hunt by Viet Cong cadres who carried detailed blacklists. Similar graves were found inside the city and to the southwest near the tombs where Viet Nam's emperors lie buried. Among those dug out were the bodies of three German doctors who had worked at the University of Hue.

Search Operation. Throughout that first post-Tet year, there were persistent rumors that something terrible had happened on the sand flats southeast of the city. Last March, a farmer stumbled on a piece of wire; when he tugged at it, a skeletal hand rose from the dirt. The government immediately launched a search operation. "There were certain stretches of land where the grass grew abnormally long and green," Time Correspondent Wllllam Mormon reported last week from Hue. "Beneath this ominously healthy flora were mass graves, 20 to 40 bodies to a grave. As the magnitude of the finds became apparent, business came to a halt and scores flocked out to Phu Thu to look for long-missing relatives, sifting through the remains of clothes, shoes and personal effects. "They seemed to be hoping they would find someone and at the same time hoping they wouldn't," said an American official. Eventually, about 24 sites were unearthed and the remains of 809 bodies were found.

The discovery at the creek in Nam Boa district did not come until last month--after a tip from three Communist soldiers who had defected to the government. The creek and its grisly secret were hidden under such heavy jungle canopy that landing zones had to be blasted out before helicopters could fly in with the search team. For three weeks, the remains were arranged on long shelves at a nearby school, and hundreds of Hue citizens came to identify their missing relatives. "They had no reason to kill these people," said Mrs. Le Thi Bich Phe, who lost her husband.

Negligible Propaganda. What triggered the Communist slaughter? Many Hue citizens believe that the execution orders came directly from Ho Chi Minh. More likely, however, the Communists simply lost their nerve. They had been led to expect that many South Vietnamese would rally to their cause during the Tet onslaught. That did not happen, and when the battle for Hue began turning in the allies' favor, the Communists apparently panicked and killed off their prisoners.

The Saigon government, which claims that the Communists have killed 25,000 civilians since 1967 and abducted another 46,000, has made negligible propaganda use of the massacre. In Hue it has not had to. Says Colonel Le Van Than, the local province chief: "After Tet, the people realized that the Viet Cong would kill them, regardless of political belief." That fearful thought haunts many South Vietnamese, particularly those who work for their government or for the Americans. With the U.S. withdrawal under way, the massacre of Hue might prove a chilling example of what could lie ahead. “

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CTcv


?

John

Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


89 posted 11-01-2004 05:23 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Noah,

"Noahs raped women, killed men, sexually tortured and murdered children."

Now, how many Noahs are needed to make that statement accurate,
and how many would a reader think were meant?

If you say it's wrong; one could respond that you can’t speak for all Noahs.

See how it’s done?

John

P.S. Instead of Noahs, you can substitute your favorite other name, race, creed, or religion.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


90 posted 11-01-2004 09:33 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

No, you can only substitute a name.

Be very careful, you are walking on very think ice right now.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


91 posted 11-01-2004 09:35 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I'm confused now. The apostrophe was left off in the quote?"

Can somebody elaborate here?

Where's the original quote?
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


92 posted 11-01-2004 07:23 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Brad,

The statement is obviously absurd,
and yet with “American soldiers” substituted
similar statements were made
and even now defended.

It’s a taste of how vets feel.

In a conversation with Mom,
I said “It’s like when they said Poles
were stupid and dirty.” which sent her
reminiscing down DP Hunkie Lane.
Only it was worst.

Maybe some old “Babykillers”
can illustrate further.


John
http://www.iwvpa.net/o_donnellmd/remember.htm

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (11-01-2004 08:14 PM).]

Mistletoe Angel
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City of Roses


93 posted 11-01-2004 08:35 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Balladeer, thank you for clarifying. I apologize if you thought I was painting you as someone who still thought going to Vietnam was right and defend that war, which I wasn't intentionally trying to do by the way, for I was just trying to make the point there are veterans for Bush, veterans for Kerry, veterans for the war in Iraq, veterans against the war in Iraq, and we can't just speak for them all.

I was also trying to illustrate that in Vietnam, at first, a clear majority did defend the war, but in time as more and more bad news and news of losses piled up, approval ratings went down and disapproval ratings went up, and in time, those against the war were the majority, those still in defense the minority.

The case is the same for Iraq. Though it wouldn't be fair to say the anti-war group is the majority quite yet (it's consistently been split-even for months now) the approval ratings were much higher when it began last year. Now it is a polarized opinion. And despite a majority believing by a 2 to 1 margin usually that Bush could be a better fighter on the war on terror, Bush's approval ratings struggles to reach 50% now, a bad sign for any incumbent historically.

Again, I've heard and analyzed Kerry's testimony and I am certain he clearly referred to the administrations, and the chief commanders and the superiors who left many of their young boys behind. I am one who believes (and there are many who believe) that Kerry's testimony did not portray the average American soldier as senseless, lawless butchers. I find he didn't generalize the atrocities to the typical soldier in Vietnam. Indeed he was speaking fiercely of the 150 who confessed their crimes in Detroit of January 1971, and Kerry was just trying to get the dark truth across to the American people. At the time, many conspired to keep potential whistleblowers and activists from making their case and what Kerry brought the American public was essential by all means, to offer a refrain, "Never again!"

I'm sorry to hear of that experience you went through you've just shared, going out the back door, etc. It saddens me too to know of the reactions to veterans upon returning home, being spit at, boots being stomped on, cold emotionless faces of contempt staring at them. I think so many forgot then that soldiers are human beings, they are our own siblings and flesh and blood.

But, once again, I believe it's unfair to just generalize that it is because of comments like Kerry's that inspired this disgruntled, antagonist behavior of contempt to them. My veteran friend Richard at the PPRC believes it was rather that America had this reputation for never losing a war, and the purpose of America in war is to win the war, and the many who booed them upon arrival back antagonized those like himself because they were losers.

If I was in that very scenario you speak of, there's no question it would be difficult and so many emotions would be enshrouding me and my son. But first, I'd recognize how immoral and frightening war is, and how it seems the make the worst out of us and turn us into monsters out there on the fields, so it would be painful to imagine my son under that description, but I wouldn't take my frustration out on him, because I know he's still my little boy and know growing up, he was never under that same description and believe because I wasn't there myself and can't ever begin to imagine psychologically what he went through, the conditions and events he encountered, the people he had been with, etc. it couldn't have been him that was so rambunctious. And if anyone shrieked out accusing my son of such things, I would do what any father would do and hear the words but defend my flesh and blood, even taking flung beer bottles or stones or tomatoes if I had to.

Now, if I was living in this time and I heard Kerry's same words, I imagine it would indeed leave me frozen in contemplation for quite a while, it would indeed be heavy, and maybe the first time hearing it I may miss something and would have to hear it several more times to understand exactly what he said, and I guess I could understand how many may have took Kerry the wrong way after hearing it once because there was so much substance it's hard to take the whole and analyze it all at once and perhaps many hadn't heard the speech again since that April day, but hearing how he enunciated his statements pretty clearly, I would believe he was specifically lashing out at Agnew, Kissinger, LBJ, Nixon, and top military officials, NOT the young men, our very sons, my son, who were drafted and forced there under rigid orders.

Now, had Kerry or someone like him said everything otherwise and it obviously and bluntly was referring to ALL troops, I would resent that, and don't you think if that were the case Kerry or others who followed his lead would never have had a chance at a political career?

*******************************************

Huan Yi, you will win some and you will lose some. I think if Kerry elected, and am pretty confident he will be November 3rd or whenever everything is tallied up, those troops and military families who still believe going to Iraq was the right thing to do and that we can win this war could be demoralized, but about half the nation believes the war was wrong and I think their moral will increase.

All I can say in this impasse situation is, perhaps, "you'll thank him later!"

And Huan Yi, I absolutely agree with you that every soldier who refuses to serve in Iraq should have the right not to have to. Shouldn't that be the right under ANY administration, during any course of action?

Yes, just like that article you've shared, it shows just how terrible and horrifying war is, period.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton



"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Ron
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94 posted 11-01-2004 08:38 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
It’s a taste of how vets feel.

I hope you're speaking only for yourself, John.

You're certainly not speaking for me.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


95 posted 11-01-2004 09:14 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ron,

No,

I was very lucky.

In this case, I’m speaking for Monk
who went crazy,
and Mike,
who years later did to himself
what the VC and NVA had tried to do
to him while he was there.

And that’s as far I as I will go about them.

I will say this.  I will support any soldier
who now refuses to submit himself to the risk
of being characterized and treated as they were.


John

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since 06-05-99
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


96 posted 11-01-2004 10:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Noah, again I thank you for the way you conduct yourself and respond. I have also learned never to get you mad at me because being pelted by tomatoes from you would be too much to bear!!!

One of the most difficult things I find to understand about Kerry supporters is...the terrorists support Kerry! The same people who have made attacks on the United States for over a decade, the ones who have killed Americans want Kerry to win. To me, in a rational world, that would automatically mean don't vote for Kerry! Osama wants Kerry to win. In his last video he states that any state that votes for Bush will face sever consequences. The same man who engineered the WTC attack supports Kerry! Doesn't that tell you something? Why would anyone want to vote for the man the terrorists want in power? The only reason I can think of is that the terrorist groups are used to attacking American embassies, ships, even America itself and not have any specific retalitory consequences. Now thay are dealing with the madman Bush who has them hiding in caves, uniting countries in a war against terrorism, and basically taking away their ability to move around freely. Their "safe" zones are not safe any more. They want someone like Kerry. Of course they want Bush out of power....but why would you?? When you vote for Kerry you are voting for the terrorist's choice and ,if he wins, you will raise your voices along with them in celebration. Do you like that picture?
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


97 posted 11-01-2004 11:07 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

"In his last video he states that any state that votes for Bush will face sever consequences."

What is the exact quote?
As I understood it, he said it made no
difference; it was the policies that
had to change.

John
Balladeer
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98 posted 11-01-2004 11:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It was on the news today that that was a part that had not been translated yet when presented to the public. I would expect it to                              show up soon.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


99 posted 11-01-2004 11:20 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Noah,

“Again, I've heard and analyzed Kerry's testimony and I am certain he clearly referred to the administrations, and the chief commanders and the superiors who left many of their young boys behind. I am one who believes (and there are many who believe) that Kerry's testimony did not portray the average American soldier as senseless, lawless butchers. I find he didn't generalize the atrocities to the typical soldier in Vietnam. Indeed he was speaking fiercely of the 150 who confessed their crimes in Detroit of January 1971, and Kerry was just trying to get the dark truth across to the American people”


"The Fraud of the Winter Soldier

THAT is the crux of my problem with John Kerry’s dissent. For the most part it was based on fraud. His dissent was NOT based in truth. His dissent was not conducted responsibly. It was, in my opinion, based on mischaracterization, outright lies, and fraud....

To reveal the depth of dishonesty present, Al Hubbard, one of the founders of the VVAW and its Executive Secretary, claimed to be an Air Force pilot, wounded in Viet Nam. In fact, Hubbard was never an officer, never wounded and never in Viet Nam. VVAW members Elton Mazione, John Laboon, Eddie Swetz and Kenneth Van Lesser all claimed to have been a part of the Phoenix program in Viet Nam where they routinely killed children and removed body parts as a part of their duty. They were shown to have never been in the Phoenix program nor had they ever been in Viet Nam. And the list of more frauds later found within the organization is mind-boggling.

So this is the organization with which Kerry was associated when he used the “horrible stories” generated by Mark Lane and the VVAW’s “Winter Soldier investigation” as the basis of his Congressional “testimony” later that year, saying at one point:

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.” [emphasis added]

Not content with this outright lie, he stated further on in his “testimony”:

”It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people in this country: the question of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions; also the use of weapons, the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage in the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war, when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions, in the use of free-fire zones, harassment, interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, the killing of prisoners - accepted policy in many units in South Vietnam.”

This too is a complete and utter lie.”

http://qando.net/archives/002160.htm

 
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