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Missing Explosives, anyone???

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Brad
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25 posted 10-27-2004 10:09 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

But no one has answered my question yet.

What major media?

Tell me where I'm supposed to look and not find anything and I'll look.

Brad
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26 posted 10-27-2004 10:15 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=196807

Okay, maybe I'm just missing something, but why is this a hoax?

Brad
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27 posted 10-27-2004 10:46 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

http://www.republicansforkerry.org/

quote:
Swiftboat Vets, Iraq Vets:
John Kerry Was and Is Your Best Friend



In discussing Ronald Reagan, a line from one of his movies is
sometimes used:



"Where's the rest of me?!" --as Drake McHugh in the 1942 film,
King's Row.



Swiftboat Vets ought to give the same kind of consideration to John
Kerry. Because what he stood for – particularly in the rest of his
testimony before Congress in 1971, gives a real clue to the meaning of
his post-war activities, which have become the source of so much
bitterness this election season.



Let's parse his words. First of all, Kerry's testimony was for the
purpose of calling the leadership of that era to account for having
entered into that war in the first place:



And that is what we are trying to say, that we think this thing
has to end.



We are here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently,
where are the leaders of our country? Where is the
leadership? We're here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow,
Bundy, Gilpatrick, and so many others? Where are they now
that we, the men they sent off to war, have returned?
These are the commanders who have deserted their troops.
And there is no more serious crime in the laws of war. The
Army says they never leave their wounded. The marines say
they never even leave their dead. These men have left all
the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of
public rectitude. They've left the real stuff of their reputations
bleaching behind them in the sun in this country....



So the real ire of Citizen Kerry here is not "the many highly
decorated veterans" who, in telling their own stories, "testified
to war crimes." Kerry asks, "Where is the leadership?" Where are
Johnson and McNamara and Bundy, who started, and
accelerated that war?



What is he really asking?



We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own
memories of that service as easily as this administration has
wiped away their memories of us.



Which veteran wants to relish his memories of the hardships of war?
The last I read, Robert McNamara is getting married again at age 88.



And on whose behalf is Kerry asking these things?



But all that they [Johnson, McNamara, etc.] have done and all
that they can do by this denial is to make more clear than ever
our own determination to undertake one last mission - to
search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war, to
pacify our own hearts, to conquer the hate and fear that have
driven this country these last ten years and more. And more.
And so when thirty years from now our brothers go down
the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and
small boys ask why, we will be able to say "Vietnam" and
not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory, but
mean instead where America finally turned and where
soldiers like us helped it in the turning.



And so, Vietnam Veterans, John Kerry, in 1971, was looking toward
your future. In 1971, Kerry wanted the small children of 2001 to look
back at the Vietnam era, as a time when certain soldiers worked to
"conquer the hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten
years and more."



Who, again, wants to relive the "glories" of the Vietnam war? In a
reminder of Augustine's words here, Kerry wanted to bring it to an
end:



I know the objection that a good ruler will wage wars only if
they are just. But, surely, if he will only remember that he is a
man, he will begin by bewailing the necessity he is under of
waging even just wars. A good man would be under compulsion
to wage no wars at all, if there were not such things as just
wars. A just war, moreover, is justified only by the injustice of
an aggressor; and that injustice ought to be a source of grief to
any good man, because it is human injustice. It would be
deplorable in itself, apart from being a source of conflict.



Any man who will consider sorrowfully evils so great, such
horrors and such savagery (of war), will admit his human
misery. And if there is any man who can endure such
calamities, or even contemplate them without feeling
grief, his condition is all the more wretched for that.
(Augustine, "City of God.")



Augustine was a third and fourth century Christian philosopher and
theologian who first articulated the idea that there might be "just
wars."



For the evangelical Christians among us, (and I am one), we must not
forget the words of Jesus, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take
["live by"] the sword will perish by the sword." I am pretty sure the
Savior, in using the word "all," was articulating a general principle. He
spoke about that kind of thing elsewhere: "Blessed are the
peacemakers." See also 1 Peter 3:11: "seek peace and pursue it,"
which is a quotation from Psalm 34, and also Paul, "God has called us
to peace." Admittedly, Paul is speaking of peace in family situations,
but he extends it outward as well," If it is possible, as much as
depends on you, live peaceably with all men" (Romans 12:18). He
says this very near the same place where he says, "Let every soul be
subject to the governing authorities."

Brad
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28 posted 10-27-2004 11:51 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

New York Times

quote:
But Mr. Bush on Thursday did not address a critical issue raised by the discovery of the missed explosives: why American forces were not alerted to the existence of a huge cache of explosives, even though the atomic energy agency and American officials had publicly discussed the threat it posed, and knew its exact location.

The commander of the troops that went into the Al Qaqaa facility on the way to Baghdad in early April, Col. Joseph Anderson, of the Second Brigade of the Army's 101st Airborne Division, has said he was never told the site was considered sensitive, or that international inspectors had visited it before the war began.


Can someone show me where any of this has been disproved?

[Edited to fix long URL - Ron]


[This message has been edited by Ron (10-28-2004 01:07 AM).]

Huan Yi
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29 posted 10-28-2004 12:44 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Noah,

"What about that widow of September 11th, Ellen Mariani, the wife of Louis Neil Mariani, who died when terrorists flew United Airlines Flight 175 into the World Trade Center's south tower? She had come to believe top American officials including Bush, Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, and others had foreknowledge of the attacks, purposefully failed to prevent them, and had since taken pains to cover up the truth."


And let’s not forget all those millions
in the Moslem world convinced it was a
Jewish plot.  Millions!  Millions can’t be wrong,
can they!

John
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30 posted 10-28-2004 01:28 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Brad,


"Attitude of South Vietnamese Army and People Toward Withdrawal

Senator Aiken: I think your 3,000 estimate might be a little low because we had to help 800,000 find sanctuary from North Vietnam after the French lost at Dienbienphu. But assuming that we resettle the members of the Saigon government, who would undoubtedly be in danger, in some other area, what do you think would be the attitude, of the large, well-armed South Vienamese army and the South Vietnamese people? Would they be happy to have us withdraw or what?

Mr. Kerry: Well, Senator, this obviously is the most difficult question of all, but I think that at this point the United States is not really in a position to consider the happiness of those people as pertains to the army in our withdrawal. We have to consider the happiness of the people as pertains to the life which they will be able to lead in the next few years.

If we don't withdraw, if we maintain a Korean-type presence in South Vietnam, say 50,000 troops or something, with strategic combing raids from Guam and from Japan and from Thailand dropping these 15,000 pound fragmentation bombs on them, et cetera, in the next few years, then what you will have is a people who are continually oppressed, who are continually at warfare, and whose problems will not at all be solved because they will not have any kind of representation.

The war will continue. So what I am saying is that yes, there will be some recrimination but far, far less than the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America”


http://www.nationalreview.com/document/kerry200404231047.asp


“the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America”

That and comments like it are what have the vets angry.  Vets, the vast majority
of whom had nothing to do with the atrocities John Kerry characterized them with.

John

PS: It is commonly estimated that three quarters of a million Vietnamese
died in their attempts to escape after the fall/liberation  of Saigon.
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31 posted 10-28-2004 03:49 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

CNSNews.com) - NBC News reported Monday night that 380 tons of missing explosives were already gone when U.S. troops arrived at the Al-Qaqaa weapons installation in April 2003 - one day after Saddam's government was toppled.

NBC should know. It had a reporter embedded with the U.S. troops when they arrived at Al-Qaqaa in April 2003.

While the Kerry campaign blasted the Bush administration for "stunning incompetence" on Monday, many Bush supporters questioned the timing of Monday's New York Times report about the missing explosives -- coming as it did just eight days before the presidential election.

NBC News Correspondent Jim Miklaszewski suggested a political motive as well: In his report on the missing explosives Monday night, he quoted one official as saying, "Recent disagreements between the administration and the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency makes this announcement appear highly political."

According to the New York Times, the IAEA said it had warned the Bush administration about the need to secure the Al-Qaqaa facility both before and after the war.

In a follow-up report on Tuesday, the New York Times did not mention the fact that NBC had an embedded reporter on the scene when the missing explosives were discovered -- the day after Baghdad fell.

Tuesday's New York Times report -- entitled "Iraq Explosives Become Issue in Campaign" -- covers how the Bush administration "sought to explain the disappearance of 380 tons of high explosives in Iraq that American forces were supposed to secure."

Bush's aides, the Tuesday article said, "tried to explain why American forces had ignored warnings from the International Atomic Energy Agency about the vulnerability of the huge stockpile of high explosives, whose disappearance was first reported on Monday by CBS and The New York Times."

The New York Times report portrayed the Bush administration as being on the defensive -- trying to "minimize the importance of the loss" of the military explosives.

The report noted that President Bush "never mentioned the disappearance of the high explosives during a long campaign speech in Greeley, Colo., about battling terrorism."

"There are certainly some questions about when the explosives were missing," Kerry campaign adviser Howard Wolfson admitted on Fox & Friends early Tuesday morning. But the Kerry campaign is not expected to let the matter drop.


No, Kerry will not let the matter drop even though the Times and CBS are doing damage control, changing the tone of their story and now claiming no one knows when the disappearance actually occured, something I call CYA.

Kerry will not let the matter drop because he has seen that bad news from Iraq results in a rise for him in the polls therefore he will continue to paint it in the blackest  possible. He will blast the administration and even the troops over there at every opportunity for a percentage point rise. Denigrating the troops on the ground is nothing new for this man who claims to have such respect for the military. He did it 30 years ago and continues to do it today if he feels it will help his political standing. If his words, at a time we have troops on the groung fighting, make their jobs tougher and gives aid to the enemy, he does not care. I have no problem considering the man's actions those of a traitor....and all for the sake of a few votes. Is it any wonder that the polls of the Army, Navy Air Force and Marine Times give Kerry a 65-75% disapproval rating? You want to see some real voting manipulation? Just wait to see what Kerry comes up with to try to disallow the absentee votes of the military at the last minute in much the same way Gore tried it 4 years ago. The military wants little to do with this decorated hero of Viet Nam....and he knows it.
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32 posted 10-28-2004 09:08 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brad:

Disproved?  Maybe not.  Explained ... probably.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041028-122637-6257r.htm

Jim
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33 posted 10-28-2004 10:18 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Gee, what a surprise. John, do you want to redo your numbers there? Or do you want me to correct them for you.

Kerry was right then, and he's right now.

Brad
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34 posted 10-28-2004 10:24 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Sorry Jim,

I read that article and more confused now than before. The Russians did it, maybe, but it was impossible to move them out without being detected?

Are they saying that GPS wasn't watching Iraq before the war,only after?

It seems to me that so far we've got a bunch of maybe's but they were there before, they aren't now.

Does that sound about right?
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35 posted 10-28-2004 11:01 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brad:

We do know they were there before.  We do know they are not there now.  Consider what we don't know:

1. Who moved them?
2. When were they moved?
3. How were they moved?
4. Why didn't we detect their movement?
5. Who is responsible for their loss?

Unless we know the answers to 1, 2, 3 and 4, we will have great difficulty answering 5.  Perhaps Kerry is prescient ... dunno.  I know I am not.  Conclusions require credible support.

What bugs me most, I think (and this is my strong belief in due process shining through), is Kerry's wreckless assignment of blame on the President for the missing explosives.  If you and I don't have enough facts to draw a reasoned conclusion, how is Kerry drawing such a specific conclusion from the same facts?  And one wonders why "rhetoric" has come to be such a pejorative term.

Jim

P.S.  And yet more questions: http://www.abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=204304&page=1
Ron
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36 posted 10-28-2004 11:42 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Jim, I agree those are all important questions to ask, but I also think you forgot one.

6. Where does the buck stop?
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37 posted 10-28-2004 12:20 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Ron:

Maybe there is a 6, but I see that as an application of the facts, not a material fact in and of itself.  Depending on how 1-4 and 5 shape out, 6 could be the U.N., maybe Syria for allowing the arms to cross their border with Iraq, maybe Russia for assisting in their removal, and maybe the U.S. Military (and by correlation, the Commander-in-Chief).

But if the 377 tons is really 3 tons (roughly equal to 21 Michael Moores - sans his head ... ), then I think the loss, given the circumstances of war, is a trivial one.

Jim
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38 posted 10-28-2004 02:58 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

"Kerry will not let the matter drop because he has seen that bad news from Iraq results in a rise for him in the polls therefore he will continue to paint it in the blackest  possible. He will blast the administration and even the troops over there at every opportunity for a percentage point rise. Denigrating the troops on the ground is nothing new for this man who claims to have such respect for the military. He did it 30 years ago and continues to do it today if he feels it will help his political standing. If his words, at a time we have troops on the groung fighting, make their jobs tougher and gives aid to the enemy, he does not care. I have no problem considering the man's actions those of a traitor....and all for the sake of a few votes. Is it any wonder that the polls of the Army, Navy Air Force and Marine Times give Kerry a 65-75% disapproval rating? You want to see some real voting manipulation? Just wait to see what Kerry comes up with to try to disallow the absentee votes of the military at the last minute in much the same way Gore tried it 4 years ago. The military wants little to do with this decorated hero of Viet Nam....and he knows it."

I have heard the 1971 Winter Soldier hearing testimony. I seriously don't believe he is denigrating the troops then and he is certainly not doing it now either.

All that talk of "...raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan..." was referring to a group of about 150 honorably discharged and decorated veterans who testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia in Detroit in January of 1971.

He wasn't denigrating the troops or this nation. He was doing the nation a favor. In his own words about why this was called the Winter Soldier hearing (a play on words from Thomas Paine)

Thomas did what he did because he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

No one can possibly argue Vietnam was rough. He felt we had to be "winter soldiers". He said, "We could come back to this country, we could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out."

His feelings he had thirty-three years ago are just the same types of raw emotion I feel now about Iraq. I believe there still is a "monster" here, a psychological monster that fuels young Americans minds with obsession of violence and militarization. The war in Vietnam was senseless, as is this war in Iraq, and a stark comparison is that under both Administrations our young men and women have been used.

Time and time again, I hear stories of young soldiers aged 18-25. Before I moved to Portland, you know I lived in Colorado, and Colorado is home to Fort Carson, one of the largest bases for military recruits in the nation. My friend Randy Meador joined the National Guard so he could get money for college. He tells me on and on how too many here only joined so they could get money for college or for something to build a resume so they could lead a good career in the near future. I visited there myself multiple times, same scenario.

What Kerry said thirty-three years ago took courage. Back then, what he did was quite an unpopular stand, and I find what he did remarkable.

Again, he wasn't spitting on our troops. He was speaking out against the leaders who betrayed us. LBJ, Nixon, Agnew, etc. He said, "Where where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership?" Indeed he mentioned the names of McNamara, Rostow, Bundy and Gilpatric, who were commanders. He said, "Where are they now that we, the men whom they sent off to war, have returned? These are commanders who have deserted their troops, and there is no more serious crime in the law of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded."

Bashing a few commanders doesn't mean automatically dissing the entire military. All these young troops with John Kerry were our young boys over thirty years ago, after all. Kerry was speaking for them all. He felt they, along with him, were abandoned by their Administration, by these particular commanders, by some Marine officers who retreated, contradicting the cornerstone ethic of the Marines that they "never leave even their dead"

He said in 1971 to imagine "30 years from now, our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say "Vietnam" and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory but mean instead the place where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning."

Well, it's just over 30 years later now, and this obscene memory seems to have duplicated itself, sadly to say, with a new name known as Iraq.

If anything, I actually wish Kerry would do MORE in speaking out against this war, take an anti-war stance like he did in 1971 and do now just as he did then. It saddens me a bit to see he's not exactly playing the whole anti-war card or saying in each of his stump speeches, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Iraq?"

Kerry has great admiration for our young men and women in uniform in Iraq and Afghanistan, for he understands also these young men and women in uniform are the same young men and women that are our sons and daughters of America, and as an American we should have the ability to believe in our president, believe in our government, and far more importantly, our government should believe in us and never leave us behind or abandon us.

Kerry has at least taken the courage to come out and say this war was wrong, that this administration has left millions behind, and he has made it clear if elected he'll strive to correct this mess Bush has left in Iraq and begin bringing our young men and women home six months into his term and have them all out by the end of his first term. Nowhere do I ever hear Bush talk about how he'll clean up this mess, and he doesn't seem to care when our sons and daughters will return home. He cares most of all about winning this war most know we cannot win.

As for those polls, Balladeer, disapproval ratings for Kerry were considerably higher among the military last April and May. In April 2004, I heard Bush's approval rating among the military was at 87%. Now, it has weakened a bit.

Anyway, who can blame them? I've heard on many of the grounds down there in Iraq, Fox News is the only provided news network. A network which doesn't talk about 235,000 veterans losing their health insurance under this administration. A network which won't talk aout the Bush Administration announcing a cut of $1.5 billion in military housing and medical facility funding for active duty military. A network that won't treat the over half of 691,000 Gulf War I veterans who are ill, have requested disability for "mysterious illnesses," yet have not received treatment from either the Department of Defense or the Department of Veterans Affairs as a serious major news story.

I certainly hope all the U.S military get their ballots and they return to be counted without any interference, just as I hope those 58,000 absentee ballots missing from Broward County are found and those 1,900 names and addresses of voters in the predominantly black and Democratic areas of Jacksonville that have been put on a "caging list" by the Republican Party in Florida get to vote and not be disenfranchised like they were in 2000.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton




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But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
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39 posted 10-28-2004 07:28 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Well, after Senator Kerry's attempted apology of going a little 'over the top' during that 1971 Senate hearing, I guess we'll get the same when his myriad unsubstantiated allegations blow up in his face.  Just a bit 'over the top'.
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40 posted 10-28-2004 07:38 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


Brad,

?

John
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41 posted 10-28-2004 07:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Can someone show me where any of this has been disproved? - Brad.

Sure, Brad....right here..

ABC News...

Oct. 27, 2004 — Iraqi officials may be overstating the amount of explosives reported to have disappeared from a weapons depot, documents obtained by ABC News show.

The Iraqi interim government has told the United States and international weapons inspectors that 377 tons of conventional explosives are missing from the Al-Qaqaa installation, which was supposed to be under U.S. military control.

But International Atomic Energy Agency documents obtained by ABC News and first reported on "World News Tonight with Peter Jennings" indicate the amount of missing explosives may be substantially less than the Iraqis reported.

The information on which the Iraqi Science Ministry based an Oct. 10 memo in which it reported that 377 tons of RDX explosives were missing — presumably stolen due to a lack of security — was based on "declaration" from July 15, 2002. At that time, the Iraqis said there were 141 tons of RDX explosives at the facility.

But the confidential IAEA documents obtained by ABC News show that on Jan. 14, 2003, the agency's inspectors recorded that just over three tons of RDX were stored at the facility — a considerable discrepancy from what the Iraqis reported.

The IAEA documents could mean that 138 tons of explosives were removed from the facility long before the United States launched "Operation Iraqi Freedom" in March 2003.

The missing explosives have become an issue in the presidential campaign. Sen. John Kerry has pointed to the disappearance as evidence of the Bush administration's poor handling of the war.
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42 posted 10-28-2004 10:02 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



All I have to say is, no matter what the number is, Rudy Giuliani, let me give you a hand for a job well done in keeping this controversy alive! You're certainly not helping your buddy in his re-election bid! LOL!
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/302/politics/Iraq_mom_riled_by_Giuliani_rem:.shtml

*****************************************

Iraq mom riled by Giuliani remark
By Associated Press, 10/28/2004 17:07

BEDFORD, N.H. (AP) Rudolph Giuliani stumped for President Bush in New Hampshire on Thursday, but the former New York mayor riled some residents even before arriving.

In a morning television appearance, Giuliani criticized Democrat John Kerry for blaming President Bush for the disappearance of hundreds of tons of explosives in Iraq.

"No matter how you try to blame it on the president, the actual responsibility for it really would be for the troops that were there. Did they search carefully enough? Didn't they search carefully enough?" he said on NBC's "Today" show.

That rankled Eleanor Kjellman of Henniker, an Air Force veteran whose son Kurt is an Army reservist in the Mideast.

"That was such a demoralizing, destructive statement for Rudolph Giuliani to make. Once again they (the troops) are scapegoats for the administration's failures," she said at a Democratic protest before a planned appearance by Giuliani in Bedford.

As Kjellman was speaking out, Giuliani was at a GOP event in Gilford. There, he said that in blaming Bush for the missing explosives, Kerry himself was implicitly blaming the troops.

Giuliani said the country must "continue on the offense" against terrorists and "stop them before they kill more of us."


***************************************


Rudy, keep up the good work!  

Isn't that what the GOP has been using this whole time as a smokescreen defense to this war? Patriotism? Supporting our troops? Every day since the invasion began?

Leave it to Rudy himself, someone who happened to be a keynote speaker at the Republican National Convention, to pinhole that screen and put the blame on our young men and women down there.

Shameful for him to demoralize our young men and women like that.



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
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43 posted 10-28-2004 11:01 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ah, Noah, you need to stop that selective reading. Kerry is also blaming the troops for incompetence and failure. This is nothing new for him since it's the same man who reported that the majority of soldiers in Nam were looting, murdering, raping, you name it...and that he participated in these acts with them. You feeling good about supporting the self-confessed murderer and rapist? John Kerry is no friend of the soldier...he is only a friend of John Kerry.

As far as the troops giving overwhelming support to the president, are you saying they are so stupid that they can have their minds altered by Fox news? Are you criticizing the troops, too? These are the men whose lives are on the line, the men who don't know if they'll see tomorrow every day. These men know George Bush sent them there...and yet they support him by an overwhelming majority. Why do you think that is, Noah? Is it possible that they can see things we can't...like Iraq, for example? All we see are headlines and video clips. They are there among the people. They see the reality because they are living it. Possibly, just possibly, they may see that they are making a difference, that something very worthwhile is being done and they take pride in being part of it. Who knows? People like you and I and all and all of the other quarterbacks posting here are doing it out of speculation....they are the ones who know - and they are the ones supporting George Bush or at least feel that John Kerry would be worse. It's not Fox news doing it to them, Noah....it's what they believe.
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


44 posted 10-29-2004 12:07 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Talk about selective reading. Kerry has specifically said that the troops are doing a great job. He has condemned the stategy of the Bush administration for putting too little troops in the field.

Get a grip.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


45 posted 10-29-2004 12:10 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

The number of Vietnamese who died during the war is 1 million. The number that died after is anywhere from 65,000 to 250,000 over the course of eight years.

Kerry was right. Though I admit it's not something one should brag about.
Balladeer
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46 posted 10-29-2004 12:41 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Get a grip, Brad? Such harsh words from you!   

Actually the generals in charge confirmed that Bush gave them the exact number they asked for to supposedly do the job....in which case Kerry is playing monday morning quarterback and condemning them.
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


47 posted 10-29-2004 12:48 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Yeah, I guess you're right. Everything is just hunky dory in Iraq these days.

There wasn't a plan for what's happening now.

Doesn't that bother you at least a little bit?

Balladeer
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48 posted 10-29-2004 01:47 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, Brad, it bothers me a lot. When I saw the looting after the initial assault, I cringed. I have stated before that I fault Bush for not having had better plans for what to do after the takeover and I still feel that way. The fact is, though, that it was done and that's the way it stands. It has nothing at all to do with the election. Electing Kerry won't undo anything. Yes, you could punish Bush for not having better planning by electing Kerry but then what? DO you think Kerry has a better plan? He doesn't have any plan at all. He only keeps referring to the mysterious "coalition" he will form with nations who are stating emphatically they will have nothing to do with him. He speaks about how he will hunt down our enemies and kill them - how? Where? He will not let anyone have a veto over US security but will not act without a consensus - what's that mean? He will act in accordance with the UN - who are in up to their eyeballs in cover-ups. The man doesn't even keep track of what he says from day to day. He's simply winging it with no plan whatsoever. If he's elected Iraq is still in the same situation it is in now. Can he make it better? Maybe John Edwards can file a lawsuit against the insurgents or throw his briefcase at them?

No, I'm not happy seeing what I see about Iraq but there are a couple of things to consider. First, we only see the worst, thanks to our wonderful media. Time and time again people have come back from Iraq speaking about all the positives that are happening there. You don't see those positives on the evening news. Second, there was a news documentary a few weeks ago shot in Iraq dwelling on, of course, the negative side of life there. They interviewed one Iraqui who spoke of how people were afraid, how it was not safe to go outside, etc etc. When asked by the reporter if he wished the war had not happened and Hussein were still in power, he answered emphatically "NO!" He would take it the way it is right now. So there you have it...vote for who you feel will handle the current situation best.

Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


49 posted 10-29-2004 01:58 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Brad,


“The number of Vietnamese who died during the war is 1 million. The number that died after is anywhere from 65,000 to 250,000 over the course of eight years.

Kerry was right. Though I admit it's not something one should brag about”


So you’re saying Kerry was right; that the Vietnamese
were “murdered” by the United States?

John

PS As an aside, in no year during the Vietnam War,
      did American casualties exceed those of South Vietnam’s
      armed forces, and in the year after American withdrawal
      South Vietnam’s armed forces suffered more killed in action
      than the United States did during the entire war.
 
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