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Passions in Poetry

Dave, (Proper Words)

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Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


0 posted 10-16-2004 07:36 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

"Dave,

Correct me if I’m wrong.

I believe if John Kerry is elected
President of the United States,
the United States will lose or will have
lost in Iraq.  My reasoning is that
John Kerry has insinuated, if not stated
outright, that going to war with Iraq was a mistake.
Given that, if  John Kerry is elected he will
have to ask himself, (or others loudly will),
what John Kerry asked a congressional
committee in 1971:

“How do you ask a man
to be the last man
to die for a mistake?”

There is a beautiful line from a poem
by Wallace Stevens:

How gladly
with proper words
the soldier dies if he must
or lives
on the bread
of faithful speech.


There is no way the soldiers and marines
would not be effected.  In this respect,
(finally for critics), Iraq would be
another Vietnam;
and the country they were in
and the country that sent them
would not be worth dying for.

And they shouldn’t be expected to.

Let me know what you think."

Denise
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1 posted 10-17-2004 01:27 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

There's much to be said for proper words.

I hope we've learned something from Vietnam.

Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush afire with God, but only he who sees takes off his shoes.
Elizabeth Barrett Browning

serenity blaze
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2 posted 10-17-2004 02:30 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) John Kerry objected to the MANNER in which we went to war with Iraq.

Denise
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3 posted 10-17-2004 02:46 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

And he also said it's "the wrong war, at the wrong time, in the wrong place", and he called it a "mistake", Karen, the same words that he used about Vietnam. He spoke to more than just the manner.  
serenity blaze
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4 posted 10-17-2004 03:03 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

And you are dismissing the REST of what he said as well.

I have no intention of placing myself in the defense of either of these men's beliefs. Nor do I want my children there.

I believe that we did not act responsibly engaging in this war.

There.

I said it.

So shoot me.

And somebody might. (There are crackheads in my windows at five a.m.)

I think we need our alliances.

In my area, it's called a "neighborhood watch".

Around the world? I thought it was called the U.N.

Ron
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5 posted 10-17-2004 08:35 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I hope we've learned something from Vietnam.

Clearly, not enough.
Denise
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6 posted 10-17-2004 06:18 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Karen, I personally don't trust the U.N. anymore than I trust a crackhead. I think, each in their own way, are very dangerous. I mean, Khadafi on the Human Rights Commission? YIKES! What's that about?

I think we need a new Neighborhood Watch group.
Midnitesun
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7 posted 10-17-2004 07:05 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I think most of our world neighbors are mostly worried about US.
There are no PROPER words I can think of to describe what is happening today in Iraq. Not to mention Afghanistan, Pakistan, China, Russia, and the whole Middle East. Then of course, there is Iran. Hmmmm. Wondering what day that invasion is scheduled for.
serenity blaze
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8 posted 10-17-2004 08:01 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"I think we need a new Neighborhood Watch group."

Gee, I wonder who would be in charge of THAT?

sorry for the sarcasm, Denise.

I hope you know I enjoy our little head butting sessions, and now and then we hit an impasse, and we just have to agree to disagree.

Now if we could just convince the world of that.

On a personal note, I think the entire neighborhood would feel immensely safer if I did not feel compelled to pick up that dreaded .357. I'm kinda twitchy yanno.

And I believe this current administration is as well.



PEACE
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


9 posted 10-17-2004 08:06 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Midnitesun

“I think most of our world neighbors are mostly worried about US.”

What are they afraid the United States will do
and what consequences do they expect?

“There are no PROPER words I can think of to describe what is happening today in Iraq.”

Would you use the same words as could have been used about Iraq under Saddam
and his sons?

“Not to mention Afghanistan, Pakistan…, and the whole Middle East”

Where there are growing and virulent Islamic fundamentalist movements which
preach and act with violence as the way of accomplishing a world of Islam, (which literally translates as “submission”), acceptable to their god; a god which rewards
fighters preferentially in a paradise filled with good things to eat and drink
and virgins.

“Then of course, there is Iran. Hmmmm.”

Which. as elsewhere in the Middle East, harbors violent fundamentalist movements
intent on conquest by any means for the sake of their god and for reward in paradise
after.  Additionally, Iran is committed to the destruction of Israel, (Israel a country which receives one third of all foreign aid distributed by the United States though it has less than one percent of the world’s population).  Israel, (and the United States which is so far
still committed to Israel’s existence),  is therefore directly concerned about Iran’s nuclear
weapons program since Iran already has and is actively pursuing improvements
on it’s military missiles, (which are already capable of reaching Jerusalem).  Israel
itself currently cannot, as it did in Iraq, strike to destroy facilities necessary to that program without at least United State’s logistical support; so given Iran’s expressed
intent and it’s known efforts to accomplish that intent the time is coming . . .
Then of course, we could simply stand aside, and let Iran and the rest of those
who are likewise committed finish the job for Hitler.

Russia?  Russia is still mourning it’s children.  

China?  I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

John

    
Midnitesun
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10 posted 10-17-2004 08:08 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I'm stayin outta the serene one's neighborhood
'cept via cyber connections
LOL, my own back yard is relatively calm these days, though not without an occasional drug bust or street fight.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


11 posted 10-17-2004 08:17 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Midnitesun,

Which translates into they can do whatever they want to do
to whomever, so long as it doesn’t disturb our quiet time,
which by the way was the majority American opinion
before December 7, 1941.

John
Midnitesun
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12 posted 10-17-2004 08:17 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Don't ever underestimate the sabras of Israel, whom I lived with for a year and will never second guess. Saddam is an awful excuse for a human being, I've never said anything to suggest otherwise.
Human rights abuses are documented daily around the globe, including China.  There are NO proper words for any of man(un)kind's inhumanities, and I've never suggested that physical abuse or torture is an acceptable behavior...from anyone, any country.
I do not believe the world was made safer by the actions our government took, and I hope we can all survive this escalation of international violence.


quote:
Correct me if I’m wrong.

I believe if John Kerry is elected
President of the United States,
the United States will lose or will have
lost in Iraq.  

you hereby stand
corrected

serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


13 posted 10-17-2004 08:31 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

John, I believe you have brought up an interesting point.

Perhaps a thread regarding the limits of power vs. responsibility might be in order.

(and I know it has been discussed before, so anyone knowing the whereabouts of that particular thread(s) can help me out, perhaps?)

Many believe the United States waited too long to halt the rise of Adolph Hitler.

I'd be interested in the opinions of all regarding such.



and?

PEACE PEACE PEACE

(what do I gotta do? Beat it into ya?)

*couldn't resist*

I like to tease a bit, John. No offense intended.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


14 posted 10-17-2004 08:34 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Midnitesun,


“I do not believe the world was made safer by the actions our government took, and I hope we can all survive this escalation of international violence.”

September 11, was planned long before Bush took office.  Do you believe that was
the only plan, and if not that other plans were not adversely effected by United States actions since September 11?.  Do you believe that Libya gave up its nuclear weapons
program as a spontaneous act or love and good will wholly uninfluenced by its
perception of United States actions?   Do you believe that the people, (outside
of the former regimes) of Afghanistan and Iraq regret United States actions and long for
the old days?   It is estimated that some quarter million illegal immigrants enter
the United States every year.  Do you believe that a country with such porous
borders can afford not to take action outside those borders against those committed
to its harm?  

Remember September 11, was 19 committed men armed  with plane tickets,
box cutters, and a religion that rewards those who die killing in its name.

John
Midnitesun
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15 posted 10-17-2004 09:02 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

No. To assume 9/11 was an isolated event on anyone's agenda would be naive. And to assume the Afghani people would want to return to the past is equally ridiculous. That doesn't mean they feel safer or ARE safer because of what this country did, or didn't do.
Out of curiosity, do you ever read the World News Network? the media from other countries? It's an eye opener to read what the rest of the world is thinking, though it's only part of what prompts me to repeat;
the world IS NOT safer today than it was before the US went into Iraq. That is not to suggest the world leaders should sit on their collective asses and do nothing.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


16 posted 10-17-2004 09:34 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
September 11, was planned long before Bush took office.


So. There were many at that time arguing that the number one thread to security was Al Quaida and bin Laden. Bush, perhaps understandably, downplayed these arguments. Nevertheless, his knee-jerk anti-Clintonism serious hindered are intelligences services at that time. (See the Fallows essay in this month's Atlantic)

quote:
Do you believe that was
the only plan, and if not that other plans were not adversely effected by United States actions since September 11?.


Of course, they were. You see plans like that in Iraq everyday.

quote:
Do you believe that Libya gave up its nuclear weapons
program as a spontaneous act or love and good will wholly uninfluenced by its
perception of United States actions?


That took about nine months of concerned, negotiation as I recall.

quote:
Do you believe that the people, (outside
of the former regimes) of Afghanistan and Iraq regret United States actions and long for the old days?


Uh, yeah, most do. Take a look at some world opinion polls.

quote:
It is estimated that some quarter million illegal immigrants enter
the United States every year.  Do you believe that a country with such porous
borders can afford not to take action outside those borders against those committed
to its harm?


And there it is, the slide. We're so weak that we can't even protect our own borders so that we have to go to war with other countries?

Is that really the argument you want to make?

I know, I know, the best defense is a good offense babble. But it helps if you actually attack the team that's attacking you.
    
Now what was that guy's name who ran for a ninety-eight yards after an interception and almost touchdown in the wrong direction?

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


17 posted 10-17-2004 09:42 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Midnitesun,

“That doesn't mean they feel safer or ARE safer because of what this country did, or didn't do.”

No one can control if people “feel” safer, (there are people who didn’t and don’t
feel safe about swimming in Lake Michigan after the release of the movie “Jaws”).
As to “are”, again is it reasonable to believe that terrorist attack plans have not
been at least hindered by what this country did?

”Out of curiosity, do you ever read the World News Network? the media from other countries? It's an eye opener to read what the rest of the world is thinking,”

Yes, and I know for example that the world at large is in disagreement with
our support of the existence of the state of Israel, indeed much of Middle Eastern
enmity is directly related to that disagreement.  Our country would be far more
popular in the world if we sent ovens to the Arabs instead of arms to the Israelis.

“That is not to suggest the world leaders should sit on their collective
asses and do nothing.”

Which is pretty much what they did.  It was primarily United States with
Britain’s help that enforced any sanctions against Iraq, (sanctions which
opponents to them estimate cost some five hundred thousand Iraqi lives,
while Saddam and his sons and kind partied and bought friends in
the UN and around the world, including France and Russia, with profits
skimmed off the oil for food program).

“the world IS NOT safer today than it was before the US went into Iraq.”

Everyone knows Saddam wanted and planned to go down in history as
a great hero, a Saladin defending the faith in the world against unbelievers,
(remember in the war before he fired missiles on Israel in an
attempt to inflame and enlist the Moslem world on his side).
It is known he was actively engaged in seeking the end of sanctions
so that he could again pursue his ambitions more aggressively
with the talent he already had on the payroll in his country.
It wouldn’t have taken much to improve on 19 guys with box
cutters.  

John

P.S.

quote:

Correct me if I’m wrong.

I believe if John Kerry is elected
President of the United States,
the United States will lose or will have
lost in Iraq.  


you hereby stand
corrected

How?

Kerry said the war is a mistake.  In 1971,
he asked:  “How can you ask a man to
be the last man to die for a mistake?”.
If he is elected he will be asked that question
and his only choices will be to act contrary
to that question, which I can’t imagine him doing,
(please explain how he would explain it), or
he would have to act as would bring troops out
as quickly as possible regardless of the consequences
in Iraq.
Midnitesun
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18 posted 10-17-2004 10:04 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

"Yes, and I know for example that the world at large is in disagreement with
our support of the existence of the state of Israel, indeed much of Middle Eastern
enmity is directly related to that disagreement.  Our country would be far more
popular in the world if we sent ovens to the Arabs instead of arms to the Israelis."
I don't buy that for one second, though I do believe many feel the Israeli government goes too far against the Palestinians, I do NOT believe most people feel the state of Israel should not exist. As for the ovens comment? that's really uncalled for and vulgar in my opinion.
And this is not a popularity contest.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


19 posted 10-17-2004 10:06 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Brad,


“So. There were many at that time arguing that the number one thread to security was Al Quaida and bin Laden. Bush, perhaps understandably, downplayed these arguments. Nevertheless, his knee-jerk anti-Clintonism serious hindered are intelligences services at that time. (See the Fallows essay in this month's Atlantic)”

Bush had been in office less than 8 months by 9/11.
Intelligence services were severely limited by legislation that were that the consequence
of the Church and similar congressional  committees long before Bush arrived
on the scene.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you believe that Libya gave up its nuclear weapons
program as a spontaneous act or love and good will wholly uninfluenced by its
perception of United States actions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“That took about nine months of concerned, negotiation as I recall.”

And you think its perception of United States actions have no
effect leading to the success of those negotiations?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you believe that the people, (outside
of the former regimes) of Afghanistan and Iraq regret United States actions and long for the old days?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Uh, yeah, most do. Take a look at some world opinion polls.”

How about in Iraq and Afghanistan?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is estimated that some quarter million illegal immigrants enter
the United States every year.  Do you believe that a country with such porous
borders can afford not to take action outside those borders against those committed
to its harm?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“And there it is, the slide. We're so weak that we can't even protect our own borders so that we have to go to war with other countries?

Is that really the argument you want to make?

I know, I know, the best defense is a good offense babble. But it helps if you actually attack the team that's attacking you.”

My point is the United States has decided it will not wait to be attacked
before it acts, and it can not wait until the attack can occur from a point
within its own borders because by then it’s likely too late to stop it.
The United States is not weak, but is, by it’s very nature as a free society
and democracy, vulnerable.  To accomplish security through border
protection and other such internal measures would fundamentally change
the nature of the nation, ( to sometime like the Soviet Union under Stalin).
    
John
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


20 posted 10-17-2004 10:12 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Midnitesun,

Have no illusions, outside of the United States, Israel and Jews
have few friends.  Much of the Middle East would dance in the
streets at their extermination, and there would be many, though
quieter, celebrations in the rest of the world as well.

John
Midnitesun
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21 posted 10-17-2004 10:24 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I'm not talking from illusions, but from personal experiences with hundreds of others around the world who have lived and worked in the Middle East. You might be surprised at how many countries are still represented within the kibbutz system. I have friends in no less than ten countries who lived in Israel. Only a half dozen were of Jewish heritage. I worked side-by-side with Arabs and Jews, as well as Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, agnostics and atheists. I think your perception of what the rest of the world thinks is extremely myopic and distorted. At the very least, you make it sound as if you believe you can speak for the majority of the world outside of the US. Tsk tsk.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


22 posted 10-17-2004 10:40 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Midnitesun,

Israel is a Jewish state.  I believe every Jew, regardless of where he lives,
is, under Israeli law,  a citizen.  Israel vehemently opposes the Palestinian
“right of return” because that would threaten the very nature of Israel
as a Jewish state.   Aversion if not outright enmity toward Jews is
preached in the Koran, ( Mohammed had Jews killed).  Listen to the
Arab media.  I myself had experience with Europeans from countries
where Jews were at best tolerated and often persecuted for
millenniums; the attitude is alive.

John
Ron
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23 posted 10-17-2004 10:47 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I believe if John Kerry is elected President of the United States, the United States will lose or will have lost in Iraq.

You're trying to connect two completely unrelated events, John. Doesn't matter if Kerry is elected or not. The war in Iraq was lost before ever it began, at least insofar as loss is defined by the absence of winning. There was never anything there to win.

quote:
My point is the United States has decided it will not wait to be attacked before it acts, and it can not wait until the attack can occur from a point within its own borders because by then it’s likely too late to stop it.

By which logic, of course, any nation or group of nations in the world is perfectly justified to preemptively attack America. It's a bit scary to realize WE are the most dangerous and imminent threat any nation has ever had to face.

quote:
Much of the Middle East would dance in the streets at their extermination, and there would be many, though quieter, celebrations in the rest of the world as well.

That's about the third comment you've made, John, that has a decidingly anti-Semitic taste to it. Please tell us you're not a bigot?
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


24 posted 10-17-2004 10:54 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
My point is the United States has decided it will not wait to be attacked
before it acts, and it can not wait until the attack can occur from a point
within its own borders because by then it’s likely too late to stop it.
The United States is not weak, but is, by it’s very nature as a free society
and democracy, vulnerable.  To accomplish security through border
protection and other such internal measures would fundamentally change
the nature of the nation, ( to sometime like the Soviet Union under Stalin).


But that is not a justification to go to war with the wrong country. If the protection of the country is what you're arguing, then the Iraq war was a mistake. Getting rid of Hussein was and still is a good idea, but it did absolutely zilch for the protection of America.

Except, perhaps, make it worse.

 
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