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Where is the line drawn?
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Where is the line drawn? |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap 
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I arrived for class yesterday to an unusual sight. The field in front of the Student's Center, usually occupied only by students eating lunch or simply passing the time between classes, was peppered with hundreds of 8x11" signs staked into the grass. On each sign was the name, rank, hometown, and "date of death" of a US or allied soldier. I realize this is supposed to be some sort of protest of the war, but I was appalled. The manner in which these brave men and women were represented in this display was cold and disrespectful - they may as well have piled bodybags on the lawn for shock effect, it would have been no less inappropriate. I was shocked all right, but not in the way the organizers intended - who is to say that these people did not die fighting for what they believed in? But there they were, staked into the grass, like so many scarecrows to frighten the children. Colorless, meaningless numbers on a page. Argue politics if you will. Protest the war, and mourn the dead - but have some decency and do not mix the two. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Please know I admire you as I say, quoting first: "Argue politics if you will. Protest the war, and mourn the dead - but have some decency and do not mix the two." There's more than two facets and if those two weren't mixed already I'd have no protest. Once upon a time I had a very hard time getting into a woman's clinic, as I had to sneak through protesters. I sat there, watching them from the window once I was safely inside, and I was indeed asked what I thought about it... My answer was "They have as much right to be there as I do to be HERE." Freedom's confusing sometimes but well worth it. and no, not always tasteful. but always worth it. |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
Believe me, I'm not disputing anyone's right to protest anything. I am merely commenting on the utter disrespect of turning these fallen soldiers into some faceless symbol for their little crusade. |
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Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I respect and sympathize with your thoughts and feelings and opinion here, I really do. While one person may find a demonstration toned at an appropriate way, it could seem offensive to someone else. I think that is applicable to most forms of demonstration. However, I have to say, because I am a firm believer in the Noam Chomsky philosophy that freedom of speech means EVERYONE has the right to freedom of speech, that they should just have the right to demonstrate what they want to. Noam believes even the most outrageous, or crazy citizens of the world, whose opinions are unthinkable or inconceivable, have the right to say what they want. With that said, if you feel offended by this, or some of your peers do likewise, you have every right to protest. Don't be silent, let them know your concern. You have the right to make a counter response! Just be respectful and reasonable when you do so. Personally, judging by the description of this demonstration, I wouldn't be offended. I don't think this is in any way demoralizing our young men and women in uniform, and is rather doing the opposite. It is trying to strike an aesthetic response to everyone, "...never again!". Never again should our young men and women have to experience the horrors of sensless wars like these and the numbers won't keep adding up in loss. I believe you CAN do both, in protesting the war and mourning the dead. War hurts. War scars. War kills. And I don't believe anyone should be hurt, scarred, or killed this way. I don't believe in war, which terrorizes whole communities like that. But, of course, that's just another opinion. If many more agree with you and are offended by this, then perhaps you can convince the organizers to have their demonstration elsewhere or consider an alternative way of symbolizing the losses. Otherwise, I say just be respectful and let them be as long as it needs to take. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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inot2B Member Elite
since 2000-09-18
Posts 2205Arkansas |
If the college allowed them to do this then they have the right. Just as you have the right to write a letter to the Dean or the school paper to say you didn't like the display. Personally, I feel it was in poor taste. I do not think every group has a freedom for anything they wish to do. If I saw a group burning our "American Flag" I'd make such a scene that I'd proably be arrested. |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
quote: Do many of the soldiers fighting and dying over there consider it a "senseless" war, do you think? Do you think they wake up every day and say, "Gee, we're fighting for nothing important over here?" Not attacking you personally, but as you said, wars kill, wars scar - not just the "senseless" ones - and whether or not this war counts as senseless is a topic of great debate which I don't personally want to get into. I just want a little respect shown for the men and women who fought and died for this country. They are not numbers. They are not symbols. They are not rallying points for your little Dems vs Reps propaganda war. Whoever set up this protest didn't even have the courage or decency to attend their own protest - they just stuck the things in the grass and left it at that. How convenient, and how very cowardly. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Even not taking my view into account, though that view would be simply shaking my head at those who fully enjoy the rights and priviledges others paid for, there is a distinct difference between what those protestors did, and what Noah's Portland group did. The Portland protest was done in the light, where all could see and hear. They showed bravery, and physically stood up and marched for their beliefs. This other group came in the dark of night, cloaked in shadows, and set up their protest so they would not be seen, would not be identified, would not be called down, would not have their views challenged. Bravery versus cowardice. As an aside, I would not be surprised at all if the group behind that paper cemetary had as their impetus the 'Bush will draft you' hoax, reinforced by the DNC and Senator Kerry. Their exploitation of the war dead was not merely a protest against war, but also a protest against the supposed draft. I wonder if they'll ever have the courage to march in the light, or, perhaps, they'll stage another paper cemetary of Iraqi names, towns, and dates of death as they are catalogued from the mass graves. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Well, you see Skyfyre, just now you have added a dimension to your argument in which I agree with. In your original response, you didn't mention the "cowardice" aspect to the argument, the "didn't even have the courage or decency to attend their own protest" prism to it. But now that you've said that, yes, that was a cowardly form of protest. A true protest should be a formal statement, a proclaimed gesture that reverberates to the public front, center and live. I agree that our soldiers are no numbers, symbols, objects. No human being should be treated like a trivial number or be treated like digits in black math demonstration. If you had mentioned how it was cowardice at first, I would have agreed with you. I do agree if they really feel strongly about what they believe, they should reveal themselves publicly and speak out. Now, I do believe this war is senseless and immoral, but I agree also it is a great debate and this is a different argument. I honestly don't know what to think about the draft rumor. I believe there is way too much fearmongering in our society, and in result so many young people now feel Bush or Kerry is capable of restoring the draft. Having learned of House Resolution 163 being crushed in defeat, I'm optimistic this won't be the case whatsoever, and I think theBlatantTruth.org overreacted or just scaremongered. Having to do with that demonstration, I'm not sure how related or unrelated that is. Thanks for opening up this discussion!  Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
Yeah, sorry I didn't mention that at first, but it took me a good two days to calm down enough to post anything coherent about this. I was literally that ticked off. No protesters, no name of the group sponsoring the protest on the signs, nothing. I have no problem with someone who stands up for what they believe in, whether or not I concur with that belief. However, this was no such animal - I feel that the departed in question were exploited in the worst possible way to further some group's agenda. Oh, did I forget to mention they were doing voter registration on campus that same day? If I were a family member of someone in that "cemetary," I think I would sue. |
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Kellie_Cantrell Senior Member
since 2002-05-22
Posts 1667New York |
I think that it is like a poem or fine art, it is all in (an individuals) interpretaion of it. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
During the Revolutionary War, a third of Americans were in favor of independence, a third just as vehemently opposed with the remainder neutral, ( material and military aid from France was crucial to American independence becoming a reality). Were it not for the fall of Atlanta shortly before elections, Abraham Lincoln would likely have been voted out of office and replaced by the head of a party whose platform contained the intention to seek an end of the Civil War without reuniting the country or ending slavery. At some discomfort level, let alone point of personal risk, many if not most Americans would not fight for the people of New York City much less those of a foreign country, (including England or Israel). The Japanese in World War II, the Communists in both Korea and Vietnam all relied on a lack of American home resolve in the face of mounting casualties as the way of winning their objectives against superior American material wealth and military power. Remember Lebanon. Remember Somalia. The Islamic fundamentalists and Saddam Hussein’s kind are acting on the same confidence. Saddam Hussein and his kind murdered hundreds of thousands, men, women and children. Expertise in rape and torture were attractive skills for those seeking a career in their government. But we knew all that for years and did nothing that hindered much less stopped it. It was only after 9/11 and after all the major world intelligence organizations, (including that of France, Germany, and Russia), were convinced that Saddam’s regime still had weapons of mass destruction, ( and were seeking more), and suspected , (in at least Russia’s case publicly acknowledged, by Putin), plans to attack the United States directly or indirectly at home and/ or abroad that the United States with allies finally struck to end it. We have not found those weapons in significant quantities hence there was no threat to the people of the United States hence the war was in hindsight a mistake. Now Americans are being asked to fight and die for the chance for freedom and democracy for a people we were quite indifferent to being massacred before. American personal lives matter, no one else’s does, at least not at the expense of physical risk of American personal life and limb. Life can’t be a party if you’re dead. That beneath all appearances is the reality of the mentality. No one is claiming the war in Iraq is immoral, (as they did with Vietnam), only wrong as a mistake because it costs American money and lives with the benefit primarily going to those for whom Americans really didn’t and do not care. Let others argue the morality of such an attitude. As to the fallen being used, who cares, they’re dead; they don’t matter either. Grin and bear it. John |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I don't understand why outside a special institution, such as a school, people's ideals for decent learning enviroment fall down so many grades, that now they think it appropriate to do such things, that never a teacher or student should do in a school. Why is it different? In any right world, it is incorrect in a school,; teachers shall not have licence to use horror and shock. And yet people that know nothing about teaching at all and often just wish to make contraversy, have the "licence" to use the worst methods of expression out and abroad. Isn't the world a learning enviroment too? We say our teachers should use good manners for teaching and we pursue a good learning enviroment in a school, why don't we say the same about demonstrators and politicians, and people more generally in the press and throngs, that they observe the better manners for learning and for a decent learning enviroment, or they should not have the "licence" to demonstrate. People pursue learning and light in school; they should carry and keep that more outside of school too. Learning is light, not spite. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Actually Linda, I am more sympathetic than my initial reply might imply. I used to work for the State, and my office was located directly across from City Hall. So I do understand your dismay, as I have seen some distasteful sights as well. The problem is though, as protests go, the more distasteful, the more publicity, which is, of course, their aim. Alas, it goes with the territory I believe.  |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Fair aims do not justify foul games. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
"Fair aims do not justify foul games." Sometimes, yes they do. Hitler was a monster who got sexual gratification by having women urinate and defecate on his head as they stood over him; and yet this man was allowed to lead a people that had produced Beethoven and Goethe into committing against themselves and the world one of the great horrors of history. If someone had taken a shotgun to him in 1933 who can argue it not justified? John |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Sad. Whoever put them there, for whatever reason, should have the intestinal fortitude to own up to it and stand by what they believe. But if no one ever admitted to the deed, how can you be so sure of the motive or intent, or assign the deed to any particular group? It was a cowardly hit-and-run act. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Logically, no. It would be unjustifable to murder Hitler. Given the argument, the premises undermine the conclusion. Doesn't mean I wouldn't give it a shot though. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
By the way, I'd never read anything like that about Hitler's sexual practices. Where did you get that? Honestly, it sounds suspiciously like the same arguments made against homosexuals on hate sites. And I have heard the argument that Hitler was gay. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Brad, “By the way, I'd never read anything like that about Hitler's sexual practices. Where did you get that? Honestly, it sounds suspiciously like the same arguments made against homosexuals on hate sites.” It comes from a note on page 249 of Ernest Becker’s “The Denial of Death” where he quotes and summarizes from “Adolf Hitler’s Guilt Feelings,” Journal of Interdisciplinary History, 1971, 1, No. 2: 229-249, by someone he familiarly refers to by his last name; “Waite”. He also notes from the same reference that each of Hitler’s mistresses did or tried to commit suicide. John |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Actually Brad, I'll have to find the source, but I had heard that about Hitler. I'll see what I can do... |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
No man is evil himself. No man is evil because he is alive or because he is he. Therefore, no man should be treated as if he is the evil itself and be slain. Evil deserves to be killed. Evil influences, evil thoughts, evil weapons deserve to be killed. Not men. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Evil thoughts? Ess, excuse me, but how do you (1)identify which thoughts are evil? (2)kill them? As for the signs, I'll say it again, I think they were offensive, but probably not illegal unless the school prohibits such. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Essorant, “No man is evil himself. No man is evil because he is alive or because he is he. Therefore, no man should be treated as if he is the evil itself and be slain. Evil deserves to be killed. Evil influences, evil thoughts, evil weapons deserve to be killed. Not men.” Tell that to the parents of a child who was raped tortured, dismembered and then murdered. Some men can and do consciously and deliberately choose evil; and there are women who love them. John |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"Evil thoughts? Ess, excuse me, but how do you (1)identify which thoughts are evil? (2)kill them?" 1. A Destructive thought is evil. 2. You don't even need to know where evil thoughts are. As long as you think good thoughts, and share them, they shine thro evil thoughts like light thro dark. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I would, John, and more importantly, I support that the laws that already do. The problem with vengeance is it's as often misdirected as not. You might reconsider your stance if those parents, in their overwhelming grief and anger, had any reason to think YOU were responsible for their loss. Emotion, though real and compelling, is a poor foundation for justice. quote: I don't believe that for a moment. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Really, Essorant? So, by extension, you would also have to believe that chemo-therapy and radiation, both attempts to destroy rampant cancer cells, is evil? Indeed, by your definition, the destruction of destructive thought becomes a bit of a paradox, don't you think? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Huan Yi I believe a man still deserves his life, even if he deserves nothing else. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Ron, quote: Tell that to the parents of a child who was raped tortured, dismembered and then murdered. ”I would, John, and more importantly, I support that the laws that already do. The problem with vengeance is it's as often misdirected as not. You might reconsider your stance if those parents, in their overwhelming grief and anger, had any reason to think YOU were responsible for their loss. Emotion, though real and compelling, is a poor foundation for justice." Keep in the context of the statement that brought the response: “No man is evil himself. No man is evil because he is alive or because he is he. Therefore, no man should be treated as if he is the evil itself and be slain. Evil deserves to be killed. Evil influences, evil thoughts, evil weapons deserve to be killed. Not men.” quote: Some men can and do consciously and deliberately choose evil; “I don't believe that for a moment.” Your explanation? John |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Essorant, “I believe a man still deserves his life, even if he deserves nothing else.” Even Hitler? Why? John |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Really, Essorant? So, by extension, you would also have to believe that chemo-therapy and radiation, both attempts to destroy rampant cancer cells, is evil? Indeed, by your definition, the destruction of destructive thought becomes a bit of a paradox, don't you think? Yes, Perhaps all thoughts are a bit destructive. But they are still good if they help save someone. [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-18-2004 04:37 AM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Huan Yi Yes; Everyone always at least deserve his/her life. |
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ice Member Elite
since 2003-05-17
Posts 3404Pennsylvania |
Skyfyre I have been watching this post for several days now....you have opened up a very interesting topic... In my opinion the tactics you say you have witnessed seemed to have worked as the perpetrators had planned....They outraged you, (even if in a different way than they had intended) and that, I believe was the aim and goal of those who placed the paper tombstones. The world is not ready to listen to preachers of peace, even many of those who say they follow the tenants of the prince of peace, as you remember he was hung for preaching the truth, and so unusual tactics must be used to gain attention... Being of the "flower child" generation I have brought forth a history of conflict protest stronger than many that might read this thread...Do you know about the Catholic priests in the Viet Nam war era (the Berrigans, Philip and Daniel) who broke into draft board, and military offices, and poured blood on draft records? That also was appalling to many people, but they got recognition by the press, who even today will not cover a peaceful demonstration unless some kind of blood flows, they especially love violence and will attend a rally in a heartbeat if a fight breaks out. "who is to say that these people did not die fighting for what they believed in?" Nobody is trying to say that, unless there were other signs stating that that you don't mention here... My personal feelings are that the lawn should have been littered with many thousands more (paper notes) with the names of all the Iraqi civilians that have been caught in the crossfire...ok let me restate- hundreds of thousands of paper notes including the names of Iraqi citizens murdered by Saddam.... "But there they were, staked into the grass, like so many scarecrows to frighten the children" and frighten the "children" is exactly what they were put there for... But...they are not.. "Colorless, meaningless numbers on a page." The names are brought forward in total respect, as a sign of warning....those soldiers deserve this remembrance, this dedication....Their fellows left behind must remember them....they are placed as a warning of what happens when war is chosen quickly, perpetrated by distortions and with little thought....they are honorable martyrs who swore to due their duty,this is the least that can be done for them now. "Argue politics if you will. Protest the war, and mourn the dead - but have some decency and do not mix the two." Those "two" Protest the war, and mourn the dead - are what those placards are all about in my opinion, they need be mixed to expose the horrors....people cannot continue to carry on normal lives in a time of war....the war press being servants of government now makes the placing of those cruel headlines on the lawn all the more important. I am not trying to downplay your feelings about this matter, not in the least bit...your feelings are your own and they hurt no one...In actuality I embrace them in a patriotic way. You speak your opinions in an intellectual way, and by reading your post here it proves that you are able to articulate them in a respectful way.... --------------ice ><> |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Ron: quote: Ron, I was wondering if you thought the recorded history in the Bible (including the saying of the prophets of the Jews, and the apostles of the Christian faith) might present a case that ALL men deliberately choose what is evil, at least part of the time? I find that plausible, knowing my own heart. I guess I'm not (as Francis Schaeffer liked to say) "romantic" about the fallen nature of humanity, but neither were the fathers of our faith. Stephen. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Stephen, I think it's important when dealing with others to separate choice from consequence. If a man does something that is "evil" (whatever that means), I think it is perfectly acceptable to stop him from doing it again. I think it is even acceptable to punish said man to deter others from similar actions. We can, and sadly we often should, change a man's actions. We cannot, however, have any effect whatsoever on a man's intent. Once you determine that a man is choosing evil for the sake of evil, the only possible choice is to destroy him. You cannot thwart gravity and you can't change free will. More pragmatically, I don't believe in evil men for much the same reason I don't believe in faeries or leprechauns. Outside of literature, I've never seen one. Every man I know, and every man I've studied through their own writings (and that most certainly includes Hitler), always justifies their evil as necessary for a perceived greater good. They are confused. Some, I'll readily admit, are so confused they will forever remain beyond human redemption. Unless we're willing to examine their confusion, however, to reasonably explore their justifications, we really can't know which ones can or cannot be redeemed. In my opinion, when we label someone as evil so that we can more comfortably kill them, we are doing exactly what we are punishing -- justifying our own evil as necessary for a perceived greater good. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Ron, The question was whether a man could "deliberately or consciously choose what is evil". Some questions for you: Does self deception justify the choice? Or can it be (at least in some cases) an elaborate way to attempt and hide the evil deed? Even Nietzsche described what a daunting task it is to overcome our inward moral leanings in order to do something "beyond good and evil". He attributed it to "greatness" for that very reason. Does one believing that it is possible for humans to do deliberately rotten things, mean that that same person is obligated to think that the best thing to do is simply and always to kill the transgressors? You seem to link these two. Is labeling a man as "evil", and believing some of his actions to be the deliberate choice of an evil deed, the very same thing? You seem to link these two. Labeling a man as "utterly evil" seems to be more God's thing, if it has to come to that, than our thing. Judging deeds and certain choices as evil seems to be very much part of our thing. Though it requires a consciousness of our own tendencies toward evil or wrongdoing, and a great dose of love and mercy, to handle such a task. And if you say those things are lacking in a big way, I'll agree. Stephen. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: It doesn't justify, Stephen, it explains. And it is seldom all that elaborate, though it is equally seldom insincere. Read any of the political debates around here, or most of the religious ones, and it becomes increasingly obvious man is capable of talking himself into just about anything he wants to believe. Of course, the most common evils aren't even consciously questioned, let alone justified. Someone hurt me, so I hurt someone (and not always the same someone) back. You shouldn't, however, assume I'm talking only about self-deception. The most egregious acts throughout history, I think, are the result not just of bad choices but of limited choices. From the crucifixion of Christ to the bombing of Hiroshima, the culminating act of evil is but the final domino in a long series of dominos. Theologically, Stephen, I think the road to Hell is paved with good intentions because we ALL have good intentions. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
But Ron, Either we have an unjust God, or hell (or the cross between us and hell) becomes the revelation that our intentions weren't so good after all. Wasn't there a prophet who said that the human heart was "decietful above all things and desperately wicked"? And no, I think the players involved with Calvary had ample opportunity to avoid their involvement sin in the crucifixion. Even Pontius Pilate had a wife who was warned with a very vivid dream. He himself was shaken to the core, from what he saw of that man in his interviews. He had to jump some pretty high divine hurdles to accomplish that misdeed, and burn some undeniable signs. If dominos are the analogy, someone had to actually insert that next to the last domino by their own hand, having been told that the fall would be great. Stephen. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Neither omnipotence nor hindsight changes the intent, Stephen. Besides, it isn't really about heaven or hell, both of which are beyond current reach. It's about human nature and trying to understand why people do as they do. As to Pontius Pilate, in knowing me you should well know I wasn't suggesting a lack of volition or choice. The penultimate domino was indeed placed by his own hand, but I'm betting it didn't seem nearly as onerous or dangerous as would the last. And the one before that was easier, yet, to make. At some much earlier point, Pilate might well have decided to become a simple farmer. The day of Calvary, that choice might no longer have seemed possible. Pilate placed each domino himself, but where he placed them was necessarily a reflection of where he had placed all the ones before. Bad choices carry consequences. When one choice is an attempt to evade the consequences of an earlier choice, we usually just compound the consequences and move them further along the chain. Each of Pilate's decisions left him with fewer alternatives, until I'm sure he felt the chain inevitably resolved to choices between lesser or greater evils. How many men haven't, at some time, painted themselves into similar corners? Never did Pilate wake up and say, "Gee, I think I'll be evil today and kill the only innocent man the world has ever known." At each step in his life, I think Pontius Pilate, like every other man born of man, was just trying to make the best of a bad situation. I don't have to like or support his choices, but I would be a fool not to try to better understand them. Labeling Pilate as evil only gets in the way of that understanding. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: I know there's a balance to all things. And going around thinking everyone else is evil is not at all what I'm talking about. But thinking that men, in general, can't be evil, might, at the very least, get in the way of understanding that one's own deeds could be evil rather than "trying to make the best of a bad situation". There are exit doors all along the way, opportunities to turn, to repent, as it were, in the darkest of tunnels. Doesn't the problem manifest when we veer from thinking about what is "right", to what is "right for us"? Though the two may overlap, when they don't, the test usually presents itself. Was Pilate thinking of what was right, in and of itself (remember he had some pretty big clues)? Or was he thinking of his own political hassles, and how that was more important? But "trying to understand" the causes or rationalizations behind someone's evil choices, is certainly a worthwhile study. I think, for one, it might help us to avoid making some of the same mistakes. God knows, I'm in the same needy little boat. Stephen. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
To me, it seems that a visual representation of the death caused by the war might be a way to get people to stop thinking about the soldiers as numbers. Because you know what we hear on the news every day? "Four more American soldiers killed in Iraq today..." "The death toll in Iraq has now passed 1,000 American troops..." In our news, they become numbers, in the brief and matter-of-fact way it is reported. But a grave is not a number, and shocking as it is, it might remind people who aren't thinking of the gravity of the situation of the importance of each and every life lost. After all, seeing is believing. On the other hand, it could just be a politically motivated farce, especially seeing that the perpetrators flew the scene. I don't think it takes away from the inherent message though... just the motivation. Does pure political motivation justify it? No... but an intention to make people think about the death that occurs daily does. As far as evil goes... how'd that come up? Anyway, I think the whole concept of evil is something we made up to make ourselves feel better.... that person did something horrible? Let's give it a label like "evil" to differentiate that person from us, because we're not evil... which is a load of crap. We all have the potential to do terrible things, given the right mental state (Psychosis will lead you to believe a lot of things that really aren't true), situation (killing to protect a loved one, for example), or coercion (can we say: draft?) |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I don't watch a lot of movies any more, but interestingly enough, I watched the much lauded Cold Mountain last night, a love story set amidst the carnage of the American Civil War. I couldn't help but think of this thread, of this war, because the brutality and de-humanization depicted in the movie seem pretty typical, to me, of the way man has always waged war on other men. A hundred and fifty years from now, the men and women dying in Iraq really will be just numbers and largely lost names. Maybe another good writer of that new era will pen another good love story, in the process dramatizing the pain of those we've lost these past few years. Clearly, I think, if any writer tried to write that story today, they would likely be nailed to a cross. For disrespect? For having an agenda? Or, maybe, just because the hurt is still too close for most of us? It's a pity, I think, that we have to wait to remember. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I saw a young lady on television Ron who didn't want us to wait to remember. It was one of the more poignant displays I've seen since this new era began. She was in Arizona in the crowd for the Chris Matthews show wearing a T-Shirt she'd made herself, it was an epic in and of itself. It had a picture of a young man on it, and the words, Zero WMD's, 1 Dead Brother. A mother doesn't, indeed, if one believes, God doesn't -- count past one. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Hush: quote: You replace "evil" with "terrible". But what's the difference between terrible deeds and evil deeds? I've watched people try to deny that evil exists, and I think it's futile, because other words just end up in place of it which paint the same picture. Evil is a reality, not merely a label, or an idea. On the other hand, I agree with you that we can judge others to exclusion of judging ourselves ... which is an "evil" tendency of it's own. Stephen. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Maybe the difference is in the semantics? Evil, to me, implies a willful wrongdoing. A decision to be a bad person, but I don't think that exists, at least not in a pure way. Yes, we do have the capability to do bad, or wrong, or hurtful things without thinking about them. Some of us even think abou them- but it all boils down to "What's good for me?" Someone does something they somehow perceive to be good- for themselves, if for nobody else. |
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