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Passions in Poetry

Third Presidential Debate

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Mistletoe Angel
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50 posted 10-20-2004 10:17 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Kerry has every right to be brought to criticism about his Senate record these past twenty years, as does Bush's record these past four years.

(Hey, I don't think I've heard anything about Bush's record as Governor of Texas, by the way! ).

The fact is, Bush is spending so much time trying to get last minute votes by using the whole "Kerry is the most liberal senator" or "That's a lot even for a senator from Massachusetts" spin.

Yeah...in 2003...when Kerry was beginning to run in the primaries and in preparation didn't have the time to attend 37 of the 62 votes on which this ranking was based by The National Journal.

But the whole label is a lie. The Journal actually ranks him the 11th most liberal senator. And even if he was ranked #1, I would wish for him to be more liberal than he is now, like the 1971 Kerry who protested the Vietnam War. He really isn't that far from the center, and Bush is playing this dirty game of turning "liberal" into a foul word.

Speaking of bills, both Bush and Kerry were wrong on how many Kerry has passed. Bush said he wrote 300 and passed only five. Kerry said he passed 56 individual bills he wrote himself, which include 24 resolutions not enforced by law.

The correct answer passed and made law is actually eleven. They include the following: (Source: FactCheck.org)

***********************************

* S.791:  Authorizes $53 million over four years to provide grants to woman-owned small businesses. (1999)

S.1206: Names a federal building in Waltham, Massachusetts after Frederick C. Murphy, who was killed in action during World War II and awarded (posthumously) the Medal of Honor. (1994)

S.1636: A save-the-dolphins measure aiming "to improve the program to reduce the incidental taking of marine mammals during the course of commercial fishing operations." (1994)

S.1563: Funding the National Sea Grant College Program, which supports university-based research, public education, and other projects "to promote better understanding, conservation and use of America’s coastal resources." (1991)

S.423: Granting a visa and admission to the U.S. as a permanent resident to Kil Joon Yu Callahan. (1987)

H.R.1900 (S.300): Awarded a congressional gold medal to Jackie Robinson (posthumously), and called for a national day of recognition. (2003)

H.R.1860 (S.856): Increased the maximum research grants for small businesses from $500,000 to $750,000 under the Small Business Technology Transfer Program. (2001)

S.J.Res.158: To make the week of Oct. 22 – Oct. 28, 1989 "World Population Awareness Week." (1989)

S.J.Res.160: To renew "World Population Awareness Week" for 1991. (1991)

S.J.Res.318: To make Nov. 13, 1992 "Vietnam Veterans Memorial 10th Anniversary Day." (1992)

S.J.Res.337: To make Sept. 18, 1992 "National POW/MIA Recognition Day." (1992)


************************************

Anyone has the right to keep analyzing kerry's record, but what's also important is unraveling Bush's record these past four years, which I find even more embarrassing myself.

I actually wish Kerry could do more than he is in exposing that.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Balladeer
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51 posted 10-20-2004 10:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The claim is 56 and the actual count is 11? Would you call that a little more than a minor discrepancy, Noah? Those 11 include...

Naming a federal building
Granting a visa to an individual
Calling for a Jackie Robinson Day
Creating a World population Awareness Week
Renewing a World Population Awareness Week
Naming a day for Viet Nam vets
Naming a day for POW/MIA's

Some real heavy stuff there. See anything there about health care, tax relief for the middle class, or any of the other things he claims to now have all the answers for? Nothing....the record is pathetic for a 20 year career and this is the man in whose hands you would place the economy and safety of the United States? I'm not sure the Democrats could have picked anyone less qualified to represent them....he was an interesting choice.
Alicat
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52 posted 10-20-2004 10:38 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

That's the crux, Noah.  Most voters against Bush are just that: against Bush.  They really don't care who the Democratic opponet is, they just want Bush out due to his, primarily, stealing the office from Gore.  Everything else is window dressing.  And yes, I say stealing in the worst sense: theft, usurper, false.  They don't care who's in office, so long as it isn't Bush.  So Kerry has become the Default Candidate, and voters still don't know a lot about Kerry, as he really hasn't said much about his Senate record, unless he's under attack by Bush.  In most Presidential contest, the candidates display their record.  In this one, only Bush has spoken of his.  Kerry has briefly, but only under duress.
Brad
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53 posted 10-20-2004 10:57 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Are you kidding?

But I guess this is the world as seen through the prism of a Bush supporter. The last four years of mistake after mistake, of imbecilic rhetoric, outright lies, secrecy, distortion, corruption, denial of evidence, fantasyland tours and vacations just don't matter.

He's a nice guy.

Have you at least gotten it though your skull that I think Kerry would make a good president?

There are a few of us who through fact after fact about the problems of the last four years, Bush supporters never talk about the record, they talk about character.

He's a nice guy.

The only possible reason we could be against Bush is that we don't like him?

God, give me a break and look in a mirror.

No, look at the last four years.
Brad
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54 posted 10-20-2004 11:24 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46554-2004Oct19.html

quote:
"I have no outside advice" in the war on terrorism, President Bush told Bob Woodward in December of 2001. In an interview that Woodward revealed to Nicholas Lemann in last week's issue of the New Yorker, Bush insisted that, "Anybody who says they're an outside adviser of this Administration on this particular matter is not telling the truth. First of all, in the initial phase of the war, I never left the compound. Nor did anybody come in the compound. I was, you talk about one guy in a bubble."


And you want this guy for another four years? Kerry listens and engages people all the time.

Aenimal
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55 posted 10-20-2004 11:34 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Rich Canadians cross the border to have it done in the US. Less financially sound souls can either wait in pain for a year or risk breaking the law at the "illegal" clinics. I guess health care everywhere could use a little "tweaking" once in a while


I agree wholeheartedly, thanks to the last administration things are a mess here in Ontario. To be fair it's a combination of both provincial and Federal governments tooling with a good thing. And while coverage is still top notch, waiting times for surgeries, MRIs and even ERs is getting ridiculous and has to be addressed.

Rich and poor have been forced to cross the border for certain operations, they just have healthcare foot the bill later, thats the beauty of canadian health care, as a citizen you're covered wherever you go.

There was a huge summit a few weeks ago between the Federal and Provincial governments but all I heard was alot of static and another reason Liberals have earned the moniker 'Fiberals' here.
Aenimal
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56 posted 10-21-2004 12:29 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Vote Kerry, I dare ya   A little humour
http://wearabledissent.com/101/floridaballot.html#

lmao
Mistletoe Angel
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57 posted 10-21-2004 01:03 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Balladeer, the Democrats didn't just flat-out choose Kerry. The Iowa and New Hampshire caucuses chose Kerry.

From the beginning, progressives and liberals just wanted someone with the best shot at defeating Bush this November. Dean was the favorite for quite a while, but apparently Kerry's experience in town hall speeches helped him come up on top in Iowa, and it was basically there the whole ABB bandwagon launched off.

Had Kucinich won in Iowa, he would be the Democratic candidate now. Had Dean won, he would be the Democratic candidate now.

The fact is, the whole primary system is uneven and unfair, and needs to be reformed so each primary matters. Perhaps it was just because of the passion to have a change of leadership come November that helped Kerry to conquer virtually every state, but in either way we need a more democratic form of primary. (I voted Kucinich in the Colorado caucus, by the way! )

I don't find Kerry's record remarkable or majestic, but I'd personally certainly prefer him over another four years with Bush. Bush's record in comparison is far more unsatisfactory than Kerry's, with a net loss in job creation, the worst environmental record ever, health care net loss, and, most infamously of all, credited for taking us into another senseless war America cannot win.

Alicat, I'd have to disagree with you on your reasoning to why most voters against Bush want the Democratic opponent to win. I absolutely agree Bush stole 2000 and have a case to support that argument, but, after all, over 70% of Americans after 9/11 believed Bush, actually were deceived into thinking Saddam attacked us and trusted Bush was doing just what he had to do to defend America.

But, the truth behind this senseless war continues to come out and in one poll I've even seen Bush's approval rating at one of its lowest levels yet: 44%. Millions want Bush out not necessarily because he is an unofficial president anyway and squandered the previous election, but because they feel he has squandered America.

Bush said before, "I am a war president!". He has his own idea of what spreading freedom and peace to the world is, and that's OK, after all, millions believe his definition of freedom.

All I, and millions of fellow progressives, say in response is just what Abbie Hoffman said during Vietnam: "Peace is a very complicated concept. When the lion gobbles up the lamb and wipes his lips, then there's peace. Well, I ain't for that peace at all."

Kerry may not be as anti-war as I am, but there is a distinction between him and Bush. Kerry recognizes this is the wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time, realizes the consequences in result of this, and wants to begin getting our young men and wome out of there six months into his first term if elected and have them all out of Iraq by the end of his first term if elected. Bush refuses to acknowledge his error of judgement, however, and his stubborn demeanor continues to dig us deeper into this albatross.

I wish we could have someone like Kucinich or Cobb or Winona LaDuke currently in Kerry's place, but, even Kerry is worth my vote over Bush.

By the way, I have already voted and proudly mailed off my ballot Tuesday, yay! I voted in Kerry for President, of course, plus Teresa Keane, a Green, for U.S Senate, two Freedom Socialists, plus, where no alternative candidates were available, Democrats elsewhere except for two Republicans in Districts 31 and 45, whose moderate positions seemed to agree with me better than those particular Democrats' mainstream positions.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Mistletoe Angel
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58 posted 10-21-2004 04:58 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/21/laura.teresa/index.html

Laura Bush brushes aside Heinz Kerry's remarks

'She didn't have to apologize. I know how tough it is.'

Thursday, October 21, 2004 Posted: 3:40 PM EDT (1940 GMT)

Laura Bush speaks on Thursday with citizens in New London, New Hampshire, on a campaign stop.
      
LEBANON, New Hampshire (CNN) -- Laura Bush on Thursday brushed off comments about her work experience that were made by Teresa Heinz Kerry, who told USA Today she was unsure if Bush had ever held a "real job."

Asked about Heinz Kerry's apology Wednesday for what she said, Bush responded, "It didn't matter to me. It didn't hurt my feelings. It was perfectly all right that she apologized. She didn't have to apologize. I know how tough it is. And actually I know those trick questions."

Bush talked to reporters outside the Lebanon Opera House in Lebanon, New Hampshire, as she prepared to give a speech.

Heinz Kerry said Wednesday she was "sincerely sorry" for making the comments during an interview that appeared in Wednesday's USA Today. (Heinz Kerry apologizes for remark)

"I had forgotten that Mrs. Bush had worked as a school teacher and librarian, and there couldn't be a more important job than teaching our children," Heinz Kerry said.

"As someone who has been both a full-time mom and full-time in workforce, I know we all have valuable experiences that shape who we are.

"I appreciate and honor Mrs. Bush's service to the country as first lady, and am sincerely sorry I had not remembered her important work in the past."

Laura Bush was a teacher and librarian in Texas from 1968 to 1977.

Heinz Kerry made the comments to the newspaper when asked about the differences between the first lady and her.

"Well, you know, I don't know Laura Bush. But she seems to be calm, and she has a sparkle in her eye, which is good. But I don't know that she's ever had a real job -- I mean, since she's been grown up. So her experience and her validation comes from important things, but different things."

Born in Mozambique, Heinz Kerry worked for the Trusteeship Council of the United Nations in the 1960s when she moved to the United States.

She has also been the chairman of The Howard Heinz Endowment and the Heinz Family Philanthropies since her first husband, Sen. John Heinz, died in a plane crash in 1991.

Heinz Kerry has three sons and two step-daughters.

The first lady has two daughters.

CNN's Silvio Carrillo contributed to this report."


********************************

See now, Teresa's words even sounded innocent to Laura Bush herself.

I say we make this a lesson and from here on when someone says something on the campaign trail, we don't just leap to conclusions and distort the tone of the words unless it is a direct insult or ridicule, etc.

I think the problem with how everyone like Karen Hughes overreacted to what she said was that they disected the quote and heard out solely the "real job" part when the rest of the quotation was said in a positive light, like the "gleam in her eye", etc.

It can be understood how when one part sounds blunt the quotation in whole sounds blunt. Just overreacting I believe here.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Alicat
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59 posted 10-21-2004 06:15 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

I've already voted as well.  Bush, then tossups between Democrats and Republicans whom I thought would do the best job based on their blurb in the Voting Guide we get here which lists all candidates for various positions, their photo, if they participated in state/federal funding, district if State, and a short biography/resume.  The main reason I did not vote for any Libertarians was that they did not provide a photo or the bio/resume, so I have no idea what they wanted to bring to their position.  Two Dems for the state commerce commission blew their chance with me for using scare tactics in a mail vote-for-me message.  And a Rep judge blew it for mishandling several court cases...judges CANNOT influence juries with whether or not someone is a flight risk, period.
A Romantic Heart
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60 posted 10-22-2004 03:55 AM       View Profile for A Romantic Heart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for A Romantic Heart

After viewing the third debate....My favorite part was the question to both Kerry and Bush about their wives.

From both Bush and Kerry I was under the impression that the women rule their households.

What America should also consider that it isn't just a man that you are putting into office as president, but a team....husband and WIFE.

I liked Bush's answer and I think Mrs. Bush is a very smart, caring and classy lady to be representing women of America.(And her reaction to Teresas negitive comment(which shows us Teresas character)showed that Mrs. Bush is a very patient, forgiving, intelligent lady who handled the situation maturely and she didn't have to stoop that low or get on Teresas level.

I don't know about you....but I would rather have a classy, smart, caring first lady. Than a loud, filthy mouth spoiled rich brat who always gets her way....

Ladies and gentlemen, she would be running our country....not Kerry! especially since he is more liberal....she would love to run our country like she runs the Heniz company.

Sorry but America means more than a bottle of ketchup to me...(There is alot of difference between running a country and producing ketchup).

One more thing....If a man can run his own household right, look at the children, look at his relationship to his wife, his parents. The proof is in the pudding...if he can run his household and be a great father, a faithful husband, etc...then he be faithful to your country, someone you can trust, believe in and who stands on their word, their promises, someone you can depend on to follow through with those promises...not just blow empty air to fill us up and make us feel warm and happy for a season and then have our balloon burst.


I like how Bush says what he thinks, it seems more real and honest not fake or written like a news report or a book.He seems to be what you see is what you get, it is all out there for you to see, where as with Kerry it is like pulling a string on the back of a Ken Doll....I am sorry but even his face looks sneaky, like one of those sneaky car salesmen.

Writing poety and stories myself, I know how words can be so full of fluff, so manipulating. Prepared speeches are just that...

I would prefer someone who speaks from their heart, says what is on their mind, even if it doesn't sound perfect or if they make a mistake from time to time...(making a mistake and right out attacking someone personally is two different things)

To me I have noticed Kerrys ads(speeches in debates) more attacking.."Hey let me get the attention off of me from what I can(promise) ....to look at Bush and how bad he is...." (this will stall them long enough so I can get into the White House....I have a plan...I plan....even though we never see or hear the plan. Even Jesus was against this in the bible...Get the beam out of your own eye before getting the splinter out of your brothers...


I was always a democratic voter...until I voted Clinton in, then I become a republican...I am not looking at parties, but the men and their character, and who I would trust and believe in...just like a marriage.

George Bush is someone who I feel as a daughter I could trust and believe in, I believe he and Laura have Americas best interest at heart.

Bush cannot be blamed, he came into a position that had leftovers and mistakes covered up by Clintons lies and mistakes.Clinton was an actor a front man, full of air and fluff.Then after he left, all the trash was not taken out it was swept under the rugs...

We cannot allow any of our men and women who have died in this war to be dishonored, they died for what they believed in, for what they held was right, and we as a country, a world must also believe as they do, we must support our men and women, honor their brave hearts....when we say that the war was wrong, etc... we are disgraceing those who are there now, and the ones who have died for the reason they held to in their hearts.

I don't care what the President says that the war is for, or what anyone one says..it all comes down to the soldiers, to what they believe in, in freedom, in America.

They are out there in my place....they are doing this for me....for each of us who get to sleep in a nice bed and get up with all our comforts , our families each day.

Bush did what he had to with 9/11, What would you have done or done differently?

To be honest, I was so upset and mad(as most of us were)...I was worried why we waited so late to attack and send troops...

We are not wimps....we are America, the brave, the strong, united we need to stand.

I say bring-on the debates between the Wives....Let Laura and Teresa debate it out..behind every good man is a good woman.Taking that to heart, within that is your answer America.

Just wanted to share my thoughts and feelings on the topic.

~ARH
Mistletoe Angel
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61 posted 10-22-2004 04:40 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

ARH, let's back up a little here.

What was "negative" about Teresa's comment? It was a positive comment. She said she has a sparkle in her eye. She said she's calm, and her experience and validation come from important things.

And if you're judging her comment solely by "real job", even though I never found that blunt to begin with, she immediately did the classy thing and apologized anyway before Laura Bush came out and said no apology was necessary.

I absolutely agree Laura Bush is a wonderful First Lady. She is a woman with a good heart, a deep sense of character, and strong integrity. I have much respect for her teaching in the past, and what she does now for her own foundation for public libraries, continuing to promote Ready to Read, Ready to Learn, her contributions to the National Heart Lung and Blood Institute, and being the heart and soul of launching the National Book Festival in Washington, D.C.

Teresa Heinz Kerry would also make a wonderful First Lady in my opinion. Her life story is very inspiring, from how she grew up in Mozambique, learned five languages, travelling around the world studying, then moving into the United States and worked with the United Nations before marrying John Heinz, and since the tragic plane crash on their 25th anniversary, has lead the Howard Heinz Endowment and the Heinz Family Philanthropies.

Teresa I believe also endows the qualities and ethics of a great First Lady. She's done a lot for improving education and protecting the environment. She established the Women's Institute for a Secure Retirement in 1996. She won the Albert Schweitzer Gold Medal for Humanitarianism. She gave $20 million to build the H. John Heinz III Center for Science, Economics and the Environment.

Teresa has the heart, the experience, and the strength to be America's next First Lady. Sometimes, indeed she has some sass in her convictions, but it is harmless and I think the strength of ones convictions make one human. We all have some sass to go around!

As far as your latter point is concerned, indeed the "what you see is what you get" approach is effective and important. Then again, during the debates, especially the first and final ones, Bush certainly wasn't the same Bush you see out on the campaign trail, who to many is like everyone's friendly neighbor to the south, with a strong sense of street smart. He had long five-second pauses often, wore a nervous face, and was inarticulate. That ALSO means something. It struck me that Bush is no real visionary, and I feel personally Bush is also pulled by a string, maybe from Karl Rove, I don't know.

But I believe Kerry really knows what he is talking about. He has the facts, he has deep arguments, but he was also human. He looked into the camera to say he will not sign any piece of legislation that increases taxes for families below an income of 200K. He was just as human as Bush was on that final question in Debate Three when he admitted, "marrying up", telling of his late mother's final words to him, and expressing his faith. I believe Kerry not only knows much of what he talks about, he feels much of what he talks about.

Clinton indeed made some great errors, such as the Welfare Reform Act and the Telecommunications Act for example, but this does not excuse Bush from blame. He is responsible for taking us into a war we cannot win with his bad judgement and impatience, which has costed the lives of about 1,100 of our young men and women and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians. His bad decisions are responsible for the first net loss in jobs in 72 years. His bad decisions are responsible for the worst environmental record in any presidency in American history. His bad decisions are responsible in part for assault weapons back on the streets, rights of privacy and police brutality under the Patriot Act, more being put into poverty than brought out of it, etc.

Bush can be blamed. And you SHOULD care about what Bush says about the war. Would you just keep silent every time any president decides to invade another country and simply say, "It all comes down to the soldiers!"?

Most worldwide are saing the world is more dangerous and less safe because of this war. Shouldn't this send a signal to our troops? Shouldn't this sound a signal to every family in America and worldwide?

I agree just as much as you do that we should all get to sleep in a nice bed and get up with our families each day in comfort, where we shouldn't have to be afraid. Where we disagree is how we should have went about resolving the conflict after 9/11.

I'd tell you exactly what I'd do differently. First and most importantly, NOT invade Iraq. I believe peace is non-violent in true definition. I'm not for that peace where the lion feasts on the lamb and wipes his lips like Abbie Hoffman said before. Bush's stump dialogue on "spreading freedom across the globe" is just a euphemistic, smokescreen cover-up of a semi-imperialistic to imperialistic campaign to occupy and reform the patterns of living or ways of life that do not agree with our ways of living.

Secondly, I believe what many fail to realize is takes terrorizing someone to make a terrorist. Terrorism is a psychological disease, and fighting fire with fire I believe only infuriates the problem. We've got to mediate the flame, understand the psyche of terrorism, and allow the effort and time to listen and understand where these terrorists came from and what drove them to their ways of terrorism. Get to the history of it. They may very well have been terrorized themselves, and it is love that will conquer hatred.

Finally, education. And not a unilateral type of education either, just to promote the ethics and morals of non-violence and to respect and understand diversity of cultures and religions worldwide. A recent poll said 25% of U.S citizens have negative portrayed stereotypes of Muslims. We've got to solve this problem and end the increasing furor of stereotype images that can damage relationships.

Finally, ARH, I absolutely agree with you on the need for presidential candidate wives debates.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

 
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