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monitoring the election process

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Midnitesun
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0 posted 09-28-2004 02:01 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

It seems I had to go to a Canadian source for this info, and that is beyond sad. It's barely been mentioned in most American papers.
The message is clear: WATCH Florida, again. And while you're at it, watch ALL the election procedures and keep an eye on what your own state does to encourage/discourage individual voting groups.
The link takes you to some issues raised by former President Carter.   http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1096306030421_91715230/


RSWells
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1 posted 09-28-2004 02:37 PM       View Profile for RSWells   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RSWells

What kind of American would deny a paper receipt?

Or any proof and verifiability for potential recounts?

Or go to court to stall any such legislation?

Or abuse their power to redefine voting districts purposely disenfranching people they view as not their own (almost always Black) by breaking up the very neighborhoods in which they are corralled to crush a voting bloc?

Or illegally and fraudulently enroll tens of thousands of innocent citizens, known to be in a minority, on lists of felons who can't vote and once their sin pointed out drag their legal feet as hard as they could to make certain the wrong could not be righted in time?


What kind of American doesn't think everyone has the right to vote?


The neocons who control George W. Bush.

If you know what's been going on in this country and you vote for Bush you are culpable.
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2 posted 09-28-2004 02:47 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

hey RS, good to see you. What kind, indeed. Political dirty deeds and election 'mismanagement' runs as rampant in this country as in many others.
BTW, this is the first time I've ever put up a yard sign, and only the second time I've ever put a bumper sticker on my car.
*Kerry-Edwards*



***
and in case anyone thinks it's just happening in Florida.... http://stinging-nettle.blogspot.com/
Aenimal
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3 posted 09-28-2004 03:30 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd09262003.html
Midnitesun
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4 posted 09-28-2004 03:44 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

THANKS Raph! that is another really good source for bringing up the garbage that some forces in this country try to keep undeground.
I say, let it all bubble up for the world to see. That's the only way to air it out, get rid of the stench.
Mistletoe Angel
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5 posted 09-29-2004 01:35 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

The fact is, this election will likely boil on down to Florida again, assuming Kerry gets every state Gore won in 2000 including close states like Wisconsin and Iowa. (Bush will take Ohio and Missouri I believe)

It doesn't take a rocket scientist either to see this may very well be another dirty election like the theft of 2000's. House Resolution 3295, a.k.a the Help America Vote (For Me) Act, says the following:

"To establish a program to provide funds to States to replace punch card voting systems, to establish the Election Assistance Commission to assist in the administration of Federal elections and to otherwise provide assistance with the administration of certain Federal election laws and programs, to establish minimum election administration standards for States and units of local government with responsibility for the administration of Federal elections, and for other
purposes."


$4 billion went into this proposal, which Bush signed on October 29th, 2002. Why wouldn't he?

Back in 2000, Katherine Harris clarly was the guilty, bias conscience, who was responsible for allowing DataBase Technologies, a company known for organizing spreadsheets, to compose a list of convicts so their voting rights would be disabled. According to Greg Palast of BBC America, the greatest mind behind the scandal and the producer of "Bush's Family Fortunes", discovered the spreadsheet, and it included 93,000 Floridians alone, 54% of which were African-American, and which 93% of them would have voted for Gore. On top of that, approximately 95% of these "convicts" only had misdemeanor charges, which minor charges such as this do not justify disabling ones voting right. Voter disenfranchisement was a partisan game played in Florida, and that stole the election for Bush.

Then, of course, we know about how the biased Supreme Court refused to acknowledge those results and favored Bush's inauguration immediately.

This will be Florida all over again. Luckily, this time we know of the consequences and what those like Katherine Harris intend to do. Michael Moore will be down there with cameras monitoring the election office. Unforunately, machines fault so easily, as some trial runs have already proven, and we'll have to be intensely vigilant in this crucial time of Diebold.

Another partisan game is in the works, my friends. And the best way we can make justice of this is demand the counts to be taken to the streets, not to the cubicles.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Alicat
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6 posted 09-29-2004 05:56 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

I get the distinct feeling that if any Republican or conservative Independant raised this issue, certain 527's would consider this a scare tactic and spin it into a Bush conspiracy.

I also gather that if any Democrat, liberal Independant, or other 'non-offensive' politician wins any election for any post, the system works.  If any Republican or conservative Independant wins any election for any post, the system is flawed and/or rigged.  I truly wonder what the pundits will say if President Bush ends up winning both the Popular and Electoral votes.
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7 posted 09-29-2004 06:45 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527grps.asp

To be an educated voter, one should really follow the political $$$ trails as well as studying voting records, and as a last resort, reading and listening to the canned media
Denise
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8 posted 09-29-2004 11:59 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

They'll probably say that was fixed too, Ali, that the "grand conspiracy" just keeps growing and growing and growing and growing.

No paper ballot will ever be acceptable and no electronic ballot will ever be acceptable. A landslide victory will not convince them. You'll hear ever-increasing cries to bring in the U.N. to monitor our voting booths. Unless of course their guy wins. Then everything is cool. "Problem, what problem? How could there be a problem, the right guy, our guy, won!"
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9 posted 09-30-2004 02:54 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

A landslide victory? ROTFLMAO. That is beyond 'doubtful' for either party if those polls are at all credible.
What I am seeking in this thread is simple: honesty and truth, and asking that people vote responsibly, based upon facts, not innuendos or thirty second mud slinging political sound bites.
I have no intentions of getting into a verbal or written gutter with anyone. Snide remarks will close this thread, which was started as a link to provide EVERYONE with a political Who's Who $$ list, and to link interested readers to additional documents that indicate there are some serious election irregularities. Gerrymandering...district boundaries being redrawn...these are things I recall happening even in the late fifties, when my mother was politically active. I went to my first political fund raiser when I was less than 10 years old, and remember vividly how the grownups were complaining about 'the other party's dirty tactics' So, it's nothing new, it's just that people are getting caught more often/more easily these days, and the general populace hears about it faster thanks to the very same electronic media that allows us this forum site. (thanks to the generosity of Ron Carnell)
It's obvious that no matter which way the election goes, some people will be spitting complaints for years to come. And the so-called debates? they will no doubt be as canned and phony as the last time, and will probably generate more heated discussions than this thread ever could.  
Just vote your conscience, and hopefully, with 'facts' based on the truth.
Midnitesun
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10 posted 09-30-2004 11:00 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Actually, as far as the'debate' is concerned, I found it far more lively and enlightening than I had anticipated, and hope most voters had a chance to listen or watch.
Aenimal
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11 posted 09-30-2004 11:52 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

While the article provided points to conflicts with Republican interests, I concede that Demecrats are equally capable of doing the same, thus the need for closer monitoring of the elections.

Kacy I thought it was a healthy debate,and that Kerry did well in explaining his positions past and present. It'll take a few more debates but I think anyone impartial, can see the 'flip flop' issue is inaccurate, that is, if they took the time to listen to what Kerry had to say.

It didn't stop Bush or Republican analysts from repeating the 'indecisive' mantra. It seems they're hoping that repeating it enough times will MAKE it truth.
Midnitesun
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12 posted 10-01-2004 12:13 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Glad to have your feedback, thanks Raph.
Denise
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13 posted 10-02-2004 08:47 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Kacy, I did not say that this election had even the possibility of being a landslide. I said that a landslide would not convince those bent on believing that the race was fixed.

I also had heard of Carter's 'warnings' and I didn't even have to rely on Canada's news media. I heard it right here in the States on the major networks and Fox news, and read it in both local papers here. And what I think is more than sad is your insinuation that somehow the media here at home was trying to suppress the story.

Your assertion that this thread was started for the purpose of providing the Who's Who $$ trail (the only non-biased link provided, by the way, and I thank you for providing it) is questionable since that link wasn't provided until more than 28 hours after the start of the thread. It seems more plausible that this thread was originally started, whether you were consciously aware of it or not, primarily as a platform for the purpose of presenting the 'anti-administration' view of voting irregularities, and to resurrect, once again, the liberal contention that the 2000 election was stolen.

After several blatantly partisan replies casting aspersions on the Bush Administration/Republican Party, directly and indirectly, which prompted affirmative responses from you, your warning to close the thread due to snide remarks came only after two opposing views were presented. Why is that? It's certainly possible to have a civilized discussion involving opposing viewpoints without it degenerating into a gutter brawl. Does the expression of opposing viewpoints, in your opinion, equate with "getting in the gutter" and "snide remarks"?  I don't think so, but if you do, then by all means, close the thread. That's your option. But letís not pretend it was something other than what it was intended to be then, okay?
Midnitesun
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14 posted 10-02-2004 09:04 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Denise, this is what I wrote:
"(It) started as a link to provide EVERYONE with a political Who's Who $$ list, and to link interested readers to additional documents that indicate there are some serious election irregularities"
(1)I had inadvertently left the other link out in the original post, came back to provide it without editing the original.
(2)I think you did insinuate pro-Kerry supporters would whine about the relative fairness of the election no matter what the results.
(3)In another thread, I noticed you've called Kerry a traitor because he spoke out against the war. Does this mean you feel anyone who speaks out against any war is a traitor?
(4)I'm glad to know you read about Carter's concerns. It wasn't even mentioned here locally, but then, I live in a small town, and rely on the Internet, World News networks, and NPR rather than the local paper for info. And when I searched on three major US papers front pages, there was nothing about Carter's comments visible the day I first heard about it. I followed several links to get to the Canadian source, which made some of his actual text available.  
Denise
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15 posted 10-03-2004 11:09 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
I had inadvertently left the other link out in the original post, came back to provide it without editing the original.


Fine, Kacy. That happens. And that would have given the thread a bit more of a bipartisan flavor if it had been included in the original, but still would have been an overwhelmingly partisan presentation that would inevitably receive feedback from those with a differnt viewpoint. If you present a partisan view of something, you have to be prepared for the other side to give their views also.  
quote:
I think you did insinuate pro-Kerry supporters would whine about the relative fairness of the election no matter what the results.


No, I think I insinuated that pro-Kerry supporters would whine about the relative fairness of the election if Kerry loses.

The Democrats have been whining non-stop about the 2000 election for almost four years now, and are gearing up already to cast doubt on the outcome of the upcoming election in the event that their candidate loses. I have no doubt that if their guy does lose that it will be more of the same non-stop whining as we have been subjected to since the 2000 election.
quote:
In another thread, I noticed you've called Kerry a traitor because he spoke out against the war. Does this mean you feel anyone who speaks out against any war is a traitor?.


No, I didn't say that I believe he is a traitor because he spoke out against the war, and no I don't believe that anyone who speaks out against any war is a traitor. You might need to go back and re-read what I actually did say in two other threads.
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/000996-3.html
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001002.html

Midnitesun
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16 posted 10-03-2004 11:32 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I did re-read some of the thread.
Denise
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17 posted 10-03-2004 11:37 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

And do you still think I am saying that I think Kerry committed treason for merely speaking out against the war, Kacy?
Midnitesun
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18 posted 10-03-2004 02:25 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

No, but I do think you interpret 'the facts' differently than I do, and cite different sources for the foundation of your comments. There are literally thousands of vets who protested the Viet Nam war that are also actively protesting this Iraqui invasion, and none of them should be dishonored for their opinions. I think it's too easy to lump them all together as 'traitors=protesters' and that's what seems to happen everytime someone speaks out during a war. Is there a better time to protest? God knows some of us were protesting BEFORE the actual attacks began, at a time when many of us felt, as we still do, that other means of dealing with foreign events were not being considered. The ability to voice dissent is a critical component of the electoral process, here in the US, as it is everywhere. And the point of this thread, as I said before, is to share information that is critical to being an informed voter. It's good that you research things. I'm just offering some additional info you, and others, may have inadvertently overlooked.
We do need to monitor the election process. It's in YOUR interest as well as mine, to believe the system works fairly for all of us, or the whole idea of voting will be considered a useless waste of time. some already feel it is, and choose not to vote. I encourage EVERYONE to vote, and vote with conviction, based upon the facts rather than rhetoric. The facts speak for themselves, but we apparently hear them differently.
Meanwhile, we have to hope that the election fiasco of 2000 is not repeated.
Aenimal
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19 posted 10-03-2004 02:36 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Democrats "whining" I like that, as if to say Republicans would have handled a defeat differently. The point is NOBODY should be happy with those results regardless of the outcome. As a democracy serious errors and conflicts calling into question an election should be 'whined' about and the truth discovered.
Midnitesun
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20 posted 10-03-2004 02:45 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Exactly.
Mistletoe Angel
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21 posted 10-03-2004 02:51 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Aenimal said it quite right.

I don't consider it "whining" when you KNOW something is wrong. And I believe you have the right to "whine" until the wrong is made right.

The 2000 Election was all about the vulnerability of democracy. And when the collected people of America announced they preferred Gore over Bush as their next president, as well as in Florida with the disenfranchised voters, democracy proved all too stoppable with the partisan politics and spin produced in Florida.

Seeing that the true winner of the 2000 election is a sitting duck, a great feel of loss and apathy has filled this nation I believe. Not that the apathy was never there to begin with, but a growing impression that ones vote really doesn't matter has filled hundreds of thousands of minds it seems. That corporate and lobbyist interests could always find a way around the system and invalidate the democratic process.

It is up to the people to preserve hope that they can make this right. We are "whining" in example of alarming everyone the injustice of the previous election and educating the masses of what this Help America Vote (For Me) Act is capable of doing this election, with the Diebold voting machines without paper trails.

Should 2000 repeat itself again, I don't know what millions are going to think of democracy again.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Denise
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22 posted 10-03-2004 07:52 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Again, I never said that protesting equates with treason. But consorting with the enemy, which the VVAW did, is treason.

Again, independent recounts were done by various news organizatins and colleges. They all came to the same conclusion: Bush won. The election was not stolen.

If the Republicans handled themselves as they did when the election results pointed strongly to wide spread voter fraud in Illinois to the benefit of Kennedy, and where it is suspected that an investigation would almost certainly have delivered the state and the election to Nixon, no, you wouldn't hear 4 years of whining about it. Nixon opted, for the good of the country, not to pursue the issue.

Aenimal
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23 posted 10-03-2004 09:23 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Ah yes, and it was for the good of the country that Starr and republicans spent millions desperately trying to impeach Clinton for a sexual affair as the world looked on.
Denise
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24 posted 10-05-2004 05:37 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Raph, I said 'if'.

I suppose what bothers me most about the complaining about the election for the past four years is the refusal of the complainers to acknowledge the fact that independent recounts were done, and not by organizations with any affiliation to the Republicans, and they all came to the same conclusion that the election was not stolen. That fact is consistently ignored and not addressed by the complainers.
 
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