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Passions in Poetry

Wearing the shirt of our beliefs

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Midnitesun
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25 posted 08-25-2004 01:42 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I'd like to wear one that reads

I'd rather be running nekked
in the blue
Stephanos
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26 posted 08-27-2004 11:44 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Hush:
quote:
Did you know that a lot of women have spontaneous abortions, produced by their own bodies? Did you consider that maybe poeple who have had abortions might be trying to seek each other out, or to shake the shame they feel or that they feel society has placed on them? Maybe the shirt just says "Hey, if you've also had an abortion, come talk to me... maybe we can share our experience."


Hush, I think that "I had an abortion" is a brazen enough statement to give us clues to the motivation for wearing it.  It gives me the feeling that a woman who wears this hasn't really come to terms with the shame of it.  It's "in your face" enough to make me think she's probably not pro life.  

But on the other hand, I think these kinds of things might reveal an insecurity too.  "Methinks you protest too much".  A brazen stance can be a facade as well, and a covering of a lot of pain.  And also they might be reacting to a very unloving and inflammatory response in their history from some "pro life" groups.  Warlike attack often does something to us ... makes us dig our heels in, quite seperate from the consideration of whether our "nationalism" is right or not.  Anyway, I say all of this to say, these shirts evoke a certain compassion in me, as well as an offense at the thought or idea presented.


And to the Local Parasite, this is a great thread, since there are endless Tees to generate discussion.  And I'm in agreement about the perfectly natural response of being "annoyed" by certain messages on T-shirts.  I think the trend of today is to think that true protest, moral or otherwise, is uncouth and a left-over from the age of monarchism, or Salem witch burnings.  The trend today is, sadly, that it's okay to be a little irritated, but don't be so to the point that someone might think you actually think you're right.  We are a "rights" focused society moreso than a right focused society.


I just want to encourage some, short of being a Jerk, to say "yeah that offends me" and try to offer cogent reasons.  What happened to the days of polemical confidence combined with chivalry?    


BTW ... isn't KMFDM an acronym for the German phrase "No Pity for the masses" or something like that?  That's hardly a political / ethical stance that I think you'd agree with.  I used to listen to rock/ metal myself and know very well about the almost irrational (yet kinda cool) feeling of devotion and fanship that isn't all that concerned with content.  But I would ask the question why do people wear things which portray ideas and concepts which they themselves would oppose in reality?  And is there any danger of the desensitization and familiarization that can occur from things like that.  


just to generate some more discussion ....


carry on,

(and after this we can discuss bumper stickers. lol.)

Stephen.    
hush
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27 posted 08-29-2004 10:57 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

"Hush, I think that "I had an abortion" is a brazen enough statement to give us clues to the motivation for wearing it."

Realisticall,y Stephen, you're probably right, but I just think it's a fallacy to assume something political about somone because of a T-shirt... it implies that she supports abortion... but you never know. Maybe she was emotionally marred by the experience and she hopes people will ask her about it so she can encourage them to consider it heavily before jumping in.

You never know.

I happen to have a gay pride bumper sticker on my car, and I'm pretty straight... not even a bi-curious bone left in my body. Now, my boyfriend accuses me of being a metro-sexual, but I happen to consider it my small way of supporting a civil rights cause worthy of recognition.

And I understand that people are going to think I'm gay, which is okay... but I can only hope the poeple who know me, and know I have a boyfriend, might consider why I'd have that sticker... and if they don't get it, I hope they'll ask.
Ron
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28 posted 08-30-2004 02:25 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
And I understand that people are going to think I'm gay, which is okay...

It's better than okay. If everyone thought everyone else was gay, discrimination would instantly become impossible.
Local Parasite
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29 posted 08-30-2004 03:00 AM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

Stephen,

KMFDM is annoyingly political.  Their name never used to have a really big political implication, although that's the original translation of it it's also been things like "No more power for you," which is another political statement again.

My only statement is I like the band's music, at least early on, before all the good members left & it turned into another orange-crate band...

Anyways, we were all teenagers once, and I'm sure we all have musical tastes that we're ashamed of.  I guess mine could be said to reflect a similar nostalgia:  "I used to listen to KMFDM too.  Come talk to me and let's share our experiences."

quote:
If everyone thought everyone else was gay, discrimination would instantly become impossible.


Yeah!  But then all the straight people would have to wear shirts that say "You may not think so but I'm really straight" or there'd be a whole lot of confusion.
Stephanos
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30 posted 08-30-2004 09:20 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Hush:
quote:
you never know. Maybe she was emotionally marred by the experience and she hopes people will ask her about it so she can encourage them to consider it heavily before jumping in.



Amy, that's always possible ... just not probable enough to prevent the natural deduction that would lead me to suspect that they are "pro-abortion".  


And as to your example about gay bumper stickers ... it's the same thing really.  Though you are not yourself a homosexual, you support the lifestyle in your ideology.  It is unlikely that you would don such a bumper sticker, just to generate conversation, if you believed homosexuality to be wrong or immoral.  Likewise, its doubtful that a woman who thinks abortion is wrong, would wear such a T-shirt.  The thing directly analogous to your example would be a woman who never committed an abortion herself, but was still an advocate of abortion rights, wearing that T-shirt.


And whether she's had an abortion or not, I would regardless be opposed to her abortion-friendly thoughts and ideals.    




LP:
quote:
Anyways, we were all teenagers once, and I'm sure we all have musical tastes that we're ashamed of.



That's true of me.   But on reflection, (and this is what produces the tension about it), it is not always the actual "musical taste" but the naked essence of the lyrics' message, that I'm ashamed of.  In fact I think my "rock and roll years" allowed me to hear some remarkably talented musical creativity.  But as cowards can wear noble clothes, or as sharp hooks can be wrapped in great tasting hors d'oeuvres (otherwise known as bait), some of the most contemptible ideas ever, made really great songs ... by the sheer musical energy and talent of these bands.  And I used to think a "great song" justified whatever message it contained ... for I assumed that to make a great song was the ultimate goal.  But I think I changed as I realized that "to make a great song" wasn't always their goal.   Not that they didn't immensely enjoy the musical aspect, but many of the songs were just vehicles to transfer their particular philosophical views, good or bad.


Needless to say, I played rock n roll then (I'm a musician myself), and I still relish playing those riffs.  You can't get the soul of rock n roll out of your system, even if it's a reformed soul.  I just write my own lyrics now.  And that's not to say there's not meaningful rock lyrics out there ... I'm just more selective than I used to be.          


Stephen
  
Kaoru
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31 posted 08-30-2004 02:25 PM       View Profile for Kaoru   Email Kaoru   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kaoru

I'm really offended by Abercrombie & Fitch t-shirts. Not because they're Abercrombie & Fitch, but because they cost $25 dollars a piece, ON SALE!

Okay, seriously, as I'd said I was going to step down before, I've found that I cannot. I have, however, changed my mind after giving it a lot of thought.

If we were to keep people from wearing this particular shirt, or any other shirt stating a religious/political belief, then that would be taking away a very basic freedom.

Freedom of speech is one of the most fought for, and  important rights we've been granted as Americans. I would feel like a thief if I were to take part in taking any of that away.

I know that some things, this in particular, are offensive..but that won't stop people from wearing it. My fight is for the reason.

If there's a good reason, then why not? Well, yes, it will offend people, it will cause conversation. A shirt like that doesn't necessarily say (to me) "Please, come talk to me about abortion". It says, "Please, talk to your friends about my shirt". It all depends on how you read it. I'd be slightly offended, but in the long run, I'd get over it and forget about it. I'd talk about it, think about it, then write it off as another thing that I let bother me at one point.

It would be hypocritical of me to judge a person based on 100% cotton. If I want to wear my slightly offensive band t-shirts, I have to accept that people will wear their slightly offensive political statements. Tit for tat, right? I don't like N'Sync, but there's nothing I can do about someone who does except for maybe tell them how much I hate their N'Sync t-shirt and that it offends me greatly that anyone would ever wear such an awful shirt. Then, I would be the one offending the N'Sync fan by basically saying, "I think your music taste sucks, therefore, you suck". It wouldn't be fair, and I certainly wouldn't like it if someone did that to me.

So, whilst I don't agree with the message the shirt portrays, it isn't my decision or right to take away the right for the person to wear it. Nor is it my business why they decided to wear it.

I'm done now.
hush
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32 posted 08-30-2004 11:24 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

But Ron... what about the kids??!!

Stephen... like I said, in most cases, you're probably right... but I do think it's (reasonably) possible at least that rather than having a political agenda, someone might wear it as a status symbol, or to seek recognition for other women who've had abortions... from a healthcare perspective, it is a statment that could be correlated with something like "I'm a recovering drug addict." Like a hey, look, there's this thing in my past and I just want to get it out there sort of thing.

But Stephen... dude... rock & roll? You? *gasp* no backwards Sabbath records I trust?

Kaoru:

"I don't like N'Sync, but there's nothing I can do about someone who does except for maybe tell them how much I hate their N'Sync t-shirt and that it offends me greatly that anyone would ever wear such an awful shirt."

LOL- I laugh because I have a friend who would do just that.
hush
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33 posted 08-30-2004 11:26 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Hmm... but Ron, the more I think about it... all the women would be liberated, and better yet, all the men would be sensitive, well-groomed, and smartly dressed. (I daresay they might even pick up after themselves?)

And all to keep up appearances!
Kaoru
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34 posted 08-31-2004 02:42 AM       View Profile for Kaoru   Email Kaoru   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kaoru

Hush:

"I laugh because I have a friend who would do just that."


Yeah, make that two friends.
serenity blaze
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35 posted 08-31-2004 02:58 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Make that three.

My initial response to viewing the objectional shirt was a visual of me, wearing a shirt that said,

"Oh YEAH? I just had a sphincteroidotomy!"

and if you wanna know how to spell that, contact my insurance company anonymously.

I'm not certain if inquiries are "covered."

Stephanos
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36 posted 08-31-2004 10:45 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

hush:
quote:
But Stephen... dude... rock & roll? You? *gasp* no backwards Sabbath records I trust?



You referring to Black Sabbath, or  to "back masking"?  


Why does that suprise you though?  I'm a saved sinner, not an angel.    

Stephen.
hush
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37 posted 08-31-2004 01:51 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Stephen-

I was referring to both, actually.

And no, I'm not suprised... I just have this mental picture of a long-haired metal head in the (late 70's? 80's?).... well, back in the day... and the comparison... well, yer' just so clean cut if I met ya, I think I'd wanna pinch your cheek... so you can imagine the conflicting images I have in my head, lol...

Oh, and seeings how we're both already in the same thread and it's not really going anywhere anymore- the first week back to school was interesting... I just saw my first vaginal delivery today (!!grins!!). And, on a sadder note, I also saw my first miscarried fetus... very informative OB day though...
jbouder
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38 posted 08-31-2004 04:11 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Stephen:

Glad to hear you weigh in on this ... but more glad I don't have to hang up Chevelle in favor of Stryper.  

But I can say without hesitation that I have given up Air Supply and ABBA without a trace of nostalgia.

In the interest of remaining on topic ... I'd wear either of these, depending on the day ...

http://www.cafepress.com/jibjabstore,jibjabstore.12997568?zoom=yes#zoom

or

http://www.cafepress.com/jibjabstore,jibjabstore.12997687?zoom=yes#zoom

Jim

P.S. Amy ... Watching the little-ones delivered is cool, huh?  Saw both of mine born and mark those experiences as highpoints of my life.
Juju
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39 posted 08-31-2004 10:06 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

freedom of speech......

unfortunitly there are the negatives. Sometimes you must open your mind as well, but at the same time be aware of the false hoods that exist.


its the best way i can express my feelings on this subject.

Juju
Stephanos
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40 posted 09-01-2004 12:41 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JIm,

ABBA?  Air Supply?

You're showing your age and/ or a certain former lapse of reason.  (I'm glad you're not here to slap me )


I never got bogged down in the cheese-pits like that.


The closest I got to that was Journey.  But I felt that Steve Perry's seraphic vocals were worth putting up with the melodramatic sentimentality at times.  


Other than that, I was a mystic rocker for a while (Yes and Pink)... and then a philosophic rocker (Rush and Kansas) ... and then a nonrocker (listened more to modern Jazz, like Al Dimeola ... and classical)


Now I'll listen to anything talented and exciting with a message that's not leading me into either moral failure, or existential despair.  (90% of that stuff centered around just those kinds of things).


But most of all, I enjoy making my own music.  (I was a music major for 2 years, and studied classical guitar.  Picked up folk, blues, rock guitar quite on my own).


Anyway, that's totally off the subject, but I enjoyed talking about it.


Oh, and about that Jib Jab ... now that's balance!

If you're going to poke fun, poke to the right AND the left.


Stephen.  


Christopher
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41 posted 09-01-2004 08:48 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Jim, I think you're the first person in the United States to openly and freely admit that they actually listened to ABBA!
jbouder
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42 posted 09-02-2004 10:13 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Chris:

It's part of my 12-step program.  My therapist tells me I'm lucky - had I acquired a musical taste for Barry Manilow, I might have been irreparably harmed.

Stephen:

Now I am admittedly a rock junky - e.g., Drowning Pool, Smile Empty Soul, Kid Rock.  I prefer catharsis to sedation ... what can I say?

Jim

P.S. Stephen - did you just call me old?
Stephanos
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43 posted 09-03-2004 11:37 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Jim,

Did I call you old?

I'm an R.N.  and the only "air supply" I know of comes in steel tanks  ... and is given to Geriatric patients.


Read between the lines.




Stephen
 
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