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Passions in Poetry

Another Democrat For President?...God Help Us..Especially Kerry

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Toerag
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since 07-29-99
Posts 5839
Ala bam a


0 posted 05-25-2004 03:08 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Thanks to Franklin Roosevelt, a DEMOCRAT, he introduced the Social Security program..He promised:

1) That participation in the program would be completely voluntary,

2) That the particants would only have to pay 1% of the first $1400 of their annual income into the program.

3) That the money the participants elected to put into the program would be deducted from their income for tax purposes each year,

4) That the money the participants put into the the independent "trust fund" rather than into the General operating fund, and therefore, would only be used to fund the Social Security Retirement Program, and no other Government program, and,

5) That the annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed as income.

Since many of us have paid into FICA for years and are now receiving a Social Security every month..and then finding that we are getting taxed on 85% of the money we paid to the Federal Government to "put away", you may be interested in the following:

Q: Which political party took Social Security from the independent "trust" fund and put it into the General fund so that Congress could spend it?

A: It was Lyndon Johnson and the Democratically controlled Senate.

Q: Which Polical Party eliminated the income tax deduction on FICA withholding?

A: The Democratic Party.

Q: Which political party started taxing Social Security?

A: The Democratic Party, with Al Gore casting the "tie breaking" deciding vote as President of the Senate, while he was Vice President of the U.S.

Q: Which political Party decided to start giving annuity payments to immigrants?

A: That's right, Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Party. Immigrants moved into this country, and at age 65, began to receive SSI Social Security payment, made by us though and they NEVER PAID A DIME INTO IT!!!

Then, after doing all this lying and thieving and violation of the original contract (FICA), the Democrats turn around and tell us the the Republicans want to take away your Social Security.

And this is not the saddest part, the sad thing is, there are so many gullible people out there that many are believing it?....You can't cover up everything with Heinz (made in Mexico) pickle juice or other Heinz products made in Brazil and Central America unless the people looking at these things are totally blind....

inot2B
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since 09-18-2000
Posts 2272
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1 posted 05-25-2004 03:19 PM       View Profile for inot2B   Email inot2B   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inot2B

Thank you for the history lesson.
I already planned on voting Republican, but this just gives me more fuel when I'm asked why.
Do you have any suggestions on how we can change the Social Security program?
Sunshine
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since 06-25-99
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2 posted 05-25-2004 03:44 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Thank you, Toe.  A lot of us older folks are aware of the history; but a lot of new, younger voters are not, and it will affect them as much in the long run.

You've done a good service to the PiP community.
Michelle_loves_Mike
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3 posted 05-25-2004 05:27 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

I've always been of this thought,,,,,,

"Believing that the President runs the country, is like believing Ronald runs McDonalds."

Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Toerag
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since 07-29-99
Posts 5839
Ala bam a


4 posted 05-25-2004 05:38 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

That's why we need to pray for as many Republicans in congress as possible...BTW Michelle Loves Mike....your comment on the other post about..."Probably, it's easier that way...don't have to change letterheads etc., was hilarious...sounds like something I'd write...(that may not be a compliment...LOL)
Ron
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5 posted 05-25-2004 06:05 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I'd be a little more impressed were this original and not copied word for word. But, I'd be a LOT more impressed if any effort had been made to ascertain its accuracy.

Myths And Misinformation About Social Security from ssa.gov

This month we celebrate the Five-Year Anniversary of these forums. Celebrate? Poor choice of words, I guess, for I certainly see little enough to celebrate. Clearly, people understand others no better today than they did five years ago. Honest communication is no less rare. We are no less divided by artificial boundaries like nationality, religion, race or political party. Hatred and distrust still reign over better alternatives. We've grown older, but no wiser.

The irony of an elected government is that people always get exactly what they deserve. Today, I find that especially frightening.
Larry C
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since 09-10-2001
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6 posted 05-25-2004 06:10 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

I hate it when that happens. Sorry Toe.

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


7 posted 05-25-2004 07:45 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Ron,

This is still one of the best places on the net. Believe it or not, I've been told by others that we've had some of the best discussions on controversial topics anywhere on the net.

Don't forget that in Heinlein's future history, he simply labeled our time 'the crazy years'. Let's just hope that we don't follow the next step .

Balladeer
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8 posted 05-25-2004 09:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, I'm very interested in knowing what you expected or what you hoped to create or achieve. I ask sincerely. I know at the beginning it was a poetry site...period. I assume that's what you were looking for. I think I remember you saying something about how much you had learned about poetry and writing from the members, including ballads, story-telling, free verse, etc. By inference that would mean (as was the case) others also learned from each other. It was succeessful at doing that. Our communication mainly consisted of what we expressed in our poetry. As the membership grew, however, so did the scope of the site. Non-poetic forums sprang up. Discussions, places to rant, to discuss world events came into being. Was this a continuation of your original plan? Did you feel that people from different countries, from all walks of life would somehow come to agree with each other in matters of religion, politics and international crises? I find that hard to believe. Have you ever seen that happen in any form of life, from kindergarten kids to the Congress? If that was your plan then I agree it failed as it was destined to do. If, however, your plan was simply to build a place, a home, where people could come together to share their poetry and camraderie then you cannot look at Passions as anything but an incredible success. Personally I would like to see it go back to being a poetry site but that's just me.

So, before calling it a success or branding it as a failure, remember what you original goals were and whether or not they were achieved. If worst comes to worst, you can always....shrug.
Janet Marie
Member Laureate
since 01-22-2000
Posts 18986


9 posted 05-25-2004 10:07 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

Ron, it's unfortunate you've had to spend so much of your time wading through all the cyber BS that comes with a forum of this nature and size -- all the legalities and personalities--all the conflicts and meltdowns you've had to deal with...(most of us haven't a clue)...I can understand why you'd be "jaded" and feel as your above statement offers.

But you--PIPS--we -- do have many reasons to celebrate.
We may have not changed "mankind" or solved the world's problems...but you have built a place where many have found safe haven and connected with others on a level that could have never been touched if not through this medium...there are so many little victories
of heart in between the lines on these pages.
Beyond the locked threads and bannings...beyond the personal agendas and power struggles to have the last word..there has been countless personal discoveries and many have found a voice through their writing and sharing of poetry that other wise might never had been heard...and then there is the inspiration and growth as writers that many have found....then there is the friendships that grew from the reflection we saw in one another's words. As in all aspects of life...the negative seems to get the most attention...and I know your job requires that you have to wade through it all ... but...while some chose to fight or play games of selfish intent...others became poets and peacemakers...many became friends...some even found the other half of their hearts. And? because of this place--a moth got to see the ocean for the first time.   You/PIPS have changed lives and humanity...one poet at a time..

Happy Anniversary to you Ron.....and thank you...for more than you will ever know.
Ringo
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10 posted 05-25-2004 10:40 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Ron- I would, first of all, congratulate you on five years. For a website to be valid after 5 months is rare enough. Five years without major corporate sponsorship, or something to sell at half price is almost impossible.
Secondly, I don't think that you are being fair to yourself, the site, or to the people who inhabit it. You have over 2,000 members, some active, some not and- for the most part- they get along just fine. Getting 20 people into a room and not having personality conflicts is rare.

As for people not understanding each other any more clearly now than they did 5 years ago... I believe that statement is both a littel too hopeful and almost impossible to achieve. You have people from all over the world (USA, Australia, The Netherlands, Canada, The UK, and more) and from all social backgrounds, and all types of governmental beliefs, religious beliefs, social beliefs, and such. It's hard enough to get 200 Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives, school teachers, Marines, bus drivers, bums, whatever in the same room to agree an anything. Getting 2000 people, many of whom have very strong, long set belief systems to see eye to eye is impossible.
Five years ago, the world wasn't in the state of turmoil that it is now. There was no unpopular war for the US to be loved/reviled/who cares about. There was no strangely contested US election for people to argue over the winner/loser/cry baby/thief about. There was no modern instance of Americans being killed wholesale outside of the Middle East. Spaniards weren't being killed in mass quantities. Dance Clubs in indonesia weren't dangerous for anything except drunken brawls and angry boyfriends. Now...

I do believe that, in part, this forum has been able to bring people with vastly divergent views of the world (Misletoe Angel and myself as an example) and has allowed them to share those viewpoints. Sometimes the discussions get heated, and occasionally one side or the other (usually both) has bad info, however those varying viewpoints are respected and DISCUSSED instead of agrued. Examples would be religion, politics, elections, wars, terrorism, movies, music, gay rights... all of which have been topics in the discussion forums.
While it is true that the current conflict that is going on in the Middle East and elsewhere has divided the world, and that (even on here) neither side is giving ground, the same thing happened in your war. Americans were reviled world wide for being in South-East Asia... nowhere more than here at home. And neither side was willing to give ANY acceptance to the other side. Not only that, discussions were mostly severely heated, with name calling, violence, and even the memebers of the military- who did not want to be there, and who had no major agenda other than making it home and not failing the man next to them- were attacked and made to feel as if they were evil. NO war is ever popular or without extremes in opinions.
On the blue pages, those discussions are made with  a sense of respect for the opposition (ok.. not always, but usually), and a willingness to allow the varying viewpoints. There are rules for the debate that are followed (mostly) or the reprecussions are immediate.
You have also provided the world with a safe place to share their thoughts and writings. I belong to a few other writing sites, and yet Passions is the ONLY place that I will allow my kids to read, much less post on. None of the other sites have the support that Passions provides.
Yes, we are still separated by all of those things. To think that one site would change things that drastically in so little amount of time is expecting too much.
Look at the accomplishments, and the progress that HAS been made, and be as proud of yourself as we are of these pages.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

RSWells
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since 06-17-2001
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11 posted 05-25-2004 10:44 PM       View Profile for RSWells   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RSWells

Well you convinced me....I won't be voting for FDR (or Clinton)........

But gee, haven't Democrat presidents bailed us out of every fiscal nightmare Republican administrations have put us in?

I suggest you all adjust to Kerry, things are bad for Bushco and can only get worse. Besides as "poets" would we not prefer a leader who speaks the language (even if in monotone?)

Neither of these parties have the right to run our government but there isn't time to form a viable 3rd party. I recommend all switch to "independant" voters so none of the millionares in D.C. can count you like sheep.
Ringo
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12 posted 05-26-2004 01:13 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

RS- a question... The economy with President Carter was a total fiasco. He was a Democrat... who was it that bailed us out of that??? Another Democrat??? If I remember right, I think it was a Republican.

And since when is the US Economy in trouble now? The stock market is up, housing starts are up, housing purchases are up, minority housing and business ownership is up, the Consumer Price Index is up, consumer confidence is up, unemployment is down, interest rates are down (and being risen to SLOW DOWN the economy). Where in this equasion is the proof that the economy is bad?

A Democratic president DID preside over the economic recovery of the 1930's, however... let's look at that a second...

The "Crash" of 1929 happened only nine months after he took office. It is a well known fact that it takes an average of 2 years for ANY president's economic policies to start taking effect. It is almost an impossibility for a president to take office, get all of his nominees approved by congess, get them up to speed, and passing major changes to the economy to a hostile (opposition) congress in only a few months.
In 1931 the President presented to Congress a program asking for creation of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation to aid business, provide additional help for farmers facing mortgage foreclosures, banking reform, a loan to states for feeding the unemployed, and expansion of public works. However, the economic challenges in Europe (over which he had no control) and the Democratic opponents in Congress who sabataged his initiatives for political gain, didn't make things easier.
In this case, it wasn't the Democrats that bailed us out of the Republican mess, rather the Democratically controlled Congress that may have caused it.
For proof of this, I offer the fact that both Presidents Truman and Eisenhower appointed him to head commissions to re-organize the Executive Branch of the government, and their recommendations helped to spur economic growth.


What language is it that Senator Kerry speaks that President Bush doesn't? And why should I prefer it? The only language that I can see him speaking is political expedience. However, rather than go through it all again here, I refer you to the other threads on this site that I have stated my views on that subject.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

Cpat Hair
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13 posted 05-26-2004 10:32 AM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

"This month we celebrate the Five-Year Anniversary of these forums. Celebrate? Poor choice of words, I guess, for I certainly see little enough to celebrate. Clearly, people understand others no better today than they did five years ago. Honest communication is no less rare. We are no less divided by artificial boundaries like nationality, religion, race or political party. Hatred and distrust still reign over better alternatives. We've grown older, but no wiser."


Ron,
  thank you
and remember please, that social change is always evolutionary in nature, not revolutionary. 5 years is but a drop sir... in the bucket of time...

I celebrate the fact that there are enough people with ideals to continue to endeavor to create and maintain places where we as flawed beings can discuss, learn, and sometimes simply stomp our feet in two year old like behavior.. so.. I celebrate your courage and your convictions sir, and try to find in myself the qualities to emulate them.

Ron
Michelle_loves_Mike
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14 posted 05-26-2004 02:55 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

Kinda funny how the replys got way away from what I gathered was the topic at hand,,,did i miss something?
Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Sunshine
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Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


15 posted 05-26-2004 03:32 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Two points:

First point:  Yes, it would have been better had Toe cited his remarks with quotes since they were not his own.

Here is some additional reading on the history of SS:
  http://www.ssa.gov/history/fdrstmts.html#signing

Second point:  Ron, both 'Deer and Cpat made some good points in their comments.  A lot of us have some understanding of what you wished to have transpire with the creation of this website; several hundred/thousands more of us have no clear idea, but are tremendously grateful that we have located a website where, even with a few altercations now and then, generally in discussion, that there still is "this place" where we can "come home", hang up our hat, coat, take off our shoes, and enjoy our family of friends.

I know it becomes irksome, let alone tiresome, to forever be the "bouncer".  Yet, a lot of ideas are exchanged, a lot of ideals swung to another side; we are forever being given different ways in which to alter our viewpoints, or stand by our own values and mores.  And in the rarest of exceptions, we've not waged war on any other member.  If we do come to a stand-off, we try to wish our adversary a good future, and go off in another direction.

Yes, I know...I always try to see the silver lining.  Well, Passions IS my own personal silver lining, in so many ways.

Thank you Ron, for putting up with your houseguests.

Not A Poet
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since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


16 posted 05-26-2004 04:00 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Yes, thank you very much, Ron. No, PIP is not perfect, as pointed out recently in another thread. But I don't know of any community that is. It may not have satisfied all your original expectations but times change and realities evolve. I don't expect you could ever have anticipated the growth and diversity of your membership. That alone foretells of a changing environment. You can be damn proud of your cyber home. I know I speak for the vast majority of us in saying that I have truly enjoyed being here for over four of its five years. I have grown in many ways also.

Thanks,
Pete
Toerag
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Posts 5839
Ala bam a


17 posted 05-26-2004 05:18 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

I've received several emails requesting I delete this post, from friends, many that supported what I posted but asking I delete, and, being I don't really give a rat's butt, I am deleting...

[This message has been edited by Toerag (05-26-2004 08:19 PM).]

Christopher
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18 posted 05-26-2004 07:11 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

For what my 2 cents may be worth, Toe, I don't think it has a thing to do with WHAT you believe, or the TOPIC you chose. I think, rather, it's more likely about 2 main things... 1: Copying something word-for-word and pasting it in here. I think we all know by now that's technically plaigerism and as such, a no-no. 2: The tone. If you'd have approached this topic without a condescending attitude and a closing statement that basically says "anyone who believes in democrats are idiots", it'd would have probably been fine. We've managed to discuss MANY things in these forums responsibly and with respect to others. From gay marriage to politics to religion - all hot topics that somehow managed to be responsibly explored without demeaning others. This post can't say that. Instead, it's wholly one sided (because republicans always make wise choices and have no black marks on their record book?) and insulting to people as a whole. In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether it's a discussion or poetry, there's no place for those instances of attitude here.
Ringo
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19 posted 05-26-2004 07:32 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Christopher- Although your comments were well spoken, I submit that they were a might off-base. It was not wholly one-sided. RSWells took the Democratic side of life. Granted, he was the only one, however this thread isn't all that long.
Also, there were many other topics that were discussed that were not quietly and respectfully debated. There is one on the pages now that fit that bill. There haev also been members who have been banned for their part in discussions that got... "snippy".

As for toe's part, he did inadvertantly plagerize (sp?), however I don't feel that he was condescending or that he was making the statement you feel he was. And it's not just because I happen to agree with him on most issues. I also hold Noah in that line, and he and i NEVER agree.
Just my thoughts.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

Toerag
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since 07-29-99
Posts 5839
Ala bam a


20 posted 05-26-2004 08:29 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

First of all..thanks Ringo...whether or not you agree with all I wrote on my now deleted post...I do appreciate your reply...and Chris....I don't know what you've read...or where I called anyone that would vote for a democrat an idiot?...I don't understand why any one would vote for Kerry, but never called anyone an idiot..I stated that it was sad how many people have been so easily misled about Social Security and how the Republicans were going to cut this, medicare benefits etc., in fact, in Detroit prior to the Bush/Gore election, house to house door hangers were spread thru out many parts stating this exact thing...and many older folks were in tears...and plagerize..or however in the hell you spell it?....It wasn't meant to be...and, I think you know it wasn't...but I understand more now than I did before I came to the discussion side of this forum..and think Balladeer hit the nail on the head with his post...and,.if it distresses and disappoints Ron that much perhaps poetry is all that should be offered..Afterall, most wars and such are because of religion, politics etc...(Not oil as some liberals professed this time)....I've been here for many years...think Ron's created a wonderful site...I just now learned however to stay away from some of these forums...
inot2B
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21 posted 05-26-2004 08:48 PM       View Profile for inot2B   Email inot2B   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inot2B

I will not make anymore comments except for the poetry section from now on. If this is just for poetry then Mr. Ron make a rule that nothing will be permitted except poetry & comments about poetry.
Ringo
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22 posted 05-26-2004 09:01 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

I am actually a little distressed to hear members saying that they are going to be staying away from the discussion forums. By censoring yourselves, then the opposition (whichever side that might be) has won, and you hve given them too much control and power over your life and your thoughts. And I say that with the full rememberance of what I said to another member this morning on that same subject.

With very few exceptions, I actually enjoyi seeing what various people have to say about the world in general. It gives me, as a writer, a bigger view of the world than I could ever get by mere research alone, or by discussing with the people in my neck. It also gives me ideas about characters, and such. Plus, I am just crazy enough to be interested in how people think in general.

I hope that the two of you will reconsider and not deprive the world of your thoughts, however, I understand if you don't.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

Christopher
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Purgatorial Incarceration


23 posted 05-26-2004 10:14 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

blame the "woes of the world" on a specific party, call those who might believe in certain things gullible, add words like theiving and lying, and i hardly think it qualifies as a non-inflammatory post (i was pointing at the initial topic, Ringo, not the thread as a whole)... and i think it's fair to infer that you're suggesting anyone who'd support any of the above an idiot? i believe that you didn't realize it was plaigerism, Toe, but seeing that it is, well that's how it goes?

don't get me wrong on any of this - note i haven't stated my views. for what it's worth, i look at the upcoming election not as a choice of the best canidates, but rather a choice of lesser evils. Kerry, Bush, we could sit here all day typing in negative things about both personally and even more about their respective parties... and find that at the end of the day, we're all just stumbling along, hoping that we make the right choice for us and our country.

to me, as a person, it's irritating to have someone bash on another's best effort, when their's are just the same; best efforts that don't always pan out gold.
Not A Poet
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Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


24 posted 05-26-2004 11:00 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Now Christopher, I don't see how you can say "best effort" in a discussion of politicians. The only "best efforts" put out by politicians is to keep their own party in power. I can't say how sick I am of both major parties without doing it in MC, BCD even. Let's bring back the Bullmoose Party

 
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