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Passions in Poetry

Another Democrat For President?...God Help Us..Especially Kerry

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Balladeer
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25 posted 05-26-2004 11:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This conversation is making me flip my Whig!!
Christopher
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26 posted 05-27-2004 12:12 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

actually, pete, i wasn't talking about the politicians... rather, those voting (or not) for them
serenity blaze
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27 posted 05-27-2004 07:31 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Yanno what?

I'm so sick of all of this, I think I may actually vote.

how's THAT for frightening?
Sunshine
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28 posted 05-27-2004 08:32 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

The fact that you choose to vote is the best thing I've heard all day.  Albeit it's early...
Toerag
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29 posted 05-27-2004 02:20 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

I wrote what I wrote, as was sent to me....I've viewed the website Ron posted.....(in such a kind way for all to see)....and it does prove some of what I wrote was untrue...but not all...but look at Carter's record, Johnson's record, Clinton immorality, lying and stealing...and I guess I just took it for the truth...it did stand to reason....Ron has a wonderful site here, but seems to think he's going to change the world when he added these additional sites...sorry bud, nobody can do that....but you have a fine site regardless...I admire you for what you've offered us, though I don't believe you in some respects, as in, You would hold anyone with spite if they saved you from torture and unbelievable atrocities if you were a POW....that's just not true...I don't think you're superman....and even if you were...if they held kryptonite against your perfect body, you would beg for help or mercy...My comrades and I have had S. Vietnamese, fellow Americans kiss our feet before we could stop them for their freedom...and you would too...regardless of what you say from the leisure of your home....it just ain't so with any human being I've ever come in contact with...I'm not calling you a liar my fellow vet....just a dreamer....Peace..vote from your heart....and remember one thing...Iraq was not for oil..(regardless of the liberal media)..though should be used to pay the expense, (but you can't put a price on American Human lives)...and if Johnson was President, we'd lose this war too....because, as he stated: in regards to the Hanoi Trail, (as we called it)..."We will not kill women and children to accomplish our goals,(THOSE BRAVE CONG'S HUMAN SHIELDS), even at the cost of American lives".....But I know many a soldiers, with tears in their eyes that shot kids running up to them with grenades for candy, because our spiritually motivated enemy taught them the GI's would reward them....sad, but it's the truth of war.....but for a reality check...anyone that disagrees with my thoughts...don't do what I did....look it up..investigate...check what the Democrats did as far as taxes, give away programs, and SSN or their ideas for such....then decide..and if you've worked your arse off, paid for college, worked seven days a week, you shouldn't be entitled to the Social Security you paid in, just be penalized with more taxes.....My last post here on these pages....Hope I didn't offend anyone...but if I did, remember, I'm Toerag...I don't care about a whole lot of anything these days....
Oh...one more thing Ron...there's nothing wrong with being a dreamer...if it wasn't for dreamers, we would be riding horses to work, reading under candle lite....and wouldn't have antibiotics...nor your site...

[This message has been edited by Toerag (05-27-2004 03:58 PM).]

Larry C
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30 posted 05-27-2004 03:00 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

I'm with Balladeer I'm Whigged out!

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

*Alli4000*
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31 posted 05-29-2004 11:57 PM       View Profile for *Alli4000*   Email *Alli4000*   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for *Alli4000*

I know I'm only 13 and can't really vote or anything but I do know what's going on in the world.  Look at what Bush is doing to the economy and the whole war in Iraq.  One of my mom's good friends died over there.  I think Kerry should be the next president and so does my family.  Bush has been one of the worst presidents and so was his father.
Denise
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32 posted 05-30-2004 06:31 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The economy is better than it has been in years, even for the "financially challenged" people like me. Taxes are down, unemployment is down, consumer confidence and spending are up, new housing construction is up, and first time home ownership is up, particularly among the lower income folks.

There are more good things happening in Iraq than bad, not to downplay the tragic loss of life and injuries of those in the armed services, whom we can never repay for their sacrifices on our behalf. I think Balladeer posted that earlier, not sure which thread. And it's true. Straight from the mouths of those who are over there and know all that is going on, even though it isn't being widely reported here in our infamous 'conservative press'.

Despite Bush's shortcomings, I have more confidence in him than in Kerry to do what I believe needs to be done for the security of our country, which I think is the most important issue in this election year. Even if the economy weren't on the mend, I think homeland security should be our top priority at this time.

Midnitesun
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33 posted 05-30-2004 10:46 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

I'll add my two cents worth. I've grown both older and wiser since joining the Pips family, while the world's politicians seem to have gotten stupider by the minute. Perhaps they should put down the war games manuals and read poetry? Yet even here, we often find ourselves in battle. But hopefully we will all still be at the round table tomorrow, sharing our thoughts about how to achieve unity and peace on this, the only liveable planet in this universe.
Denise
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34 posted 05-30-2004 11:42 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Maybe we can wait until the Islamists put down their weapons before we put down ours?

It would really be nice if they came to their senses and adopted a civilized attitude of 'live and let live' and let us and the rest of the world alone. I don't see it happening, though, unfortunately.
Midnitesun
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35 posted 05-30-2004 04:41 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

So, the Israelis can wait till all the Arab peoples put their weapons down, and vice versa? And with gangs, the Crips can wait till the Bloods are quiet? and terrorists worldwide can wait till the roots of terror no longer exist? Does this mean we humans are doomed forever to tit-for-tat world responses, always using aggression to stop aggression?

Toe, I'm wondering if you have completely forgotten Tricky Dicky when you question the honesty and moral standings of Democrats?
Balladeer
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36 posted 05-30-2004 05:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

As someone once said, Kacey, if the Palestinians put down their weapons there will be peace. If the Jews put down their weapons there will be no Israel. If you don't believe that then please point out the suicide schools in Isreal where children are being taougth to blow themselves up for their God and country. Your comparison of Crypts and Bloods is out there.


Also, pointing fingers at others does not absove responsibilities....Clinton tried that with Thomas Jefferson
Titia Geertman
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37 posted 05-30-2004 06:59 PM       View Profile for Titia Geertman   Email Titia Geertman   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Titia Geertman's Home Page   View IP for Titia Geertman


Politics and religion are supposed to bring safety, peace and comfort to all people 'round the world, but unfortunately they've only managed to bring insecurity, war and discomfort sofar. I wonder why.
Only thing I can come up with is:

It all comes down to Power and the 'I am right and you are wrong' thought, isn't it?

I have a proposition
To all blue pages Pippers
If you want to argue
Put on your easy slippers

Settle down in a cosy chair
Feet up high, a drink in reach
Try to hear the words being said
Try to value the value in each

I know, I'm sketching Utopia
'Cause some won't play along
But don't say 'it is' or 'must'
It's to Power them words belong

And if you think 'that silly Dutchie'
Doesn't know what she's talking about
You're probably right but say if softly
Don't yell it out to me too loud

If you want to disagree
Disagree in rhyme
'Cause poetry is first issue here
Has been all the time

I'm off, before you throw my two dimes back at me

Titia

Like scattered leaves...my words will flow

Toerag
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Ala bam a


38 posted 05-31-2004 07:42 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Titia...could ya throw in another thirty cents?..I need to call Balladeer to borrow another $200 bucks?
Denise
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39 posted 05-31-2004 07:15 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I wouldn’t characterize it as tit for tat, Kacey. It takes both parties in a conflict to agree to put down their weapons. It will do us no good to cease our activities when the opposing side has no such intention, no matter what we do. It would be suicide. We have to defeat them, period.

The Islamists have been attacking US interests off and on for over 30 years (if you don't count the problems that Thomas Jefferson had with their pillaging vessels and slaughtering ships' crews on the high seas during his presidency) long before we went to war, and they've been attacking Israel since its inception.

Balladeer is right. Additionally, the PLO's charter calls for the destruction of Israel; still to this day their objective is "to drive them into the sea." It's never been changed or amended since the PLO was formed. Funny, though, the 'deified' UN and some others don't seem to have a problem with that, but do seem to have a problem with Israel having nuclear weapons for its defense, the only free and democratic society in the Middle East, surrounded by avowed enemies. Arafat has had many opportunities for peace. He's proven that he would rather continue blowing people up.

He is the real enemy of the Palestinian people. He keeps them in poverty and feeds them a steady diet of victimization and the glory of dying in suicide attacks, instead of making something worthwhile of that society by implementing peace and utilizing his vast wealth for their betterment instead of for the terrorizing of Israel. The ball is in his court and it always has been.  

I've read comments here and elsewhere stating that Israel is the aggressor and oppressor. That's just not the case. One or more of the countries that surround it initiated every war that they’ve been engaged in. They have always been the one attacked, not the other way around. And now they have been put on the defensive again due to the intifada on its citizens, just as we have been, and have acted accordingly. But when they, and we, act in ways to attempt to ensure the safety and future of our respective societies from barbaric attacks, they, and we, are disparaged as the aggressors by the real aggressors and those who support them.

And if anyone wants to try to convince me that I'm wrong about Arafat and the PLO, be my guest, by all means, but you'll first have to show me that they've changed their mission statement. That's the only thing that will convince me that they are interested in peace. Absent that, any arguments are meaningless.

Peace should always be our aim, of course, and I'm all for it, but peace at any price is not peace. Peace with freedom is the only kind worth having. Freedom isn't free, we sometimes have to fight to maintain it. As Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death." And as Benjamin Franklin said, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

That being said, I wish you all peace. The real deal though, not the counterfeit.
Ron
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40 posted 05-31-2004 11:07 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Arafat has had many opportunities for peace.

quote:
Peace should always be our aim, of course, and I'm all for it, but peace at any price is not peace.

quote:
And if anyone wants to try to convince me that I'm wrong about Arafat and the PLO, be my guest, by all means, but you'll first have to show me that they've changed their mission statement.

And what is our mission statement regarding Al Qaeda, Denise? Seems to me it is strikingly similar.

I am certainly not going to argue in defense of the PLO. But if I was, I would probably try to support it with actual historical data and relevant facts. Your post, Denise, offers nothing but assumptions. Why should Arafat accept peace at any price when you proudly declare you are not? Why should the PLO be willing to live with their Jewish neighbors when we are certainly unwilling to consider establishing diplomatic relations with Al Qaeda?

Doesn't anyone have more than sound-bites cribbed from their favorite commenter? It's bad enough that no one seems to be questioning their assumptions, but most don't seem to even recognize when they have nothing but assumptions to present as evidence. Right or wrong can't even be argued until people actually are willing to think again.


Denise
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41 posted 06-01-2004 12:23 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Ron,

The PLO Charter speaks for itself, I'm not making assumptions or quoting my favorite pundit, it's something that I have been following closely for years, and if you or anyone else cares to check out some historical facts, I'd recommend an excellent book called From Time Immemorial by a renowned investigative reporter, Joan Peters. It's jammed full with historical facts. It's a hefty volume, but well worth studying. It's definitely not light reading.  

I don't think that asking Arafat to allow Israel to exist and to agree to peacefully co-exist with her should be considered too high a price for him to pay for peace.

How does one have diplomatic relations with the likes of Al Qaeda? Have they ever even hinted at the fact that they would like to have an open dialogue to discuss their grievances against us or the rest of the world? I don't recall it if they have. All I remember are hostage-takings, bombings and suicide attacks and airplanes flying into buildings killing innocent civilians. There can be no comparisons drawn between us and Al Qaeda. None whatsoever.


bbent
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42 posted 06-01-2004 03:34 AM       View Profile for bbent   Email bbent   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit bbent's Home Page   View IP for bbent

sure been alot of topics covered in this thread.personaly even though this is primaraly a poetry site i'm glad to hear the opinions of otheres.i think people need and want to voice there thoughts on todays society and am willing to tolorate listening to others in order to voice mine.thought that's what america was about.i also think that privaledge here at pips has help people to accept and in some cases even understand todays wack world.ain't no different than it was thousands of years ago.human natures never been altered through political or religious wars.the masses are still a bunch of sheep generally willing to follow the highest bidder.what's in in for me?...personally bubba's big adventure reminds me of another yellow haired george who set out to disipline and educate americas hethen ignorant native population..heck,maybe a christian middle east,dependent on western welfare ain't such a bad idea.while were at it we can forbid them there evil hashish and opiat smoking vices ,introduce them to the joys of alcoholism and build big casinos to enjoy all that so called oil money in.Mc'Ds and coke for all.it ain't the politicians people,it's us to blame and seems to me a change in myself might be the only difference i or anybody can make.

Live like it's your last day...
Dance like nobody's watching...
Love like you've never been hurt...

[This message has been edited by bbent (06-01-2004 05:31 AM).]

Ron
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43 posted 06-01-2004 04:14 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

The comparison wasn't between us and Al Qaeda, Denise, but between Israel and Al Qaeda. You think Arafat should allow Israel to exist in peace? Maybe we should then allow Al Qaeda to exist in peace.

Of course, there's a whole lot wrong with my analogy, not the least of which is the British government hasn't given Al Qaeda our whole West Coast. And, yea, there are quite a few other differences, too. Really important ones. It's a bad analogy, used only to counter an equally bad generality.

Again, I am definitely not defending the PLO, but rather arguing against your gross generalities and unstated assumptions. You're willing to condemn Arafat with absolutely no support for your stance, simply because it's what you've heard said over and over again. What do you think you would have heard had you lived your entire life in Jordan? You make it sound as if the PLO fights only because they are evil and enjoy violence, which is just plain naďve. They have reasons, too, and while you don't have to accept their reasons, trying to just ignore them serves no useful purpose. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's just the father of more ignorance.

Why should Israel be given the west coast of what was once Palestine? How would you feel if you were forced to move out of Pennsylvania because that part of our country was given to someone else? What arguments can be offered to convince you that you should live in peace with those who took your home away from you? You are ignoring some pretty fundamental questions, Denise, when you hit us with a, "Oh, he's just wrong and should accept things and move on."

Your conclusions may well be right, Denise. That's not my point. You've just given us no evidence in your posts that they're your conclusions. As stated, and especially as a response to Kacey's points, it just sounds like propaganda.
Midnitesun
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44 posted 06-01-2004 10:11 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

"i think people need and want to voice there thoughts on todays society and am willing to tolorate listening to others in order to voice mine.thought that's what america was about"

Exactly, bbent. And that is what we are doing in this thread, hopefully with total honesty.
To respond to some other comments;
After living in Israel for a year, I do understand the delicate balancing act the Israeli government must do daily. I also remember many Israeli and Arab friends I worked alongside daily who did not support the political and social agendas that perpetuate the ME conflicts. That's not to say everyone agrees or is willing to stop the killing. I never saw so much bickering anywhere as I saw in the ME, except maybe here in this country.
As for worldwide TERRORISM, it is far more deeply rooted than who owns/controls the oil barrels, who controls one city in the 'holy' lands. To blame all of ISLAM is to ignore CHRISTIANITY's historical misdeeds, and to ignore the war-mongering attitudes of some of Israel's political leaders. I cannot believe some can be so blind to the truths as to still believe the good ole USA is saving the world so that everyone can have their fair share of Earth's bounty.  
I know I'm rambling a bit here, but spent half the night repairing stalls that testosterone-filled stallions kicked in. But it's part of being human, I guess, to be imperfect in my understanding and replies, to not have all the answers.  
Denise
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45 posted 06-01-2004 09:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Ron,

Believe it or not, I'm not parroting something I've heard over and over again. I'm very familiar with both sides of the issue. I'm not ignoring any fundamental questions. I have put myself in the shoes of both parties. I am presenting my convictions on the issue after having considered all the available information.

Again, I'd highly recommend From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters for anyone interested in the historical and political facts. It is the most in-depth, thorough, treatment that I've read on the issue to date.



Ron
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46 posted 06-01-2004 10:11 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I'm very familiar with both sides of the issue. I'm not ignoring any fundamental questions.

You're certainly not addressing them in here, Denise. Not when you present simplistic "us good, them bad" characterizations that only serve to dehumanize and not explain. It may be comforting to think Arafat "would rather continue blowing people up," but it's not realistic. Believe it or not, your enemies are usually motivated by the same things as you are. That, after all, is precisely the root of most conflict.
Balladeer
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47 posted 06-01-2004 10:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Why should the PLO be willing to live with their Jewish neighbors when we are certainly unwilling to consider establishing diplomatic relations with Al Qaeda?

Ron, I would be interested in knowing your thoughts of how we would go about establishing diplomatic relations with Al Qaeda....and why we should be willing to. Do you consider it feasible to extend diplomatic relations to such a group...and why?

Ron
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48 posted 06-02-2004 01:35 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

No, Mike, I don't consider it feasible. Or warranted. The question, though, would perhaps be better asked of Denise. The way we view Al Qaeda isn't all that different, after all, from the way the PLO views Israel. If it's not feasible for us, why should it be feasible for them?
Midnitesun
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49 posted 06-02-2004 02:11 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

http://www.jfjfp.org/campaigns.htm

please read this article from  
Jews for Justice for Palestinians
and Jews For Peace: http://ga3.org/jvfp/home.html
Please don't limit your knowledge to the major media presentations or politician's spittal.
Find out what the PEOPLE are up to in these countries. I hope the above links will help you see beyond the walls.

 
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