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Passions in Poetry

Does anybody take responsibility anymore?

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Aenimal
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0 posted 05-14-2004 05:04 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

While the Iraqi abuse scandal is an outright disgrace on all fronts, I'd like to rant about Private No Class Lynndie England. Lynndie was quick to point the finger at senior personnel claiming she was ordered to participate. She also felt justified that their actions, intended to put psychological pressure on the Iraqi prisoners to talk, were working.

Now new photos have been found with Lynndie performing sex acts with numerous fellow soldiers and guards in private and in front of the prisoners. What's her spin now? Was she ordered to take part in that as well? Jesus, everybody's a victim! Take some @#&$^$$ responsibilty for your actions or just shut your mouth.

side note: my skin crawls at the sight of  Rumsfield, everytime he speaks i swear i can see his tongue dart like the slithering serpent he is. disgusting.
Toerag
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1 posted 05-14-2004 05:34 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Yanno Aenimal...I don't agree with everything you write over here...and I don't dislike Rumsfield...but I do agree with you about this no class "Ho".....I'm surprised she was with guys however..did you see her interview last night?...Her voice is deeper than mine...(and I can hit a low "g"....not to be confused with "g" spot but I can hit that too,)..and she looks like a linebacker for Southern Cal...
hush
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2 posted 05-14-2004 05:57 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Ah, how classy we Americans are. One of our soldiers turns out to be abusive- it's okay, just crack a lesbian joke and get on with it.
Toerag
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3 posted 05-14-2004 06:00 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

No...not cracking anything, but I agree with animal...she's not the sweetest thing on earth...and she is truly passing the buck...get on with it?..Yep, get on with the prosecution...nobody needs to be treated inhumanely....Hush....quit trying to fight me gal...I just like confrontation and starting trouble and writing bad poetry and was getting bored with my bad poetry?...LOL...have a good weekend
Balladeer
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4 posted 05-14-2004 06:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Aenimal, the devil is putting on his overcoat because I agree with you completely. These low-lifes have no out. The pics say everything. The only thing they can do is admit their actions or try to pass it off to superior officers. Sadly, they are all choosing the latter - I would guess one could thank their lawyers for that. One only needs to see the looks on their faces, their clowning around, enjoying their action, mugging for the cameras to know they were doing it on their own, like naughty little children. Too bad they are not man, or woman, enough to simply admit it.

They learned well from the O.J. trial....
Janet Marie
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5 posted 05-14-2004 09:47 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

taking responsibility for ones actions....in the military????
youre kidding right?

http://staaamp.org/docs/lessons_learned.pdf


With a history like this...
how can we even be shocked that this has happened?....theres been decades of mistreatment-- on OUR OWN by OUR OWN ..so the fact that they would do it the "enemy" should come as no surprise.


And I find such irony that the central media target to be villified and become the scapegoat is a woman, considering the treatment females have endured at the hands of "fellow soldiers" and officers. Tailhook ring a bell???

And then there is the mistreament of gays in the military by our own...though I hesitate to mention that, in light of already previously made insults.

Ron
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6 posted 05-14-2004 10:09 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Take some responsibilty for your actions or just shut your mouth.

I don't think any of the politicians out there are likely to take your advice, Raph, and more's the pity. It could quite literally result in a bit more peace and quiet in the world if they did. Heaven help us, we could use a little bit of both.

I haven't been following the hullabaloo, and this thread is the first time I even heard the name Lynndie England. So, I don't have a lot of opinion on the specifics. I have a lot of opinion on the generalities, however, and especially with Toe's obviously irrelevant disparagements. I'm surprised we didn't hear, on good authority, that Lynndie's momma wears combat boots, too. Why address issues, after all, when grade school insults are so much easier. (Interestingly, men only seems to use the word ho when a woman sleeps with another man. When she sleeps with him, it's surely true love. Why is that, I wonder?)

I don't know, Raph, last I checked walking on water wasn't a prerequisite for whistle-blowing. Or for much of anything else, fortunately. Of course, it has to work the other way around, too. Whistle-blowing doesn't eliminate or even diminish guilt, either.

The issue shouldn't be whether England, or anyone else involved, is pure as the driven snow. The only thing that should matter is whether they're telling the truth. Everything else, from sexual conduct to sexual orientation to how ugly they are in the morning, is just camouflage.
Aenimal
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7 posted 05-14-2004 10:16 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

The first thing i'd like to do is seperate myself from Toe's comments, Toe i like you and all, but there's no way i'm being linked with that. How do you call her a Ho and let off the male soldiers engaged in the same acts. Double standard, theyre vile creatures the whole lot.

Balladeer you're right they are passing the buck. However, there's is absolutely no doubt that the stench of this reaches through the ranks. The soldiers had a choice, to do the right thing, but they didn't. I'm not laying the blame on her or them, I simply say take the responsibility for their personal involvment.

Janet nobody is taking responsibility, I limited my rant today not because I'm buying the media hype against England but she specifically p-ed me off taking the victim route to wash her hands clean, when there are photos of her performing lewd acts.

But I agree with you completely, this isn't anything new regarding the US military. My Lai anyone? Neither is it new for the government to pass it off and find themselves a scapegoat. The stench of this rises right up to Rumsfield and it's an absolute travesty that he hasn't resigned or been removed.

Ron again, seperate my comments from Toe's. England specifically enrages me because her and her family claimed she was forced into posing. The lewd acts are not a simply matter of her sexual history, I couldn't care less about her sexual history, it's that the sexual acts were performed IN FRONT of the prisoners. That's my beef, she has the gall to claim her involvment was forced when photos now reveal she was all too game participating in deplorable acts.
Aenimal
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8 posted 05-14-2004 10:22 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Every Picture Tells a Story, Don't It?
So, Who's to Blame?
By VIRGINIA TILLEY

"Secretary Rumsfeld has apologized. Or rather, he read a statement full of apology, now dutifully quoted in the media. Nothing in the rest of his testimony or his bearing, however, indicated the slightest remorse. Instead, with his usual nasal petulance, he lashed out against any suggestion that he had neglected to take proper action, waving impatiently at the time-line of military investigations. He snapped insultingly that a three-line press release in January had "informed the whole world," so what more do you want? (His face went blank when one Senator returned quietly, "You didn't inform us.") He protested his incapacity to follow every little crisis, waving papers about "eight-thousand court-martials"--the only reliable statistic he bothered to bring. When did he inform the president? Well, come on. He had so many important things to discuss in those talks with the president, he could hardly be expected to remember when he had discussed the little matter of rampant torture in the US occupation's main prison. The real culprit, then, in his view? Digital cameras. For without them, the process would have ground on normally, through the months, and resolved itself somehow, while Iraqis lay naked and ridiculed on concrete floors.

"So who's to blame? The generals at his side ..."

Please read the rest of the copyrighted story at Counterpunch

[Edited to add link to story - Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (05-14-2004 11:14 PM).]

Balladeer
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9 posted 05-14-2004 11:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

All of this may be right but I still see a lot of overkill here, almost like the sky is falling. I see pathetic individuals doing this on their own. Seems like everyone who talks about it makes it grow another dimension until the finished product has it reaching all the way to 1600. I seew a lot of political manuevering at work. To blame a Secretary of Defense for actions performed late at night in a room half-way around the world is pretty unprecedented, I think. Media frenzy comes into play, I believe. I would refer once again to my "bad priest" analogy. Imagine a priest being found guilty of abuse. One can go from there and ask if they were given the impression it was acceptable by their superiors. Were there classes of "non-molestation" training? Were there signs, "Do not Molest" in their offices? Was their Bishop aware of their activities? How could it be going on without their knowledge? What about the Cardinals? Surely with all of the cases reported, with priests being moved around like checkers to remove them from parrishes where molestation occured, the Pope would certainly have to know something. Should there be a call to remove the Pope? See where this could go with a little zealous enthusiasm? I see similarities...

The main thing that some are seeming to overlook is that this was all uncovered by the military itself. The military found out about it, found the pictures, wrote the reports and sent the entire package to the Pentagon where it was unfortunately compromised by an enterprising news agency before it arrived. The question is this...if this were something that the military directed and condoned, why would they be the ones to discover and report it? If you cannot answer that question, you cannot implicate them with any degree of rationality.
Balladeer
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10 posted 05-14-2004 11:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

BTW, Aenimal, the article you displayed of VT speaks for itself. One cannot read that article without knowing full well that it is an extremely prejudiced personal piece of writing. The insults and innuendos are obvious. It is a far cry from a professional article written by a responsible journalist and, as such, loses any right to become a good example.
Aenimal
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11 posted 05-15-2004 12:02 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
The question is this...if this were something that the military directed and condoned, why would they be the ones to discover and report it? If you cannot answer that question, you cannot implicate them with any degree of rationality


Oh c'mon Balladeer? Why? Because it was already leaked, it's called damage control and spin doctoring, it's in manuals everywhere.


Balladeer, Virginia Tilley is an Associate Professor of Political Science. I'd much rather read the opinion of a student of Political science than filtered mainstream media tripe.

Sorry Ron didn't mean to make any copyrioght infringments, I thought adding her name and credentials would be enough. Thanks for the link edit I figured people were more likely to read it here than make the effort to switch to the site.
Balladeer
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12 posted 05-15-2004 12:39 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Aenimal, with all due respect, you must have more information on this than I have. From what I know it had been leaked AFTER the report had been made. If you have something to show that the leak happened before the reports were initiated, I'd be happy to see it.

As fas as Ms. Tilley is concerned, regardless of her titles, anyone who writes an article with the following:

"Instead, with his usual nasal petulance, he lashed out against any suggestion that he had neglected to take proper action, waving impatiently at the time-line of military investigations"

"He snapped insultingly...."
"His face went blank..."
"the only reliable statistic he bothered to bring.."
"he could hardly be expected to remember when he had discussed the little matter of rampant torture in the US occupation's main prison"

...is certainly not showing any signs of professional, unbiased reporting. That should be obvious to anyone..She decided to paint a slur article so she did....her right, I suppose. To protray it as a valid news story is reaching....
Aenimal
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13 posted 05-15-2004 01:46 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Balladeer a misunderstanding, when you said the military reported it I assumed you were referring to their admission of the event rather than the official report. Still, it does little to clear the fact that superiors were in the know, and were in charge.

While it's not a reflection of the entire military or action in Iraq, enough people in high enough positions are involved to cause outrage and concern about leadership within the lines of command.

As for Tilley's words, the facts still stand and she offers valid points regardless of her obvious disdain for Rumsfield who is, quite frankly, beneath contempt anyway. It's an editorial, not an article, therefor prone to emotion.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (05-15-2004 04:35 AM).]

Goldenrose
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14 posted 05-15-2004 06:49 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

I didnt really want to get involved in this too much..i certainly dont want to get on peoples nerves here..but if the people in charge of the countries invloved in the Iraqi war had listened to the United Nations Hans Blix....they would never have gone to war in the first place....so using cause and effect..the soldiers would never have been put in this position to abuse Iraqi's....the americans and british would not have the casualities of war.etc...you could go on and on...after all mr Blix said then and still says now the war in Iraq was ILLEGAL....therefore the abusers..from both Britain and America..must take responsibilty for their actions....this could have been avoided ..just by not going to war in the first place.....and now they want the UN the clear up the mess that they made....by sending UN troops in!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just my take on things here you understand..i am just saying what i believe...

I say there should be NO WARS EVER....

Peace and love and rock n roll is the only true path.....

Goldenrose.

''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''-  Dalai Lama

hush
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15 posted 05-15-2004 10:49 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Toerag, I'm not trying to fight with you... but you honestly said a really horrible thing that I couldn't let slide. Don't you see that?

I think the excuse that really irritates me the most in this whole situation is the 'lack of training' excuse. So... how is it that without being trained to do these disgusting thing, the soldiers just fell onto it by nature? The argument basically says 'Hey! I was born an awful person!'

I think it's interesting that they used a girl as the main scapegoat. My dad, while being disgusted at her actions, also seems to be underthe impression that Rummy is hiding behind the actions of 'a little girl' his daughter's age.I guess my biggest problem with Rumsfeld right now is a matter of accountability. No, it's not his fault, I really don't think he condoned this and probably had no clue what was going on until the story broke... but the point is, he should ahve. It's his job to know things like that, and that's a pretty big thing NOT to know about.
Toerag
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16 posted 05-15-2004 11:01 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Yea, you have a point...how many girls were involved?...One that I know of...and several guys...it is rediculous..have a good weekend
Ringo
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17 posted 05-15-2004 11:33 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Hush- I only have ONE bit of issue to discuss with you. You said that Secretary Rumsfeld should have known what was going on. Breaking away from the priest analogy that is being used elsewhere... Locally, we had a teacher that was verbally abusing the kids, and actually went as far as to pick a fight with a student one day. This teacher shoved the student, and denegraded him in front of the students, and when the student stood up and held his ground, the teacher hit him. Should the County Director of education be held accountable for that ONE teacher's actions? Keep in mind that there are 5 school districts, with an average of 4 schools per district. Put an average of, say, 40 teachers in each school. That makes 800 teachers, plus all of the support staff (secretaries, janitors, aides, nurses, etc.) How is it that the man (actually it's a woman) at the top should be able to know what is going on in that ONE teacher's class room??
The Department Of Defense (as you already know) is much larger. There are 5 branches of the miliraty (the Coast Guard, normally under the Transportation Secretary becomes Defense in times of war), Reserve components, National Guard, Air National Guard, and civilian support staff that he is responsible for on all seven continents. I am not completely sure how many people that is, however it definately in the multiple of millions. How is it that someone who is responsible for that many people, and who is 8 or 9 levels removed from the night shift at one prison should know when fewer than 10 people are screwing up? With that many levels of command, with at least half of them being flag level, and with military action taking place in at least 3 different areas of the world, why should he concern himself with 10 people on one shift at one prison in one of the countries?
I feel it is severely unfair, and a little self-serving for everyone to think he should have known what was going on.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

Aenimal
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18 posted 05-15-2004 04:07 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Months ago Rumsfield appeared on CBS' 60 minutes. With regards to the capture of Saddam Hussein reporter Lesley Stahl asked whether torture would ever be an option if information wasn not forthcoming. Rumsfield replied:

"You know, to even raise the word torture in terms of how the United States military would treat this person seems to me is a unfortunate. We don't torture people and here's a man who has tortured to death tens of thousands of people, conducted rape and brutality the likes of which would be difficult to find a more vicious and brutal dictator in our adult lifetimes. And I just told you he would be treated according to the Geneva Conventions and to suggest that any one would be engaged in torture or conduct inconsistentent with the Geneva Convention seems to me isn't on the mark at all."


Christopher
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19 posted 05-15-2004 04:38 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

If you're gonna go the route of holding Rumsfeld responsible for these acts, then you have to hold Bush accountable for them as well.

Oh, and if you're going to do that, you have to hold each one of us accountable as well... we elected him.

So basically, it's really our fault, right?
hush
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20 posted 05-15-2004 04:59 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Ringo- I understand that he's an important man and has a lot on his plate. And I disagree with the people who instantaneously call for him to step down- I think that's sheer partisan politics. However, I don't think your analogy is entirely applicable.

First of all, in a school district, I would think that all schools are equally important- that one shouldn't get the bulk of the attention. However, while I admit to having limited knowledge about the military adnd how it works, isn't Iraq our military priority right now? And as such, shouldn't it get the bulk of the defense department's attention?

'Should the County Director of education be held accountable for that ONE teacher's actions?'

If the actions had been reported, then yes. It's my understanding that a soldier reported the abuses going one way back in January... and the story is just breaking now. Now, whether that report reached Rumsfeld's level and he didn't see it in there with the multitude of other things going on, or whether the information was poorly passed along, is a good question. But I was watching those hearings they held last week, and when John McCain asked him who was in charge of the interrogations, and what type of orders they were giving, and who was doing the actual interrogating... he couldn't answer the question. At a hearing regarding the matter, he fumbled and stalled for time and finally had to admit that he didn't bring the document with him and didn't know the answer to the question. Why didn't he know about that? It just really seems to me that it's an important thing he should have known.
serenity blaze
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21 posted 05-15-2004 05:55 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I totally agree with Christopher's stance that we are all responsible.

That, for me, was the main source of pain during this past week.

The second most painful thing was listening to the rationalizations of friends and strangers.

The only feeling I can accurately pinpoint in my own heart and psyche is shame.

It's as if one of my children had grievously erred.

And that is all I'm going to say about this subject--but with nods and hugs to C. The only thing to do now is to take that responsibility and make damned sure that something like this never happens again.
Brad
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22 posted 05-15-2004 06:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Serenity,

Thanks. I do feel shame. Regardless of the acts of others, we're not supposed to do such things.

Personally, from what little I've been able to gather about the incident, the whole thing strikes me as Dosteyevskian. Specifically, the relationship between Ivan and Smerdyakov in The Brothers Karamazov. I don't recall the exact speech, but Ivan pontificates about the importance of rationalization over and above morality, the sheer necessity and perhaps even justice of the killing of the father, but he never suggests the actual murder of their father.

Smerdyakov, thinking that's exactly what was 'ordered', kills Fyodor, the father.

I think that's exactly what happened here. No specific orders were probably given except perhaps some general points about the need for humiliation (this point isn't speculation, it follows from many of the other photos from Guantanomo Bay among others), the group of men and women involved took the 'initiative', possibly even in a kind of bull session, determined to follow the 'orders' by their own lights. They filled in the specifics, but honestly felt that it was 'right' even if they also felt, perhaps, that it was wrong.

It's no coincidence and no simple PR stunt that the rules of interrogation have been changed.

Opeth
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23 posted 05-15-2004 10:28 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Civilians discussing matter concerning the military without ever serving in it or having a "first-hand" knowledge of how the chain-of-command works cracks me up.

It would be like me, a political science major, discerning which medical procedures are best to use at crucial times or how a doctor should perform his or her duties when the duties performed are intricate to perform.

Clueless... indeed.


serenity blaze
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24 posted 05-15-2004 10:50 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Opeth?

I truly hope that you aren't suggesting that "mere" civilians aren't qualified to interpret the Constitution, or to interpret NATO laws, Geneova Convention????

If that is what you're saying, as a representative of our armed forces, then your reply speaks more a greater concern for the average citizen.

That was more than a little bit arrogant.

This is a very difficult time for all of us.
I've a nephew in Afghanistan. I want him home.

And yanno? I'm selfish. Until he is? I'd like to keep things very very quiet...and trust me, my selfish reticence at this time gives me even more to think about.

laughing here, okay...um.

Nevermind.


 
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