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Passions in Poetry

Does anybody take responsibility anymore?

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Denise
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125 posted 06-01-2004 12:31 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Go back and re-read the State of the Union Address, Raph. The confusion and denials centered around the discredited source, not the British source, which was the source that Bush cited. Bush and Blair both stated from the beginning that they stood behind the British intelligence.

All Saddam had to do was cooperate and show that he had destroyed his known weapons, as per the cease-fire agreement. He decided not to cooperate and to play games for 12 years. That's why we attacked. I think it only reasonable to believe that he had not destroyed them. And I don't believe he did. I believe he destroyed some, hid some and shipped the rest to Syria.

Not all chemicals need 'fuses'.

Iran was a genuine threat to Iraq and its other neighbors at the time. Too bad President Reagan couldn't see into the future to see that Saddam would also become such a serious threat. Such a terrible character flaw on his part.

My city does not have a conservative news outlet of any kind. We have the Philadelphia Daily News and the Philadelphia Inquirer, both owned by the same publisher, Knight-Ridder. Extremely left wing.  I do catch Fox news about once a week, though.

We are still fighting in Afghanistan.

Saudi Arabia may well be next, if their promised cooperation against terrorism turns out to be bogus. It seems they are paying the price for cooperating with us though, judging by the recent Al Qaeda attacks there.

Arafat won't allow stabilization.

Have fun with your upcoming elections!

Aenimal
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126 posted 06-01-2004 08:29 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Are you defending Reagan sending and authorizing the use of chemical weapons on Iran as something noble? Nevermind.


Arafat won't allow stabilization

As opposed to Ariel Sharon? We know Arafat's involvement, it's time to stop turning a blind eye to Israeli encroachment of Palestine as well.
Craw
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127 posted 06-01-2004 08:40 AM       View Profile for Craw   Email Craw   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Craw



.....And their illegally held weapons of mass destruction, and their campaign of state sponsored assassination, and their mealy-mouthed apologies for killing 8 innocent civilians for every one "so-called" gunman. It's the key to the Middle East. People would stop accusing the US and Britain of double standards if we showed a commitment to justice and peace in Palestine.
Aenimal
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128 posted 06-01-2004 09:55 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

exactly Craw
Denise
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129 posted 06-01-2004 09:53 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'm not turning a blind eye, Raph. I never said that Sharon was faultless. Arafat is the one, though, who got up from the table at the last round of peace talks, after having gained every concession from Israel that he asked for and inexplicably walked away.
Denise
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130 posted 06-11-2004 09:18 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Just came across this article. It seems the UN finally agrees that Saddam shipped out his WMDs before, during and after the beginning of the war.
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_1.html

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131 posted 06-11-2004 10:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

interesting that they are called "innocent civilians" when killed by the Israelis but I don't hear a peep of that same voice saying anything about "innocent civilians" when they happen to be Israeli women and children killed by suicide bombers....why is that, I wonder??
Brad
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132 posted 06-12-2004 02:24 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18919

quote:
In order to justify torture, these memos declare that the president is bound by neither U.S. law nor international treaties. We have put ourselves on the same moral level as Saddam Hussein, the only difference being quantity. Quite literally, the president may as well wear a crown forget that "no man is above the law" jazz. We used to talk about "the imperial presidency" under Nixon, but this is the real thing.


The Pentagon's legal staff concurred in this incredible conclusion. In a report printed by The Wall Street Journal, "Bush administration lawyers contended last year that the president wasn't bound by laws prohibiting torture and that government agents who might torture prisoners at his direction couldn't be prosecuted by the Justice Department. ...


Molly Ivins
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133 posted 06-12-2004 05:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Brad, all I can say is....spare me!

I, and a good deal of American people, can't believe the bandwagon that has been brought out with reference to this subject. Was the actions of the soldiers wrong? Yes, of course, but the conclusions and amount of balderdash being weaned out of it by the media and people who quote the media is insane. Our constitution is in shambles because of the abuse of prisoners? Give me a break, please. Molly Ivins...you want to discuss Molly Ivins? Let's see what she's written....

Any time that the president claims credit for or praises some government program, it is an almost-certain kiss of death. Budget cuts follow.
( By Molly Ivins, Creators Syndicate, 06/10/2004 04:01 AM CDT)  

'Recovery' is a fiction of this administration. For real people, life is harder and a lot less fair.
( By Molly Ivins, Creators Syndicate, 06/03/2004 04:01 AM CDT

Someone left the 'cakewalk' in the rain
We are a practical people, so let's cut our losses, go get al Qaeda and leave Iraq to international authorities.
( By Molly Ivins, Creators Syndicate, 05/20/2004 04:01 AM CDT)
Another day in Fantasyland
President Bush, you recently had an unreassuring news conference. What are you going to do next?
( By Molly Ivins, Creators Syndicate, 04/25/2004 04:01 AM CDT)

Watch the birdie keel over
In the current administration, even the fowls of the air have a price to pay on behalf of America.
( By Molly Ivins, Creators Syndicate, 04/01/2004 05:01 AM CDT)

This is the authority you are quoting as if she's saying something unbiased and factual that we should take into consideration?? She is a radical who has NEVER said anything positive about the administration and misses no opportunity to knock it.

To elevate the prisoner abuse to the level it is - the destruction of the constitution, the fall of democracy, the end of US importance in the free world - is utter nonsense. It happened. It shouldn't have. The constitution still lives. Put the whip away. The horse is dead.

To show the utter lunacy of it, what about the officer who scared the terrorist into giving information which saved a planned attack on his men? Remember that one from a few months ago? He knew the terrorist had information that a band was going to make a surprise attack the next day. He told the little fellow he was going to die if he didn't spill the beans and fired a shot over his head for effect. Beans were spilled and the attack was thwarted, saving soldier lives. SO what happened? The officer was relieved of duty. He was written up for having used excessive force to obtain information. He was disciplined. Members of Congress applauded his actions and stood by him but you know what? His military career is over. It's part of his record and he is finished. The inmates are indeed running the asylum.

So keep beating the dead horse if you wish and give it ten times the importance it deserves and quote left-wing radicals as authoritative experts if you want...but there are actually a large group of decent Americans - and non-Americans - who see it as it really is, which is NOT the greatest disgrace in the history of warfare but just a sad event which happened and shouldn't have.
Brad
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134 posted 06-12-2004 08:29 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

When have I ever used the argument from authority? On at least two occasions, I've disclaimed exactly that tactic so whose beating a dead horse? I like Molly Ivins, you don't.

The difference between us isn't that we have different authoritative experts, I make no such claim; the difference is that I want people to read more, you want them to read less.

Glad you posted those sound bites, but your last argument is still one of justification, and it doesn't explain why at least six people have died under dubious circumstances. It doesn't explain why Ashcroft avoided producing the memos.

By all means, post counter articles and opinions, in none of this, am I shooting for the last word or a knockdown argument -- I don't know what it would be -- but let's not pretend that saving soldiers' lives or that this is just the way it is. That's not a reason, that's an excuse. From there, we're just a hop, skip, and a jump (HUH?) to Andy Siphowitz.

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135 posted 06-12-2004 10:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Saving soldiers' lives is not a reason but an excuse??? I consider that to be quite an incredible statement, Brad. Perhaps he should have let the attack occur in order not to frighten the terrorist who was a part of the plan to kill his soldiers. Yes, scaring someone is definitely cruel and unusual punishment, I suppose. The man could have had a bowel movement. The poor fellow could have developed a complex over it...could have made his hands shake so much he wouldn't be able to make bombs or fire at nasty Americans.

You, and many others, may believe that two people doing the same action are equally guilty. Frankly, I don't. I believe that reasoning and motives come into play. Criminals definitely prefer it your way. They've been laughing at that concept for a long time. Saving soldiers' lives an excuse? If one of the soldiers had been a son of yours, I'm sure you would have been happy for that "excuse".

As far as reading less is concerned, no, I would prefer that people read more factual information unbiasedly presented, if it exists anywhere. To say "look at this" while presenting views of radicals and fanatics serves no purpose. You present her - I present Rush Limbaugh. What purpose is served? Nada. I'm certainly not going to present any counter-views simply because I don't consider it important enough to keep milking. For those hungry to find any morsel available to show disfavor with the administration, it will certainly continue to be carried on and squeezed for all it's not worth. As I said in my previous statement...spare me!

When you referred to "dubious circumstances", are you sure your mind wasn't thinking "dubya's circumstances"?
Brad
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136 posted 06-12-2004 10:36 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

No, no, you're shifting the point.

The fact that it can help American soldiers, give officials the right to order violations of the eighth amendment?

Does it allow officials the right to waffle in technicalities in order to avoid the Geneva Accords?

Who is above the law?
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137 posted 06-12-2004 11:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Mule muffins!!

It all depends how you define the 8th amendment, I suppose? Does the 8th amendment say you can't scare anyone, trick them into thinking they are in danger? I think not. Had the officer begun cutting off fingers or body parts or buried the terrorist alive with a rabid rodent, I would agree.....but scaring him? Bluffing him? That was not worth the lives of fellow soldiers? Surely you can't think that, Brad. If a businessman says "We may not be able to give you our business unless you drop your prices (when he is intending to give you the business in any case), is that a violation of your 8th amendment rights?

Saddam Hussein killed millions, maimed millions, imprisoned and tortured millions and we have some idiot like Ted Kennedy saying we are as bad as Hussein because underwear were put on a prisoner's head. He claims the prison is no different than it was in Hussein's day, just under different management. Has there ever been a bigger idiot in the world than Ted Kennedy?

The rules of the Geneva COnvention may have been bruised but they still stand. They are rules that only we follow anyway, unless you feel they were observed at the Hanoi Hilton, in Cambodia, Laos, Bataan, Japan...the list goes on.

We see American bodies being dragged through the streets through crowds of chanting groups and we say, "We are no better. We made an Iraqi terrorist stand naked in front of a female soldier. I say - get a life.

The amendments are well, Brad, and taking an event, even one so distasteful, and pretending that the constitution is in shambles is silly.

Criminals scream foul if we don't follow the rules they have never followed...and they keep winning.

Think of everything that has happened in Iraq - the good, the bad and the ugly. Look at what is getting the most attention - improper treatment of prisoners. It defies belief. Think the constitution is getting battered if you will. It's simply a feeding frenzy of headline-seeking reporters clever enough to bring people who should know better along for the ride...
Ron
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138 posted 06-12-2004 11:59 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Does the 8th amendment say you can't scare anyone, trick them into thinking they are in danger?

quote:
The officer was relieved of duty. He was written up for having used excessive force to obtain information. He was disciplined.

Clearly, the officer's superiors felt the coercion was wrong, Mike. You know something they didn't?

quote:
Criminals scream foul if we don't follow the rules they have never followed...and they keep winning.

So you would prefer anarchy? No one follows the rule and the last man standing wins?

Americans need to get their priorities straight again. If the only thing we are fighting for is survival, whether in the desert or in our own streets, then tens of thousands of lives have been wasted in the past 250 years. You can put a thousand criminals in jail, Mike, and if it costs one innocent his freedom because you didn't want to follow the rules, then the price will have been too high. This country was founded on the premise that some things are more valuable than life, and has survived because there were men with sufficient courage to match those convictions.

You want to do what's expedient? Expediency is always born of fear and inevitably leads only to defeat. How about we start doing the right thing again, instead? And consequences be damned.
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139 posted 06-13-2004 12:19 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, Ron,I don't know anything they didn't....but, apparently, members of Congress did since they awarded the officer a medal for his actions and called him a hero, despite his superiors writing him up.

Again, I repeat that the comments are overkill. The tens of thousands of lives over 250 years have not been made in vain. The country and what it was created to stand for has not fallen. The constitution is not in shambles. To come up with such comparisons as those and ones made by others, along with politicians and members of the press with regards to those actions in Iraq I still, and will always continue to find, mind-boggling. Make it monumental if you will. I am obviously too simplistic to do so.

Goodnight...
Ron
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140 posted 06-13-2004 09:03 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Would it be fair, Mike, to characterize the event as just a "little" adultery" Nothing that would actually ruin the marriage or the years of hard work building trust as long as everyone kept their heads and didn't turn it into something, uh what was the word, monumental?

I'm actually far less concerned with any one event than with people's attitudes. Your implication that the rules of fairness and justice no longer work is a common one, born of fear and frustration, and while one man's opinion is hardly monumental, it is perhaps a harbinger of the monumental.

When your hand is cut with a dirty knife, it's not wise to wait until the whole arm is riddled with gangrene before considering treatment. Monumental probably isn't something we should wait to see.
Denise
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141 posted 06-13-2004 09:38 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Michael, there are no 'innocent civilians' when Israelis or Americans die because, according to some, the Israelis and Americans are only getting what they deserve. Victim status is reserved only for those who perpetrate terrorism (in the name of political disenfranchisement and because  our soldiers 'desecrated' Islam by being in Saudi Arabia, according to OBL), and for unintended civilian casualities in a war zone, not for intentional civilian massacres. Double-standard thinking...sort of like chemicals in Saddam's hands were not  weapons, but in Reagan's hands they were.

The liberal left makes mountains out of mole hills because they are desperate and grasping at straws. Muslims can dance in the streets and give out candy when Israeli and American civilians are killed and nary a word is said about it, let alone any display of moral outrage. But let a few soldiers humiliate some terrorist prisoners and the moral outrage hits deafening decibles, despite the fact that the soldiers were being disciplined for it before the news hit the airwaves because we are a nation that has regard for the dignity of all humanity.

How many people have heard that U.S. troops are putting themselves in danger when under enemy fire in an attempt to limit civilian casualities, by not returning fire when being fired upon if civilians are known to be close by? That hasn't gotten any airtime in our 'conservative press', has it? Of course not.

Ted Kennedy is surreal. I can't believe the things coming out of his mouth. He has to be about the most outrageous person in Congress, although most of the Democratic leadership is not far behind him.

I could almost wish a Democrat would be elected just to see an end to the unprecedented non-stop whining and hate-mongering that has been going on since Bush was elected (maybe that's their game plan, be as annoying as possible in an attempt to get their own way, just like a two-year old?)

It will be interesting to see the impact of the news that the U.N. now agrees with the U.S. that there were WMD's being shipped out of Iraq by Saddam before, during, and after the war. I'm betting that there will be only silence on the issue from the left.

Ron, as in my reply to Michael above, we were handling the prisoner abuse situation prior to it hitting the airwaves because we are a principled nation that has regard for the dignity of all humanity. I don't see that Michael or anyone else here has defended the soldiers actions, just stating that it is being overblown by the left and the media (there's an oxymoron!) for political purposes. If it were not being handled already by the military and there was an attempted cover-up, that would be a different story entirely.  
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142 posted 06-13-2004 12:22 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

You seem to be saying, Denise, that doing what's right isn't right unless accolades are given in return?

I certainly share your frustration with people who see only what they want to see and ignore everything contrary to their own preconceptions. I share your frustration with unbalanced reporting that paints everything in shades of black and white. But I fail to see how mimicking those who cause the frustration does anything except further the frustration. Nary a word was said about Muslims dancing in the streets? Makes you wonder how you and I heard about them then, doesn't it?

To very freely paraphrase Mathew 7:2-5, if we spend a little less time worrying about what others have done wrong and a little more about what we can do that is right, there's a good chance we'll all be able to see a bit more clearly.
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143 posted 06-13-2004 02:37 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (06-13-2004 09:53 PM).]

Denise
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144 posted 06-13-2004 06:26 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

No, Ron, not looking for accolades at all for doing what is right, we aim to do what is right regardless, nor am I advocating mimicking the wrong that has been done to us. Just looking for things to be kept in perspective. Report the good and the bad, not just the bad.

I meant nary a word from the Muslim world or from the leftists. I saw the dancing in the streets on Fox News...the only place I saw it...and also read about the dancing and giving out candy whenever an Israeli or American is killed by terrorists on WorldNetDaily...two news outlets out of how many in the world? And I'm still waiting to hear any moral outrage over it, even just a fraction of what has been voiced over Abu Ghraib, from the Muslim world at large, but particularly from our very own leftists here at home, because having been raised in a country that values human rights and dignity and freedom, they have less excuse for their ignorance and moral confusion.

We don't have to worry about the wrongs already done to us, but we sure better be ever vigilent about the future schemes against us that are being planned even as we speak. We can't let our guard down. We still have to protect ourselves until the terrorists begin seeing more clearly at least.

And I'm still waiting for the left to retract their "Bush lied about WMDs" now that the U.N. issued their statement agreeing that they were there and that Saddam did ship them to other countries before, during and after the start of the war. But just as with the other issues, there's only silence.


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145 posted 06-13-2004 09:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, I made no implication that rules of fairness do not work. I have no idea where you come up with that one. Do they ALWAYS work? Of course not but nothing in my comments stated that I believe all rules should be abolished and "last man standing" should be the only law of the land. I'm afraid that is your personal embellishments of my words. Perhaps if you were in a room with a man who had buried your daughter alive you would say, "I'm sorry, daughter, but I must respect this man's 8th amendment rights and not mistreat him to find out where you are and save your life." There are always exceptions, Ron. This doesn't address my point, however, which was that firing a gun over a man's head to scare him does not constitute conduct so dastardly it unravels the thread of American decency..

Denise, don't hold your breath. As I demonstrated in my "It's all about the oil!" query, there won't be any comments coming forth...such is life.
Brad
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146 posted 06-13-2004 10:25 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Frankly, Mike and Denise, you keep missing the point.

1. I think it's disgusting when Muslims or anybody dance for joy over the death of innocent civilians or anybody.

Okay?

To bring that up is like a wife beater saying, "Yeah, I only beat my wife seven times, he's beaten his wife 21 times. I'm not so bad."

2. The question isn't what you would do or I would do in extreme circumstances, but whether or not the administration actively went against the constitution. I don't mean interpret it differently, I mean willfully abrogated the 8th amendment.  My first post in this thread assumed the incident to be an isolated case, more and more evidence points to the fact that it is not.

Is it systematic? Is it policy? These are the questions that are being asked now.

If it is systematic, what would your response be to that?

As far as WMD's go, don't you think your grasping for straws? No one, as far as I know, denied that there weren't WMD's -- we gave them to Saddam, remember? Was it a valid justification for going to war? Many in the administration have already stated that they were misled by faulty intelligence.

Bush points to buses.

3. I still think getting rid of Saddam was a good idea so as far as the oil thing goes, its hard to defend a position I never held. The complaint I had then and still have now is the way this administration went about doing the right thing. The interesting thing is that the UN, suddenly, seems to have been accorded a new found respect.

Why in the world do you want us to listen to them now, Denise?

Moral confusion or short memories?
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147 posted 06-13-2004 11:32 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Originally, I was going to sit back and not get involved in this part of the discussion... I WAS going to just let it go by and hope it eventually went away, however there is a question taht has been nagging at me since this thing about the 8th Amendment came up, and the harsh treatment given to terrorists while they were being questioned:

What actually went on???? And is what everyone thinks happened, and says they heard, or were told, or saw on TV actually what happened???

Do I agree with tghe things that were done?? Not entirely. Do I think innocent people were unfairly treated?? Probably... More than likely. Do I think that people who are NOT living in the United States, and who are NOT Americans being incarcerated by Americans be afforded the protection teh AMERICAN Constitution affords AMERICANS??? Yeah, right.

According to the television series M*A*S*H (and Col. Henry Blake) there are 2 laws of war: 1) Young men die... 2) Doctors can't change rule # 1. Well, I submit that there are a few other "rules" that people seem to be either forgetting, or are ignoring.

1) There are no niceties on a battlefield.
2) When enemy personnel (or suspected enemy) are captured, they get questioned.
3) If they are not cooperative, and there are American lives in the balance, or it is in the heat of a combat environment, no one gets Marandized, and the on-scene interrogators might not have the luxury of waiting the prisoners out.

Do I feel that the prisoners who were physically abused, severely injured or killed were mistreated... yes. Do I think American lives were spared by keeping the prisoners awake for more than 24 hours, or by standing  for hours, or by scaring them with (mostly) idle threats? Absolutely.

Actually, I have one further question... Let's bring that situation here to the US....
(The camera fades in on an interrogation room in an inner city police department. We see two police officers in their freshly starched shirts, and a prisoner who is very tired, needing a shave, and is complaining about needing a drink of water. He has been awake for over 24 hours, and has been interrogated for the last 16 of those hours. The police officers have just come on duty 15 minutes ago)

Police Officer 1: (screaming) Admit it... you planted the bomb that killed all 17 of those cops. YOU did it... WHY??? WHY???

Accused: (wearlily) Could I please just have a glass of water?

(Police officer 2 places a glass of water just out of reach)

Police Officer 1: Tell us where you planted the other bomb, and who is helping you out, and we'll let you have the drink. No Problem.

Police Officer 2: (Unhooking his holster) Let's just shoot the (choose your own) right now. What do we care?

Accused: OK, OK... I'll tell you...

The bomb was found... in the State Police barracks, and it was set to go of during shift change. All of the conspirators were arrested, and the cops lived to arrest another day...
Why is no one on here complaining about THAT???

Just a question.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

Brad
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148 posted 06-14-2004 12:30 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38894-2004Jun13.html

So the argument is this:


We don't do these sorts of things and they deserved it anyway.
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149 posted 06-14-2004 01:29 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, Brad, the argument is that we are simply evil people. Our constitution is a sham and we pretend to do good things to cover up the fact that we do bad things. We do not deserve the same respect granted to decent people. We enjoy berating and torturing others under the guise of doing good. Our country should be banned from the history books and every American should be forced to flog himself each morning before breakfast. We are as bad as everyone says we are. People have the right to despise us. We are indeed the "EVIL EMPIRE".

Since you use the word "we" when referring to the actions committed by them I must suppose you are referring to all of us. If not, perhaps you would have to acknowledge that just maybe it was "them" and not necessarily "us" and put it into a little more proper perspective.
 
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